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Which would you prefer, intelligence or immortality?

smart or life

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Poll: Priority of Longecity community (70 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you prefer to find a chemical that can provide immortality of intelligence of the level of NZT48? Note, the assumption here is that one cannot lead to the other - it is one or the other forever, no getting smart and finding drug for immortality etc

  1. I want immortality (37 votes [50.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.68%

  2. I want super intelligence (36 votes [49.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.32%

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#1 PWAIN

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:00 AM


So hypothetically, you have a choice, either immortality of super intelligence. You cannot have both EVER so you must choose ONE. No choosing super intelligence and saying we'll then find a way to immortality and no choosing immortality and saying one day we'll find a way to super intelligence. The idea is to get an idea of what is most important to you.

The reason for this poll is that I feel that these forums seem to be more and more focused on nootropics than anything life extending. I certainly see it in the whole group buy stuff. Anything vaguely promising gets a lot of attention despite most chemicals that have been tried having poor to mixed results at best.

Anyway, I just wanted to guage the level of interest in the 2 options.
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#2 Jeoshua

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:11 AM

The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long.

I would rather be an all knowing being, than one that lives forever and never quite understands the world they live in.

Of course, the restrictions are rather arbitrary here, since an immortal being would one day learn all there is to know, NZT-like drugs non-withstanding.

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#3 Luminosity

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:05 AM

I'd rather be rich, healthy, beautiful, and invulnerable than either one of those. I am very intelligent, but after fifty years I'm still waiting for that to pay off. Although I'm afraid to die, living forever in this body doesn't look that good to me as a disabled, aging woman.
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#4 Adaptogen

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:06 AM

living forever allows for an eternity to attain wisdom, knowledge, and pinnacle happiness. I am content enough with my current intelligence, and fairly optimistic that I can achieve what I desire, given that I dedicate enough time to the pursuit.

#5 Babychris

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:50 PM

More than everything else, I want to recover my (one)self, because as used to say Hippocrate "If we were One (united) in our body and one (united) in our soul , we would never been suffering" sorry if the translation is bad.

#6 sthira

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:43 PM

Immortality! (pst: I'm already pretty dumb -- which ain't so bad, and in an insane society being kinda airheaded is an ok coping mechanism)

#7 BobSeitz

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:05 AM

PWAIN, for me, you've raised an intriguing point: that there seems to be about as much interest in super-intelligence as there is in immortality. As a contributor to the Prometheus Society's Gift of Fire, I've had more than a passing interest in both of these topics. In 1999, I set out to find out why child prodigies don't mature into adult geniuses more often than they do. It led me into a fascinating odyssey through the super-high-IQ world. To cut to the chase:
(1) Most adults with ultra-high IQs have to perform all the grunt work that everyone else does. Some exceptions are individuals like Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Jobs, Nathan Myrhvold, Stephen Wolfram and and others who make it big when they're young enough that they can take a chance on cutting-edge ventures that make it into the big-time. The remainder have to plod through a lock-stepped educational system geared to the average child, select a field of study, and then hire themselves out for service like everyone else. Once on the job, all the vicissitudes of working environments rear their ugly heads. Their superior capabilities tend to advance their careers, but politics ("not what you know but who knows you" what church claims their memberships, etc.), gamesmanship ("looking good to their superiors", jealous competitors sabotaging their reputations), and above all, the drip, drip drip, of daily duties slow them down like bicycles in sand.
(2) Children with above-average IQs up to about the 1-an-1,000 level are in a "sweet spot" in which they're smarter than your average bear but not so smart that they can't be accommodated by programs for the gifted. But children much above that level tend to be too far out of sync with local educational systems and with their age peers that, shockingly, many of them don't graduate from college, much less go on for their doctorates. One lovely lady who began reading at two, who was reading her mother's Pearl Buck novels at five, and who was acting out the balcony scene. from Romeo and Juliet from the school fire escape at six was vilified by a jealous classmate who was smart, but not as smart as this lovely child. She also mentioned the difficulty of narrowing her interests even temporarily to negotiate graduate school.
(3) As Ruth Duskin Feldman relates in her book, "Whatever Happened to the Quiz Kids?: Perils and Profits of Growing Up Gifted", the hyper-gifted suffer from an embarrassment of riches: they can be entranced with fascinating topics that it's hard for them to settle down to a single, narrow topic of research in graduate school. They may become jacks of all trades, masters of none.
(4) Another tripwire for the super-smart is probably expectations. They're expected to perform great works, but they generally don't know where to start, and they're very sensitive, self-conscious, and self-critical about their early works. Ellen Winner discusses the need for mentoring.
As Ecclesiastes 9:11 puts it,
"I returned and saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
I thought when I began my quest in 1999, and I continue to think today that we're wasting terribly our best and brightest. Psychologists have noted over and over that we take great pains to advance the intellectually challenged, but we scatter our richest seed untended on uneven ground. The population count of Periclean Athens is a pale shadow of that of any modern nation, yet look at its legacy! Europe in its era of patron support gave us geniuses like Mozart, Beethoven, Newton and Gauss, compared to Europe in the Dark Ages.
"For all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: 'It might have been.'" (John Greenleaf Whittier)
In my book, Craig Venter is an example of what someone very, very smart can do if he/she makes it to the point where she/he can deliver on his/her promise.
It might be interesting to consider the fates of the most precocious children of which I'm aware.
John Stuart Mill is an example of someone who had a force-fed childhood, but who managed as an adult to become one of the guiding lights of the 19th century.
A sad example of genius-denied would, I should think, be William James Sidis.
The most precocious prodigy of which I've ever heard would be the child with the pseudonym, "Adam Konantovich" detailed in "Nature's Gambit: child Prodigies and the Development of Human t ", written by David Henry Feldman and Lynn T. Goldsmith. "Adam Konantovich" (Marnen Laibow-Koser) spoke his first word at three months, his first sentence at four months, and was speaking in grammatically correct sentences at six months. At three-and-a-half, "he was reported to read, write, speak several languages, study mathematics, and compose for the guitar." (page 34) "At age7-8 was attending the MIT computer lab doing programming; obtained a perfect score on the Stanford-Binet at age of about 8; the term 'omnibus prodigy' was coined to describe him, as his talents were not bounded within a single domain." Marnen is currently "a composer, musician, and computer geek", and if you'd like to know him better, you can find him here on Facebook
Another super-prodigy was Merrill Kenneth Wolf, 1931-2011. He spoke his first word at 4 months, uttered his first sentence at 6 months ("Put on another record."), and was reading at the age of one. He entered first grade at 6, but was remanded to home-schooling because he "asked too many questions and volunteered too many answers". He entered Western Reserve University at the age of 10, transferring to Yale at 12 and graduating from there at 14. He wanted to become a composer, but as explained here, he was forced to become an M. D., graduating from the Western Reserve medical school at the age of 21. From there, he went on to become a Professor of the Anatomy of the Brain at the Harvard Medical School.
A third super-prodigy would have to be Michael Kearney, highlighted in Ellen Winner's book, "Gifted Children: Myths and Realities." Michael spoke his first word ("Daddy") at four months, his first sentence at six months ("I have a left ear infection"), and was reading "Pat, the Bunny" and "Horton Hears a Who" at the age of 10 months. For his first birthday, Michael asked for some Dr. Seuss books from his Kearney grandparents (private communication) Michael graduated from the University of South Alabama with a 3.56 average, and a major in anthropology at the age of 10. He received his first Master's degree in chemistry from Middle Tennessee State University at the age of 14, and his second Master's Degree in computer science from Vanderbilt at the age of 18. His sister, Maeghan, graduated with a B. S. degree from Middle Tennessee State University at the age of 16 the following day. (On an outing with the Kearneys to the aquarium in Chattanooga, Maeghan told my wife and me that she had trouble remembering names, and I've felt better about my slippery memory for monikers ever since(:-)) She's a darling.)
This list wouldn't be complete without mentioning Christopher Michael Langan and his wife, Gina. These links tell their story.
Another characteristic of our brightest is, I think, that it's lonely at the top. There's a certain measure of wistfulness, maybe, over how comforting it would be to a part of the common comity. They sense a camaraderie among lesser lights, and hanker to be a part of it. As adults, a number of them have devoted more than minor effort to "fitting in".
It's also true that there must be a joy to being this bright. These are people who can carry on scintillating conversations with themselves, and who can strike to the hearts of problems and sometimes, find their solutions without outside help. They don't (I think) have to try to distinguish themselves from the commonality to feel, in some way, unique.
One interesting factoid: as of a few years ago, most of the members of the Prometheus and Mega Societies didn't seem to be focused on longevity. I think Chris and Gina are exceptions, but to the best of my knowledge (which isn't all that up-to-date), most "Prometheans" and "Megans" have been focused like the rest of us on their daily lives.
Maybe it's time to call upon these whiz-gizzes to help crack the conundrums of aging.

Whew! Did I get wrapped around the axle or what? (:-))
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#8 Brafarality

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:27 PM

I had an embarrassing and now concluded affiliation/membership with 2 of the super high IQ societies- it was during a time of low self esteem in my life. The psychic pendulum has never swung so far in my life as it has from my membership in those organizations. Yet, after all, I don't mean to disrespect them or their members. It is just not where I want to be at this point. I have never respected high intelligence. I have only ever respected creativity and originality. And, while high intelligence does go hand in hand with true genius/originality in some instances, most of the greatest geniuses in history were not of the Super High IQ kind. I am not sure if high IQ past a certain point actually lessens the chances of originality or creative contribution, but it certainly seems that way.

There are Mega/Titan/Prometheus members who would trounce Van Gogh, Shakespeare, Picasso, Cezanne, Wordsworth, Pound, Joyce, McCartney, Lennon, Beethoven, Pollock, and Miro on an IQ test, but could not, in their wildest dreams, and will never ever ever ever ever touch the great masters in their originality and true genius.

The two are not even comparable. I would choose immortality over high intelligence without question.

I almost have a degree of contempt for super high IQ now. The knee jerk response is to suggest that I am jealous but, unfortunately, I have to live down for all time that I was actually a member of one of those societies - something I wish I could take back. Now to browse some abstract expressionism and ancient art - nothing makes me embrace the primordial so much as the bitter taste in my mouth from even thinking about IQ.

But, if the question was - Immortality or Van Gogh-level Artistry, that would be a different story. I would probably go with Van Gogh.

Edited by Brafarality, 04 April 2014 - 12:42 PM.

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#9 Major Legend

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:25 PM

PWAIN, for me, you've raised an intriguing point: that there seems to be about as much interest in super-intelligence as there is in immortality. As a contributor to the Prometheus Society's Gift of Fire, I've had more than a passing interest in both of these topics. In 1999, I set out to find out why child prodigies don't mature into adult geniuses more often than they do. It led me into a fascinating odyssey through the super-high-IQ world. To cut to the chase:
(1) Most adults with ultra-high IQs have to perform all the grunt work that everyone else does. Some exceptions are individuals like Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Jobs, Nathan Myrhvold, Stephen Wolfram and and others who make it big when they're young enough that they can take a chance on cutting-edge ventures that make it into the big-time. The remainder have to plod through a lock-stepped educational system geared to the average child, select a field of study, and then hire themselves out for service like everyone else. Once on the job, all the vicissitudes of working environments rear their ugly heads. Their superior capabilities tend to advance their careers, but politics ("not what you know but who knows you" what church claims their memberships, etc.), gamesmanship ("looking good to their superiors", jealous competitors sabotaging their reputations), and above all, the drip, drip drip, of daily duties slow them down like bicycles in sand.
(2) Children with above-average IQs up to about the 1-an-1,000 level are in a "sweet spot" in which they're smarter than your average bear but not so smart that they can't be accommodated by programs for the gifted. But children much above that level tend to be too far out of sync with local educational systems and with their age peers that, shockingly, many of them don't graduate from college, much less go on for their doctorates. One lovely lady who began reading at two, who was reading her mother's Pearl Buck novels at five, and who was acting out the balcony scene. from Romeo and Juliet from the school fire escape at six was vilified by a jealous classmate who was smart, but not as smart as this lovely child. She also mentioned the difficulty of narrowing her interests even temporarily to negotiate graduate school.
(3) As Ruth Duskin Feldman relates in her book, "Whatever Happened to the Quiz Kids?: Perils and Profits of Growing Up Gifted", the hyper-gifted suffer from an embarrassment of riches: they can be entranced with fascinating topics that it's hard for them to settle down to a single, narrow topic of research in graduate school. They may become jacks of all trades, masters of none.
(4) Another tripwire for the super-smart is probably expectations. They're expected to perform great works, but they generally don't know where to start, and they're very sensitive, self-conscious, and self-critical about their early works. Ellen Winner discusses the need for mentoring.
As Ecclesiastes 9:11 puts it,
"I returned and saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
I thought when I began my quest in 1999, and I continue to think today that we're wasting terribly our best and brightest. Psychologists have noted over and over that we take great pains to advance the intellectually challenged, but we scatter our richest seed untended on uneven ground. The population count of Periclean Athens is a pale shadow of that of any modern nation, yet look at its legacy! Europe in its era of patron support gave us geniuses like Mozart, Beethoven, Newton and Gauss, compared to Europe in the Dark Ages.
"For all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: 'It might have been.'" (John Greenleaf Whittier)
In my book, Craig Venter is an example of what someone very, very smart can do if he/she makes it to the point where she/he can deliver on his/her promise.
It might be interesting to consider the fates of the most precocious children of which I'm aware.
John Stuart Mill is an example of someone who had a force-fed childhood, but who managed as an adult to become one of the guiding lights of the 19th century.
A sad example of genius-denied would, I should think, be William James Sidis.
The most precocious prodigy of which I've ever heard would be the child with the pseudonym, "Adam Konantovich" detailed in "Nature's Gambit: child Prodigies and the Development of Human t ", written by David Henry Feldman and Lynn T. Goldsmith. "Adam Konantovich" (Marnen Laibow-Koser) spoke his first word at three months, his first sentence at four months, and was speaking in grammatically correct sentences at six months. At three-and-a-half, "he was reported to read, write, speak several languages, study mathematics, and compose for the guitar." (page 34) "At age7-8 was attending the MIT computer lab doing programming; obtained a perfect score on the Stanford-Binet at age of about 8; the term 'omnibus prodigy' was coined to describe him, as his talents were not bounded within a single domain." Marnen is currently "a composer, musician, and computer geek", and if you'd like to know him better, you can find him here on Facebook
Another super-prodigy was Merrill Kenneth Wolf, 1931-2011. He spoke his first word at 4 months, uttered his first sentence at 6 months ("Put on another record."), and was reading at the age of one. He entered first grade at 6, but was remanded to home-schooling because he "asked too many questions and volunteered too many answers". He entered Western Reserve University at the age of 10, transferring to Yale at 12 and graduating from there at 14. He wanted to become a composer, but as explained here, he was forced to become an M. D., graduating from the Western Reserve medical school at the age of 21. From there, he went on to become a Professor of the Anatomy of the Brain at the Harvard Medical School.
A third super-prodigy would have to be Michael Kearney, highlighted in Ellen Winner's book, "Gifted Children: Myths and Realities." Michael spoke his first word ("Daddy") at four months, his first sentence at six months ("I have a left ear infection"), and was reading "Pat, the Bunny" and "Horton Hears a Who" at the age of 10 months. For his first birthday, Michael asked for some Dr. Seuss books from his Kearney grandparents (private communication) Michael graduated from the University of South Alabama with a 3.56 average, and a major in anthropology at the age of 10. He received his first Master's degree in chemistry from Middle Tennessee State University at the age of 14, and his second Master's Degree in computer science from Vanderbilt at the age of 18. His sister, Maeghan, graduated with a B. S. degree from Middle Tennessee State University at the age of 16 the following day. (On an outing with the Kearneys to the aquarium in Chattanooga, Maeghan told my wife and me that she had trouble remembering names, and I've felt better about my slippery memory for monikers ever since(:-)) She's a darling.)
This list wouldn't be complete without mentioning Christopher Michael Langan and his wife, Gina. These links tell their story.
Another characteristic of our brightest is, I think, that it's lonely at the top. There's a certain measure of wistfulness, maybe, over how comforting it would be to a part of the common comity. They sense a camaraderie among lesser lights, and hanker to be a part of it. As adults, a number of them have devoted more than minor effort to "fitting in".
It's also true that there must be a joy to being this bright. These are people who can carry on scintillating conversations with themselves, and who can strike to the hearts of problems and sometimes, find their solutions without outside help. They don't (I think) have to try to distinguish themselves from the commonality to feel, in some way, unique.
One interesting factoid: as of a few years ago, most of the members of the Prometheus and Mega Societies didn't seem to be focused on longevity. I think Chris and Gina are exceptions, but to the best of my knowledge (which isn't all that up-to-date), most "Prometheans" and "Megans" have been focused like the rest of us on their daily lives.
Maybe it's time to call upon these whiz-gizzes to help crack the conundrums of aging.

Whew! Did I get wrapped around the axle or what? (:-))


Bob - That's an awesome write up. You've summed up pretty much of why our "think too much types", don't exactly translate into real world success and happiness. Slightly brighter than average neurotypicals have the biggest advantage and gets the most done in society, when you are a genius or savant class than that you basically have the entirety of humanity stacked against you. Funny you mention Bill Gate or Steve Jobs, whilst these are smart people they are not only on the intellectual sweet spot of not being so bright its debilitating, also they were very very lucky having being in the right time and right place, and not to mention extremely hard-working.

An important point to add is exceptionally gifted people are also usually much more mature intellectually compared with theirs peers, deriving them of much needed support and social experience when they need it the most, without the support of society most people will become lonely, withdrawn and depressed to make focused use of their gifted as there is no emotional reward.

Reminds me of the Ferrari Theory I came up with ages ago, the driver driving his recently bought Ferrari asks a simple question about the how the engines actually worked, the passenger a very bright but computer science friend of mine gave a complicated answer, the driver's response? "man you think too much", but then who was the passenger to argue, he wasn't the one driving the Ferrari.

Brafra - I think those are examples of exceptional neuro typicals who associate amazing memory and IQ to creativity. I would consider true high intelligence to be someone like Walt Disney, somebody capable of creating or coming up with ideas from scratch. An scientist who can come up with new formulas and break the convention of thinking is what impresses me. These people you talk about are high IQ because they are exactly the peak of those conventions we are bound to, but true intelligence goes beyond that. To me true intelligence IS creativity and that goes way beyond just remembering a bunch of poems of shake sphere or solving a puzzle.

To alot of extent, you can argue that creativity which I deem to be real high value, than pristine cognitive function is in fact a result of cognitive dysfunction, and an inability to adhere to social conventions, remember most of our brains are actually built on the basis of sociability, meaning humans are all in fact savants, but savants when it comes to dealing and sensing other people. Irregularities in brain chemistry create different though patterns early on, one that could make the person an outcast and fail at life, but also one that will make the person see things very differently from the neuro typicals. Maybe its not always the case, but sometimes I feel as if everything ever done worthwhile in our human history has been done from slightly weird people, from tesla, edison, jobs, gates, disney, einstein, and countless, countless filmmakers, artists, crafts people, engineers and so on, alot of these people are awkward and wouldn't fit very well in a frat, mensa, scientific party.

The common theme is these are all people who were in fact told they were rubbish, and later on proved everyone wrong by a combination of luck and hard work. The reason they were called rubbish was becuase they couldn't fit into society, but its exactly because their brains are wired wrong that's allowed everyone of those people to create things that advance the human race, and I can't actually help thinking these mutations is why we even have our civilization in the first place.

Sometimes I walk around seven eleven, and realize the logistics and design of everything that makes up to this place and this layout is so genius and so well thought out, that nobody ever normal or one of those ivy league people would figure out, it probably took some dyslexic or autistic guy one look, and he realized where everything should be after spending days alone in a room without social contact (just saying its possible lol).

I would take immortality with my current intelligence, because everything takes time, time to practice, time to have fun, time to do things you love, time to build something from scratch, time to research. 99% of most things is just work and application of previous knowledge. The extra 1% moves humanity forward, but nobody escapes the fact that everything costs time, and so little we have of it in life.

Think of the opportunities and all the things you would never experience because most of us are going to age or die before we get to try other things, there is enough time in life to specialise in one or two things, a few if you are lucky, imagine the thousands of possibilities, perspectives and the ways things could play out by pure randomness that you would never ever get to see or experience, simply because within a few decades you will age and you will die. It's selfish I know, its even greedy, but there is just so much I would like to see and do.

Edited by Major Legend, 04 April 2014 - 04:22 PM.

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#10 Brafarality

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:28 AM

Hi, Major Legend,
Agree on a whole bunch of your points, but just can't help the anti-intellectual mindset I've been in the past several years. It's an emotional thing. No way to reason or think my way out of it, not that I want to, anyway!
PeaceWord

#11 BobSeitz

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 02:02 AM

"Brafarality" and "Major Legend", thanks very much for your feedback.

"Brafarality", in Ellen Winner's book, Gifted Children: Myths and Realities, she has a chapter (Chapter 4, pg. 55) entitled, "Artistic and Musical Children". In this chapter, she observes that artistic giftedness and musical giftedness tend to be independent of IQ. She says that this isn't quite as true for musical prodigies. With them, she distinguishes between performers and composers. Musical composition appears to be intensely interesting to several of the smartest people I've known. A friend of mine, with an M. D. and a Ph. D. (who passed through the Prometheus Society during his residency), had Merrill Kenneth Wolf as his anatomy-of-the-brain instructor in medical school. The two struck up a personal friendship based upon their common (but unfulfilled) dream of becoming musical composers, and their love of classical music. (My friend didn't know the story behind Ken Wolf's precocity although my friend was also very precocious in his own right.) Of course, one of the problems with becoming a classical composer these days is that people aren't buying much in the way of minuets and scherzos. If you want to capture their musical ears, I guess you have to write something like Frozen's "Let It Go!', or Mary Poppins', "A Spoonful of Sugar Makes the Medicine Go Down (In a Most Delightful Way)".
.
Personally, I consider Shakespeare to be one of the smartest men in English history... in a class by himself. His IQ is estimated at 200, and look at his vocabulary! Your can almost tell you're reading Shakespeare without being told. He had such an ability to use common words in uncommon ways! He's also cited for his insights into human nature and human psychology.
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Another poet that for me has that kind of Shakespearean ability to handle common words uncommonly is Emily Dickenson. Emily Dickenson's poetry would be lost to us were it not for her sister's gathering up her giftings and publishing them.
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I suspect that there are a number of outstanding poets and authors that don't make it into the mainstream... a lot of blossoms in the dust. My sister and I were taken with the poetry of a woman from Vinegar Bend, Alabama: Vivian Smallwood. Vivien and her twin sister lived their lives and died their deaths in their little frame house in a suburb of Mobile, Alabama. She was well under five foot tall, with vivid blue eyes. I got to spend a couple of hours with her when my wife was on a birding trip to Dauphin Island, near Mobile.
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My interest in tracking down grown-up prodigies after I retired stemmed from my own life experiences, and from my desire make a contribution. My take on creativity is that, between our jobs and our families, most of us don't have a chance. During my working years, I was busy out the gazoo from breakfast to bedtime. I had a high-profile job that demanded well over 40 hours a week, and I had the duties that all us Daddy's, husbands, and home-owners have. I was always working on the lawn or filling out paperwork or doing my part for Christmases, birthdays, and children's activities to the point that I could never quite catch up At the end of each year, I'd generally have some vacation I had to use or lose, and during that week off, I'd come up with creative ideas. I'd tell myself that I'd shoehorn in some time for that after I went back to work, but come the Monday after New Year's Day, I'd be back in the same old rat race. With a wife, two children, and a mortgage, I didn't feel that I dared jump over the fence and try to start my own business, or seek a career in academia. Not only would I be gambling current income: I'd also be risking my future retirement income. Meanwhile, as my salary rose, my time for creative work regarding my immediate assignments fell.
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If this were true for me, it would also be true for everyone else. And it makes sense. people and organizations don't hire people to be geniuses or to be creative. They hire people to do the grunt work so that they can do the higher-level work themselves. Universities might be an exception, but some pretty bad doyens and doyennes find academic tenure at universities and the political infighting can be fierce. Also, universities have come to expect their engineering and scientific faculty to support themselves by chasing down grants and contracts. Their university affiliation basically gives them a hunting license to pursue outside funding. Then, too, during the post-Apollo drawdown, as President Johnson and then President Nixon diverted funds for the war in Viet Nam and other projects, somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 technical personnel joined the ranks of the unemployed, and the U. S. went through an aerospace/engineering Depression from the late 60's through the mid-70's.
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These are all reasons why neither you nor I could afford to "do our things" and, during our working years, boldly go where no one has gone before.
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That all changes after retirement. By retirement age, that all changes. By retirement age, if we're lucky, our children will have grown and flown, and we'll only be supporting ourselves, and if we're lucky, our spouses. But by that time, historically, people have been so old and decrepit that they don't have that much time left. And that's where Longecity and the alleviation of aging comes in. Retirement basically means laying up enough treasure that investment income from it can make us independently... if not wealthy, at least very comfortably fixed. If we have decades to centuries of retirement, then we have world enough and time to explore our creative ideas.
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This brings up the concern that if we start to live much longer, our retirement systems will no longer be able to support us and we'll have to go back to work. Surprisingly, the answer to that is no. We may have work a few more years but given a few more years in the work force, we can build a large enough nest-egg that we can draw on it (with cost-of-living raises to cover inflation) in perpetuity. How can that be possible? The basic formula for estimating the growth of a retirement fund to which we contribute a percentage s (for "saving") of our salary each year is given by:
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Total Retirement Savings (in $, €, ¥, or what have you) = s /r (2rt/0.72 - 1).
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Suppose that we contribute 15% of our salary to our retirement fund each year. In that case, s becomes 0.15.
r is the our expected after tax, after-inflation rate of return on our investments. The typical after-inflation, after-tax rate of return used in retirement calculations in a tax-free account is 4% a year, so this is the number we'll use for r. In that case, the above formula becomes
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Total Retirement Savings = 0.15/0.04(2t/18 - 1) = 3.75(2t/18 - 1).
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After we retire, we'll want start drawing an annual income stream from our laid-up treasure. If we assume that we can continue to collect the same 4% that we've been making during our working years, our formula becomes:
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Annual Retirement Income = 15% of our average annual salary(2t/18 - 1).
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If we set t at 36 years, our Annual Inflation-Adjusted Retirement income will be 15% (22 - 1) = 45% of our average annual income during our working years. That probably isn't enough to cover exigencies. Suppose we work 54 years. In that case, our Annual Inflation-Adjusted Retirement income will be 15% (23 - 1) = 105% of our average annual income during our working years.
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After correcting for inflation, the U. S. Stock market has returned about 6% per year for the past 200 years. If we planned on investing our retirement funds in, say, an S&P 500 index fund and used that 6% rate of return to estimate our retirement income, we would get:
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Total Retirement Savings = 0.15/0.06(2t/12 - 1) = 2.5(2t/12 - 1).
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Now the picture looks even better. If we assume that we can continue to draw after-tax, after-inflation income at the rate of 6% a year, then
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Annual Retirement Income = 15% of our average annual salary(2t/12 - 1).
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Now we can draw our 105% of our average annual salary after working 36 years. And remember, during our working years, not only do we have to support our children, we have to set aside part of our income for retirement savings, not to mention commuting, life insurance and disability insurance.
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But what about the fact that we can't all be rich... can we?
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Maybe we can. Suppose that 50 years from now, 100,000,000 Americans were retired, drawing $50,000 (in today's dollars) apiece a year. That would total up to $5 trillion a year. But the U. S. GDP in 2064 should be around $50 trillion. 100,000,000 Americans would constitute about ¼th of the American population. 10% of the U. S. annual income shouldn't be all that large a fraction of the American pie.
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But not everybody can be retired... can they?
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Clearly, not everyone can be retired, but...
(1) Retirement should be a time for creative contributions to society rather than a time to play golf and immerse one's self in virtual reality games, and (2) there should be a lot of advances in robotics in the time it would take for a ponderable fraction of the population to amass retirement capital if aging could be reversed tomorrow.
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My personal suspicion is that if we could seemingly convert 80-year-olds into 20-year-olds tomorrow, it would take a decade or two before mainstream medicine would want to endorse such a rejuvenation technique in terms of long-term safety and efficacy guarantees. (I hope we get a chance to put that to the test.)
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I know. This should be in a separate thread, but I'm thinking maybe this should be in several threads.
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Getting back to the plot, I think quite a few people pass through these ultra-high IQ societies for a year or two on their way to the rest of their lives.
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Most of the super-intelligent men and women I met were a delight to be around, but of course, not quite all of them. I hope you didn't have an unhappy experience with them. It's bad enough when someone ordinary gets sarcastic or unfriendly. I should think that it would be much worse if they were extra-smart. A great mind, when it's accompanied by a great heart, is a splendid thing, but when it's not, I should think that it could be traumatic. As von Goethe put it:
"Love's heralds both, the powers proclaiming,
Which, aye creative, us enfold,
May then within my bosom flaming,
Inspire the mind, confused and cold,
Which frets itself through blunted senses
As though by sharpest fetter-smart,
O God, soothe Thou my thoughts bewildered,
Enlighten Thou my needy heart."
(Faust, from The Song of Pater Profundus)
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"Major Legend", in making a perfect score on the pre-1995 SAT, Paul Allen would have been one of 5 kids out of the million who took the SAT that years who got a perfect score... about 1 in 200,000. Dr. Ron Hoeflin has estimated that at that time about one in three college-age students took the SAT, making the eligible pool 3,000,000, and the odds of getting a perfect score 1 in 600,000. Bill Gates made a 1,590 on the SAT, so he's also in the stratosphere. Apparently, a lot of corporate CEO's had high childhood IQs.
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On the other hand, psychologist Anna Rowe studied a group of U. S. scientists who were one rung on the ladder below Nobel Prize winners. Most of them didn't have histories of childhood precocity, nor did they plan to become scientists when they grew up. Her research included the psychology of people of superior intellect, alcoholism and its effect on creative artists and creativity. I thought of this in the light of your discussion of the connection between creativity and "slight weirdness".

Two people whom I should think are performing in the domain of the genius are Aubrey de Gray and Robert Kane Pappas.

One little tidbit: on the Hoeflin tests that used to be the "Open Sesame" to the Prometheus and Mega societies, several of the questions require creative, outside-the-box thinking to arrive at the answers.
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#12 Major Legend

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:36 PM

Fascinating, I wish I had the privilege to meet some of these ultra smart people - in my life whenever I've met those kind of people they have generally been dismissive of me due to my lack of academic background, and thus my lack of ability to express in the way they can. It's also highly likely they can sense my lack of knowledge and understanding in certain topics. I would love to meet somebody smart who would indulge me in their world. I do agree that intelligence often does come with creativity, I just don't think the two necessarily come together, and people often mistake one for another.


Also would it be plausible that there are certain genetic mutations that make somebodies childhood IQ high early in life, but revert lower later in life? It seems cognitive decline varies from person to person, independent of the original intelligence level. Some people start off very creative or intelligent in their 20s, but then lose it rapidly when they reach their 40s, though often experience covers up the loss, there are others who don't seem to lose their cognitive abilities as much as their peers. There is an excessive focus on childhood talent I think, but the fact remains very intelligent people can remain unfocused and undiscovered if the circumstances didn't fall on their side early on in life.



The truth is I think there isn't 1 answer to this. I did not know Bill Gates and Paul Allen's IQ's were in the stratosphere, but I guess it makes sense due to their extensive ability in programming, not to mention the amount of time they spent on the terminals of yesteryear, but I would guess that Steve Job's IQ wouldn't be as high, and I would also guess that a lot leaders, politicians and manager type's IQ is not in the stratosphere. What I am saying is these people have leverage to do what they want and contribute to society for better or worst, but having a high IQ does not seem to be a necessity, and to a large extent "luck" plays into this, like you said many people simply don't have a chance. Don't live in a family that can afford your higher education, well tough luck smart kid. Its entirely possible there was a Bill Gates somewhere at exactly the time, but he was just in China, or Texas even and he couldn't get access to the computer revolution like Bill and Paul did, as well as the educational opportunities.

You can also argue that Bill and Paul got really lucky, because IBM really screwed up on the licensing deal with Microsoft, after that Bill and Paul pretty much just had to ride the wave, before that they had a few nice programs and made a good buck but it would have stayed small, not to mention DOS (Microsoft's Original PC Operating System) wasn't even designed by Microsoft but bought from some other guy. Microsoft despite super high IQ gates hasn't really done that much in terms of innovation compared to Steve Jobs who continuously bet his future on crazy ideas.

Don't get me wrong Bill Gates is amazing, but I'm just throwing a stone out there to say that he had alot more luck than people think.

Is intelligence an advantage in life in general? No doubt about that, but in the face of time, money, savvy, education, social networks, health, courage, risk taking....I don't know to me it always looks to me every human being has so much more potential than whatever it is he or she is doing right now, if only he or she was brave enough (also another inherited trait to a degree, risk taking and courage) to go out there and take the opportunity.

The limited resources mentality was evolved for when humans did not live in large societies with more chances and replays, they would get one chance or be dead. If you want something you may have to just get rejected 99 times for that one yes, this means maximum efficiency in society has only some part to do in intelligence.

Often what we seek to achieve doesn't take a genius it just takes a lot of recklessness and sacrifice.

That could be a reason why so many of these gifted people don't get very far, and why when all those elements above come together those people drive complete paradigm shifts

Edited by Major Legend, 06 April 2014 - 01:03 PM.

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#13 gamesguru

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 10:04 PM

Often what we seek to achieve doesn't take a genius it just takes a lot of recklessness and sacrifice.

 

Max Planck: "New scientific ideas never spring from a communal body, however organized, but rather from THE HEAD OF AN INDIVIDUALLY INSPIRED RESEARCHER WHO STRUGGLES WITH HIS PROBLEMS IN LONELY THOUGHT AND

UNITES ALL HIS THOUGHT ON ONE SINGLE POINT which is his whole world for the moment."

 

Edison: "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

"If we did all the things we are capable of, we would literally astound ourselves."

 

 

I feel I could accomplish anything with unlimited intelligence, even keeping a tight schedule (few decades).  Conversely, there are many things I couldn't accomplish with regular intelligence, even given unlimited but not infinite time.

It's like super strength vs invisibility.  Sure you could stalk girls with invisibility, but you could rape them with strength.  Or you could just inject a D1 agonist to her accumbens, achieve a similar effect, and save your strength for later. :ph34r:

 

 


Edited by gamesguru, 21 September 2015 - 10:07 PM.

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#14 adamh

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 08:01 PM

I think many people confuse intelligence with talent or creativity. Artistic geniuses rarely score super high on standardized iq tests. There are so many qualities grouped together under the general heading of "intelligence" that its like saying all people from boston are ______. 

 

Is an eidetic memory a sign of high iq? Is it being able to express yourself in poetry or prose? There is also social intelligence, people who instinctively are able to make other like them and to negotiate interpersonal relationships. There are people who can play chess blindfolded, perhaps with several opponents, are they geniuses? There are many types of talents mental as well as physical.

 

I'll take immortality as long as it comes with excellent health. I'm ok with the iq i already have.


Edited by adamh, 08 May 2016 - 08:02 PM.


#15 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 09:50 PM

 Conversely, there are many things I couldn't accomplish with regular intelligence, even given unlimited but not infinite time.

 

 

That does not make any sense: unlimited and infinite is the same.



#16 gamesguru

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Posted 08 May 2016 - 10:05 PM

Unlimited as in ~30 billion years, on a human time scale. Aldo I just imagine me diminishing returns (logarithmic or logistic), like what will you think up in a trillion years you can't in a billion? Less than 1000x, maaabye 3x.

But good luck preventing the big crunch, our universe isn't unlimited either... okay, you caught me using bad wording, sorry.

#17 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 02:49 AM

Jesus, what a fantastic thread. 

 

I believe people who "suffer" (what can be concluded after reading this highly informative thread) from high intelligence essentially experience an existential angst and high level of confusion, with all the knowledge they posses, that can't be utilized effectively in society. Sure, university is one thing; but, that only lasts for so long. Which, leads me to believe that people with a high IQ lack meaning in such an intellectually demeaning society. I for one idolize certain people with high IQ's, as seen in the culmination of such great talents in the Manhattan project. I only wish people with high IQ's don't become angsty about humanity, as I've noticed this sort of trend in reading some high IQ chats. Moreso, I hope society can utilize and facilitate such great talent. Talking about physics journals and a sort of circle jerk about how lonely a high IQ person is leads to no benefit for the people involved and humanity as a whole.

 

On a strange note and if I were "God". I would clone such people as Von Neumann's, Wittgenstein's, Bertrand Russell's, or so on and provide the best conditions available to them to help solve deep and complex problems. We need these people; but, what if they think that they don't need us?



#18 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 09:52 PM

 okay, you caught me using bad wording, sorry.

 

Not a big deal. Just don't stalk or rape girls in the future.


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#19 gamesguru

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 10:29 PM

rape OR stalk?
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#20 fairy

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 08:13 PM

Honestly I would settle for a gf.

>tfw no gf


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#21 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 07:28 PM

Would you rather have high testosterone while having no desire or need for sex or would you rather be hypersexual and have access to all the sexual partners you'd ever want?



#22 Forever21

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:13 PM

Just immortality? I'd go for "immortality and a little stupid" over regular "immortality".



#23 gamesguru

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 09:18 PM

would you rather have a tongue to enjoy the taste of a home cooked meal or be a robot who swallows a capsule as cars take gasoline and oil?  it's a matter of preference, really.  sometimes i do wish i could turn the dial down a bit.  how about a big dick or a lot of motivation?  sorry, i thought we were talking about things you had to be born with.   well, turning the dial down can be achieved... by fasting, not working out, not smoking and by drinking copious amounts of green tea.  rhodiola, bacopa or anything serotonergic would make erections trickier and also prolong latency sometimes by up to 300%.  something which directly blocks testosterone synthesis, such as ketoconazole or glycyrrhetinic acid, would also nicely fit the bill of the mythical salt petre about which the above posters are so incredulous.  testosterone inhibitors however cause deleterious effects (just from having lower T), so i would just go with rhodiola and fasting, as an example, before turning to more extreme measures



#24 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 03:51 AM

What would you prefer, losing your sense of manliness to getting raped by a woman with a strapon or losing your sense of manliness to getting raped by another man?



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#25 William Sterog

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 11:35 AM

Existence is our exile and nothingness our home. Immortality would be the cruelest damnation; intelligence, through making life in this world tolerable, a blessing.




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