14 replies to this topic

[existence]

Hi. I've lurked here for long time but finally joined to seek help for some problems. One problem involves racetams and ACh, but I'm going to start with my simpler problem: testosterone. I know testosterone isn't directly longevity- or nootropic-related, but hopefully this is an appropriate place to ask.

 

After reading The 4-Hour Body I had absolutely amazing results with Tim Ferriss' testosterone regimen (essentially vitamins A & D in the right amounts from the right sources). I thought I had turned my life around. I felt like superman. I was so happy. Then the results slowly wore off and I have no idea why. I'm a 30 year old male.

 

Below are the results of my blood tests. They were all done at the same lab, at the same time of day, on the same day of the week. 

 

Aug 8 2013 (before supplementation)

total testosterone: 440 ng/dL

free testosterone: 12.14 ng/dL

 

October 14 2013 (after starting supplementation)

total testosterone: 1422 ng/dL (actually flagged as too high)

free testosterone: 30.15 ng/dL

 

November 19 2013 (still on supplements)

total testosterone: 721 ng/dL

free testosterone: 14.49 ng/dL

 

February 3 2014 (still on supplements)

total testosterone: 476g ng/dL

free testosterone: 11.52 ng/dL

 

As you can see, it jumped up dramatically in the beginning, then slowly returned almost to where it started from. I don't believe the 1422 number was an error, as I definitely felt the results. My libido was through the roof, as were my confidence and energy levels. These have declined steadily just as the numbers have.

 

Does anyone know why this might have happened or what I should do to correct the problem??

 

I had my cortisol checked at the last 2 lab tests. It was 14 ug/dL Nov 19 and 11 ug/dL Feb 3. I understand these to be normal levels, though I now take supplements to lower it.

 

I have not had DHT checked, but since my total testosterone is low I would not expect high DHT to be the problem.

 

Should I have estrogen levels checked?

 

I thought vitamin D levels might be the problem, as my testosterone decline seemed to correlate with decreasing daylight. But I had it tested in February and it was actually high (73 ng/mL). I even think it was too high for a while after that as I had symptoms of vitamin D poisoning. Could it being too high actually lower testosterone? I tried cutting it out for a couple weeks and felt no change. Now I'm back on it.

 

I tried increasing the vitamins to no effect. I've recently added vitamin E and sauerkraut as per Tim Ferriss' recommendations to no effect.

 

I'll list all the supplements I take, in case one of them could be interfering:

 

-fermented cod liver oil and vitamin-rich butter fat (vitamins A, D, and K)

-regular fish oil

-additional vitamin D

-l-theanine (to lower cortisol)

-phosphatidylserine (to lower cortisol)

-vitamin B complex

-vitamin C

-CoQ10

-zinc

-creatine

-glutamine

-piracetam, acetyl l-carnitine, and citicoline (until recently as they also stopped working after amazing initial results; more on that later...)

 

Sorry for the long post and many questions, but as you can see I have taken a fairly systematic and proactive approach to my health and ended up back where I started. I'm ridiculously frustrated... Thanks in advance. I've really benefited from this group's wisdom over the past couple years.

Edited by existence, 08 April 2014 - 03:57 AM.

[KimberCT]

Try stopping the vitamin A supplementation but keep D.

[nowayout]

Testosterone can fluctuate a lot from one day to the next and even more from morning to afternoon.  Usually evening levels are about half morning levels.  This is all normal.  Was the blood drawn before 10 a.m. each time after a good night's rest?

[Dolph]

Vitamins didn't tripe your testosterone in the first place... Of course not! What a retarded idea...

[lourdaud]

Are you following most of Ferris' advice on diet? If you're eating low-carb that may very well be the cause of your declining T levels. Carb up and you'll probably feel better! Or you could do like Dave Asprey and supplement with both testosterone and thyroid hormones, all while boasting about how good your fat based diet is for "hormonal status"!

[timar]

Vitamins always made me sleepy when I took them at 11 pm. Now since I take them in the morning they have stopped working.

[existence]

Testosterone can fluctuate a lot from one day to the next and even more from morning to afternoon.  Usually evening levels are about half morning levels.  This is all normal.  Was the blood drawn before 10 a.m. each time after a good night's rest?

 

They were all drawn at 8:30 a.m. There could have been a little variation in sleep time, which is a good point, but I don't think it would be enough to account for the massive changes in the levels and for how my energy, confidence, and libido all jumped up dramatically then tapered off over a long time.

Try stopping the vitamin A supplementation but keep D.

 

Interesting, I may give it a shot. Any particular reasoning behind that? I really wish there were an affordable way to check the levels of all these things often. I bet this sort of thing would be so much easier to figure out. I really wonder if I've depleted something (selenium or some other mineral maybe).

[existence]

Vitamins didn't tripe your testosterone in the first place... Of course not! What a retarded idea...

 

Then what did? Why did such a big spike happen after I started taking this precise regimen and changed nothing else? Why "of course not"? Why is it a "retarded idea"? Why say something so rude and not back it up with a study or even an argument? What do you say to the study below?

 

https://www.thieme-c.../s-0030-1269854

 

Aren't vitamins designated as such because they are crucial for a wide array of functions in the body? They affect a ton of stuff, so why not hormones? Do you think hormones are a function of genetics alone and the only way to boost them is through straight up hormone supplementation?

 

Where does your comment come from? Back it up.

[existence]

Are you following most of Ferris' advice on diet? If you're eating low-carb that may very well be the cause of your declining T levels. Carb up and you'll probably feel better! Or you could do like Dave Asprey and supplement with both testosterone and thyroid hormones, all while boasting about how good your fat based diet is for "hormonal status"!

 

I was doing the "slow carb" diet for a while, but it wasn't particularly effective for me and I was concerned about it raising cortisol so I quit it a couple months ago. However, I highly recommend people try it if they are significantly overweight. My father lost and has kept off 40 pounds doing nothing but that diet.

[existence]

Vitamins didn't tripe your testosterone in the first place... Of course not! What a retarded idea...

 

Here's another one.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3712348/

[KimberCT]

When I was in my twenties, my testosterone tested <200 on three points over the year. The same tests showed low-normal Vitamin D. Three months of Vitamin D and Clomid got me to >900 testosterone and high-normal Vitamin D. Since then it has stayed there with D alone.

The Vitamin A thing is just a hunch. Every time I've supplemented A for more than a few days, I begin to feel terrible.

Edited by KimberCT, 16 April 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[RJ23_1989]

Its probably just your body adapting to what it perceived as levels outside of the baseline from what is normal for you. One thing the body does very well is regulate itself. The problem now would likely be if you quit the supplementation you might experience a drop in levels at least temporarily as your body adjusts to bring things back into equilibrium. Changing your baseline is pretty hard, but there's some good science behind heavy resistance exercise as a possible method. Good luck. 

[1kgcoffee]

When testosterone levels get too high then the hypothalamus stops releasing GnRH which causes the pituitary to release less LH which causes lowered testosterone until the feedback corrects itself to your normal levels. It's called a flare up. There's a whole cascade of other hormones involved too. If you want testosterone that high permanently it's not going to happen naturally. Supplements can help but you need to lift heavy, eat lots, get the right protein, maybe intermittent fasting? I don't know. Having extremely high testosterone is probably not going to extend your life.

 

Why are you taking CoQ10 and B complex besides the fact that tim ferris recommends it?

[existence]

When I was in my twenties, my testosterone tested <200 on three points over the year. The same tests showed low-normal Vitamin D. Three months of Vitamin D and Clomid got me to >900 testosterone and high-normal Vitamin D. Since then it has stayed there with D alone.

The Vitamin A thing is just a hunch. Every time I've supplemented A for more than a few days, I begin to feel terrible.

 

Extremely interesting. I've been playing with cutting things out and it probably does make sense to try no A. It does seem to be the vitamin least often recommended and most often cautioned about. Thank you.

[existence]

When testosterone levels get too high then the hypothalamus stops releasing GnRH which causes the pituitary to release less LH which causes lowered testosterone until the feedback corrects itself to your normal levels. It's called a flare up. There's a whole cascade of other hormones involved too. If you want testosterone that high permanently it's not going to happen naturally. Supplements can help but you need to lift heavy, eat lots, get the right protein, maybe intermittent fasting? I don't know. Having extremely high testosterone is probably not going to extend your life.

 

Why are you taking CoQ10 and B complex besides the fact that tim ferris recommends it?

 

Thanks for the info. I haven't tested LH for a while. I do lift very high weight / low reps, but perhaps not often enough for hormonal purposes (once a week lately). My desire to raise testosterone isnt' for longevity. I've actually read that higher T is associated with a shorter lifespan, but I believe that is due to increased risky behavior - smoking, risky driving, etc.

 

I wasn't aware that Ferris recommended CoQ10 or B vitamins (nor do I do everything he recommends). I take CoQ10 for anti-aging, from the advice of some like Kurzweil, though I probably haven't researched this enough. I take a B complex that has a profile that matches what I've read is good for cortisol reduction.