6 replies to this topic

[knockout_mice]

Could you recommend some atypical stimulants besides caffeine/nicotine which go well with monoamine oxidase inhibitors?

With MAOIs/RIMAs you can't safely raise norepinephrine and serotonin levels... So amphetamines, and other classical stimulants are out.

Edited by knockout_mice, 05 April 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[mrd1]

I don't think you'll ever find a stimulant that can be safely taken with a MAOi. MAOis are so effective at keeping keeping things stuck in the synaptic cleft and any stimulant would place you at extreme risk of heart failure, death, psychosis, etc. 

[Ritchie]

I don't think you'll ever find a stimulant that can be safely taken with a MAOi. MAOis are so effective at keeping keeping things stuck in the synaptic cleft and any stimulant would place you at extreme risk of heart failure, death, psychosis, etc. 

I second this. I would strongly suggest the OP would get of MAOIs due to dietary restrictions. If the OP is looking to make stimulants "stronger", I imagine taking a higher dose would be safer.

[FW900]

The OP said atypical stimulant first of all. Secondly, his rationale for combining a stimulant + an MAOI might be to mitigate neurotoxicity or tolerance rather than to potentiate the drug. A higher dosage would more than likely worsen both neurotoxicity concerns and would not be sustainable long term due to tolerance issues. I'm not recommending any of this, and I agree with both Ritchie and mrd1, that it probably is best to err on the side of caution and avoid the combination altogether. This being said, there are many (theoretical) reasons to use the combination and dismissing it altogether is premature and unfounded.

 

'3alarmlampscooter' has some (mainly anecdotal) posts on the subject of combining a stimulant + an MAOI in the PRL-8-58 thread I believe.

 

It all depends on the MAOI, whether you have something to monitor and then manage your heart rate and blood pressure, and the dosages. In miniscule amounts, it should not amount to much harm (read below). Psychosis and long term mental effects that could arise from the combination seems to be the most worrisome. 

 

Study: Although D-methamphetamine primarily is limited to mostly CNS stimulation and is largely lacking the peripheral effects such as the cardiovascular issues of D-amphetamine, it is safe in conjunction with selegiline, an MAOI, and actually reduces cardiovascular effects:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14636968

 

These results indicate that selegiline can be used safely even in combination with methamphetamine, as the cardiovascular effects of the drug combination were no greater than either drug alone, and were actually reduced at the higher selegiline dose.

 

At least in the case of selegiline ([important] which behaves very differently than many other MAOIs), the claim that taking a stimulant with it will cause heart failure or death is not supported by much evidence.

[NeuroNootropic]

In rats, Selegiline dampens amphetamine-induced dopamine release:

 

Amphetamine-induced increase in striatal extracellular dopamine level was attenuated by one day and by chronic (21 days) treatment with selegiline (0.25 mg kg−1, s.c.).

→ source (external link)

 

This of course doesn't entail that Selegiline and Amphetamine is a safe combo in humans.

 

I've used Rasagiline, 1 mg everyday, with Modafinil, 100 mg everyday, for about a month without any overstimulation. That said, you shouldn't take this as a generalization as I have chronic fatigue and am always understimulated. This combo eliminated my chronic fatigue for about 4 weeks before it lost its efficacy, however, I didn't build tolerance to the increased motivation and focus. A side effect I noticed was increased anhedonia. After I started experimenting with my dosages I found 1 mg of Rasagiline 3-5x a week to be helpful in reducing the combo-induced anhedonia, but it did not actually help treat my baseline anhedonia. Emotions were also greatly dampened, almost zombie-like.

 

I've also used Wellbutrin 150 mg XL once a day and Selegiline 5 mg once a day for a month and a half before it lost its efficacy. This was a much better combo than the aforementioned one as it enhanced emotions and reduced baseline anhedonia while still enhancing motivation and focus. Also, this combo greatly helped with learning new concepts whereas the R+M combo did not.

Edited by NeuroNootropic, 04 May 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[knockout_mice]

Thanks for your replies, but it's a little bit late for me, since i'm not on RIMAs (moclobemide) or MAOIs (selegiline) anymore. Moclobemide made me lazy after two months, Selegiline lost its effectiveness and caused muscle twitches after three months. But the latter is a perfect creativity enhancer.

 

In Hungary - where I live - there's no perscripton amphetamine available, only street amph, which is likely to be a racemic mixture with a maximum of 20% purity, or some RC sold as "speed". There's no street meth in Hungary. Most people don't even know what meth is, maybe from Breaking Bad, heh.

 

The other option is Ritalin, which works, but the half-life is too short. I would rather try the Daytrana (methylphenidate transdermal patch), which isn't available.

 

But these guys are classical, monoaminergic stimulants, and I'd like to avoid them.

 

Wellbutrin seems effective and well-tolerated, but I'm concerned about the nicotine receptor antagonist properties and its supposed downstream neurotoxicity. 

 

Bupropion caused mitochondrial cytochrome c release and activated caspases 9, 8, and 3 in a time-dependent manner. The reduction in cell viability was significantly inhibited by a caspase 3 inhibitor. Bupropion also induced the mRNA expression of the death receptors DR4 (TRAILR1) and DR5 (TRAILR2). However, bupropion did not increase the level of cellular oxidative stress. Taken together, our data indicate that bupropion activates caspase 3 through the induction of endoplasmic reticulum stress responses and activation of JNK, and consequently induces apoptotic cell death in SH-SY5Y cells.

http://www.sciencedi...300483X11000746

 

Other options: Phenylpiracetam, Coluracetam, Modafinil, maybe PRL-8-58. What do you think?

 

Edited by knockout_mice, 04 May 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[protoject]

Coluracetam sounds reasonable. Noopept could be a good option if you are the type to get the desired psychostimulant effects from it. Same could be said for citicoline, again if you respond to it in the desired fashion.