32 replies to this topic

[midas]

I wasn't sure where to post this...

 

I found this an interesting short article..... http://news.sciencem...ummies-arteries

More in-depth information on the subject here.... http://carbsyndrome....-heart-disease/

[misterE]

This is no surprise really. The rich wealthy elite of ancient Egypt were the only ones who were able to become mummified. They were also the only ones able to eat rich-foods on a daily basis, while the common-folk had to eat grain.  

Edited by misterE, 25 April 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[Jeoshua]

It probably had more to do with their overall activity levels. People sitting on their ass all day, eating rich foods, and being fanned by servants were far more likely to get old enough to get heart disease than the slaves fanning them, building their temples, waiting on them hand and foot, and eating nothing but the scraps.

[12 String]

 

This is no surprise really. The rich wealthy elite of ancient Egypt were the only ones who were able to become mummified. They were also the only ones able to eat rich-foods on a daily basis, while the common-folk had to eat grain.  

 

Discussed here before:

Allam's team actually broadened its initial focus to include naturally mummified specimens from other societies and socioeconomic backgrounds. In all, ancient samples were gathered from Lima, Peru; from the Aleutian people in Alaska; from Native Americans in Nevada; and from desert-dwellers in Mongolia.

 

http://www.longecity...-human-history/

[midas]

 

This is no surprise really. The rich wealthy elite of ancient Egypt were the only ones who were able to become mummified. They were also the only ones able to eat rich-foods on a daily basis, while the common-folk had to eat grain.  

 

 

 

It probably had more to do with their overall activity levels. People sitting on their ass all day, eating rich foods, and being fanned by servants were far more likely to get old enough to get heart disease than the slaves fanning them, building their temples, waiting on them hand and foot, and eating nothing but the scraps.

 

 

I'm not sure where you folks think these rich foods were coming from....keep in mind everything they eat was natural.

 

Vegetables, fruit, grains, fish, meat and honey as a sweetener.

[Jeoshua]

Cyanide is natural. Belladonna is natural. Viruses are natural. Meat is natural. Rocks are natural. Just because something is natural does not mean that it is better.

And those rich foods came from various sources, in the kind of high amounts only Royalty or the Priesthood could ever afford.

[midas]

Cyanide is natural. Belladonna is natural. Viruses are natural. Meat is natural. Rocks are natural. Just because something is natural does not mean that it is better.

 

 

Seriously!.......I am without speech!.......I am amazed how intelligently you dealt with that!
 

Edited by midas, 25 April 2014 - 06:51 PM.

[Jeoshua]

Well, it's not like you gave me much to work with...

[misterE]

Usually throughout history eating high amounts of meat, eggs, sugar, cream, salt, pastries and deserts were reserved for royalty, the common person ate mostly starches like bread, rice, barley, oats, lentils, and corn on a daily basis as a dietary-staple and only got to eat rich-foods sparingly. The royalty and the aristocrats got to feast on extravagant food daily because of their wealth. During the turn of the century, America and much of western-Europe became very wealthy and as the trends show from 1909 to current: grain consumption fell, while meat consumption rose. This trend is happening in Asia and other parts of the world as well. As the wealth of a nation increases and as the nation begins industrializing, the consumption of grains, fiber and starch decreases and the consumption of meat, fat, and sugar increases. Now the entire world can eat like a king and a queen, the result is we are all obese and diabetic and take on the appearance of royalty from the past like King Henry VIII.

Edited by misterE, 26 April 2014 - 12:41 AM.

[midas]

The scientists that did the research don't seem to agree with you. They suspect something we have missed along the way may have been the culprit.

I don't think a comparison to someone who lived around 4,555 years later (Henry VIII) in a country with a completely different climate works very well here. The sorts of food available in Egypt 5,000 years ago would have been a little different to what was available in the UK in good old Henry's day.

I think you might find that 5,000 year old decadence wasn't as decadent as you think.

 

From the article

 

"So we think there must be other risk factors that we are missing,"

 

 

[misterE]

Cultures like the Tarahumara-Indians who eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables are actually completely free of atherosclerosis. Nathan Pritikin, who advocated and ate a high-fiber starch-diet since the 1950's, was autopsied when he died and was also free of atherosclerosis, this was documented and actually published in the scientific-literature! Plus you have the results of Dean Ornish who actually reversed atherosclerosis, so it is not inevitable... unless you eat like an aristocrat.

[midas]

Cultures like the Tarahumara-Indians who eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables are actually completely free of atherosclerosis. Nathan Pritikin, who advocated and ate a high-fiber starch-diet since the 1950's, was autopsied when he died and was also free of atherosclerosis, this was documented and actually published in the scientific-literature! Plus you have the results of Dean Ornish who actually reversed atherosclerosis, so it is not inevitable... unless you eat like an aristocrat.

 

Not sure that any of that has much to do with why young ancient mummies had heart disease.

[xEva]

Why did you discount this?

 

"One such risk might have been a high exposure to bacterial infection and infectious disease. Parasitic diseases such as malaria and schistosomiasis are endemic in the Nile Valley, and the ancient Egyptians had little means of treating them. "So all that infection might have really revved up the [ancient Egyptians'] inflammatory response," .... Inflammation helps to remove the agents of infection and promote healing, but older individuals may have paid a steep price for it: high levels of inflammatory response can contribute to the development of atherosclerosis."

 

Sounds right to me.

[misterE]

...

Edited by misterE, 26 April 2014 - 02:12 AM.

[sthira]

As the researchers state, inflammation from bacterial infections seems more likely than diet as the killer.

[Vardarac]

As the researchers state, inflammation from bacterial infections seems more likely than diet as the killer.

 

Perhaps so, but I have seen it pointed out there may be a concomitant absorption of bacterial endotoxins left in animal products with the fats found therein that is (a) not present at similar concentrations in plant foods, and (b) not as easily absorbed from plant foods if they are present due to the relatively low concentration of fats in plant foods.

 

The typically cited sources for this idea are:

 

Harte AL, Varma MC, Tripathi G, McGee KC, Al-Daghri NM, Al-Attas OS, Sabico S, O'Hare JP, Ceriello A, Saravanan P, Kumar S, McTernan PG. High fat intake leads to acute postprandial exposure to circulating endotoxin in type 2 diabetic subjects. Diabetes Care. 2012 Feb; 35(2):375-82.

Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23.

Deopurkar R, Ghanim H, Friedman J, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Mohanty P, Viswanathan P, Chaudhuri A, Dandona P. Differential effects of cream, glucose, and orange juice on inflammation, endotoxin, and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3. Diabetes Care. 2010 May; 33(5):991-7.

 

To play Devil's Advocate here, I would say that MisterE would not be wrong in advocating diets that avoid inflammation, while it could also be true that chronic inflammation caused by infections contributes to atherosclerosis as well. In other words, inflammation is bad, period, and a diet that contributes to inflammation is not different in its ultimate effect from other causes of inflammation.

Edited by Vardarac, 04 May 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[SIRT1]

Developed worlds biggest killer.

 

chia and fish oils seem to protect against it

 

Oleic dominant oils like avacado, olive, macadamia are least atherogenic. Cocoa butter least solid fat.

 

Jeanne calamet (died at 122) liked olive oil and chocolate. Worked for her...

Edited by SIRT1, 31 July 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[Kalliste]

Athersclerosis happens in everybody. Even if you maintain a state of the art lifestyle you are going to get some, grow old and die.

[Turnbuckle]

Cultures like the Tarahumara-Indians who eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables are actually completely free of atherosclerosis. Nathan Pritikin, who advocated and ate a high-fiber starch-diet since the 1950's, was autopsied when he died and was also free of atherosclerosis, this was documented and actually published in the scientific-literature! Plus you have the results of Dean Ornish who actually reversed atherosclerosis, so it is not inevitable... unless you eat like an aristocrat.

 

 

Considering that their average lifespan is 45 years, being completely free of atherosclerosis isn't anything to brag about. And in a letter to the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Dr. Kurt Oster contended they were actually close to death due to poor nutrition and were not to be emulated.

 

As for Nathan Pritikin (who had leukemia and committed suicide at the age of 70), the claim was made by a doctor at the Pritikin Center, and thus cannot be considered to be objective.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 01 August 2014 - 07:13 PM.

[sthira]

Cultures like the Tarahumara-Indians who eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables are actually completely free of atherosclerosis. Nathan Pritikin, who advocated and ate a high-fiber starch-diet since the 1950's, was autopsied when he died and was also free of atherosclerosis, this was documented and actually published in the scientific-literature! Plus you have the results of Dean Ornish who actually reversed atherosclerosis, so it is not inevitable... unless you eat like an aristocrat.

Considering that their average lifespan is 45 years, being completely free of atherosclerosis isn't anything to brag about. And in a letter to the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Dr. Kurt Oster contended they were actually close to death due to poor nutrition and were not to be emulated.

Also interesting is the reply to Dr. Oster's letter, which you neglected to include in entirety.

Edited by sthira, 01 August 2014 - 07:18 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

Cultures like the Tarahumara-Indians who eat a diet based on corn, beans and vegetables are actually completely free of atherosclerosis. Nathan Pritikin, who advocated and ate a high-fiber starch-diet since the 1950's, was autopsied when he died and was also free of atherosclerosis, this was documented and actually published in the scientific-literature! Plus you have the results of Dean Ornish who actually reversed atherosclerosis, so it is not inevitable... unless you eat like an aristocrat.

Considering that their average lifespan is 45 years, being completely free of atherosclerosis isn't anything to brag about. And in a letter to the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Dr. Kurt Oster contended they were actually close to death due to poor nutrition and were not to be emulated.

Also interesting is the reply to Dr. Oster's letter, which you neglected to include in entirety.

 

 

 

I didn't neglect to include it as the entire response was not included in the pdf from nutrition.org. 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 01 August 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Kalliste]

Lets be very clear about this. Atherosclerosis is common today because we can grow old enough to get it. The process of Atherosclerosis is a mess, with diet and lifestyle only being two of many parts in it.

 

Many different societies in human history have mummified their dead, using naturally occurring cold, hot, or dry conditions with or without embalming, and HORUS researchers took these ancient corpses, from different societies and times and continents, and put them through CT scanners. The deposits of atherosclerosis proved common. They were present in a third of the mummies, despite their average age at death being 36 (an age which does not fit neatly with the idea of a "natural" life being blissfully healthy). Atherosclerosis was as easily spotted in the dead gatherer-hunters as in the late pastoralists; as common in those who had lived on fish and seafood as in those who feasted on steak.

The HORUS study cannot tell us anything about the superiority of one diet over another, but it does reveal that when it comes to tackling atherosclerosis by altering diet and lifestyle, there may not be a magic preventive or cure. Far from being the peculiar side effect of modernity, problems with blood vessels narrowing and hardening occur routinely with age in all human societies. The foggy idea that modern life fosters atherogenesis - a notion that for too long was accepted without having been properly examined - evaporates under the sunlight.

 

http://www.naturalhi...th-by-affluence

https://www.fightagi...rosclerosis.php

Edited by Cosmicalstorm, 01 August 2014 - 09:19 PM.

[SIRT1]

...

Far from being the peculiar side effect of modernity, problems with blood vessels narrowing and hardening occur routinely with age in all human societies.

...

 

^ no sound inferrences can be based on that generalisation

 

 not all centerarians autopsied have atherosclerosis.

 

it is true that it can have many factors, but people can make good lifestyle choices to reduce or prevent its progression.

 

http://www.okicent.org/study.html

 

3. Cardiovascular Health and Aging

Elderly Okinawans were found to have impressively young, clean arteries, low cholesterol, and low homocysteine levels when compared to Westerners. These factors help reduce their risk for coronary heart disease by up to 80% and keep stroke levels low.

 

 

 

Edited by SIRT1, 02 August 2014 - 01:57 AM.

[Kalliste]

Even the best lifestyle is only gonna buy you a decade or two at best. There are examples of health gurus falling down dead before turning 70.

[Gerrans]

I was reading an article about Otzi the Iceman, who had signs of atherosclerosis, even though he did not come from a sedentary elite, fanned by servants. Some experts were surprised by this, given all the mountain walking he did. He was from the agricultural age and ate grain, which might be evidence for the anti-grain theorists, but did not Wheat Belly claim that the old types of wheat were better for us?

 

You can go round in circles trying to join the dots together; but stress is bad for us, and ancient people were probably under a lot of stress. As far as one reads, even Pharoahs were constantly being plotted against from within and attacked by enemies from without--which cannot have been good for the blood pressure.

[SIRT1]

For those interested in diets that can lower heart disease risk:

 

the medeterrainean - cretian diet

 

attributes its benefit to olive oil being the main fat source.

 

http://www.diet.com/...iterranean-diet

 

Ancel Keys, the author, lived to 100.

 

There may be something about olive oil. Jeanne Calamet attributed her long life to it as well.

 

 

 

Edited by SIRT1, 03 August 2014 - 02:51 AM.

[scottknl]

OK... I'll say it: I'll happily take an extra couple of decades on top of my normal 90 years.  For me that's a meaningful life extension.

 

If I can get more, that's great!  Plus I'm super healthy from my lifestyle changes, not crawling thru life sick and disabled.

[Kalliste]

90 is about as much you will get if you maintain optimal lifespan. 75 % or so of the health optimal people are dead by then. After 90 it's genetics if none of the usual killers get to you first.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24257572

 

[niner]

90 is about as much you will get if you maintain optimal lifespan. 75 % or so of the health optimal people are dead by then. After 90 it's genetics if none of the usual killers get to you first.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24257572

 

That's based on people who were essentially typical average people living typical average lives in their society.  People here are different, in that we're actively trying to be healthy and are taking advantage of new compounds and technologies years or even decades before they might be commonplace among the general public.  For most of us, 90 is decades away, and the pace of developments in longevity science continues to accelerate.

[Kalliste]

 

90 is about as much you will get if you maintain optimal lifespan. 75 % or so of the health optimal people are dead by then. After 90 it's genetics if none of the usual killers get to you first.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24257572

 

That's based on people who were essentially typical average people living typical average lives in their society.  People here are different, in that we're actively trying to be healthy and are taking advantage of new compounds and technologies years or even decades before they might be commonplace among the general public.  For most of us, 90 is decades away, and the pace of developments in longevity science continues to accelerate.

 

 

I am aware of the vast number of substances available which might prolong the human lifespan. But no one here has lived a life yet. We don't know if these therapies do anything in the long run. Most tests done are on short lived animals.

You have some pharmacological background? You must be far more informed than I regarding the number of cases when things for substance AAA looked stellar in early testing-- only to do nothing of value in real human biology.

It would be utterly shocking for me if this wasn't eventually, when science gives us the prospect to do the big mortality trials (or run digital high res fast forward human body biology simulations), the case for the majority of substances debated online. I bet most stuff would only produce marginal benefits. A few best cases maybe giving 1-9 years if started in an early age and dosed correctly.