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The power of Neurofeedback

theta alpha gamma synchrony neurofeedback bipolar training ultralow frequency self-regulation

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#91 MRBIOFEEDBACK

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 02:56 PM

I find this thread extremely interesting,

 

On Biofeedback:

 

I have been experimenting with brain hardware due to development of my own website, however having played with some biohardware, i've found the results to be a little bit disappointing for me so far. I haven't tried tagsync neurofeedback so far or advance brain entrainment, but the other things i've tried and read haven't been that beneficial or encouraging.

 

My interest is more with productivity rather than ascendency per say, but having a plenthora experiences with medications and drugs - I just don't have high hopes for it at the moment, which I did initially. In terms of inspiration and understanding, dropping a psychedelic once or twice in your life, radically changes your thoughts on your own perception. In terms of productivity I fail to see how this would generate more energy vs a can of redbull. I am still working on understanding it, there is a lot of material to cover.

 

Also reviewing literature there are a fews studies where they showed neurofeedback had essentially had no effects, even on ADD subjects, which neurofeedback is claimed to have the largest effect. Also this idea of alpha, beta and theta etc has also been questioned, and are based on some very old ideas of how the brain works. Its actually kind of now questionable whether the brain even works in this way, which would explain why binaural beats largely seem to fail to inccur much state change, when it should theoretically.

 

From the ideas I have been presented so far on various websites, I have good reason to sort of suspect current marketers/clinical centers veer towards pseudo-science. (I am not smart enough to conclude though).

 

I think a good barometer for me is - does the said treatment work better than a cup of coffee?

 

As for coherence training and biofeedback hardware/software etc. I find it "okay" to bridge the time gaps between supplements/medications, but they definetely don't seem to be on the same calibre, which is surprising given the effects manual meditation actually has without hardware support. Probably its just that nobody has nailed it in regards to creating a really useful effect yet, for everything there are literally hundreds of different protocols, with no seeming concensus on what works and what doesn't.

 

Also when we look at athletes or superb neurotypicals, we are more likely to be looking at the result of good genetic expression which confounds the result. To me optimising great genetics is a very different thing to fixing a dysfunctional one.

 

I think Tagsync may be a much more innovative protocol, I am really liking what I am reading (in terms of the technical breakdown), but only with tagsync.

 

 

First of all, because generalizing research you haven't even quoted or mentioned, its really just a blank statement with no scientific credence. To say that means that clinicians worldwide are less knowledgeable than you and you have looked at the existing research with an enlightened eye that no one else has and therefore found the truth that Biofeedback doesn't work. The point here is that if you are going to start insulting the work of Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Peak Performance Experts (Sports Psychologists which get paid extraneous amounts of money for improving athletic performance in Olympians, Professional Sports team, etc..by optimizing mindset through biofeedback/neurofeedback), then at least make some scientific arguments and we can take it from there. You also need to learn about the field to make an extensive analysis of the studies, not just read a bottom line and get at some conclusions. 

 

Also, just last month a study on the use of NFB for ADHD was published. Here is an editorial on it. You can find details of his view on NFB in pubmed . The problem with NFB studies is there is so much heterogeneity in the treatment used, the blinding, the sham/control protocol, that its hardly scientific to take a meta-analysis for instance and bundle them all into the same group. 

 

You say that for you a good barometer is does it work better than a cup of coffee? Well that's a pretty poor barometer to begin with. Coffee does little to improve significantly attention scores in IVA/TOVA tests so I wouldn't use it as a barometer. If you are talking about your subjective awakening that you get from the cAMP overload your brain gets well thats a different matter altogether. Its also interesting that you mentioned meditation in that same post as much of the research on one type of biofeedback stems directly from that. The optimal breathing range to obtain parasympathetic activation from Heart Rate Variability training was actually gotten to by looking at the breath pacing of monks achieving very very very deep meditative states. That's where a lot of that comes from. Dr Richard Gevirtz is one of the experts of the field so you may want to look into it and use it before you judge. Its easy to use, free for the most part and can get great results. In fact meditating without achieving that breathing pace, is not fully meditating at all. 

 

One thing is for sure, NFB has been studied for decades. To look at the proper use of NFB for ADHD, you'd have to start by working at the work of Dr Joel Lubar. Then the clinical aspects extend with the work of Dr Thatcher in Z-Score normalized training. There are a whole host of other protocols in between and it gets pretty complicated from there so i'll leave it at that for now. Read my previous post on HRV, apply & reply. 



#92 OpaqueMind

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 02:57 PM

Guys, please stop spreading the misinformation that there is no way to safely and effectively modulate your brainwaves with neurofeedback without a licensed professional.

 

You mention certain 'standard protocols', and that they work only to a 'certain extent', by these I assume you mean single channel protocols like SMR, peak alpha etc. It is true, these have limited (but real) efficacy in general, though they certainly have their place. Since you keep claiming that there are no universal neurofeedback protocols I guess that you aren't familiar with several fairly recent developments in the field, specifically Theta-Alpha-Gamma synchrony neurofeedback and Infra-low frequency neurofeedback. Each of these works to restore and optimally develop brainwave dynamics which are universally found in healthy brains. We can therefore effectively and safely train them without reference to any kind of EEG analysis.



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#93 MRBIOFEEDBACK

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 03:09 PM

Guys, please stop spreading the misinformation that there is no way to safely and effectively modulate your brainwaves with neurofeedback without a licensed professional.

 

You mention certain 'standard protocols', and that they work only to a 'certain extent', by these I assume you mean single channel protocols like SMR, peak alpha etc. It is true, these have limited (but real) efficacy in general, though they certainly have their place. Since you keep claiming that there are no universal neurofeedback protocols I guess that you aren't familiar with several fairly recent developments in the field, specifically Theta-Alpha-Gamma synchrony neurofeedback and Infra-low frequency neurofeedback. Each of these works to restore and optimally develop brainwave dynamics which are universally found in healthy brains. We can therefore effectively and safely train them without reference to any kind of EEG analysis.

 

Thank you for at least giving some backup on NFB. Btw, I challenge anyone here to show me that uptraining SMR will not result in an increase of SMR/theta ratio in >15 sessions. hardly believable. If anyone thinks that NFB does nothing, well try uptraining hibetas in the frontal cortex for a significant period of time and tell me how you feel. You won't be happy when your brain is going in to overdrive thinking itself into OCD. 

 

Yes @opaquemind, SMR, ALPHA/THETA/ Peak Alpha Frequency is what I mean. However, every brain is different. Every brain needs to be analyzed at every spot to assess teh current state of activity and how it correlates with the symptoms perceived clinically, or the improved performance/focus that is required for athletes. Whatever the case, an expert can certainly analyze the data better and make more leeway into progress than a standard protocol can by using the correct sites and frequencies that need to be modified.

 

Regarding TAGSync I  have looked into briefly that giant thread of yours. You can train phase and coherence in bandwidths if you want to on any two sites and brainwaves. However, I have to look into the aspects of what makes TAGSync so special. I haven't had the time to do that so I will not comment further on it. I will say this, as someone involved in the field and who has seen clinicians and talked to them then TAGSync has never really been discussed. The first I heard of it was here which made it surprising to me that I wasn't aware of something in the field. That's especially true since the largest international annual conference for applied Neurofeedback Research made no mention of it. Regardless, I will look into it soon enough. 



#94 OpaqueMind

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 03:45 PM

Haha yeah that thread has gotten pretty mammoth hasn't it?! Must be all that TAGsync we've been doing, it makes our minds run like rabid rabbits (though hopefully with less insanity)  :laugh:

 

It is interesting how TAGsync has failed to percolate through the field in general, given it's profound efficacy. This is probably much to do with the fact that it violates the central dogma which underlies pretty much every training protocol yet devised up to this point; that for neurofeedback to be effective (and profoundly so) it must be guided by some kind of EEG analysis and customised to the individual. Another reason may be that a relatively unknown genius in the field has come along and for the first time developed a neurofeedback protocol based on the available neuroscience literature describing the neural underpinnings of optimal functionality in peak performers and self-actualised individuals, a methodology which is again in stark contrast to the historical method of creation of all other protocols so far devised. Possibly there is also the subconscious dissonance for nfb practitioners of accepting that there is a form of neurofeedback which works a) more powerfully than the one's they're using now and b) don't require their services to enact, therefore essentially obsoleting them. Whatever the reasons, it is what it is, and dogmatists will be dogmatists, until they die (or until they get their neural networks fractalized and flexibilized by TAGsync  :-D).

 

However, every brain is different.

 

This is true, however what's interesting is that there are broad-scale network dynamical features which reflect the optimal state of brain organisation and which are reflected in the functional connectivity patters of the brains of peak performers, master meditators and otherwise highly developed individuals. TAGsync trains these very patterns, and since they are reflected universally in these highly realised people across culture, gender or other variable factors, we know that they do not depend on such variable parameters. There are many ways for a system to be chaotic and disordered, but for it to express order in the highest degree there is a tight bound of parameters within which it must operate.

 

Every brain needs to be analyzed at every spot to assess teh current state of activity and how it correlates with the symptoms perceived clinically, or the improved performance/focus that is required for athletes.

 

Due to the above, this is no longer true. The brain has the ability to optimally self-organise when given the tools to communicate with itself properly, hence why Dailey noted highly reduced z-scores of 'aberrant' EEG patterns across a variety of clients with a variety of mental dysfunctions/neural organisation problems while using TAGsync.

 

 Whatever the case, an expert can certainly analyze the data better and make more leeway into progress than a standard protocol can by using the correct sites and frequencies that need to be modified.

 

Because of the above, this no longer applies. I think a useful analogy for demonstrating the profound self-reorganising capacities of the brain is meditation, which is known to remediate and in many cases destroy (depending on dedication to the practice) a significant number of psychological problems of neurodynamical origin. Simply resting in silence and focusing our awareness we can reorganise brain dynamics towards a more balanced integration of processes, both in the short and long-term. Over time, with dedication, we can progressively refine our level of consciousness, to the point where profound states of bliss, equanimity, ego dissolution and refined perception are experienced. That these profound developments come from simply resting the mind shows the incredible capacities of the brain to self-organise optimally when given the tools.


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#95 Major Legend

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 05:00 PM

 

 

First of all, because generalizing research you haven't even quoted or mentioned, its really just a blank statement with no scientific credence. To say that means that clinicians worldwide are less knowledgeable than you and you have looked at the existing research with an enlightened eye that no one else has and therefore found the truth that Biofeedback doesn't work. The point here is that if you are going to start insulting the work of Psychiatrists, Psychologists, Peak Performance Experts (Sports Psychologists which get paid extraneous amounts of money for improving athletic performance in Olympians, Professional Sports team, etc..by optimizing mindset through biofeedback/neurofeedback), then at least make some scientific arguments and we can take it from there. You also need to learn about the field to make an extensive analysis of the studies, not just read a bottom line and get at some conclusions. ...

 

One thing is for sure, NFB has been studied for decades. To look at the proper use of NFB for ADHD, you'd have to start by working at the work of Dr Joel Lubar. Then the clinical aspects extend with the work of Dr Thatcher in Z-Score normalized training. There are a whole host of other protocols in between and it gets pretty complicated from there so i'll leave it at that for now. Read my previous post on HRV, apply & reply. 

 

 

@Mrbiofeedback. Yeah. I've been on these forums for a while, I've gotten used to just writing what's in my head, i've always posted musings and anecdotal experience and very observational comments, I rarely use scientific citations because I am not a scientist, however I did use to write disclaimers regarding my posts being an opinion, I think I should make sure I make that clear. I make numerous mentions of not being of scientific mind. 

 

One of the big regrets I've had is not having any scientific education, however I do like to remain true to my own identity - and thats to an extent offering a very subjective, my own experiential view on the topic, hence often my posts are deeply opinionated, and often I don't feel pressured to make citations due to the conversational nature of forums. 

 

Here are a bunch of links from http://www.psycholog...dback-therapy-0

 

Anyways I've stated on many occasions i'm not very bright, you can probably tell from my writing style that precision, high functioning intelligence and executive function are not the three words to describe my content and grammar ... lol even I am somewhat annoyed with myself. If only I was like a LASER. Well today isn't the best day either as I haven't had any sleep due to work.

 

 

 

A randomized placebo-controlled trial of electroencephalographic (EEG) neurofeedback in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.
Abstract

OBJECTIVE: A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study was designed to assess the efficacy and safety of electroencephalographic (EEG) neurofeedback in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The study started in August 2008 and ended in July 2012 and was conducted at Karakter Child and Adolescent Psychiatry University Centre in Nijmegen, The Netherlands.

CONCLUSION: EEG neurofeedback was not superior to placebo neurofeedback in improving ADHD symptoms in children with ADHD.

TRIAL REGISTRATION: ClinicalTrials.gov identifier: NCT00723684.

 

 

 

"the plethora of claims regarding the use of neurofeedback training to enhance performance is matched only by the paucity of research showing a clear effect." - David Vernon 2005

 

Update September 2013A new randomised, double-blind placebo-controlled trial has just reported that neurofeedback therapy for children with ADHD was no more effective than placebo.

Update November 2013A new study has demonstrated the viability of using "sham" random neurofeedback, to allow for fully blinded trials looking at the use of neurofeedback therapy for children with ADHD. Participants could not tell if they were receiving genuine neurofeedback or sham neurofeedback. In this study both conditions led to equal improvements in the participants. 

A new authoritative meta-analysis and systematic review of non-pharmacological treatments for ADHD has concluded that "Better evidence for efficacy from blinded assessments is required" before neurofeedback (and other interventions including cogntive training) can be recommeded as a treatment for core ADHD symptoms. 

Update Jan 2014. I've been alerted to a new double blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study looking at the effects of neurofeedback therapy on neurocognitive functioning in children with ADHD. No effect of treatment was found on any cognitive measures including attention and workingmemory. The paper also included a systematic review of previous controlled studies. "Overall, the existing literature and this study fail to support any benefit of neurofeedback on neurocognitive functioning in ADHD," the researchers conclude. 

 

 

I have actually been doing some very unscientific research myself, health is big business. To me there are studies for everything to work in some research. I am interested in anecdotal experiences, and considering the amount of clinics, the immense cost of clinical neural feedback . the years of "licensed training", endorsements by psychologists and so on, I don't find much information anecdotally, to me this isn't a great sign. People rave about coffee, rave about acupuncture even, despite how widespread neurofeedback is, nobody is making any signs of "breakthrough".

 

I spoke to various equipment/clinic companies and "open minded" is definitely the furthest impression I had of them , it feels like the whole industry is stuck in the 1990s, thats why pocket neurobics and tagsync is so interesting. Pocket neurobics is trying to make it all cheaper and accessible. 

 

Also if you read my post properly, you will notice I was musing my own experience/opnions so far - and that I didn't had high hopes, and that i still need to do alot more research before making conclusions. Also I did lastly note that I felt that optimising athletes for performance is probably quite different from trying to fix a dysfunctional mind/body. 

 

Granted I am unscientific, but I was not as arrogant as you seemed to have framed me...

 

I promise that I will look into the authors you have quoted.

 

 

@opaquemind

 

I'm glad things are working so well for you! I am interested mainly in combatting ADHD and fatigue, and providing a better signal to noise ratio in my brain, anecdotally have you experienced any notable increase in energy, productivity? What has changed for you so far perception wise? You sound like you are on megadose piracetam all the time...


Edited by Major Legend, 02 November 2014 - 05:05 PM.


#96 neuralis

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Posted 02 November 2014 - 06:27 PM


NFB is really intriguing, since modern day pharms really can't help me. Its essential to analyze your EEG for a specific program to work with. Messing with your brainwaves blindly sounds dangerous and could possibly do more harm than good.
Considering that the treatment I really need is still years away, maybe the price is not too high, if NFB is really able to improve my life quality. Need to do some calculations....


Yes. NFB can really help and like you say, it can be dangerous in terms of side-effects to blindly mess with your brainwaves. Of course there are many standard protocols that have been studied that take the guesswork out of it for you, but even then ONLY TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. There is a lot of information on BIOFEEDBACK out there. The first place to start is Heart Rate Variability. Its actually the cheapest of all biofeedback to practice. You don't really need anything. You can find a breathing pacer online and set it to 6-8 breaths per minute. Do it for 20 minutes a day if you can. Of course you can only really see the physiological changes with the feedback equipment (Respiration sensor and Blood Volume Pulse Monitor) but if you do the 6-8 breaths per minute correctly (inhale, exhale timings and all), you should feel the changes pretty rapidly. Cardiovascular function will improve over time as will recruitment of the parasympathetic nervous system over chronic sympathetic activation (i.e. less stress!).

Do that and let me know how its going. Its free!

Wow what a coincidence, I just finished my first meditation session over a year.. I wont go into much detail, but it was the weirdest meditation session I've ever had.. I had a really dark episode and I subconsciously took a lotus position and started meditating.. Never have had it happen before. I came out of it, came online and saw your post. I'm stunned, something like this was exactly what I needed. And the timing couldn't be better.
Thanks to the nature of my work the next 2 months of my life will be very very routine. Every day will be almost the same.. I can easily make space for a 20 minute meditation session every day.
I think I'll challenge myself to meditate every day during this period. I already challenged myself to avoid all animal protein for the period. This one is going good, already 7 days in and currently feeling no desire whatsoever for any animal product.

So thanks for making that post, I'll let you know how it goes. :)

#97 OpaqueMind

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 12:40 PM

I'm glad things are working so well for you! I am interested mainly in combatting ADHD and fatigue, and providing a better signal to noise ratio in my brain, anecdotally have you experienced any notable increase in energy, productivity? What has changed for you so far perception wise? You sound like you are on megadose piracetam all the time...

 

Thanks man  :) In terms of energy and productivity increase, most definitely I have noticed both of these. I have a constant abundance of both mental and physical energy, which manifests in a feeling of lightness and a speed of thought and perception which feels almost transcendent when its operating at its highest level, such as when I've been thinking a lot about a certain subject and all the pieces rush into their places and re-frame the gestalt in a more inclusive way.

 

I find myself significantly more enraptured by intricate patterns in my senses... the enhancement of perceptions is not unlike a threshold dose of psychedelic, and I assume, as I'm still developing through neurofeedback, that there is more to come in this (and all other) department/s. Music that was previously found great takes on a whole new dimension of depth, immersion and emotionality. One of my favourite things to do now is put on some sweet tunes and meditatively flow with them... last night I had a particularly profound experience doing this and felt like I had some sort of deep emotional catharsis. I cried with bliss at the apex of the song and it felt like my whole body was made of vibrating light.



#98 umop 3pisdn

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 10:15 PM

Sorry for dropping out of the discussion. I'm going to respond to those who quoted me once my workload dies down, but I just wanted to note some observations I've been having at this early stage.

 

I've been in contact with George from the NorthStar Neurofeedback page, the site where crowstream linked to the entropy designs for Bioexplorer. He does respond to that email address and he recently sold me some of the updated entropy designs for Bioexplorer. Some of the information in the zipped archive is a bit outdated and he told me I could link you guys to some videos where he goes into more detail about some of the changes or newer features. Brain Rate is one thing that isn't mentioned at all in the zipped files, it's intended to be a weighted mean frequency that correlates to general CNS arousal kind of like heart rate, etc, only for EEG instead. There's some interesting third party literature on people using Brain Rate for things like Autism, etc. The Mutual Information measure is also updated.

 

https://app.box.com/...5jx5i6m5r3hz1ox

 

They're addressed to me so I think he was trying to anticipate some of the questions I may have had operating them, but I think they'd be helpful to anyone interested in these designs.

 

At this stage I have some observations. One being I don't think the free entropy designs linked to on the Bioexplorer Yahoo! group are the best. It was my first experience with entropy training and it's really strong (a lot stronger than using the narrow inhibit bins I mentioned before for active training), and overall I'd say I liked the effect I got from it, but I think the way the bandpass filters are set up makes it weighted more towards fast/beta activity. I would always feel quite manic after using them (which for me is a prohibitive). I tried adjusting the bandpass filters to increments of 5Hz (20-25Hz, 25-30Hz, and using the spare one 30-35Hz) and it worked a lot better for keeping fast/beta activity in check, and worked better as a 'thought detector' for me as well and was generally a lot more responsive on that basis than it was before. But all things considered I like George's designs a lot more, they have more features and regulatory measures built in (Brain Rate, Dominant Frequency, etc), and they just inspire a lot more general confidence since it's actually something he works with consistently and is still being actively supported. He doesn't charge very much, either.

 

As for this mode of training, I already love it. It's very different from TAGsync, but extremely synergistic (more on that later, but Opaque I think you're on the right track with the signal-noise analogy). I have some observations that, at least in the way I've been training with it, it's essentially what the yogis call "pratyahara" which is arguably the entire basis of all concentrative meditation. Training is basically a practice where you pull back into your mind to a place that's already essentially devoid of thought, notice the subtle 'rumblings' or precursory mental movements that later become thoughts, and dissolve them. It feels like the name "pratyahara" might suggest, that is 'not feeding or not eating', renunciation, pulling back and not nurturing the panoply. I don't care for the term 'objectless' meditation, because all meditation has some object or directed thought, but in this case it's a mental characteristic that's essentially "empty". The thoughts kind of just remain as 'seeds' or potencies with no manifestation stage. The effect is so bizarre and exciting to me, concentrative meditation now actually makes sense to me where it didn't before. It's not really directing your mind forcefully, or watching your breath until you become hypnotized; it's pulling back from mental diversity and just letting the mind settle out completely until it's essentially empty. Duh!

 

The effects from training are very interesting, too. It feels like a form of anti-conditioning. Like I had to do some public speaking recently, and ordinarily I'd be mindfully aware of my anxiety but mainly all that would do would help define the boundaries of the problem, and I'd still have to work around it. In this case it was just suppressed, no apparent 'problem' to speak of. There was no anxiety for my mind to get snagged on. Now I'm sure as is the nature of conditioning, that it will spring up again unless I uproot it at the source, but having that degree of mental freedom from it seems no less instrumental in the grand scheme than the process of "uprooting" via mindfulness/insight.

 

I also did entropy training before a session of TAGsync (30 mins each, same montage) and the effect was frankly amazing. The combination of "mental freedom" and bright awareness seems to be that I basically feel like a kid again, like a really strong "shoshin" effect, and this is just from one session like that. I could try to go into more detail about this particular effect once I have more time and more experience with it (I'm actually experiencing it right now!) but it just feels so unburdened and clear.

 

I'm convinced now that these two modes of training can be reliably considered the two chief components of meditation (mindfulness and concentration) in a very "essentialized" form. Each mode of training seems to operationalize one of them in a rather strong and ostensible way, at least with how I've been using them. It's interesting that they're separate, too, because I think there's benefit to training each in a kind of isolation. Locating the most essential mental quality that the whole process seems to hinge on (emptying the mind for one, and simple "awareness of awareness" for the other) makes for understanding the whole process better, and once that is built into a strong platform you can go about combining them and doing more complex things. I'm not sure you can use neurofeedback to train them at the same time, because the aims seem to compete with each other just enough that they seem like different beasts from where the application of this technology is concerned. It's just as well though, George recommends training entropy up and down, in a 'rocking' fashion. TAGsync should intuitively work well enough as the 'downtrain entropy' segment (since you're uptraining amplitude) if that advice is followed.

 

As for MRBIOFEEDBACK's question is concerned ("why TAGsync?") Well, for most of the time I've been studying this technology my only interest was as an adjunct to meditation. That's still mostly the case, but I have been developing interest in the therapeutic applications as I've grown to see how they apply to me (realizing that I actually was depressed all this time, and that simultaneously TAGsync was working independently to alleviate it). So my confidence in this modality as a therapeutic intervention is mostly a side effect of me pursuing the thing I was really after all this time.

 

However on that track the common form of neurofeedback training always seemed kind of hard to grasp, for me. Not from an operational perspective, but more in a "skill acquisition" way, like what am I gaining from this if I can't "feel" the skill or state change being cultivated. Meditation and Neurofeedback (say TAGsync) then offers a two pronged approach, both introspection and operational, objective measurement. Both can join in a central point where they converge, achieving better extension than either would alone. TAGsync works better for "awareness of awareness" than the other synchrony designs I've used (Itallis' Alpha-Theta synchrony design, in particular). In pure technical application when I look at how the design is made up it seems quite simple in a lot of ways, but in its specific execution or application it carries a very notable distinction for me.

 

 


Edited by umop 3pisdn, 03 November 2014 - 10:50 PM.

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#99 Major Legend

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 06:53 PM

I recently there noticed IS a method to optimally apply biofeedback, I've tried this to much success on myself only and that's being to dynamically callibrate to your mind/bodys default state first, you need to tinker with software to do this. I have found this significantly reduces the time, and willpower meditation requires and the benefits last longer too.

 

STILL reading when I have the time. Despite my writing, I am actually in support of it.

 

I'm currently learning programming and PCB circuits/microchip I/Os , if anyone is interested in this collaboration please get in chat. I have other projects but I am overloaded already so any further endeavour has to be collaboration with like minded people.

 

Some interesting questions to pose for the more "developed" minds here:

 

  • Achieving deeper meditation causes changes to the brain and genetic expression, we know deep meditators are in a certain advanced state similiar to that of low dose pscyhedelics (or a child you can even argue),   I think a lot of bio hacker are looking to increase their output, contribution and abilities. Meditation opens the mind and allows new ideas to flow. I have known that since university, however what I want is speed and relentlessness that elite neurotypicals seem to be blessed with. Does deep meditation really achieve productivity?

^ For example my life long goal is not only to make money and being able to take care of people I love. I would like to make a lasting change to humanity, I would like to alleviate the pain of people suffering, this isn't a dream - I actively persue it, and I see it now as one of my lifes mission. I don't feel being some high minded monk can help me do this.

 

  • The idea behind Tagsync which is a more advanced development of older neurofeedback is based on the idea that the brain has certain natural optimal patterns that we see in all living things and in monks in deep meditation, that we eventually deviate from due to a variety of factors. This is similiar to the advocates of biofeedback, brain entrainment, that when the brain achieves a state of "no noise" it is able to reorganise itself and rewrite bad habits. One of the hardest things in treating psychological issues like anxiety, is the inability to remove repetitive signal patterns long embedded in the brain.

 

However I pose the question - could this be an over simplification? What about structural dysfunctions caused by genetic dysfunction for example? Also two things

 

1) alteration of genetic expression due to environment stress could be a useful adaptation mechanism, especially if these stress factors have long been in our environment and in our pychological evolution. Wouldn't that mean that the "neurofeedback optimal mind" is a resultant of this move away from the "baby/child" state.

 

2) giftedness or rather certain "good" traits might be a result of cognitive mutation itself, such as the prevalence of advanced minds in high functioning autistic people

 

If such things were true, what if restoring "optimal brain function" can also remove these gifts or adaptations.

 

  • Finally, if the assumption behind neurofeedback is that the optimal brain function is indeed optimal for most people, for people who have lifelong mental dysfunction - is it possible their optimal function is already compromised regardless? Or simply if someone has dysfunctional genetics anyways, how does restoring to their baseline help?

 

 

  • Finally what is the link between deep states of meditation and mental health? If these masters are truly ascended beings why aren't they doing the innovation in todays society? You can even argue that the stereotypical succesful elite neurotypical is a complete opposite of all those meditative characteristics .

 

  • Why is sport often used as a barometer? We know many geniuses are clumsy when it comes to motor mind coordination, high noise in the brain is essential for sensitivity, these things do not go with the coherency "in the zone" state required of sports. We also know this because we know sport does not correlate with intellectual giftedness.

Edited by Major Legend, 05 November 2014 - 06:56 PM.

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#100 Strangelove

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 08:26 PM

 

  • Achieving deeper meditation causes changes to the brain and genetic expression, we know deep meditators are in a certain advanced state similiar to that of low dose pscyhedelics (or a child you can even argue),   I think a lot of bio hacker are looking to increase their output, contribution and abilities. Meditation opens the mind and allows new ideas to flow. I have known that since university, however what I want is speed and relentlessness that elite neurotypicals seem to be blessed with. Does deep meditation really achieve productivity?

^ For example my life long goal is not only to make money and being able to take care of people I love. I would like to make a lasting change to humanity, I would like to alleviate the pain of people suffering, this isn't a dream - I actively persue it, and I see it now as one of my lifes mission. I don't feel being some high minded monk can help me do this.

 

 

Thank you for writing this, my thought exactly. My goal is to increase my external output been more creatively proactive first, "internal bliss" comes a close second ;)  There is reseach that optimal brain patterns can be completely different for different individuals... I would not go in detail as it needs a knowledge in personality theory (Jung ) largely unrelated to this thread. Neverteless I want to make a quick point, there are two "Jungian functions" that correspond to what we would describe today as being creative and being insightful. Reading the posts in this thread, I see people experiencing (a huge at a times) increase of what Jung would call "internal intuition" or insight from their use of Tag-sync.

 

According to the research from this practical "Neuroscience of personality" book from his lab in UCLA

http://www.amazon.co...nce personality

 

The optimal brain patterns from people that have a high trait for "introverted intuition" or lets call it here insight (a great example been OpaqueMind posts) have a brain pattern that solves different tasks or perceiving the world, by being in a whole brain "meditative" state that exhibits high amplitude and low frequency. This is probably what Tag-sync favors (?) and this is probably why Major Legend you object to the philosophy and state of the high minded monk?

 

On the opposite, the state of been creative to see posibilities to change the world is what Jung called "external intuition". The EEG pattern is the exact opposite of the state of "meditative insight" a very energetic state of low amplitude and high frequency making the braiwaves flashing all over a brain map, make it look like a "christmas tree" that is possibly a state as far as possible from what we see in meditating monks.

 

From my understanding these two different states of being mostly insightful or being mostly creative are hardwired and as I said they appear exact opposite in a EEG. Meditative cohernce and insight VS creative disorganisation and brainstorming. Major Legend when you say that you are interested in making money, the second state (described as extraverted intuition below) is much more preferable. I am not going to go in much detail why (send a PM if interested for further discussion) I ll just copy/paste a Jungian description of the two states.

 

Introverted Intuition (Ni - Opaque's posts?) deals with understanding how the world works through internal intuitive analysis. Ni relies on gut feelings and intuition about a situation to help them understand. Introverted Intuition does not look at what is seen. Introverted Intuition forms an internal map and framework of how things work. The map is slowly adapted and adjusted over time to allow the user to get a better sense of the “big picture of things” and what steps to take to get the desired outcome.

 

Introverted Intuition will take pieces of abstract information and make sense of it. It is not interested so much in concrete facts, as it is with the essence of ideas and theories, and how they all fit together. They are very good at recognizing patterns.

 

Introverted Intuition may sense that something is off. They may notice a person’s tone of voice, a momentary pause, or body language that is incongruent to how they typically behave. These factors are observed in a more abstract way, making it difficult for the Ni user to explain their conclusion to others. They just get an overall feel or aura of the situation.

 

Ni users are also good at creating a persona. They understand how the world perceives people. They can create a vision of what they want to become, and take steps toward accomplishing their goal. For example, an Ni user can notice “If I wear a this suit here and present my story this way, I have a good chance of getting an investment for my business.” They understand what objects and events symbolize and how they can use them to their advantage.

Introverted Intuition asks questions like “what’s really going on here?” or “where have I felt this way before?” Introverted Intuition is one of the toughest functions to explain to someone else that doesn’t have it. Because of this, Ni has been labeled as “mystical” and “psychic.” And sure, it can appear that way to others, but it is more complex and involved than just “magically” coming to conclusions.

 

VS

 

Extraverted Intuition (Ne) or "creativity" deals with experiencing the outer world, noticing possibilities, and what could be seeing how all things in life are interrelated, and allows the user to see the world in multiple different perspectives.

Extraverted Intuition is always seeing possibilities. They always want to know “what could be”. They are adept at understanding the external environment, but they always want to take it one step further. They wonder, “if I change this, what will happen?”

 

The Ne user is always striving for growth or improvement. Extraverted Intuition can give them a sense of idealism and the desire to want to impact the world.

 

Extraverted Intuition also has the ability to make obscure connections. The Ne user can take two seemingly unrelated topics and bring them together. This can also cause the user to have an off-beat sense of humor.

Extraverted Intuition is a right brained function. The Ne user tends to have a very creative mind. The world and workplaces tend to favor left brained activities, so it would be wise for the Ne user to develop a creative outlet for this function, whether it’s through writing, music, art, or any other activity that allows self expression.

Extraverted Intuitives also have a very entrepreneurial mindset. Ne users see possibilities of what could be all around them. They have a desire to make things happen and “put a dent in the world.” Extraverted Intuitives can get very excited about these possibilities, making them naturally charismatic. Ne users can be inspiring leaders that are catalysts for change.

 

People with Extraverted Intuition should seek to find a position or niche in the world where they can lead a team to promote change. This would be very fulfilling for them and help them to grow as a person.

 

Just my two cents, myself trust my experience and the experience of others over any theory. I hope more and more people describe their experience with Tagsync, nevertheless I would appreciate a simple explanation (Opaque?) of how Tagsync performs its magic, because still I do not understand it...


Edited by Strangelove, 05 November 2014 - 09:14 PM.

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#101 Major Legend

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:13 PM

 

 

  • Achieving deeper meditation causes changes to the brain and genetic expression, we know deep meditators are in a certain advanced state similiar to that of low dose pscyhedelics (or a child you can even argue),   I think a lot of bio hacker are looking to increase their output, contribution and abilities. Meditation opens the mind and allows new ideas to flow. I have known that since university, however what I want is speed and relentlessness that elite neurotypicals seem to be blessed with. Does deep meditation really achieve productivity?

^ For example my life long goal is not only to make money and being able to take care of people I love. I would like to make a lasting change to humanity, I would like to alleviate the pain of people suffering, this isn't a dream - I actively persue it, and I see it now as one of my lifes mission. I don't feel being some high minded monk can help me do this.

 


 

Just my two cents, myself trust my experience and the experience of others over any theory. I hope more and more people describe their experience with Tagsync, nevertheless I would appreciate a simple explanation (Opaque?) of how Tagsync performs its magic, because still I do not understand it...

 

 

You pretty much nailed it, way better than I could have  - on what I am trying to get at in regards to protocol and pragmatic actuality. I am an ENFP myself, though I take that whole test with a pinch of salt since I think most people can't be strictly defined by personality type, things like cognitive performance comes to mind too. I am positively enthusiastic after reading how much you get what I am saying. ( no homo : / )

 

The mind is hardware, no different than your computer in many ways. In the same way we can tinker with a computer's program and hardware, we too should be able to tinker with the mind.

 

As we very well know that medication and supplements can swing someone from an I to an E, Intuition to a Judgemental or vice versa, of which the lattitude is impressive to say the least, the problem of course with medication is tolerance and addiction.

 

Which brings me to what i've been trying to get at, but afraid to say. That we need to push boundaries, we need to be able to subject the mind to different states, to "when" we need the state, not what the "best" state is because there is probably no such thing. Experiencing differencing states allows us to grow immensely (ironically how DNA structure was discovered?), we also need to be able to push  brain performance beyond what is "normal" for our genes.

 

We need to start seeing the healthy normal brain as a frontier to pass. I feel this is a huge issue with the medical community regarding life extension/enhancement too, we rely too much on the biological status quo - which as we know doesn't work for a whooole lot of people.

 

For example if you look at most productive people they do go into meditative states sometime for idea fishing, but ultimately you need to go out there and do the work. There isn't an endevour in the world that doesn't include 80 to 90% "grind". I've long been preaching this to others in RL. It's the cream and the cake. Meditation is part of the cream, however without the cake the cream is nothing but sugary fluff.

 

edit: I suffer from a myriad of mental dysfunctions, so my angle is mostly from that.
 


Edited by Major Legend, 05 November 2014 - 09:22 PM.

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#102 Strangelove

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:59 PM

I agree exactly with everything you say, hopefully we are going to have a discussion of why Tag-sync is not a protocol that "puts the brain in a box" (even if it is a big box).

 

The best "testimonial" for any NFB protocol for me, would be one that reads like: I had few sessions and started to get all these creative ideas of how I am going to improve my external, real life circumstances / and gave me the motivation to take action also... (although perhaps, am I dreaming?)

 

I am positive though because Asprey must be an NP and he has said in the past that the (very expensive) NFB sessions he does had the best effects on his brain than anything else he has tried. I wish I knew the logic behind the protocol for his sessions, to see if would make someone more creative the way I described.

 

Have you looked into neuroptimal, it seems like the most flexible NFB protocol there is, from my brief look into it, it seems that "just" make you aware when you are ready to change your state.

 

edit: 

 

Perhaps your angle is been aware of how many different ways are to strategically function and you want to feel very good (at least) in each one? Some people are happy functioning well in a specific way, inside a "specific environment" and some want to push boundaries in everything, being conscious to the inherent limitations of their brain's architecture. Luckily we are at an age that we have more and more tools for swinging as you said from function to function. 

 

Second edit: 

 

I am going to send a PM to Asprey, hopefully he will make a comment to explain the logic behind the protocol he uses.


Edited by Strangelove, 05 November 2014 - 10:23 PM.


#103 Blackkzeus

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 12:25 AM

Does anybody use tag sync neurofeedback in Pennsylvania? I'm highly interested in trying tag sync nfb out to counteract my adhd symptoms, but I don't have funds (college student with minimum wage job) to buy the equipment. Rather, I was hoping someone around my area could use their equipment on me and I'd pay them for each session. Something along those lines. If anybody can help please send me a personal message. 


Edited by Ed Ntuk, 06 November 2014 - 12:26 AM.


#104 OpaqueMind

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 06:21 PM

Achieving deeper meditation causes changes to the brain and genetic expression, we know deep meditators are in a certain advanced state similiar to that of low dose pscyhedelics (or a child you can even argue),   I think a lot of bio hacker are looking to increase their output, contribution and abilities. Meditation opens the mind and allows new ideas to flow. I have known that since university, however what I want is speed and relentlessness that elite neurotypicals seem to be blessed with. Does deep meditation really achieve productivity?

 

I guess you’re talking about deep meditation in relation to TAGsync, so i’ll mainly talk about that. TAGsync is not just about enabling us to achieve deep states of meditation; that is certainly one effect, but is only one among many. In someone oriented towards productivity then the abilities gained, for example the increases in mental energy, intelligence and creativity, could certainly be harnessed for such ends. But I don’t think our tools for neuromodulation are yet refined enough to directly affect our drive to be productive. Productivity is a higher order phenomenon of the brain, and is dependent on goal structures and the like. Even taking stimulants doesn’t necessarily make you more productive; it might make you more energetic, and if you have goals you might be more likely to apply yourself to realising them, but in itself it will never cause you to achieve productivity. Likewise with TAGsync, it will hone your mind on a deep level, but what you apply yourself to is a decision you have to make. Though I will say that impulse control is greatly improved, which can help a lot with minimising distractions which might otherwise make us less likely to realise our goals.

 

Speed of thought and relentlessness could certainly be effects of training. I find it difficult to measure my internal speed of thought because if it has changed in speed, it has changed slowly. When talking to people it does seem that they function quite slowly, but I’ve felt like that for a whiles so it’s not necessarily because of the training I’ve been doing. One thing I have noticed, which didn’t occur before, is that I think more in parallel now, so if prompted to think often a multitude of options or ideas appear in my head simultaneously and already organised, like a branching tree of possibilities or a mutually supporting web of ideas. This is quite a recent development, as before I was solely linear and linguistic in my thinking style. I can certainly see relentlessness as being a product of a TAG enhanced mind plus a dedicated disposition to achieving something. Emotion is usually the force which pushes and abuses us into broken and goal-less action patterns, a force which is greatly diminished in its negative effects by TAG. I have said before about how it feels like impulse simply floats in a space somewhere in my mind, whereas before it would consume me; the same is true of emotions, unless I want to dive into them, in which case I can feel them more intensely than ever (though there is a very strong bias towards positivity now, whereas before I was chronically prone to depression and anxiety).

 

The idea behind Tagsync which is a more advanced development of older neurofeedback is based on the idea that the brain has certain natural optimal patterns that we see in all living things and in monks in deep meditation, that we eventually deviate from due to a variety of factors. This is similiar to the advocates of biofeedback, brain entrainment, that when the brain achieves a state of "no noise" it is able to reorganise itself and rewrite bad habits. One of the hardest things in treating psychological issues like anxiety, is the inability to remove repetitive signal patterns long embedded in the brain.

 

However I pose the question - could this be an over simplification? What about structural dysfunctions caused by genetic dysfunction for example?

 

It is an over simplification in the sense that this is not all it does. This is a fairly high level conceptual description of what is most likely a very messy biological reality. We have to deal in such abstractions in order to try to understand it, and necessarily in abstracting we bracket and neglect other aspects of the phenomenon.

       

It is a fair question to ask about the origins of dysfunctionality and to what depth TAG goes to alleviate them. When we talk about dysfunctions of genetic origin we should keep in mind that the epigenetic expression of the genome over time is not a fixed reality but something which is continually altering in relation to signals from the cells environment. There may be disorders where the avoidance of manifesting a genetically originating dysfunction is impossible, but most cases are not like this. Most genetic ‘causes’ of illness are really just genetic proneness to something, then some environmental triggers bring it out at some point in biological development. This may even be true for example in cases of Autism, but since the progressive self-organisation of the brain through time constrains and delimits later structural possibilities, epigenetic alterations which cause significant dysfunction early in development could remain dysfunctional even if the specific epigenetic pattern which caused this dysfunction were to disappear. Or the epigenetic pattern may be reinforced by the growth of the networks in certain ways. The key thing is that the information transmission between genotype/phenotype/environment is not unidirectional, but consists of intricate feedback loops, which potentially allows significantly greater evolution of the system. Which is why even though Autism is thought to have a strong genetic basis, there has been recent great success in such cases with sufficiently powerful neurofeedback modalities like TAGsync and ILF, which deals with system-level neurodynamics and reorganise cortical networks in deep ways.

 

 

Also two things

 

alteration of genetic expression due to environment stress could be a useful adaptation mechanism, especially if these stress factors have long been in our environment and in our pychological evolution. Wouldn't that mean that the "neurofeedback optimal mind" is a resultant of this move away from the "baby/child" state.

 

Our have bodies have adapted over millenia to respond to stress in certain ways yes, however these patterns of response where sculpted by situations which are vastly different from the ones we face now. What was once adaptive on the planes of the savannah, for example, a low threshold for the activation of the stress response, is now maladaptive, causing many people mental and physical health problems. Depression itself is an adaptation mechanism which increases problem solving ability and causes rumination on that which is depressing you. But such rumination is only useful if we can effectively act on it and alter the depressing stimulus. In our contemporary situation power is systematically divested from us, and so the acts which depression might prompt us into are themselves more often impotent than not. For example, many people get depressed when they can’t get a job or earn enough money to pay their bills. Scarcity of jobs and exploitation of the individual are structurally integral aspects of modern day capitalism, but being depressed about them serves no purpose at all. We now have come to a level of consciousness which allows us to understand a situation and respond via mediation of action by the rational mind. In some situations emotions and their associated reaction patterns can be helpful but often they just interfere with our explicit goals. I think a fitting analogy is that we’re like apes with advanced exocortexes, basically an advanced digital brain plonked on top of a primitive one, and which are locked in a constant power struggle over who gets the controls. I see TAGsync (and more widely, meditation) as increasing the communication between the two, and since the advanced mind has more processing power, steadily increasing its ability to modulate the lower, more primitive and reactionary aspects of mind.

 

 

2) giftedness or rather certain "good" traits might be a result of cognitive mutation itself, such as the prevalence of advanced minds in high functioning autistic people

 

If such things were true, what if restoring "optimal brain function" can also remove these gifts or adaptations.

 

It’s certainly a real possibility that this could happen, although keep in mind that you will gain new abilities as you advance on this path, if you decide to take it. Perhaps you could talk to Douglas Dailey for more information about this; he has experience treating people with Autism.

 

 

Finally, if the assumption behind neurofeedback is that the optimal brain function is indeed optimal for most people, for people who have lifelong mental dysfunction - is it possible their optimal function is already compromised regardless?

 

It’s possible, but there have been recent breakthroughs in treating Autism and other such deeply rooted network dysfunctions with neurofeedback, specifically with TAGsync and Infra-low frequency training. See here [http://www.tagsynchrony.com/blog.htm] where it is described how Autism is a correlated with specific network dysfunctions, the very networks which are principally targeted in TAG training.

 

 

Or simply if someone has dysfunctional genetics anyways, how does restoring to their baseline help?

 

See the above brief description of epigenetic expression and feedback loops.

 

 

Finally what is the link between deep states of meditation and mental health?

 

This is a deep question, and it is not fully understood at this time. I have written before about how I think there might be a correlation between the degree of disassociation of certain neural networks/perception-action patterns from the brain/mind as a whole. The following may be somewhat incoherent or difficult to follow because there are interlinking aspects and its more of a web than a linear set of ideas. The seed that began this thought was that I realised that when achieving theta-alpha-gamma synchrony during feedback, in those moments my mind was quiet and peaceful. It therefore seemed that EEG synchrony, which reflects increased intercommunication between brain networks between the sites targeted, was somehow related to the development of a healthy brain. Then I read this paper [http://dynapsyc.org/2014/raugei.pdf] and I realised that the health (or rather energetic efficiency, which relates to health (or rather ability to persist through time) in energetically finite systems) of an adaptive system is related to its integrative/dissociative patterns. Then I thought that desynchronisation of brainwaves (the opposite of mindfulness) is somehow related to dissociative neural patterns, aka a fracturing of the attentional field into foreground and background and the diversion of energetic resources into particular mental constructs such as thoughts or feelings. This is a natural part of a healthy mind, but often these patterns become stuck as cyclic attractors (and in the worst cases as fixed attractors) (say, if the system does not have enough novel input to perturb it and break up these autopoietic patterns and enforce their evolution, which happens a lot in this modern society where we have constructed a world of relative predictability around us), for example in clinical depression the state becomes a cyclic attractor in the mind regardless of external input, or in OCD habit patterns become stuck, and also all of the conditionings we accumulate over a lifetime which then rerun themselves constantly distorting our mental and emotional landscape for their own ends aka their continued existence and justification of their existence. The most pernicious and widespread of these attractors is the self, which seeds many of these other attractors in a fractal manner (attractors within attractors within attractors etc). What non-narrative awareness/mindfulness/TAGsync-state does is dissolve over both short-term and long-term the boundaries between these systems, reintegrating the dissociated patterns and re-introducing chaos into the system (in the form of consciousness), which then breaks up the patterns and either causes their dissolution or integration. This leads to the dissolution of cyclic attractors over time, allowing one to be more adaptive and responsive to the situation at hand rather than unconsciously responding in potentially destructive and damaging ways from a contextually irrelevant repository of historically conditioned patterns of emotion, thought and behaviour. I think Einstein’s definition of insanity was interesting and relevant – ‘Insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results’. On this definition all the reactions that are prompted by conditionings or otherwise dissociated neural patterns, reactions that do not fit the given situation to which they are meant to respond, and that are disconnected from reality, are on a scale which if extrapolated ends up ultimately in psychosis aka the complete loss of touch with reality. In this way I think there is a very direct link between meditation, TAGsync and mental health in general.

 

 

If these masters are truly ascended beings why aren't they doing the innovation in todays society? You can even argue that the stereotypical succesful elite neurotypical is a complete opposite of all those meditative characteristics.

 

I think there are several reasons why enlightened entities are generally not the ones innovating in today’s society;

-       To achieve such levels of consciousness has typically taken years, even decades of hard work and dedication to spiritual practice, and our time to dedicate to things is finite

-       Once people reach such states, they generally find them so incredible and freeing, and themselves so loving and empathic, that all they want to do is either a) relax into them for extended periods or b) try and help guide other’s to reach them. Probably some combination of these two

-       Obsessive dedication to something often occurs because of some kind of neurotic tendency, and neuroses are dissolved by highly advanced states of consciousness

    

That said there are most probably enlightened people out there who devote themselves to the betterment of humanity or advancement of knowledge in other ways. But if they go around telling people that they are infinity manifest and that love is the true nature of existence that usually doesn’t go down too well. Also, I think the biggest factor in this is that we have finite time and energy to dedicate to one thing, and the application of both of these is substantial to get very far in both aspects. Until now that is. Now we can cultivate our consciousness and intellectual abilities with such powerful technologies as TAGsync and other neurofeedback protocols (which by the way, I recommend people get the Entropy designs umop mentioned, they’re very synergistic with TAG) without having to devote a significant portion of our lives to attaining them. Also, the spectrum of states which lies between an enlightened being and a neurotic mess is a scale, and benefits accrue as we progress towards the former; it is not a binary state. I don’t know whether neurofeedback can get us all the way, but in my experience it can get us a fair way towards it, while also massively boosting key aspects of our minds like happiness, emotional stability, creativity, intelligence, energy and so on.

 

Well that went on longer than expected. Fuck proofreading that haha. If I have been incoherent or grammatically lax at any point, forgive me. I am still currently of finite constitution  ;) 


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#105 Strangelove

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 09:36 PM

 

Achieving deeper meditation causes changes to the brain and genetic expression, we know deep meditators are in a certain advanced state similiar to that of low dose pscyhedelics (or a child you can even argue),   I think a lot of bio hacker are looking to increase their output, contribution and abilities. Meditation opens the mind and allows new ideas to flow. I have known that since university, however what I want is speed and relentlessness that elite neurotypicals seem to be blessed with. Does deep meditation really achieve productivity?

 

I guess you’re talking about deep meditation in relation to TAGsync, so i’ll mainly talk about that. TAGsync is not just about enabling us to achieve deep states of meditation; that is certainly one effect, but is only one among many. In someone oriented towards productivity then the abilities gained, for example the increases in mental energy, intelligence and creativity, could certainly be harnessed for such ends. But I don’t think our tools for neuromodulation are yet refined enough to directly affect our drive to be productive. Productivity is a higher order phenomenon of the brain, and is dependent on goal structures and the like. Even taking stimulants doesn’t necessarily make you more productive; it might make you more energetic, and if you have goals you might be more likely to apply yourself to realising them, but in itself it will never cause you to achieve productivity. Likewise with TAGsync, it will hone your mind on a deep level, but what you apply yourself to is a decision you have to make. Though I will say that impulse control is greatly improved, which can help a lot with minimising distractions which might otherwise make us less likely to realise our goals.

 

Speed of thought and relentlessness could certainly be effects of training. I find it difficult to measure my internal speed of thought because if it has changed in speed, it has changed slowly. When talking to people it does seem that they function quite slowly, but I’ve felt like that for a whiles so it’s not necessarily because of the training I’ve been doing. One thing I have noticed, which didn’t occur before, is that I think more in parallel now, so if prompted to think often a multitude of options or ideas appear in my head simultaneously and already organised, like a branching tree of possibilities or a mutually supporting web of ideas. This is quite a recent development, as before I was solely linear and linguistic in my thinking style. I can certainly see relentlessness as being a product of a TAG enhanced mind plus a dedicated disposition to achieving something. Emotion is usually the force which pushes and abuses us into broken and goal-less action patterns, a force which is greatly diminished in its negative effects by TAG. I have said before about how it feels like impulse simply floats in a space somewhere in my mind, whereas before it would consume me; the same is true of emotions, unless I want to dive into them, in which case I can feel them more intensely than ever (though there is a very strong bias towards positivity now, whereas before I was chronically prone to depression and anxiety).

 

The idea behind Tagsync which is a more advanced development of older neurofeedback is based on the idea that the brain has certain natural optimal patterns that we see in all living things and in monks in deep meditation, that we eventually deviate from due to a variety of factors. This is similiar to the advocates of biofeedback, brain entrainment, that when the brain achieves a state of "no noise" it is able to reorganise itself and rewrite bad habits. One of the hardest things in treating psychological issues like anxiety, is the inability to remove repetitive signal patterns long embedded in the brain.

 

However I pose the question - could this be an over simplification? What about structural dysfunctions caused by genetic dysfunction for example?

 

It is an over simplification in the sense that this is not all it does. This is a fairly high level conceptual description of what is most likely a very messy biological reality. We have to deal in such abstractions in order to try to understand it, and necessarily in abstracting we bracket and neglect other aspects of the phenomenon.

       

It is a fair question to ask about the origins of dysfunctionality and to what depth TAG goes to alleviate them. When we talk about dysfunctions of genetic origin we should keep in mind that the epigenetic expression of the genome over time is not a fixed reality but something which is continually altering in relation to signals from the cells environment. There may be disorders where the avoidance of manifesting a genetically originating dysfunction is impossible, but most cases are not like this. Most genetic ‘causes’ of illness are really just genetic proneness to something, then some environmental triggers bring it out at some point in biological development. This may even be true for example in cases of Autism, but since the progressive self-organisation of the brain through time constrains and delimits later structural possibilities, epigenetic alterations which cause significant dysfunction early in development could remain dysfunctional even if the specific epigenetic pattern which caused this dysfunction were to disappear. Or the epigenetic pattern may be reinforced by the growth of the networks in certain ways. The key thing is that the information transmission between genotype/phenotype/environment is not unidirectional, but consists of intricate feedback loops, which potentially allows significantly greater evolution of the system. Which is why even though Autism is thought to have a strong genetic basis, there has been recent great success in such cases with sufficiently powerful neurofeedback modalities like TAGsync and ILF, which deals with system-level neurodynamics and reorganise cortical networks in deep ways.

 

 

Also two things

 

alteration of genetic expression due to environment stress could be a useful adaptation mechanism, especially if these stress factors have long been in our environment and in our pychological evolution. Wouldn't that mean that the "neurofeedback optimal mind" is a resultant of this move away from the "baby/child" state.

 

Our have bodies have adapted over millenia to respond to stress in certain ways yes, however these patterns of response where sculpted by situations which are vastly different from the ones we face now. What was once adaptive on the planes of the savannah, for example, a low threshold for the activation of the stress response, is now maladaptive, causing many people mental and physical health problems. Depression itself is an adaptation mechanism which increases problem solving ability and causes rumination on that which is depressing you. But such rumination is only useful if we can effectively act on it and alter the depressing stimulus. In our contemporary situation power is systematically divested from us, and so the acts which depression might prompt us into are themselves more often impotent than not. For example, many people get depressed when they can’t get a job or earn enough money to pay their bills. Scarcity of jobs and exploitation of the individual are structurally integral aspects of modern day capitalism, but being depressed about them serves no purpose at all. We now have come to a level of consciousness which allows us to understand a situation and respond via mediation of action by the rational mind. In some situations emotions and their associated reaction patterns can be helpful but often they just interfere with our explicit goals. I think a fitting analogy is that we’re like apes with advanced exocortexes, basically an advanced digital brain plonked on top of a primitive one, and which are locked in a constant power struggle over who gets the controls. I see TAGsync (and more widely, meditation) as increasing the communication between the two, and since the advanced mind has more processing power, steadily increasing its ability to modulate the lower, more primitive and reactionary aspects of mind.

 

 

2) giftedness or rather certain "good" traits might be a result of cognitive mutation itself, such as the prevalence of advanced minds in high functioning autistic people

 

If such things were true, what if restoring "optimal brain function" can also remove these gifts or adaptations.

 

It’s certainly a real possibility that this could happen, although keep in mind that you will gain new abilities as you advance on this path, if you decide to take it. Perhaps you could talk to Douglas Dailey for more information about this; he has experience treating people with Autism.

 

 

Finally, if the assumption behind neurofeedback is that the optimal brain function is indeed optimal for most people, for people who have lifelong mental dysfunction - is it possible their optimal function is already compromised regardless?

 

It’s possible, but there have been recent breakthroughs in treating Autism and other such deeply rooted network dysfunctions with neurofeedback, specifically with TAGsync and Infra-low frequency training. See here [http://www.tagsynchrony.com/blog.htm] where it is described how Autism is a correlated with specific network dysfunctions, the very networks which are principally targeted in TAG training.

 

 

Or simply if someone has dysfunctional genetics anyways, how does restoring to their baseline help?

 

See the above brief description of epigenetic expression and feedback loops.

 

 

Finally what is the link between deep states of meditation and mental health?

 

This is a deep question, and it is not fully understood at this time. I have written before about how I think there might be a correlation between the degree of disassociation of certain neural networks/perception-action patterns from the brain/mind as a whole. The following may be somewhat incoherent or difficult to follow because there are interlinking aspects and its more of a web than a linear set of ideas. The seed that began this thought was that I realised that when achieving theta-alpha-gamma synchrony during feedback, in those moments my mind was quiet and peaceful. It therefore seemed that EEG synchrony, which reflects increased intercommunication between brain networks between the sites targeted, was somehow related to the development of a healthy brain. Then I read this paper [http://dynapsyc.org/2014/raugei.pdf] and I realised that the health (or rather energetic efficiency, which relates to health (or rather ability to persist through time) in energetically finite systems) of an adaptive system is related to its integrative/dissociative patterns. Then I thought that desynchronisation of brainwaves (the opposite of mindfulness) is somehow related to dissociative neural patterns, aka a fracturing of the attentional field into foreground and background and the diversion of energetic resources into particular mental constructs such as thoughts or feelings. This is a natural part of a healthy mind, but often these patterns become stuck as cyclic attractors (and in the worst cases as fixed attractors) (say, if the system does not have enough novel input to perturb it and break up these autopoietic patterns and enforce their evolution, which happens a lot in this modern society where we have constructed a world of relative predictability around us), for example in clinical depression the state becomes a cyclic attractor in the mind regardless of external input, or in OCD habit patterns become stuck, and also all of the conditionings we accumulate over a lifetime which then rerun themselves constantly distorting our mental and emotional landscape for their own ends aka their continued existence and justification of their existence. The most pernicious and widespread of these attractors is the self, which seeds many of these other attractors in a fractal manner (attractors within attractors within attractors etc). What non-narrative awareness/mindfulness/TAGsync-state does is dissolve over both short-term and long-term the boundaries between these systems, reintegrating the dissociated patterns and re-introducing chaos into the system (in the form of consciousness), which then breaks up the patterns and either causes their dissolution or integration. This leads to the dissolution of cyclic attractors over time, allowing one to be more adaptive and responsive to the situation at hand rather than unconsciously responding in potentially destructive and damaging ways from a contextually irrelevant repository of historically conditioned patterns of emotion, thought and behaviour. I think Einstein’s definition of insanity was interesting and relevant – ‘Insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results’. On this definition all the reactions that are prompted by conditionings or otherwise dissociated neural patterns, reactions that do not fit the given situation to which they are meant to respond, and that are disconnected from reality, are on a scale which if extrapolated ends up ultimately in psychosis aka the complete loss of touch with reality. In this way I think there is a very direct link between meditation, TAGsync and mental health in general.

 

 

If these masters are truly ascended beings why aren't they doing the innovation in todays society? You can even argue that the stereotypical succesful elite neurotypical is a complete opposite of all those meditative characteristics.

 

I think there are several reasons why enlightened entities are generally not the ones innovating in today’s society;

-       To achieve such levels of consciousness has typically taken years, even decades of hard work and dedication to spiritual practice, and our time to dedicate to things is finite

-       Once people reach such states, they generally find them so incredible and freeing, and themselves so loving and empathic, that all they want to do is either a) relax into them for extended periods or b) try and help guide other’s to reach them. Probably some combination of these two

-       Obsessive dedication to something often occurs because of some kind of neurotic tendency, and neuroses are dissolved by highly advanced states of consciousness

    

That said there are most probably enlightened people out there who devote themselves to the betterment of humanity or advancement of knowledge in other ways. But if they go around telling people that they are infinity manifest and that love is the true nature of existence that usually doesn’t go down too well. Also, I think the biggest factor in this is that we have finite time and energy to dedicate to one thing, and the application of both of these is substantial to get very far in both aspects. Until now that is. Now we can cultivate our consciousness and intellectual abilities with such powerful technologies as TAGsync and other neurofeedback protocols (which by the way, I recommend people get the Entropy designs umop mentioned, they’re very synergistic with TAG) without having to devote a significant portion of our lives to attaining them. Also, the spectrum of states which lies between an enlightened being and a neurotic mess is a scale, and benefits accrue as we progress towards the former; it is not a binary state. I don’t know whether neurofeedback can get us all the way, but in my experience it can get us a fair way towards it, while also massively boosting key aspects of our minds like happiness, emotional stability, creativity, intelligence, energy and so on.

 

Well that went on longer than expected. Fuck proofreading that haha. If I have been incoherent or grammatically lax at any point, forgive me. I am still currently of finite constitution  ;) 

 

 

I appreciate your effort you put to make Tag-sync more well known, even if will not work as good in me, as some other people, I am glad I know about it. I am going to try it when I ll have the funds and if I am not happy enough with the results, I ll try some other NFB protocol probably being discussed in this thread.

 

There is a reason why me and Major Legend we are questioning NFB protocols that put you in a "meditative state" whatever this can be, although can be great for some people, we are trying to know (beforehand / with no cost - if that is even possible?) if would put as in the state that we are interested. I do not know if would make things simpler if I give an example, starting with a question that most British people could answer.

 

Who brain's would benefit more from a meditative NFB session "Gandi's or Branson's"? 

I think both me and Major Legend we believe that Gandi and Branson were born "this way". What I mean by this (and I have read Gandi's great autobiography many years ago to remember details) is that Gandi was an introvert, looking to bring a unity and meaning to his unique personality and life circumstances, Branson is an extrovert with great energy and playful spirit, always trying new things in business just because its fun for him.

 

The question here is, would Tag-sync be useful at all to someone functioning like Branson? Would someone that mostly things in a flow of images and abrupt ideas, being outhere, benefit from the stilness and insight that Tag-sync brings? Or perhaps seem unatural to his brain, curbing his natural inclination for chasing external possibilities, not analysing much and go with intuitive gut feeling?

 

I have some ideas based mostly in personality theory and then the just one book I have read making some corellations with personality and EEG readings, but the final word of course, should be our own experience trying Tagsync or any other protocol. Even if my brains EEG reading is like a "flashing christmas tree" who could say if I would benefit and get another perspective with a protocol that make my brainwaves more coherent?



#106 OpaqueMind

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 06:56 PM

I appreciate your effort you put to make Tag-sync more well known, even if will not work as good in me, as some other people, I am glad I know about it. I am going to try it when I ll have the funds and if I am not happy enough with the results, I ll try some other NFB protocol probably being discussed in this thread.

 

Thanks man, I appreciate your appreciation :)  Given how profoundly revolutionary neurofeedback and specifically TAGsync has been for me, I feel an obligation to try and help it become more well known. Given the messed up state I was in, having been in and out of severe depression for so long, and having destroyed my mind with drugs, I can honestly say that I think I would have been better off dead than continuing to live without the transformation that neurofeedback has enabled, and continues to enable.

 

 

There is a reason why me and Major Legend we are questioning NFB protocols that put you in a "meditative state" whatever this can be, although can be great for some people, we are trying to know (beforehand / with no cost - if that is even possible?) if would put as in the state that we are interested.

 

I think that we might have been a little lopsided in our descriptions of the benefits of TAGsync so far, in the sense that because a few of us are very keen on developing my meditative abilities to high levels, we have often focused on this in our descriptions of the effects. From this you might get the impression that increased meditative abilities is the only or the most obvious effect of training, but for me at least this is not the case. Someone who is not into meditation could certainly gain a massive amount from TAGsync training. It is true that the state that TAGsync feels like is one of non-narrative awareness aka mindfulness, but its benefits are not limited to simply increasing one’s level of mindfulness. The changes themselves seem so widespread and deep that it is difficult to describe them adequately. Though just in relation to explicit idea-based thinking, I notice that the speed of learning, the efficiency of memory, the novelty of idea-generation and the depth of comprehension (think weed thoughts, when you really feel an idea, like whoaaaa dude :D) are all increased greatly, as well as the mental stamina to engage in these things consistently.

 

 

The question here is, would Tag-sync be useful at all to someone functioning like Branson? Would someone that mostly things in a flow of images and abrupt ideas, being outhere, benefit from the stilness and insight that Tag-sync brings? Or perhaps seem unatural to his brain, curbing his natural inclination for chasing external possibilities, not analysing much and go with intuitive gut feeling?

 

TAGsync would be useful for anyone with a brain! TAGsync does not only bring stillness, though that is one possible way you could take it, if you so wish. Another way is to jump into, move within and become one with the creative and energetic chaos of thought and feeling that ripples throughout the mind at any moment. The way I experience it, the transformation is not towards a singular way of being (although there is a general sense of peace and at-home-ness), but seems more like the development of a flexible capacity to engage fully with whatever one is doing at that moment, whatever it might be. Thinking, exercising, socializing, creating, moving, visualising, listening to music, anything really. It is most pronounced for me when I’m in creative states of high energy, for example I play acoustic guitar, and I pretty much only improvise, and now I can much more easily get into a deep flow state where I’m not consciously directing anything, it’s like my body and my mind spontaneously express themselves through these vibrations and my feelings translate effortlessly through this medium and I find myself swept up in the energy of the moment. Sometimes I come out of the trance and wonder if that was really me playing! On rarer occasions this also happens with thinking too, when I have all these pieces of thoughts that can fit together just right and they all cascade into some holistic structure and it’s like I’m just observing this process unfold itself and i’m enraptured by it and there’s nothing else in the universe but me and this energetic unfolding. I think that this absorption and creativity could be applied to almost anything that is sufficiently complex and with which you have a degree of familiarity. Again this isn't a complete description of the benefits, but it is a description of an aspect of them which might be particularly relevant to someone who is looking to be more productive, prolific or creative in their output.


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#107 VastEmptiness

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 05:07 PM

I have multiple questions here:

 

1) What books/articles would you recommend to start with Neurofeedback? To understand the neurodynamics behind it and the functioning of the training. (While I've got a sense of it, i'd like to back it up with actual terms etc.)

2) While I see that a general reduction in anxiety (TAGSync seems to do that) will improve sleep on it's own: Are there any protocols that aim at improving the quality of sleep and if so, does one of you have any experience with that?

I'm more looking into somewhat training the brain areas that are generally used in sleep rather than having a relaxation protocol before sleep (but the latter might be interesting too; it's just that most relaxation techniques would give me insomnia due to "trying to hard" i guess).

 


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#108 Diego55

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 10:27 PM


Hello, I would like to ask you guys for your advice and recommendation about buying full EEG equipemnt with proper software primarily intended for treating my anxiety problems.

My brief background, I have tried over 35 different medications, lots of supplements, nootropics and I also went through various types of therapies (for example CBT, CBT hypnotherapy, group therapy...) but unfortunately I have not reached any measurable progress in my treatment yet. For 10 years of my treatment, I have visited almost 4-5 psychiatrists and I ended up at the same point where I started at the beginning .
Now, I would like to try some non-invasive and non-drug treatment approach and EEG neurofeedback seems like good option, even though it is quite expensive and I am still not sure how much it could help with my social phobia and avoidant personality disorder (my level of anxiety currently bordering on isolation so its quite bad now). I also suffering from depression, GAD, slight OCD (mostly in a way of perfectionism) and some cognitive issues as a result of long-term benzodiazepine use.

I am currently considering about trying the TAGsnyc protocol (especially since I have read some positive reports on anxiety). I would like to ask you for your opinion, what type of device would you advice me for these problems and if I would decided to go with Q-wiz amplifier, Electrodes, Bioexplorer, TAGsync (basiclly I am considering to buy the whole bundle for 1,934 bucks from mindsupplies.com), I really wonder to know, if this unit and operating software is too hard, too complicated to operate for a person who is basically a beginner in the field of EEG neurofeedback (so far, I have only tried the Emwave2 and CES device - David Delight Pro) ?
I have something over 2000 euros set aside, but unfortunately I do not have any experiences with this type of devices. However if there is any promising chance that I could benefit from using it for my condition I am determined to leran how to operate it!

I was also considering to get Neuroptimal rental system for 700 dollars (without shipping fees), but I decided to rather invest my money to my own device without any time limit. I also read the TAGsync is more powerful in comparison to Neuroptimal.


Thanks in advance for any advice that you could provide

#109 Crowstream

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 07:22 PM

For those of you who are interested in trying neurofeedback I thought I would write a short review of my experiences with this.

 

TAG Sync was my first protocol, I started with this in July last year and I have completed about 100 sessions with this, so far this has been the most profound protocol I have tried. I have written a lot about this in the TAG Sync thread so I guess you can just go read there, but in short it took me from being very depressed and anxious to essentially feeling great almost all the time, I really feel like it has helped me reach new heights of emotional and mental performance that I did not think was possible before trying it.

 

That said it is not a perfect protocol, and there are many others you can also use. I have also tried the brain trainer system, basicly I did a measurement of my brainwaves in several locations and created a brain map that selected training protocols for me based on how my brainwaves were working. I wanted to see what kind of effects I could get from just using this, so I stopped using TAG Sync for a while when I was testing the brain trainer system.

 

I have now completed 24 brain trainer sessions and my experience has been very positive, it is not the same as TAG Sync, but I think it may be beneficial in other ways. Its kind of hard to describe the effects but essentially I feel like it has re-programmed some of my mental patterns and perhaps slightly altered my personality (in a good way I think). One example I can give is when I was walking to the university one morning I could see into one of the buildings and I suddenly noticed that I had registered and noticed all the people in the building, that might sound totally unremarkable but I am usually very absent minded and I will hardly notice my environment very much, I will not pay attention to details like that, being more preoccupied with thinking and developing theories.

Being slightly unbalanced in this way, having this experience of being slightly more perceptive felt like a definite change in my experience of the world, and it was only one of many such slight changes.

Other things that have happened in my life is that I improved my academic performance, I raised my grades in mathematics since starting brain trainer (studying physics and mathematics right now) also feel like I did well on my physics exam but I have not gotten the results on that yet. I attribute this to increased motivation and execution, I felt like studying harder and I also feel it was a little bit easier to focus and study, although this could be for a range of different reasons (I also used a nootropic stack that may have boosted my performance). In any case I feel like brain trainer might have made it easier for me to study, I feel a bit "sharper" and more focused and a bit less foggy. Before I started brain trainer I didnt have any academic problems but I was a bit too dreamy and preoccupied with my own interests, rather than focusing on the "boring" math  :-D . Now I feel a lot more motivated to study and do well and to broaden my intellectual abilities.

 

Other major things that are really hard to explain other than as being the cause of this neurofeedback intervention is that I got really serious about developing a financial plan for myself, before I was really careless with money and I have never made a budget, or plan or anything like that (I am 25 so maybe it is just because of general immaturity  :-D) but in any case I got really interested in that, started studying investments, economics and such, now I have made an investment plan for myself, my goal is to create financial independence in 5 years (I want to have a certain amount of money invested before I am 30), I have also made plans for generating the income I will need for this and I am taking steps to making this real. I feel like I will probably carry through on this, or at least go very far, it is a pretty ambitious plan so just getting half-way there would be huge progress.

 

I have also begun creating a total life optimization plan, it includes diet, supplements, biohacks, blood/DNA testing, nootropic stacks, and well you name it!

 

I dont know if these are the effects of neurofeedback, or general maturation and personality growth that would have occured otherwise, but I feel like neurofeedback is a big reason for this, I feel like it has seriously optimized my brain and I feel totally great every day now, feels like I am really going somewhere with my life and I dont think it would be possible without neurofeedback.

 

A great thing about brain trainer is that you get a lot of different protocols, so you can try training your brain in many different ways, I feel like each protocol has slightly different effects and that they may be beneficial in their own ways.

 

After only using brain trainer for a while I really started missing TAG Sync though, it really had some great uplifting effects on my mood, it would usually make me feel an almost otherworldly joy and peace, what I could only guess would be the effects of many years of deep meditation training.

 

The greatest effects that I have experienced so far though was when I started combining TAG Sync and Brain Trainer, doing one in the morning and the other in the evening, this really catalized my development and together with my nootropic stack I think it seriously boosted my performance  :laugh: .

 

Now I am looking for new ways to go even further with this, I am interested in the entropy protocol, neuroptimal and the Othmer neurofeedback method mainly. Entropy will probably be the next one I add to my daily routine and I am really looking forward to that  :) .

 

 

 

@Vast Emptiness

Not sure if you are still looking for books, seeing as your post was a while back ago! In any case, maybe someone is interested.

 

Books I have found to be useful:

-Getting Started with Neurofeedback - John N. Demos - pretty basic stuff, more oriented towards people interested in setting up their own neurofeedback practice so it might not be as useful for people who just want to train themselves, but it is a good "standard" introductory text to the field in general. It might be a bit outdated now, in my opinion TAG Sync theory has advanced the field way beyond this!

-Neurofeedback in the treatment of developmental trauma - Sebern F. Fisher - this is a great book for understanding trauma at a psychological and neurological level as well as the resolution of this through neurofeedback. Sebern Fisher is perhaps one of the most experienced neurofeedback clinicians in dealing with very severe forms of developmental trauma (basicly people with no theory of mind skills/void of self), even if you dont have a great deal of developmental trauma I think it is a good book for anyone interested in neurofeedback as I do believe we all have some level of residual trauma/fear and dysregulation in our brain. Sebern Fisher is also a trained psychologist so she has also developed some deep psychological insights through her practice, so I consider it a good integration of these different fields.

-Neurotherapy and neurofeedback - Brain-Based Treatment for Psychological and Behavioral Problems - Theodore J. Chapin and Lori A. Russell-Chapin - the Chapins are experienced with working with TAG Sync, as far as I know this is the only book available now by clinicians who have TAG Sync experience, that said it is not a book about TAG Sync, but more about neurofeedback in general

-The Open-Focus Brain - Harnessing the Power of Attention to Heal Mind and Body - Les Fehmi and Jim Robbins - Les Fehmi has a lot of experience researching alpha brainwaves, in particular alpha synchrony, and  ways to create alpha synchrony without the need for a neurofeedback protocol, I think his research is relevant for TAG Sync as it also trains alpha synchrony. I think you can probably also find a lot of free material on his website if I remember correctly.

 

Other than that I can say I have learned a lot from the futurehealth podcasts, Rob Kall is not the best interviewer and the sound quality is a bit poor at times, but I have never found such an interesting collection of people from the neurofeedback field interviewed, if you want to learn about neurofeedback it is the best podcast I have found: http://www.futurehea...index.php?did=2

You need to make an account but thats easy, and its free.

 

Anyways, hope you were still interested in some tips on books, or maybe someone else is  :) .

 

 

Edit: I reread your post Vast Emptiness and saw you also had a question about sleep, while I cant answer that precisely since I have not been tracking my sleep, I think neurofeedback in general may improve sleep since it improves brain regulation.

A protocol you might want to research for this is the Other method ultra/infra-low frequency neurofeedback, the reason why this protocol may be interesting for sleep is because it supposedly targets the brain stem, it directly trains arousal regulation in the brain, I think the Othmers have reported improved sleep as an effect of their training and I would not be surprised if that was the case! That said I have not tried this myself so I am mainly guessing from the theory I have learned. Doing the Othmer protocol is a bit difficult right now because they require you to use their own neurofeedback amplifier (NeuroAmp) and software (Cygnet), that said, the Q-Wiz does have the potential to do this protocol although BioExplorer does not seem to have the right filter settings, so you need to buy BioEra and make your own protocol there. This is on my list of things to try in the future, right now I think I will do the entropy protocol and maybe after that I will try reproducing the Othmer protocol on BioEra.


Edited by Crowstream, 25 January 2015 - 07:35 PM.

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#110 whiskeytango67

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 09:17 PM

Crowstream, this is extremely valuable. Thank you.

I've fallen off the NFB horse since I last wrote, as I've gotten busy- but I'm really looking forward to renewing my attempt at it and combining TAG Sync with the Braintrainer protocol. With my current schedule, it's going to take weeks or months to wade into it, but I hope to experience the same kind of awareness and deep peace that I've read about as a result of TAG Sync. I'm glad to hear this combination can also work well.

#111 Crowstream

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 10:59 PM

@Whiskeytango

 

Glad you found it useful :).

 

I think for me taking the time to do neurofeedback has always been worth it, but it can be hard of course to keep up the discipline for ongoing daily work. I have found that doing 2 sessions a day can enhance progress, brain trainer and TAG sync work pretty well together like that at least from my experience with it so far.

 

TAG Sync can be a bit trickier to use then brain trainer I think because, for me at least brain trainer was pretty much plug and play, and you dont need to do anything during the neurofeedback session other than watching the feedback, I find TAG Sync is a little bit different. The best sessions for me with TAG Sync has usually been when the session has turned into a kind of meditation, it think it is definitely a special state of mind you can get into to maximize the effectiveness of that protocol. It is a bit hard to get into though, because like meditation trying can make it harder to achieve, but it is also easier then meditation because you have the feedback.

 

I just finished a TAG Sync sessions and I think it was probably one of the best ones so far  :), as the session progressed I closed my eyes, this made the meditative state easier to access and I just sort of surrendered into it and let my mind be empty of thought, I experienced a really profound state where I felt my mind kept opening up and expanding, it was pretty far out. I feel like that was a really restful place for me to be since I feel very clear minded, calm and rested now.

 

I should add that I first used alpha-theta feedback, this got me into a nice "access state" I think where I could go further with alpha-gamma.



#112 whiskeytango67

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 03:18 AM

@Crowsteam

That sounds fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

I'm curious- have you noticed that a particular time of day leads to the most effective sessions? Is it a bad idea to do it (brain trainer or TAG sync), say, right before bed?

Also, have you tried to time it right after exercise? Or before or after a meal, or certain supplements (for example NAC or omega 3s)?

One obstacle for me has been trying to create the perfect set of circumstances, when it's just not possible for me to align sll the stars multiple times a week. I'd envisioned this ideal routine: wake up, exercise, have an omega 3-rich breakfast, do NFB for an hour *then* go to work- I'd have to get up hours earlier to do this and would be pretty underslept as a result, which I think could outweigh the benefits of NFB for me right now.

My sense now is that I just have to do it when I can, which is pretty much in the hours before I go to bed. Unless anyone strongly advises against this (if, say, it would keep one too alert to fall asleep), I think I'm just going to proceed this way.

Also wondering... How long do the effects of a session last for you? If you never did NFB again, do you think you'd still regularly be able to access the state of contented awareness (forgive me if I misinterpreted) that you described? It sounds like you generally feel great afterwards- do you plan certain activities for right after NFB?

#113 Crowstream

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 09:22 AM

For TAG Sync, I think any time of the day is alright, its kind of like a powernap or something for me, leaves me feeling refreshed. Now I will usually do it before sleep, mainly because it is easier to do as a routine and I am doing brain trainer in the morning. It might make it easier to go to sleep, I will usually not have problems with that but I think it might make it easier to go to sleep faster since I am already very relaxed after using it.

 

I think brain trainer has some protocols which can be a bit more stimulating, HEG for sure I think you should avoid doing before bed for example. Maybe you can experiment with this, some of their protocols I find relaxing but not all of them.

 

I dont exercise right now (biggest hole in my game I think :)) but timing neurofeedback with exercise might be interesting, I guess maybe you can change the bloodflow to your brain with exercise, which might boost the effects of neurofeedback, who knows :). Exercise can also stimulate BDNF and NGF I think which may boost the effects of neurofeedback (I dont know how soon these are released after exercise though, maybe it takes a while for it to happen?)

I found these articles linking EEG alpha power, depression and BDNF levels in the brain: 

-http://www.sciencedi...30105110800152X 

-http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23733090

That might indicate that you can also increase BDNF levels in the brain using alpha neurofeedback, so I am sensing some synergy between exercise and neurofeedback as they may both be ways to increase BDNF levels (amongst other things of course).

 

I have not experimented much with supplements, lately I have been taking noopept, its too early to tell but I think it may work really well with neurofeedback. Noopept may also increase BDNF and NGF so perhaps neurofeedback+exercise+noopept is the way too go  :).

Noopept is a nootropic of course so I guess it depends on how comfortable you feel using those, I think noopept seems very safe though.

 

How long the effects last is a bit difficult to tell, I think humans are good at detecting changes in their state, so I can usually tell that a neurofeedback session has altered my state but a few hours from that it gets more difficult, its like you make a new baseline for yourself.

When I had taken a break from TAG Sync I woke up the next day and I felt totally different, it had profound effects on my mood. But now I am doing TAG Sync every day so its just normal for me, and I dont notice it as much I think but my mood is probably still changed.

 

If I stopped doing neurofeedback I think I still could access these states, I think it is like a skill, it is probably harder without neurofeedback but I think I have developed an understanding for the requirements of getting into that state. Then there are more seemingly permanent tonic changes to my physiology, for example my breathing pattern has totally changed from before I started neurofeedback, it is usually very deep and slow almost all the time now. I find even when I am hurrying and walking very fast to get somewhere I am still extremely calm and my breathing is very slow still. Its like a pervading sense of calmness that is undisturbed by the surrounding conditions. The mental state will be one of relaxed but alert awareness. This is totally different from how I was before.



#114 Crowstream

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:08 PM

I guess I should clarify a bit, when I had taken a break from TAG Sync I did my first session in perhaps a month, and then woke up the next day feeling an improvement in my mood. After that I have kept on using it.



#115 whiskeytango67

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 05:35 AM

That is super cool. Thanks for the clarification. BDNF is indeed what I had in mind, and I'm impressed that you've achieved such remarkable results even without exercise...although exercise is such an important part of my life, I couldn't imagine my life without it :-)

#116 VastEmptiness

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:29 AM

<a shitload of interesting things>

Hey Crowstream, I finally arrived back in my 'hometown' of Recife after some intense 3 month travels through Brazil including 18 days of training in coaching and therapy (basicly day&night, few sleep, lots of nootropics, eheh), getting an assessment done at Peter van Deusen's place in Santa Catarina (really interesting guy) and ending with Carnaval in Rio de Janeiro. In the meantime my Q-wiz setup arrive, so i finally got going.

Let me at this point just thank you very much. First hand information is something i really appreciate. Will see when I can get the books. The Symphony of the Brain one is on its way to me. I actually have the one by Les Fehmi and his techniques helped me back then in deepening my meditation (i actually created a layer of binaural beats and his instructions back then and found myself in very profound states of experiencing Nothingness. while i had a hard time reproducing these states on will, i felt like his techniques helped my regular practice).

I found all of your posts highly interesting, will be going through the complete two threads in the future. Thanks for your contributions!



#117 Crowstream

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:14 AM

@VastEmptiness

 

Cool man, I am glad you found it useful  :) . TAG Sync has been like a long journey of discoveries for me and I think there is still a lot to learn, I am glad that more people like you are getting involved and hopefully we can learn more about this and improve our practice.

I think TAG Sync especially is a pretty deep protocol and there are many levels of understanding, unlike some other protocols it requires a bit more mental effort to get into the right state of mind (or perhaps non-effort  :laugh:, which is very hard for modern people), I feel like with TAG Sync the way you understand the protocol matters and determines how much use you get out it, on the other hand I have also trained people who got a lot of benefit without really understanding what they were doing, although I did find giving instructions on trying to be aware of awareness and not thinking seemed to improve the results so it is a complicated protocol that sort of interacts with our mental attidude as well.

 

Your travelling sounds awesome, being into Brazilian jiu-jitsu and shamanism myself I have wanted to go to Brazil for some time, but oh well, maybe one day  :) .



#118 Diego55

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 11:11 PM

would like to know before i will order my own eeg device with TAG2x, can you tell me to what degree coud my current medication (lamotrigine + tianeptine + citalopram) affect my planned therapy with TAGsync ? I would like to know if there is any point in doing EEG sessions in my case, since i taking all of these drugs, including xanax on a daily basis ? thanks.

#119 VastEmptiness

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 01:41 AM

would like to know before i will order my own eeg device with TAG2x, can you tell me to what degree coud my current medication (lamotrigine + tianeptine + citalopram) affect my planned therapy with TAGsync ? I would like to know if there is any point in doing EEG sessions in my case, since i taking all of these drugs, including xanax on a daily basis ? thanks.

 

This is what brain-trainer comments about the topic:

 

 

 

Medications and Training

If you begin training while a client is on meds, as most of us do, you don’t need to stop while the brain is working off the chemicals. Whatever is the brain and whatever the drugs, that’s the brain you have to train. I believe you can assess–and train–whatever brain comes before you. In the US, if we didn’t train people who were on medication, there would only be about 150 people in the whole country we could do neurofeedback with!

The key to clients on medication is to ask them to learn from their doctor what the symptoms would be of over-medication and watch for those. If you begin to see them, then the client works with the doctor to start reducing her dosage until, hopefully, it is all gone.

Most anti-depressants cause changes in the way the brain works chemically, and stopping them–especially cold turkey–can often have severe negative effects. With SSRI’s, as the client began to produce posterior 10Hz alpha, natural release of serotonin increased and they were able to back off the medication without the usual related pain. I’ve also seen low-alpha clients who did not reduce the meds as they began to be able to hold the alpha state themselves and went from being anxious and unable to sleep to being depressed and unable to get out of bed.

There’s very little research on the EEG effects of individual drugs–which of course no one ever receives anymore–much less the combined effects of the huge number of potential combinations of drugs.

Any neurotransmitter or other chemical in the brain has a range of blood levels within which they support high function. When the level of that chemical is either too low or too high, performance falls off, though often in different ways. A brain that produces little EC alpha, for example, probably shows low levels of serotonin. Taking an SSRI drug will artificially increase availability of serotonin in the synapses, hopefully into the desired range. Training the brain to increase its ability to produce alpha will also have an effect increasing serotonin–since it is a normal result of increased alpha. Either one by itself could be very helpful in terms of performance, but doing both at the same time, it would be easy to push past the peak performance level. They you can either stop doing the NF, if the client really wants to keep taking the med, or start cutting back on the dosage of the SSRI.

Toward the end of my time working with clients in Atlanta, we began to screen out of training clients who came in on 4 or more psycho-active medications, because we simply didn’t have much success with them. I know of others, probably some on this list, who do work with even more heavily medicated people. In my opinion, if a client is on 3 (e.g. stimulant, anti-depressant, anti-convulsant), few–if any–physicians can tell you anything about how they interact, because there’s simply no literature (at least there wasn’t when I was looking) on such a combination. They are the equivalent of a chemical baseball bat.

I would not include chemotherapy in the same category with other medications. Chemotherapy is a slow poisoning of the body, and it slows the brain significantly. I guess if I were going to train someone doing chemo, I would focus on trying to keep alpha peak up and reducing slowwave amplitudes.

Source: https://brain-traine...l-training-m-z/

My personal recommendation would be doing a whole brain training specifically aiming at your symptoms/goals rather than a deep state training like TAG Sync. I don't see why medication should interfere with the effect of the training; certain substances might make it harder or easier to do a certain protocol i guess. However what you should consider is that neurofeedback itself can have a strong impact on your mental state. So if you're dealing with anything severe like anxiety, suicidality, phobias or even psychosis (not that i know any of your meds), make sure to have supervision (by both, the guy prescribing the meds and a NFB trainer) on your training because there might be some crossreaction between the meds and the training. For example even only one week of the whole brain training + HEG made me alot more sensitive to stimulating supps&meds. The guy from brain-trainer that did the assesment basicly told me I will see a change in the way the meds act and over time should be able to reduce the dosage as my brain will learn to produce the neurotransmitters themselves.

 

I haven't read anything NFB on working with people suffering psychosis etc, but it would be interesting since this is sure a great challenge in psychotherapy in general.


Edited by VastEmptiness, 02 March 2015 - 01:43 AM.


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#120 xls

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 06:34 AM

I interpret the connection as being that when global broad-band synchrony is present, it means that the system as a whole is calm, as distant points are synchronised, which implies that perturbations of the system are at a minimum. This correlates with the state of non-narrative awareness experienced during pure TAG synchrony. Usually the brain has all sorts of narratives and desires constantly rippling and distorting the dynamics of the structure, like many chaotic waves in a body of water, or a shoal of fish being attacked by several predators. This constant and multi-seeded activity disrupts the synchronisation and therefore also the optimisation of criticality within the dynamical network. When the system is 'quiet' and the noise of various seeds competing for resonance dies down, a single perturbation can ripple throughout the entire network. This is the essence of mindfulness; one-pointed attention which acts as a potent amplification of awareness. I think it is also why insights often arise spontaneously during meditation - the subtle movement can ripple into consciousness once the cacophony of habitual thought dies down.

 

In silence, the brain naturally tends towards synchrony, like water in an empty swimming pool. The sensitivity and criticality of the network are then at their peak. The phase resets that occur during training become more frequent as time goes on, beyond the neurofeedback process itself. This makes sense, because as I said in an earlier post, certain central brain networks with widespread hubs are being stimulated and strengthened, so these distant points are more likely to tend towards synchrony as the increased integration speeds the process at which the mind resynchronizes (regains optimal criticality), which is the basis of awareness, or more technically, the integration of information. This fits in with mine and umop's experience of heightened awareness and greatly heightened meditative ability.

 

Now I want to offer some of my wilder speculations on the subject. First of all, the buddhist model of mental health as freedom from attachments and aversions fits in with this model of neural criticality, in that an attachment or aversion is a 'sticking point' within the criticality of the network, which disrupts the ability of the network (and thus also behaviour/thoughts/emotions etc) to adapt to both internal and external stimuli. This causes a rift and disrupts the synchrony of the brain as a whole, as these points resist integration into the wider network. As such it becomes a kind of anchor around which thought/emotion/behaviour patterns crystallize. I'm thinking of repressed/traumatic memories in particular. The ultimate aim of many psychotherapies is the bringing to consciousness of previously unconscious memories in order to integrate these aspects of the self-construct. Once integrated, they essentially dissolve, and the stickiness of thought, emotion and behaviour dissolve with it. These are inherently unconscious, as they resist integration, yet they still influence the behaviour of the network in their disintegration, like a protruding rock in a river causing a rift in the flow. The successful use of TAG synchrony training in treating both addictions (which are essentially extreme attachments) and reintegrating traumatic events corroborates this theory. As such, attachments, aversions, addictions and traumas are pockets of desynchronisation which ripple outwards and influence the structure of the network as a whole, as local parts of the structural whole tend to adapt to their neighbours. Since these attractors refuse to be integrated, they cause the network as a whole to adapt to them, in turn reducing the criticality of the network-as-a-whole and it's ability to adapt to novel internal/external information.

 

What I'm thinking of specifically here is the most common addiction of all - that of our self-construct. This is the attractor field around which the majority of our behaviours, thoughts and emotions revolve around, and thus a limitation on our entire evolution. Likewise, the dogmas we hold (of which the self and its sovereignty are a subset) are pockets of desynchrony around which brain networks then organise, which delimit the wider possibilities of the thoughts we can entertain, the emotions we can feel, and the actions we can take. Although these seeds of desynchronisation are necessary for thought (think of the assumptions which lie behind every thought), too many of them brings a certain incoherency, chaos and confusion to the mind, and each additional sticking-point closes off the possibilities of dynamical restructuring and behavioural adaptation. So, what I think TAG synchrony and ultimately, enlightenment, correspond to in systems terms is something like the transient and permanent (respectively) dissolution of fixed attractor fields in the brain aka total integration. As the mindbrain rests in this state more and more, it bolsters the networks which enable it to do so, allowing the brain to adapt to an attractor-less (less sticky) state, and also expanding the depth (degree to which information percolates) and flexibility of the mind. This fits in with both mine and umop's experience (as he reported above) of increased mental flexibility, decreased attachments and better meditation, which is essentially the spontaneous and self-organising restructuring of the mind to stimuli.

.

The significance of this for our personal happiness, as well as our intellectual abilities, is profound. Why our happiness? Think of what makes us happy. When something goes according to plan, when we achieve something we've been aiming at for a long time, when we have a great conversation with a friend, when we're in the flow of creativity, when an insight binds the disparate threads of thought into something unified, when you open yourself completely to a lover and they reciprocate in kind, when you lose yourself to music and so on... What do all these have in common? They are instances of increased integration of one kind or another! Likewise, what makes us unhappy... rejection, failing to do something we aimed at, arguments, being denigrated etc... all instances of disintegration (think cognitive dissonance), which would be represented in the brain as neural signatures which refuse to be integrated, which on the psychological level refers to non-acceptance. Ben Goertzel's model of happiness as the 'feeling of increasing integration' relates here. This picture fits with the Buddhist model of suffering as caused by attachment and aversions, which as I speculated above correspond to desynchronisation within a network, or overly sticky attractors. This also explains why deep meditative states feel so blissful, and are also experienced while doing some form of gamma-synchrony training - the mind/brain integrating with itself is a naturally blissful experience. My experience with TAGsync so far is that I am steadily becoming more flexible, and my self-construct is somewhat weakening in its grip on my mind. I feel this because I have less self-referential thoughts, and my mind is more free to wander about other things without the neurotic, habitual and unprovoked evaluation in terms of my 'self'.

 

 

One of the best posts I've read from longecity!

 

I can only imagine the creativity one gains from this. Seems like the integration of all thoughts, memories, knowledge, etc. into a cohesive system would explode your creativity. The integration would allow for an easy expression of complexity simplified into a single unit...expressed in whatever form chosen, whether music, writing, dancing, really basically anything. I think people have a "sixth sense" if someone is internally conflicted and are somewhat put-off by it, and they enjoy the beauty of a functional unit. What comes to mind especially is a lack of confidence, which, based off of this theory, is only a symptom of disintegration and not any specific object but isntead the effects of a dysfunctional unit. Even someone expressing internal conflict but confidently is pleasing.

Another thing that comes to mind is the simple, understated, calm manner of speech "professional meditators" and "zen-masters" speak in. It may not be entirely a cultural or "role-playing" mannerism, but instead an effect of integration. Capitalistic-mindsetted Westerners find this calm manner perhaps un-relatable, irritating, or accuse of "fakeness".







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: theta, alpha, gamma, synchrony, neurofeedback, bipolar, training, ultralow, frequency, self-regulation

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