27 replies to this topic

[ta5]

The typical suggested daily dose of Magnesium Threonate is only 144mg.

 

I understand it's supposedly absorbed better especially into the brain and nervous system. My question is...

 

If I normally take 500mg of Magnesium as a Magnesium chelate (glycinate or taurate), how much magnesium from Magnesium Threonate would be equivalent to that? I think the answer is: Probably about same amount, 500mg. (That would be 6944mg Magnesium Threonate. Never mind that it would cost a fortune.)

 

Agree? Disagree?

 

Thanks.

[celebes]

Magnesium threonate doesn't really bring more magnesium to the brain than other forms, rather the threonate moiety has its own beneficial effects on the nervous system. If you want to be magnesium replete keep taking the bulk of the RDA as chelate.

[Jeoshua]

Actually, Threonic Acid does not have any known effects on the nervous system. At all. The only other system of the body it has any effect on is DKK expression, which may help it to lower the incidence of male pattern baldness. Anything else is just a guess, as they say, as no studies have shown any effects other than that one. Pure L-Threonate may also be good for chelating minerals, and minerals already chelated with L-Threonate are known to be well absorbed into the body and cause almost no side effects. That doesn't mean they're well used, just that taking Magnesium L-Threonate won't make you sick.

 

The claims of its increased absorption into the body are somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that it's so damned expensive, and extremely low in elemental magnesium by weight.

 

Basically, there are better forms of Magnesium out there.

[celebes]

Actually, Threonic Acid does not have any known effects on the nervous system. At all.

 

 

Loss of Dickkopf-1 restores neurogenesis in old age and counteracts cognitive decline

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23395445

 

 

Induction of the Wnt Antagonist Dickkopf-1 Is Involved in Stress-Induced Hippocampal Damage

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3029367/

 

 

Dickkopf 1 mediates glucocorticoid-induced changes in human neural progenitor cell proliferation and differentiation

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22048647

 

 

Induction of Dickkopf-1, a negative modulator of the Wnt pathway, is associated with neuronal degeneration in Alzheimer's brain

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15229249

 

 

The Wnt Pathway in Mood Disorders

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3468878/

 

 

A novel role of the WNT-dishevelled-GSK3β signaling cascade in the mouse nucleus accumbens in a social defeat model of depression

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21697359

 

 

Wnt signalling regulates adult hippocampal neurogenesis

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16251967

 

 

Wnt Signaling Enhances Neurogenesis and Improves Neurological Function after Focal Ischemic Injury

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3398894/

 

 

Increased Dickkopf-1 expression in transgenic mouse models of neurodegenerative disease

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20050968

 

 

Induction of the Wnt inhibitor, Dickkopf-1, is associated with neurodegeneration related to temporal lobe epilepsy

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17437412

 

 

Reactive astrocytes and Wnt/β-catenin signaling link nigrostriatal injury to repair in the MPTP model of Parkinson’s disease

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3558878/

 

 

Uncovering novel actors in astrocyte–neuron crosstalk in Parkinson’s disease: the Wnt/β-catenin signaling cascade as the common final pathway for neuroprotection and self-repair

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3660182/

 

 

It's effects on bone resorption are via the same mechanism:

 

The effects of Dickkopf-1 antibody on metaphyseal bone and implant fixation under different loading conditions

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21329773

 

 

 

 

You might try knowing what you're talking about.

 

Edited by celebes, 18 April 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Okay, so DKK inhibition would counteract the negative effects of it's induction. So far I see nothing to suggest that it would have any of the positive mental effects that are claimed. Beta Amyloid proteins? Really? Unless you already have Alzheimers disease, lowering their incidence isn't going to be nootropic, or neuroprotective. Not only that, but if one already has Alzheimers Disease, getting rid of the Beta Amyloid doesn't reverse the damage done by the disease. Is inhibiting an enzyme which inhibits another enzyme that is associated with a disease in a way that doesn't reverse its progression enough to call something a nootropic? I say, no.

 

But is that slim hope that it might possibly have enough for LEF to charge insane prices for it with high hopes that people will empty their pocketbooks and run around calling it the best nootropic on the market? You better believe it.

Edited by Jeoshua, 18 April 2014 - 05:10 PM.

[celebes]

If you had any interest in learning about reality you might have seen that DKK inhibition increases basal Wnt signalling which raises hippocampal neurogenesis. If you can't see the positive mental effects of that there really is no hope for you.

[Jeoshua]

If you can't see that talking to anyone at all in that manner is no way to make a point, then there really is no hope for you.

[celebes]

Again you demonstrate that you're less interested in the facts than you are your ego. I'm sure I'm not the first person to be annoyed by that.

[Jeoshua]

No, I'm less interested in being insulted constantly by someone, no matter what they might know. My ego doesn't enter into it. I'm not concerned with how you view me, but rather do not appreciate being insulted. Would you continue a conversation with someone who was just throwing insults at you, no matter what other information they might bring to the table?

 

I do not demand that you look up to me as I never felt deserving of any such adulation, but I do demand some basic human decency to engage in conversation with someone. And you are not providing anything except a few minor points surrounded by insult after insult.

 

No, don't bother. Take this thread. Its yours. Guide people into purchasing a product that you think you have evidence for. I won't be here to argue with you about it, I don't appreciate your tone at all.

 

P.S. Those downvotes? Not me.

Edited by Jeoshua, 18 April 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[celebes]

No, you're right. I went too far.

[Jeoshua]

I'll put it behind me if you will.

 

Now, as to the points there, I did not look as deeply into DKK inhibition as you seem to have done. I was unaware that it had effects in the human brain. However, I still do not feel that the possible downstream benefits of this quite justify the price of Magnesium L-Threonate, and stand by my claim that its increased absorption is not all that stellar, and that overall the supplement is not worth the price. After all, it is just a simple organic molecule which should not be that expensive to synthesize, and its effects on DKK inhibition not withstanding, has no real effects on the brain that could justify that kind of price.

 

It is the expense vs the return that I have a problem with, not any theoretical downstream mechanisms that may lead to some benefit. One could get a lot more effective pricing on their neurogenesis by getting something like ALCAR or Lion's Mane.

[celebes]

I took pregnenolone for the first time today. I don't know what came over me. Sorry.

 

 

Back on topic, there isn't very much that's downstream of Wnt signalling. It's on par with the neurotrophins/Trk agonists and might even be marginally more terminal. It's also the mechanism through which antidepressants (and HDAC inhibitors) induce neurogenesis, which is almost the only reason they're effective at all. Saying it has no real effects on the brain ~apart from DKK inhibition~ or saying that they're theoretical is handwaving in the extreme.

 

$20 a month is expensive for what it is, but it has only been on the market for a year. Lion's Mane is not cheaper than that, far from it, and all the research is in vitro so equally 'theoretical'. ALCAR is better value and better proven but it's modus operandi is synergistic not a replacement. Needless to say it's still cheaper than most antidepressants.

[Ultravioletbllc]

My dose of mag L threo has consistently been 4000mgs = 288mgs elemntal

in 2 split doses early am and around 7-8 pm , Its been an amazing Nootropic for me and Potent Novel NMDA inhibitor and that if no other reason has kept me coming back as the NMDA effect is far more pronounced then with any other form of mag I can find , Ive been intrigued by Magnesium Taurinate but have yet too been able too find it as a solo supplement or as a bulk powder  I have one supplement with Magnesium bonded too an arginine molecule and a taurinate bond ... country life i believe is the manufacturer too bad they dont have pure taurinate

[Ehvam]

My dose of mag L threo has consistently been 4000mgs = 288mgs elemntal

in 2 split doses early am and around 7-8 pm , Its been an amazing Nootropic for me and Potent Novel NMDA inhibitor and that if no other reason has kept me coming back as the NMDA effect is far more pronounced then with any other form of mag I can find , Ive been intrigued by Magnesium Taurinate but have yet too been able too find it as a solo supplement or as a bulk powder  I have one supplement with Magnesium bonded too an arginine molecule and a taurinate bond ... country life i believe is the manufacturer too bad they dont have pure taurinate

 

Isn't nmda inhibition a negative? what benefits are there?

[Steve Zissou]

This stuff is pretty potent. I only need 150mg for a calming sedative effect. Studies have shown that magnesium and serotonin based antidepressants work synergistically, so i have been taking it with tianaptine.

 

Unfortunately sometimes this supplement makes me extremely sedated and this effect can continue into the morning after.

 

I can't imagine taking a 4000 gram dose. Maybe Ill take a 2 gram dose tonight and see what happens.

[Ultravioletbllc]

I have always taken tianeptine with an nmda antagonist stack and I didn't know that the ssri drugs worked synergistically but it makes sense magtein seemed too work in a nice way tianeptine l adrafinil agmatine huperazine and the racetam class

[serp777]

You're basing your logic on a rat study. Rat studies frequently use much higher dosages of brain affecting drugs because rats have substantially higher rates of metabolism.

 

For example, the drug DXM was given to rats at a dosage of 60-70 mg/kg in numerous studies to test the neurological effects of DXM on rats. At 75 Kg human would need to take 5250 mg at the 70 mg to take the same dosage. However, DXM is most likely lethal at dosages around 1500-2000mg, and has very significant neurological effects at dosages of 100-500 mg. The lethal dosage for rats was even higher. something like 100-125mg/kg.

 

Based on this kind of analysis, I would argue that approximately 2-5 %  of the mg/kg ratio is sufficient for achieving the same effects in humans as mice, given that human metabolism is much slower. This would mean that 6944mg* 0.05 = 347.2 mg at the upper echelon or 138.88 mg at the lower end to achieve similar results.  The reason they supply Mg-T at these dosages is because they have accounted for the difference in rat vs human metabolism, and they tend to go more on the safe side to reduce the possibility of negative side effects, and therefore lawsuits.

Edited by serp777, 08 June 2014 - 12:16 AM.

[tunt01]

 65 mg/kg * 6/37 = 10.54 mg/kg for adult humans.  

 

Assuming adult weight of 60 kg = 10.54 mg/kg * 60 kg = 632 mg dose

 

 

[serp777]

 65 mg/kg * 6/37 = 10.54 mg/kg for adult humans.  

 

Assuming adult weight of 60 kg = 10.54 mg/kg * 60 kg = 632 mg dose

 

 

 

 

Seems reasonable; i was mainly just guessing. Of course not all drugs are the same between rats and humans, so that dose is probably +-300mg. It's also possible MgT has buildup effects, and the duration of expose has an impact on what kind of dose you need for that duration to achieve the same effects. Can I ask where you got your source?

[tunt01]

 Can I ask where you got your source?

 

 

 

SOURCE

[serp777]

Thanks

[Ultravioletbllc]

my daily average dose of Magetin is 4000 mgs equaling too 288 mg ELemental MAG

 

I was using Citrate or Glycinate (glycinate seems really counterproductive too me)

 

the local Vitamin shoppe carries the fucking Taurate! and its Cheap so from now on my additional Magnesium needs will be covered by Mag Taurate

[neuralis]

I take 2000 mg-s before going to bed. Makes me nicely sleepy. It's a godsend for my insomnia.

[FocusPocus]

I've been using Mg threonate from absorb health recently. 

I couldnt find any info about daily upper limit.

 

Was wondering if anyone has any suggestions.

 

I've been using 500mg to sleep at night, and 250mg twice in mornings for stimulant induced anxiety.

Not quite working. Thinking of upping the doses. 

 

Is that ok?

[Ultravioletbllc]

I took 2 grams daily =144mg of elemental magnesium

Eventually upped that too 2g bi-daily

There is a memantine like "brain fog" NMDA induction period for around a week it's like um....."memantine light" in the dis associative effects for the first week or so
I noticed a variety of nootropic effects

Clearer vision was noted almost immediately upon my first 1gram dose
This has always continued albeit less pronounced

Short term memory improvements are huge and memory consolidation seems more "efficient" hard too describe sorry but it's like instance retrieval of my memories becomes INSTANT no scratching the beard prodding the brain for a relation too something you just mentally digested win the last month

Verbal fluency and general anxiolytic action are both felt too an extreme degree and I think being calm and relaxed plays a big part especially with or where professional employment / public appearance is concerned


Overall it's a must have for me I do three months on two months off due too cost and don't wanna reach a plateau with it and have it poop out

I always use at as a sort of "supra supp" in that I would always supplement another form of mag with my meals for the day too meet the rda and over,and en on empty stomach I would take it with around 300mg betaine

[penisbreath]

I took 2 grams daily =144mg of elemental magnesium

Eventually upped that too 2g bi-daily

There is a memantine like "brain fog" NMDA induction period for around a week it's like um....."memantine light" in the dis associative effects for the first week or so
I noticed a variety of nootropic effects
 

 

I was wondering what was going on, actually. I've been using Source Naturals Magtein and when I first started it, I felt far more mentally energized and alert. However, some kind of tolerance developed quickly and I started to feel calmer/foggier .. I ran out, since it was a small bottle, but started up again today with 2 caps (~1.2g) and have the most intense brain fog/dissociation, though on the plus side my anxiety is down. 

 

Did the fog re-emerge each time you upped the dose? 

[Ultravioletbllc]

Yes it's just transient though it doesn't appear too be present around the 5-7th day of dosing it gradually lifts probably due too modulation and up regulation ( both were noted too occur in past studies) at the nmda receptor

[Mind_Paralysis]

Yes it's just transient though it doesn't appear too be present around the 5-7th day of dosing it gradually lifts probably due too modulation and up regulation ( both were noted too occur in past studies) at the nmda receptor

 

This really DOES sound an awful lot like "Memantine Lite"!

 

Man, I totally need this stuff in my life - like, a crap-load of it. Methinks me shall be using 3x the daily ordered amount. ; ) NMDA-antagonism, here we go!