11 replies to this topic

[takrib]

Hello, I am new here and I think I have a bit of an odd question, but it has somewhat an effect on my life. I think sometimes my face looks a bit angry unintentionally. I am an emotional person at times wearing my heart on my sleeve, but mostly reserved in public and have never gotten into trouble with the law, relationships, etc. I am not the happiest person, but I don't want to be either because I find some sadness healthy and helps to be compassionate. When I am out in public I'm not a person always smiling, I mostly don't want any attention. My neutral face I guess though is sometimes perceived as angry I believe. Why do I think this, well sometimes some people are uncomfortable around me even if I am just going about my business. Also I have been pulled over by the police a few times although I was always following the rules, except one time I wasn't wearing a seatbelt and got a 130$ ticket. I am a minority male and I have no points on my license, have never gotten in trouble with the law, and have a college degree. Still it is annoying, and I do get nervous around the police after a few times they would yell at me or follow me.

I have been going to the doctors last couple months to try to narrow down what is mostly causing this problem with my visage. The doctors mostly find nothing, except I do have gut problems and a bad back. I have been taking their medications for those but seems unrelated to helping how I look, although probiotics do seem to make me feel better. I have had some sleeping issues so my sleep doctor put me on melatonin/bright light therapy. I have seen therapists, and they have not helped much either. They tell me to try to fake it (like smiling) until I make it, but I'm not very good at that, and my smiles seemed forced. They offer antidepressants, but I don't feel I need them because I feel fine about myself and my life, its just dealing with others that I am still working on. Also I think the sides will effect my other health issues so I am looking towards supplements. I mean I pretty much just want to study all day and find work, and I don't care much for the other sociable parts of life at this point.

Recently, I've found stuff on my own through this wonderful forum that offers at least a bit of relief. I regularly take multivitamin/vitamin-D/probiotics/sam-e. But today I added to my stack, 1G magnesium/lysine and N-A-G and I felt like a bit of haze lift over my face, like I could open my eyes a little more. I also felt less irritable or nervous around the policeman that makes his rounds (and checks on me That's why I feel this problem is due to an imbalance or is a physical problem. Like when I dont feel good, my face automatically goes sour and I don't even notice it. When I take the right supplements, I feel a haze lifts over a bit but I am too dumb to know the science behind it!

Does anyone know like what condition this is or what it is called so I can better to describe it to even the professionals I see because they haven't helped much or seem to understand. I am working hard to change this with bright light therapy, trying to think positively etc. but I feel the right supplements will help me. I worry what I take now won't last long, since that feeling only lasts a couple hours and also isn't particularly strong, but is noticeable. For the meantime I will continue and not try to up the dosage too much. Does anyone know what other supplements I can take that will help this condition too? I'm thinking of trying phenibut or picamilion maybe it will continue to help if anyone else has tried it and knows if it will help. Thanks for reading.

Edited by takrib, 31 March 2014 - 12:45 AM.

[blood]

I do understand what you are talking about.

In a nutshell, when your face is at rest - and you are not necessarily experiencing any strong emotions - other people seem to perceive that you are angry/ pissed off/ snobbish/ sullen/ grumpy/ whatever.

There is a phrase in popular culture for this - it is referred to as "bitch face" (in females at least; not sure if there is a specific descriptive phrase for the phenomenon in men.)

It seems to afflict many folks, particularly introverts.

Link: http://www.dailylife...0312-1uttr.html

... I have the face that launched a thousand nosey, patronising comments. You see, I am afflicted with ‘bitch face’, a non-rare and non-debilitating condition that means when my face is in repose and I’m pondering important questions like what nut would I wipe from the world’s surface if I was given the power (answer: brazil nut) I actually look like I’ve recently been told I lost my job, have five months to live and my puppy has died in freak brazil nut avalanche. Turns out if I’m not actively focusing on plastering on a grin my expression runs the gamut all the way from ‘grumpy’ to ‘sullen’ with a few detours to ‘pissed off’ and ‘unimpressed’ for variety. If you also have bitch face you’ve probably had people stop you on the street to annoyingly inform you “It takes more muscles to frown than to smile...”)

I don't think this has been researched by psychologists, but it is definitely a real phenomenon.

I have a mild case of this myself. The one thing I noticed seemed to reduce it was SAMe. I noticed this accidentally when I began taking SAMe in the morning, and perceived (don't think it was my imagination!) a change in people's (strangers') reactions to me.

[machete234]

[takrib]

Thanks for the responses Blood and Machete. I am not that well informed about bitch face, but yes I know that is usually with women. The thing is that some women do that intentionally to show that they are not amused or want you out of their presence. For this reason around some women I am very careful not to make more than a glance of eye contact if that at all. After all right now in my life, my focus is not trying to date or whatnot, but more get control over myself, my life, and future work.

So I think my problem is a little different. Like at my high school graduation, my sister remarked that I should have looked a bit happier or something though she barely knows me as is. Being young, darker skinned (can be seen as many different ethnicities), an introvert, a bit of a loner, dress covered up, and more serious than playful when I am working or contemplating as you mentioned, it has its issues like the double takes from police officers or strange questions people ask me. My town is blue collar, a bit economically depressed, and has little diversity I should mentioned as well (but my family has a house here so will be here at least until we can sell it). In my classes, some of the loudmouths (older men) try to make borderline-racist jokes, so I usually try to avoid them instead of put them in their place. When our class goes out for drinks though, I think my face lightens up a lot more, though I turn red and then they make fun of that lol. The issue is not so bad though, it gives me more of an excuse to stay inside and study, but in the long term it is something I will need to work on, though so far therapists, doctors, clergy, etc don't give any advice or scientific explanations that will help me. After all it is my problem, not theirs.

I am wondering if its chemical though but its hard to tell, as every other doctor just tries to push prozac on me without trying to get to the root of the issue, not to mention that some ssris will exacerbate my GI problems. Thats why I was wondering why magnesium/lysine/NAG specifically felt it changed my visage, though it doesn't last for long I believe. I take SAM-e and it helps a little but pretty mild. Curcumin, rhodiala as well but doesn't seem to be lasting effect as the aforementioned. For my GI problems, actually the doctor prescribed me pamelor which he didn't notify me that it is an antidepressant, anyway it doesn't seem to be helping the way I look or my mood besides perhaps a couple hours in the morning. I am wondering if it was particularly some alcohol abuse when I was younger maybe messed up some receptors or something, I don't know though I barely drink as of now and eat pretty healthily.

So if anyone has any more supplements that might help more long term that would be great. I got some phenibut and agmantine so I'll experiment with those this week. I'm pretty sure I'll never be one of those always smiley, happy people though try as I might!

Edited by takrib, 31 March 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[pheanix997]

I too, have Angry-Bitchface-Syndrome. I usually get suspicious stares from people when I'm out and about, especially from policeman as you described. In high school there were people who said I looked like I wanted to blow up the school. They were shocked to find that deep down I'm a sensitive, compassionate person who's actually friendly to people I feel comfortable being myself around. And that therein lies my problem - my bitch face only yields when I'm with people I'm certain won't reject me or judge me or disapprove of me, which is quite abnormal as most people are generally open and friendly with others even before they are accepted.

To my mind, it stems from social anxiety or perhaps an "avoidant" orientation. When we walk around with a feeling of fear or discomfort of being around others, this emotion can't fail but to show on our faces. Our bodies will always betray what our mind is feeling - our true nature. The eyes are the windows to the soul.

For me, the bitch face is probably a defence mechanism I erect like porcupine spikes to keep others at a distance. You said you don't care much for the social aspect of life, and that attitude is what is probably manifesting on your face . It's not the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't mean you're actually an asshole (as comically illustrated in the vide). For example, I'm a shy person and after so many years of showing nervousness, fear, and anxiety around other people (and feeling irrationally ashamed of it), I'd unconsciously constructed the bitch face as a way to say "I'll reject you before you reject me." And it's not something that's permanent; being aware of it is the first step.

Don't think supplements can help you here to get at the underlying problem, which may be to find your own joy and security in life and let that manifest itself externally. Perhaps supplements or medication could help, but it's not tackling the core issue, which is one's basic orientation to life.

Maybe a face massage would help to loosen the jaw?

Edited by pheanix997, 31 March 2014 - 11:46 PM.

[pheanix997]

Oh... and it's also important not to dwell on this too much. Some people are more introverted than others, and thus less inclined to appear "outwardly happy," even though they might truly be content with their life. Think of some great philosophers or poets or artists or scientists... do all of them walk around looking happy-go-lucky all the time? No, because everybody is different; intellectuals will tend to appear less socially gregarious than feeler types; some people simply harbour more internal pain than others because of more trying life circumstances; and some could just simply look a certain way that might appear superficially off-putting to others. It doesn't really mean anything, as long as you accept yourself and know who you are.

That said, to get on with the world and succeed in relationships and work, some basic social skills is necessary. How you appear to the world isn't everything, but it might help you reach your goals and live the kind of life you want to live. So although you might not want to "force" a smile everyday - which could actually make you feel worse if you do it chronically, and might seem incongruous to others - it'll always benefit you to be mindful of how you're coming across to others.

There's a book called Social Intelligence by Daniel Goldman... you might find it helpful

Edited by pheanix997, 31 March 2014 - 11:59 PM.

[takrib]

Thanks for the posts pheanix, glad to know I'm not alone! Yes this kind of seems like the new normal in some places after the turn of the century. I see you are in Toronto which is a thriving multicultural city, but in some places there is a deep-seated resentment of what is going on around the world. For instance, in some economically depressed towns, they have lost factories, industries, livelihoods and the jobs are sent overseas. And then minorities represent a small demographic but many are in positions of respect such as doctor, lawyer, businessman etc. Some of it is frustration or ignorance, but whatever it is will be what it is, so I need to be the one to change, to be better and that's why I'm here. I'm just like any other broke-college student American kid, but I get asked if I speak English or what country I'm from all the time. Like you, I'm also asked if I have bad intentions before say renting a flat, or applying for a job, trying to get on an airplane, and get profiled in the city I grew up in all the time (surprised they don't know all know me by now lol). I had some highly educated african and palestinian friends but most have moved out or stay out of the spotlight. Thats maybe a plan down the road but my family is rooted here for now (and for the last 15 years); also I want to be able to live anywhere regardless of my environment or if times are tough, otherwise it'll be a pretty nomadic lifestyle.

As far as sociability, it is probably a bit of anxiety, but also for other little problems too. I most likely have some ADHD, so its hard for me to concentrate or focus when I'm having fun or around too many people. So in this time of my life, I love learning and trying to better myself which seems to be positively correlated to the time I spend alone. Since most of my friends have moved away, it is difficult to make new friends, to have the time and energy to build those relationships, and also to fight to keep the relationships alive when they begin to wither away, or move away whatever. After a while, you are just like well I'm just going to get a dog and a good book lol! There is also so many interesting things going on now like longecity, so it is better to spend time on productive stuff like that. It is not the best time to be introverted though. Susan Cain, wrote the Power of Introverts, and said "Introverts today are roughly where women were 50 years ago. Time for a quiet revolution!" At my college where I am the youngest in the class, I mentioned I was an introvert the first day, and now it seems like some other classmates are paying more attention to me than before although I just want to learn and study quietly. Asking me to speak up, or mocking whatever I do. Meeting them at social functions, and they begin to become a little uncomfortable although I barely speak because the conversation (beer, rating the women around us, gossiping, schaudenfrade, angry politics etc) is not really my cup of tea. Though throughout most of my day I am not angry or irritable...it's just my face! Being foreign looking and introverted in towns that lack diversity, I guess they aren't used to it. That's why I'm here and trying to find out the science of what's going on. My therapists and doctors dont seem to understand, but many are too overwhelmed with patients, their own active social lives, or the cute intern down the hall to care anyway (grey's anatomy come to life), so I realize its more about me trying to fix myself.

I'm guessing perhaps it has to do with like body inflammation, low serotonin, low blood flow to the head, a bit of anxiety, I don't know. I've seen many doctors in the last months and many just mentioned antidepressants with the first few minutes of talking to me and not even trying to understand the problem. I don't blame them because they are probably overworked and want to get to next patient, but at least try to act like they are listening or explain why they chose that. Anyway like I mentioned before I guess I am on one right now for the "gut issues" that the doctor didnt even mention was an antidepressant. Still since I've been taking it anyway, it seems no positive changes, mostly making me feel worse. I don't feel I am depressed, mostly just introverted and excited to study/learn about our rapidly changing world. Though I guess I'll just try it out to see if it makes a difference and quit it if it keeps on making me feel crap.

Or I'm wondering if it was in younger days, a couple of years of benzo and alcohol abuse might have messed up some brain chemistry, though it wasn't too heavy no blackouts, hardcore drugs, illegal stuff, etc and the last couple years I've been clean. Or just saggy skin on the face like Christopher Walken, Jon Voight, JT walsh, or Woody Allen, or the latter of when he smiles looks funny so I'm not the only one. But I'm interested more in the science of what is physically/chemically happening in the body but I'm too dumb at science to know, like is it cortisol, adrenals, neurotransmitters, fear or whatever? Losing elasticity, collagen of the skin though I'm still in my mid-20's?

And then I'm also wondering what people take to loosen up legally and that won't harm their health. Unfortunately I don't live in Washington or Colorado yet , don't want to drink much anymore, and don't want to smoke or do anything else bad for health. I've tried many noots including a lot of the older racetams (so far piracetam, ani, phenyl, prami, noopept), although the colors brighten, most of the effects are short lived (I've quit choline though) or possible to cause hypomania. Magnesium, lysine, and NAG seem to help the most but I've only taken moderate doses and will perhaps try to take attack doses since perhaps there is a deficiency there. Many anxiolytic herbs seem inconsistent. Trying phenibut and agmantine this week as well but just look like occasional solutions. Hope I find some stuff to loosen up, not too much though because I have a lot of studying and exams to do. I know there are many out there like me who's just trying to live their life without bothering anybody else or being bothered.

Edited by takrib, 01 April 2014 - 05:48 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Bacopa may be good for this, I would find myself unintentionally smiling when using it daily.

Schisandra is also a good one, it seems to give a healthy appearance and better blood flow to the skin.

[GoingPrimal]

I have a good friend who has a case of the "bitch face", and she said that it helps her fit in while in Paris studying abroad... So I think we all can agree that you moving to Paris is your best bet 

 

In actuality though, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think it's actually fairly common. Why don't you try making a conscious effort at half-smiling during the day? I notice that when I'm deep in thought (which is 98% of the time) my face sometimes scrunches up, so I make sure to try a little half-smile to fix it. Just think of something nice or a pleasant memory and relax your face.

[blood]

... To my mind, it stems from social anxiety or perhaps an "avoidant" orientation. When we walk around with a feeling of fear or discomfort of being around others, this emotion can't fail but to show on our faces. Our bodies will always betray what our mind is feeling - our true nature. The eyes are the windows to the soul.

For me, the bitch face is probably a defence mechanism I erect like porcupine spikes to keep others at a distance. You said you don't care much for the social aspect of life, and that attitude is what is probably manifesting on your face . It's not the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't mean you're actually an asshole (as comically illustrated in the vide). For example, I'm a shy person and after so many years of showing nervousness, fear, and anxiety around other people (and feeling irrationally ashamed of it), I'd unconsciously constructed the bitch face as a way to say "I'll reject you before you reject me." And it's not something that's permanent; being aware of it is the first step...
 

 

I think there is some truth in what you are saying (above). I am mildly socially avoidant & somewhat uncomfortable in crowds. This probably stems from some traumatic social experiences in childhood (where I learned how screwed up & cruel people can be). In crowded situations my bitch face, or 'asshole face', can manifest itself. A non-drug approach (awareness/consciousness, relaxation exercises, etc) is probably the best approach. Though, I do suspect that beta-blockers (e.g., propranolol) would work for this. They produce a physical relaxation effect, and have been shown to tone down the excitability of the amygdala (the fear centre of our brains). At work I find I am more often asked out for drinks at the end of the day if I've taken beta-blockers earlier that day... I think they somewhat relax me (& my face), and allow me to be more sociable, so I find myself enjoying conversations more, which presumably makes me more pleasant to be around. Of course, I think it is insane that I need to take a drug to render my personality acceptable to certain people.

[chris106]

 

Why this hasn't been upvoted more is beyond me. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time...bitch.

Edited by chris106, 30 May 2014 - 09:06 AM.

[Boopy!]

welcome to the resting bitch face I think it's called,  go check it out.   People joke about this but it does exist.   I have a thinner type face,  as I am thin to begin with,  but at least my mouth has always naturally turned up.   But I know exactly what you mean,   having a sense of humor about the resting bitch face seems to help:)