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herb supplement brain health nootropic cognition tatsumaru pike hooter medievil adaptogen

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#1 ActuariallySpeaking

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:15 PM


This is my first post, after having read a good number of posts, so please be gentle as I'm brand new to this :-P

 

I have read through some very interesting threads with some incredibly insightful comments and posts on them, so I thought I'd open this up to the best and brightest of Longecity. In particular I've noted a few (from the posts I have read) who I believe will add a great deal of knowledge and insight to this thread - these are mostly from one particularly insightful comment, or general thorough knowledge of subject matter displayed; so I'd like to call them out specifically here, in hopes that this will spur one of the greatest conversations of all time :-D

 

A Few of My Favorites:

Tatsumaru
Pike
hooter
medievil
Adaptogen
 
Now, a bit of context here around who I am and what I'm looking for - then I will outline the topic, offer my notes, and open up discussion. I am a 28-year old who is working as an Actuarial Analyst at a large, multi-faceted insurance corporation. I got into the field because I have been excellent with mathematics since I was very young and Actuarial offered me the opportunity to 1. Be paid well with lower stress levels; 2. Have unbelievable job security; 3. Never stop learning - the most alluring to me being the third point. I earned a Bachelor of Science Degree in Economics and Actuarial Sciences, then dove headfirst into life - moving to a new city with no job prospects and only one acquaintance there. I lived life over the next 5 years and during that time, became employed at the company I am currently with. A few years later, I had the opportunity to work on a substantially impactful project that involved Actuarial valuations, and I got to work alongside the Actuarial team. After this project, I was offered the chance to move to headquarters and join the Actuarial community. I have now been there for about 18 months, during which time I have passed my first two Actuarial exams and am getting ready to take (and hopefully pass) my third at the end of this month.
 
It is probably obvious that brain health is at the top of my list of priorities in life; however, it is something I have paid little attention to in the past, and have only recently really started researching and looking into the different options and methods that are out there. Which brings us to the here and now. The Actuarial examination and credentialing process is among the most grueling, and possibly is the most difficult professional testing process in the world. While I have no doubt that putting in the appropriate amount of work and time will result in my eventual passing through and earning the credentials, I would be remisce if I were to never utilize the tools and resources available to me to make me the best that I can be, and to aid me in this process.
 
This is where I need your help, all of you. Being relatively new to this scene, and given the lack of in-depth, time-tested, or even published scholarly references and results, I feel as though this forum is the best (and most appropriate) venue for my query. My challenge to all of you would be to discuss 1. the processes and techniques available for achieving maximum cerebral potential; 2. specific personal experiences, and results from these processes/techniques; 3. personal recommendations; 4. Crazy theories that just might work (and may be just for fun).
 
I'm hoping that the entire community will benefit from this discussion, and I'm hoping that this topic, itself, reaches its maximum potential by having the best and brightest contributing everything they know to it. I greatly appreciate any and all effort you guys put in, even for the smallest contributions. Your assistance will certainly improve my quality of life; but, more importantly, could impact myriad others who search out the answers to these and similar questions. I thank you all ahead of time and eagerly look forward to your responses and to the intellectual discussion that is sure to ensue.

Without further ado, here are my notes and thoughts thus far (please feel free to correct and/or improve upon them in your comments):
Technique #1 - Herbal (Natural) Supplementation
 
Herbs have been around forever and as long as they've been around, people have been experimenting with them, learning about them, and unlocking the potential within them. With the limited research I have been able to accomplish while studying for exams and working (more than) full-time, here are my (personally untested) favorites:
 
Rhodiola Rosea - An affordable herb that has been used for centuries as an adaptogen and as an anti-fatigue agent. There is a little bit of evidence, more recently, that it may also have a favorable effect on cognition. While this effect is most notable when lessened cognition is related to fatigue and stress, more research needs to be done on the effects outside of these conditions. My sources suggest daily doses of up to 280-680mg, and as low as 50mg - of extracts that confer both 3% rosavins and 1% salidroside; start by taking 100mg daily for a week, adding 100mg daily for each week, up to approximately 400mg daily; best taken in the mornings to avoid interfering with sleep cycle. Noted side effects are minimal to non-existent for this herb.
 
Panax (True) Ginseng - Another affordable herbal supplement that has been used for centuries as an adaptogen and to improve numerous daily functions. Scientific research suggests that most of the beneficial effects of Ginseng are minor, but that it generally enhances mood, energy level, memory, and reduces inflation. There is also evidence to suggest it is notably effective at reducing the risks of certain types of cancer. My sources suggest once-daily doses of 200 to 400mg of extracts that confer 2-3% Ginsenosides. Notable side effects include insomnia, increased heart rate, change in blood pressure, headache, loss of appetite, diarrhea, etc. Long term usage may have hormone-like effects that are potentially unsafe.
 
Bacopa Monnieri - A slightly more expensive, but still affordable herb, more recently discovered and used as an adaptogen with proven nootropic effects. Scientific research has shown that long term (at least 2-3 months) use can natably enhance memory and cognition, while slightly reducing depression and anxiety. My sources suggest that daily doses of 300mg, conferring 55% bacoside (by weight), should be taken with a meal, preferrably with ghee, or animal fat, given that it is fat soluble and may upset an empty stomach. Notable side effects are two-fold - first, that naturally relaxed individuals taking this supplement may become more relaxed, even to the point of being unmotivated to complete their work; second, it is harsh on digestive tracts if not taken with food containing fat.
 
Ashwagandha - Another affordable herb that has been used as an adaptogen, primarily to treat anxiety, for many years. This herb has also been shown to help relieve insomnia and stress-induced depression, and can significantly reduce cortisol concentrations and the immunosuppressive effect of stress, as well as reduce fatigue. It can also improve physical performance, reduce LDL cholesterol, and improve memory formation. My sources suggest that the most cost-effective dose would be 300-500mg daily, with optimal dosage levels reaching 6,000mg taken in 2,000mg doses thrice daily; the most effective form being the root extract, and it should be taken with meals. Notable side effects have not been determined for Ashwagandha.
 
 
I would want to know what information you guys could provide around possible unwanted interactions/inefficiencies/redundancies, as well as ways to work around these. Also, if you have additions, that would be much appreciated!
 
 
**Sources include examine.com for history, uses, and scientifically backed effectiveness; and webmd.com primarily for information on side-effects. Other smaller sources may have been used intermittently throughout the post, but not to my specific knowledge.

Edited by ActuariallySpeaking, 14 April 2014 - 07:17 PM.

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#2 meth_use_lah

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:25 PM

  • Rhodiola rosea, haven't worked in a positive manner for me at various dosages, slight tension headache, haven't used much.
  • Panax ginseng, tastes good increased blood flow slight libido, haven't used much.
  • Bacopa, sedative I preferred to take it at night, I don't like to consume caffeine/stims daily but if you do I don't think it would be a problem taking it in the morning. I have a pretty robust stomach no issues with taking stuff on an empty stomach etc but I felt bacopa speed the passage through the digestive tract up slightly. Amount of dreaming or recall of dreaming increased, remembering old memories pleasant or not. COX-2 inhibitor. Took for 5 months at 180mg bacosides per day 20% extract. I like it but cannot continue taking it because of the cox-2 inhibition and a chronic sinus infection.
  • Ashwagandha, sedating for the first week~ after that the sedating effect disappeared. With higher chronic dosages 3*450mg 4.5% withanolides  for a couple of weeks  I've felt exhausted and gotten rings under my eyes which I never have had before. I like 450mg 2.5% withanolides  in the morning.

Possible addition Chaga tea, warming, good taste, immune strengthening, energizing without stim feeling.  If I drink a lot I get a feeling in my head similar to meditation but then we are talking a couple of liters over the course of a day and the effect comes in the evening (Possibly considered a side effect if it should occur during the workday).  Side effect: anticoagulant.


Edited by meth_use_lah, 14 April 2014 - 09:26 PM.


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#3 gamesguru

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:52 AM

How’s your diet & exercise? We all know there’s always room for improvement. Specifically, you might consider eating more kale & blueberries for their antioxidants, beans for their amino acids, and ginger & garlic for better blood flow.

 

For supplements, I’d suggest you add white tea, ginkgo and maybe PS & ALCAR, and ditch the rhodiola and ashwagandha.



#4 xks201

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:41 AM

The best advice you are going to get in this thread is from me and it is to not take anything until you pass that third exam within a month from now. Anything can alter your brain chemistry pretty dramatically to the point of having a negative effect. A lot of this game is trial and error. You listed basically a bunch of unrelated herbs as for as their mode of action and just proved my point. It sounds like your brain is functioning on a high level already if you do the kind of work you do.

I'd recommend setting a specific goal of what you want out of a nootropic and going from there because just tossing in adaptogens may not be very beneficial.
As far as that should say...typing this from my phone.
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#5 Flex

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:22 AM

Also consider that Ashwagandha is an Anticoagulant. Which, depending on the dosis, could be problematic when using with Aspirine or other blood-thinning supplements/medications.



#6 ActuariallySpeaking

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:30 PM

The best advice you are going to get in this thread is from me and it is to not take anything until you pass that third exam within a month from now. Anything can alter your brain chemistry pretty dramatically to the point of having a negative effect. A lot of this game is trial and error. You listed basically a bunch of unrelated herbs as for as their mode of action and just proved my point. It sounds like your brain is functioning on a high level already if you do the kind of work you do.

I'd recommend setting a specific goal of what you want out of a nootropic and going from there because just tossing in adaptogens may not be very beneficial.
As far as that should say...typing this from my phone.

 

I very much appreciate your advice and can tell you that I have already dedicated myself to not doing anything different before this exam. It is the most difficult and possibly largest of the preliminary examinations and I need things to be as rote and mechanical as possible leading up to the exam, which means changing absolutely nothing and just staying the course.

 

I would like to clarify, I'm not necessarily speaking about a "stack" here - I more just wanted to put out notes on the ones I felt like accomplished the things I liked, individually and not always taken together - I was hoping that this discussion would help me to piece together a stack. In particular, what I liked about most of these were either increase in energy, cognition, memory, or decrease in fatigue, stress, anxiety.

 

Thanks again for your contributing to my thread :-)


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#7 ActuariallySpeaking

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

 

  • Rhodiola rosea, haven't worked in a positive manner for me at various dosages, slight tension headache, haven't used much.
  • Panax ginseng, tastes good increased blood flow slight libido, haven't used much.
  • Bacopa, sedative I preferred to take it at night, I don't like to consume caffeine/stims daily but if you do I don't think it would be a problem taking it in the morning. I have a pretty robust stomach no issues with taking stuff on an empty stomach etc but I felt bacopa speed the passage through the digestive tract up slightly. Amount of dreaming or recall of dreaming increased, remembering old memories pleasant or not. COX-2 inhibitor. Took for 5 months at 180mg bacosides per day 20% extract. I like it but cannot continue taking it because of the cox-2 inhibition and a chronic sinus infection.
  • Ashwagandha, sedating for the first week~ after that the sedating effect disappeared. With higher chronic dosages 3*450mg 4.5% withanolides  for a couple of weeks  I've felt exhausted and gotten rings under my eyes which I never have had before. I like 450mg 2.5% withanolides  in the morning.

Possible addition Chaga tea, warming, good taste, immune strengthening, energizing without stim feeling.  If I drink a lot I get a feeling in my head similar to meditation but then we are talking a couple of liters over the course of a day and the effect comes in the evening (Possibly considered a side effect if it should occur during the workday).  Side effect: anticoagulant.

 

 

I greatly appreciate you posting about your personal experiences - it's always good to hear about what other people have felt or noticed while taking supplements, before deciding on what to go with personally. I'd like to know what types of caffeine/stims you would suggest taking in combination with Bacopa, especially considering that I was most interested in the possible effects and magnitude of those effects. Also, what about the COX-2 inhibition forced you to no longer be able to take it, if you don't mind my asking? Finally, are you still taking ashwagandha? If so, how do you like it and what are the main effects you are experiencing?

 

I will certainly look into Chaga tea and do my own research on that as well. Thank you so much for your reply.

 

How’s your diet & exercise? We all know there’s always room for improvement. Specifically, you might consider eating more kale & blueberries for their antioxidants, beans for their amino acids, and ginger & garlic for better blood flow.

 

For supplements, I’d suggest you add white tea, ginkgo and maybe PS & ALCAR, and ditch the rhodiola and ashwagandha.

 

My diet is decently healthy, but there is plenty of room for improvements. While working full time and studying significantly more than full time, I've found it very difficult to get regular physical exercise - I mean, I play with my dog about 30 minutes each day, which is basically just me chasing him for a solid 30 minutes, but other than that I am pretty sedentary (which is newer for me and not something I'd say I really like). I eat a lot of beans and garlic as is, but I will look into adding more anti-oxidant rich foods and possibly ginger.

 

I am curious as to your reasoning for your suggestions, not because I'm skeptical, simply because you provided no explanation. So, in particular, what would adding in white tea, ginkgo, and PS & ALCAR do for me, and why should I drop the rhodiola and ashwagandha? Also, as I stated just this morning, I am not necessarily calling this a "stack," but rather, these are just the ones whose effects most interest me.

 

Thank you for the advice, please keep it coming.

 

Also consider that Ashwagandha is an Anticoagulant. Which, depending on the dosis, could be problematic when using with Aspirine or other blood-thinning supplements/medications.

 

Thank you for adding that in, I am not currently taking any blood thinners, so this may actually end up being a good thing for me.

 

 

 

Thanks again everyone for contributing. I am greatly looking forward to more discussion on this topic! I will be posting another addition to my original post, with more discussion on different techniques (if you'll notice, this was labeled just as "Technique 1" - there are at least a couple of others)... so look for the "UPDATE" on the original post.



#8 gamesguru

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:26 PM

In my experience and research, rhodiola and ashwagandha aren't nutritious to the elderly or adaptogenic--they lack cumulative benefits, so if you quit taking them, you return to your old pathetic self. This does not seem to be the case with tea, ginseng, or ginkgo, which leave you feeling fresher and younger for weeks after your last dose. I said maybe PS & ALCAR because they are controversial; some people view them as a nutrient, others view them as superfluous or even toxic; these differences probably stem from differences in individual chemistry. I forgot to mention you may also wish to consider investing in a small stash of lions mane, turmeric, and royal jelly, for their respective benefits in boosting NGF, BDNF, and GDNF. And if you want something more effective than bacopa for fighting depression, saffron may be worth a shot; at 1/4 tsp. daily, it was shown to be more effective and less nauseating than Prozac in a controlled study, leading researchers to theorize that saffron contains the first known natural SSRI.


Edited by dasheenster, 15 April 2014 - 04:30 PM.


#9 xks201

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:18 PM

I'm not big on many herbs because we don't know exactly what they all do. For example, rhodiola is highly anti androgenic. 


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#10 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:57 AM

What source suggests anti-androgenic effects with rhodiola rosea? I can find some preliminary evidence suggesting it may be anti-estrogenic ( http://www.aacrmeeti...ct/2004/1/663-b ), but nothing about it being anti-androgenic ( http://www.ncbi.nlm....anti androgenic ).

 

As I wrote in another thread, I cannot see the logic in being cautious specifically about herbs, and still promote the taking of research chemicals that have not yet been through complete human clinical trials.

It is true that reasonable caution is advisable whenever you take a new substance, but herbs that have been used in traditional medicine for hundreds of years AND used in human clinical trials (like all the herbs mentioned above, excepting chaga), while they should be approached with some caution, generally merit significantly less cause for concern than research chemicals that have only been through a small number of in vitro and rodent trials.


Edited by Godof Smallthings, 16 April 2014 - 06:59 AM.

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#11 Strelok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:56 PM

What source suggests anti-androgenic effects with rhodiola rosea?

I also would like to know.  That's the first I've heard of that. 



#12 xks201

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19790032

This is going to screw with hormone and drug metabolism. I will try and find the anti androgen article later when I am home.

Research drugs should be taken by themselves. Most people who take herbs are taking herbal mixtures. My point is we don't know entirely what every herb does. A lot of weightlifters for example take milk thistle but that is very anti androgenic.

#13 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:23 AM

In vitro (test tube) studies only give a preliminary indication of what may or may not occur in vivo (in the living body).

 

That being said, there are a number of herbs with medical and/or psychotropic effects such as Curcuma Longa and Hypericum Perforatum do contain compounds with CYP3A4 inhibiting properties, so I would not be surprised if that proved to be the case with rhodiola rosea too; it is just that one in vitro study is not enough evidence to suggest that this is necessarily the case.

 

As regards CYP3A4, citrus fruits are generally more of a concern. The effect of grapefruit on the CYP3A4 enzyme lasts for up to 7 days.

 

As far as I can see, the study you referred to describes no effects that have a direct bearing on hormones. What it does and appears to have been designed for, is to provide preliminary indication of whether the herb may have any effect(s) on the metabolism of xenobiotic compounds. 

 

 

Research drugs should be taken by themselves.

If you ask the vast majority of researchers, they should only be taken during clinical trials and never by individuals. So if safety is really the true concern, then that would be ideal. You also know from being a member here that a significant number of the people who use research compounds do try mixing them with other stuff.

 

Most people who take herbs are taking herbal mixtures.

 

Those who do should indeed keep up with the research. No argument there.

 

My point is we don't know entirely what every herb does.

 

That is a valid and true point, too, but my point is that the same is equally true for research compounds, with the additional important caveat that research compounds have not been consumed by humans for hundreds of years.

 

A lot of weightlifters for example take milk thistle but that is very anti androgenic.

 

The supplementation goals of a weight lifter may be quite different from others. If milk thistle reduces muscle gain (which I don't know), then it makes sense that weight lifters may want to avoid it, but it may not be a problem for somebody else.

 

 



#14 hooter

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 08:31 PM

I'm honored that you would consider me an 'expert'. I'm just some dude on the internet. But if anyone is interested the only supplement that has never disappointed me is Cordyceps.



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#15 Godof Smallthings

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 03:46 AM

@hooter: What brand cordyceps did you take, and what effects did you experience?







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: herb, supplement, brain health, nootropic, cognition, tatsumaru, pike, hooter, medievil, adaptogen

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