45 replies to this topic

[pheanix997]

I'm surprised I haven't seen more "positive" SSRI-related threads. You don't have to look far to come across somebody making a comment about how SSRI'S cause "brain damage" or "erode your personality" or "kill your motivation."

 

Personally, SSRI's have done me good. After having a run with them for two years, I tried to quit in favour of non-synthetic healing methods (nutrition, exercise, health supplements, nootropics, etc.) -- and managed to do so -- for 8 months. That was a relatively dark time. Not in terms of terrible withdrawal -- I experienced none of that. But in terms of the return of the vague feelings of "fear" and "emptiness" and anxiety that had plagued me before starting the medication. When I say "dark," I don't mean an acute crisis or state of hopelessness -- I had done enough inner work over the years to be accepting of myself even when I wasn't very responsive socially, relationship-wise, or career-wise (due to the sudden cessation of the meds). So the best way I can put it is I was okay on the inside, but the external vibe that I gave off to others probably gave the sense that my personality was withering away. It became clear to me the benefits the drug was providing. 

 

Now that I'm back on a low-dose SSRI, things are going pretty good. Zero side effects. Moving up in my career, and the thought of taking on more demanding, anxiety-provoking responsibilities doesn't paralyze me. My self-caring and self-grooming increases quite a bit when I'm on SSRI's; when I was off them I noticed I was neglecting certain self-nurturing habits that shouldn't be neglected. It's like when I'm on the medication, I'm bewildered as to why I never took certain healthy actions all my life. I guess that's what it's like for a person with a dilapidated serotonin system to experience "normality" for the first time. 

 

I don't experience any cognitive problems whatsoever. If anything, the lack of anxiety and chronically chattering mind makes me better able to make rational decisions in my life, think more clearly, and concentrate better. Short-term memory problems? Maybe, but I've always experienced that so I can't say they're a direct result from SSRI use. 

 

They've been a tool to HELP (read: not "cure") me take the proper actions to live the kind of life I want to live. It helps me bring out my true self, not dampen it. It helps my intense shyness, social anxiety, and low self-esteem. I can understand why non-responders might be so against them. But they may have a different kind of depression altogether; a high-serotonin but low-dopamine version (no feelings of fear or acute anxiety but a general feeling of apathy and lack of motivation). When you think about it like that, we should look at SSRI'S not as "anti-depressants" (an all-encompasing, falsely promising marketing term) but simply as tools for people with actually impaired serotonin systems,resulting from chronic emotional trauma, humiliation, abuse in childhood, and thus growing up feeling safe and uncertain in a world "imagined" to be hostile. That's what it's like being low in serotonin. SSRI's fix those symptoms/ feelings/ apprehensions, or at least make you take a step back and reassess them to form better, more accurate views and values. 

 

Look up symptoms of low serotonin. If that rings true, SSRI's may help you. If they don't, they look up symptoms of low dopamine, maybe that's more fitting for your particular case. Is my logic correct or am I oversimplifying things? 

 

I'd like to hear from more people who've experienced good things from SSRI's. Has it helped give you the peace of mind to pursue better care of your mind, career, relationships, health? Because for me, the racing thoughts of anxiety and all that negative chatter PREVENTED me from taking proper care of myself. 

 

Edited by pheanix997, 17 April 2014 - 02:27 AM.

[blood]

Excellent post!

Edited by blood, 17 April 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[BlueCloud]

Wich SSRI are you taking ?

[pheanix997]

Wich SSRI are you taking ?

 

Cipralex (Escitalopram)..

Edited by pheanix997, 18 April 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[nowayout]

SSRIs may help some people, but the idea that it is because they have "low serotonin" that the SSRI somehow "fixes" was already pretty much known to be untrue in academia by the 70s-80s.  The "serotonin hypothesis" got legs because it was used as a marketing meme by the pharma companies until eventually the FDA prohibited them from doing that on the basis of lack of evidence. 

[pheanix997]

SSRIs may help some people, but the idea that it is because they have "low serotonin" that the SSRI somehow "fixes" was already pretty much known to be untrue in academia by the 70s-80s.  The "serotonin hypothesis" got legs because it was used as a marketing meme by the pharma companies until eventually the FDA prohibited them from doing that on the basis of lack of evidence. 

 

I'm well aware of the problems with the "serotonin deficiency" explanation for depression; I'm not trying to challenge this because I have zero knowledge of neuroscience.

But what I'm saying is: when you observe certain types of people you consider to be joyful, you notice similar traits, i.e. they're usually very social (work social jobs), extroverted, empathetic, warm, anti-irritable (easy-going), live for fun and adventure, etc. These common traits of happy people have been observed by today's positive psychologists, e.g. Martin Seligman. 

 

Now, isn't serotonin typically known to increase the tendency towards these types of traits/ behaviours? Isn't serotonin generally considered to foster social comfort? Isn't it known to reduce social anxiety, obsessive compulsive behaviour, shyness, negative rumination? When you take a person who is socially avoidant, introverted, irritable, cold, insecure, with anti-social tendencies, and a propensity for favouring intellectualization over having fun experiences - and give them some and SSRI or serotonin-boosting supplement (e.g. 5-HTP), wouldn't it be logical to conclude that these traits would soften, and, overtime, slowly reverse? 

 

With that said, serotonin is doing SOMETHING, isn't it? I'm not saying it helps "depression" - I avoid use of that word because it carries different connotations to different people. A highly-motivated (almost compulsively motivated) person who is low on serotonin but high on dopamine may look perfectly fine (just irritable and anxious) to a person who is low on dopamine but high on serotonin (slow moving, lethargic, apathetic, but not socially insecure or fearful), whereas the high-dopamine person would admire the person with low-dopamine because he/she never seems "wound up" or "agitated." So let's put aside the word "depression," (because that's all it is, a word, like any other, that struggles to qualify something). I'm not saying SSRI's cure "depression." I'm saying SSRI's help symptoms of "low serotonin," many of which - when clumped together - have been given the label "depressive disorder." 

 

If a person thinks taking a pill will solve their problems, they need to get a better grip on reality. But if they're looking for a "tool" to give them a sense of social comfort as well as other benefits, then it's worth a try. 

 

Now, I know what you're referring to when you say that serotonin doesn't help depression, because if it did,  the symptoms would go away right away (and not take 3-4 weeks). Thus, the SSRI's must be performing some other action. But there must be some other reason for that... (I don't see this as a logical way to dismiss the serotonin-hypothesis). 

 

 

Edited by pheanix997, 18 April 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[BlueCloud]

 

Now, I know what you're referring to when you say that serotonin doesn't help depression, because if it did,  the symptoms would go away right away (and not take 3-4 weeks). Thus, the SSRI's must be performing some other action.

 

 

The other action may be this : http://www.longecity...tory-mechanism/

[nowayout]

 

SSRIs may help some people, but the idea that it is because they have "low serotonin" that the SSRI somehow "fixes" was already pretty much known to be untrue in academia by the 70s-80s.  The "serotonin hypothesis" got legs because it was used as a marketing meme by the pharma companies until eventually the FDA prohibited them from doing that on the basis of lack of evidence. 

 

I'm well aware of the problems with the "serotonin deficiency" explanation for depression; I'm not trying to challenge this because I have zero knowledge of neuroscience.

But what I'm saying is: when you observe certain types of people you consider to be joyful, you notice similar traits, i.e. they're usually very social (work social jobs), extroverted, empathetic, warm, anti-irritable (easy-going), live for fun and adventure, etc. These common traits of happy people have been observed by today's positive psychologists, e.g. Martin Seligman. 

 

Now, isn't serotonin typically known to increase the tendency towards these types of traits/ behaviours? Isn't serotonin generally considered to foster social comfort? Isn't it known to reduce social anxiety, obsessive compulsive behaviour, shyness, negative rumination? When you take a person who is socially avoidant, introverted, irritable, cold, insecure, with anti-social tendencies, and a propensity for favouring intellectualization over having fun experiences - and give them some and SSRI or serotonin-boosting supplement (e.g. 5-HTP), wouldn't it be logical to conclude that these traits would soften, and, overtime, slowly reverse? 

 

With that said, serotonin is doing SOMETHING, isn't it? I'm not saying it helps "depression" - I avoid use of that word because it carries different connotations to different people. A highly-motivated (almost compulsively motivated) person who is low on serotonin but high on dopamine may look perfectly fine (just irritable and anxious) to a person who is low on dopamine but high on serotonin (slow moving, lethargic, apathetic, but not socially insecure or fearful), whereas the high-dopamine person would admire the person with low-dopamine because he/she never seems "wound up" or "agitated." So let's put aside the word "depression," (because that's all it is, a word, like any other, that struggles to qualify something). I'm not saying SSRI's cure "depression." I'm saying SSRI's help symptoms of "low serotonin," many of which - when clumped together - have been given the label "depressive disorder." 

 

If a person thinks taking a pill will solve their problems, they need to get a better grip on reality. But if they're looking for a "tool" to give them a sense of social comfort as well as other benefits, then it's worth a try. 

 

Now, I know what you're referring to when you say that serotonin doesn't help depression, because if it did,  the symptoms would go away right away (and not take 3-4 weeks). Thus, the SSRI's must be performing some other action. But there must be some other reason for that... (I don't see this as a logical way to dismiss the serotonin-hypothesis). 

 

 

 

The thing is we don't even really know what SSRIs really do in the brain, so I think even to say that they "increase serotonin," for example, is questionable.  There are, for example, hypotheses that they actually work (when they do) by desensitizing certain receptors in certain parts of the brain to serotonin.  In other words, SSRIs might actually effectively lower serotonin.  Nobody really seems to know.  It also seems to depend crucially on which parts of the brain and which serotonin and other receptors are affected.  So I think to link personality traits in a simple way to specific neurotransmitters is problematic. 

By the way, there is some research (I believe including brain imaging) indicating that SSRIs do have an immediate effect on a person's brain response to positive and negative environmental and interpersonal clues.  What takes 6 weeks in this hypothesis is the retraining of the brain due to this removal of negative reinforcement, but the actual  suppression of negative environmental clues supposedly starts with the first pill.  If they are right.  It would make some sense.  You can try to google the research.  An interesting recommendation that would make sense in this regard is that a person who takes an SSRI but stays in his room will not respond to the SSRI - for the retraining to happen you need to get out and get exposed to social clues.  So an SSRI should be especially helpful to someone (like me) who tends to respond very negatively to social clues. (I'll come back from a bar contemplating suicide because I feel nobody wants to talk to me.)

 

I so want to feel better but I can't get myself to take the damn pills though.  What if I can't have sex ever again as a result of the drug?  Why is everything a catch-22? 

Edited by nowayout, 18 April 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[pheanix997]

 

 

SSRIs may help some people, but the idea that it is because they have "low serotonin" that the SSRI somehow "fixes" was already pretty much known to be untrue in academia by the 70s-80s.  The "serotonin hypothesis" got legs because it was used as a marketing meme by the pharma companies until eventually the FDA prohibited them from doing that on the basis of lack of evidence. 

 

I'm well aware of the problems with the "serotonin deficiency" explanation for depression; I'm not trying to challenge this because I have zero knowledge of neuroscience.

But what I'm saying is: when you observe certain types of people you consider to be joyful, you notice similar traits, i.e. they're usually very social (work social jobs), extroverted, empathetic, warm, anti-irritable (easy-going), live for fun and adventure, etc. These common traits of happy people have been observed by today's positive psychologists, e.g. Martin Seligman. 

 

Now, isn't serotonin typically known to increase the tendency towards these types of traits/ behaviours? Isn't serotonin generally considered to foster social comfort? Isn't it known to reduce social anxiety, obsessive compulsive behaviour, shyness, negative rumination? When you take a person who is socially avoidant, introverted, irritable, cold, insecure, with anti-social tendencies, and a propensity for favouring intellectualization over having fun experiences - and give them some and SSRI or serotonin-boosting supplement (e.g. 5-HTP), wouldn't it be logical to conclude that these traits would soften, and, overtime, slowly reverse? 

 

With that said, serotonin is doing SOMETHING, isn't it? I'm not saying it helps "depression" - I avoid use of that word because it carries different connotations to different people. A highly-motivated (almost compulsively motivated) person who is low on serotonin but high on dopamine may look perfectly fine (just irritable and anxious) to a person who is low on dopamine but high on serotonin (slow moving, lethargic, apathetic, but not socially insecure or fearful), whereas the high-dopamine person would admire the person with low-dopamine because he/she never seems "wound up" or "agitated." So let's put aside the word "depression," (because that's all it is, a word, like any other, that struggles to qualify something). I'm not saying SSRI's cure "depression." I'm saying SSRI's help symptoms of "low serotonin," many of which - when clumped together - have been given the label "depressive disorder." 

 

If a person thinks taking a pill will solve their problems, they need to get a better grip on reality. But if they're looking for a "tool" to give them a sense of social comfort as well as other benefits, then it's worth a try. 

 

Now, I know what you're referring to when you say that serotonin doesn't help depression, because if it did,  the symptoms would go away right away (and not take 3-4 weeks). Thus, the SSRI's must be performing some other action. But there must be some other reason for that... (I don't see this as a logical way to dismiss the serotonin-hypothesis). 

 

 

 

The thing is we don't even really know what SSRIs really do in the brain, so I think even to say that they "increase serotonin," for example, is questionable.  There are, for example, hypotheses that they actually work (when they do) by desensitizing certain receptors in certain parts of the brain to serotonin.  In other words, SSRIs might actually effectively lower serotonin.  Nobody really seems to know.  It also seems to depend crucially on which parts of the brain and which serotonin and other receptors are affected.  So I think to link personality traits in a simple way to specific neurotransmitters is problematic. 

By the way, there is some research (I believe including brain imaging) indicating that SSRIs do have an immediate effect on a person's brain response to positive and negative environmental and interpersonal clues.  What takes 6 weeks in this hypothesis is the retraining of the brain due to this removal of negative reinforcement, but the actual  suppression of negative environmental clues supposedly starts with the first pill.  If they are right.  It would make some sense.  You can try to google the research.  An interesting recommendation that would make sense in this regard is that a person who takes an SSRI but stays in his room will not respond to the SSRI - for the retraining to happen you need to get out and get exposed to social clues.  So an SSRI should be especially helpful to someone (like me) who tends to respond very negatively to social clues. (I'll come back from a bar contemplating suicide because I feel nobody wants to talk to me.)

 

I so want to feel better but I can't get myself to take the damn pills though.  What if I can't have sex ever again as a result of the drug?  Why is everything a catch-22? 

 

I realize we don't really understand what the drug actually does in the brain, so I won't comment further about that. 

 

I see how it could be problematic to correlate themes of behaviours with single, specific neurotransmitters, but from my own observation there seems to be something to this. When I read, for example, that low serotonin lessens common sense - and then I take an SSRI and start to come down to earth a little more, become more practical, and think about more "common sensical" things - which I had neglected previously - it seems like there's some truth to this - however obscure or incomplete the puzzle may be at this current time.

 

Thus, a person who seems to be "up in the air" and experiences symptoms of dissociation, or self-neglect, or who isolates himself and generally has problems in the practical necessities of his/her life, e.g. work, friends, relationships, home up keeping, self-nurturing, etc. - such a person might have a good chance of benefiting from boosting the serotonin system. I know it's an over-simplification, but wouldn't it be a decent framework to start with, i.e. to determine what "kind" of depression you suffer from? 

 

I think the problem is what people who up to their GP's complaining of vague "depressive" symptoms even though they have all the check marks of "high serotonin" (however vague or incomplete that checklist may be), and they're given an SSRI. Um, recipe for disaster? The problem, as I see it, is that big pharma has taken the "low serotonin = depressive symptoms" and generalized it to make profits from a greater number of people. That doesn't mean "low serotonin = depressive symptoms" is a myth altogether. Wouldn't an imbalance (overabundance or depletion) of any neurotransmitter lead to problems? 

 

Of course, what I'm saying is based on the ideas of psychiatrists in the field today who have simplified their knowledge to communicate it to the lays-person like myself - and it can all be overturned tomorrow... so who really knows. I just get why people "demonize" serotonin-boosting drugs. 

 

Yea, we definitely can't sit in our rooms and think a pill will change our brains. It's a tool, and nothing really more. We have to hit the problem from all angles - getting our nutrition right, our cognition right, our social life right, our physicality right, our emotions right, our career right, our lifestyle right, etc. In fact, taking an SSRI without any plans to take actions in our lives will probably make us less likely to take those actions. It definitely is a tricky situation, which is why I view the drugs as tools. Changing the brain takes more than swallowing a pill. You have to go tackle your problems. Taking real action is what our brains and biology are designed to respond to - only that will lead to permanent change. 

 

You said: I so want to feel better but I can't get myself to take the damn pills though.  What if I can't have sex ever again as a result of the drug?  Why is everything a catch-22? 

 

My sex drive hasn't diminished, but that's just me. I think I might actually be hornier since starting up again. Not to say there might not be problems long term; I can only report my personal experience.

Edited by pheanix997, 18 April 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[pheanix997]

 

 

Now, I know what you're referring to when you say that serotonin doesn't help depression, because if it did,  the symptoms would go away right away (and not take 3-4 weeks). Thus, the SSRI's must be performing some other action.

 

 

The other action may be this : http://www.longecity...tory-mechanism/

 

thanks for the link

[pheanix997]

Nowayout, here's some research that shows how a single dose of citalopram has an immediate therapeutic effect on amygdala response...

               

[nowayout]

 

Nowayout, here's some research that shows how a single dose of citalopram has an immediate therapeutic effect on amygdala response...

               

 

 

Yes, that sounds like what I remember reading, although I seem to remember there was a bit more to it, so maybe there are additional studies. 

[maximum411]

There is actually substantial evidence that SSRIs work by promoting neurogenesis, and studies have been performed showing that SSRIs lose their effects when you block neurogenesis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BlueCloud]

 

My sex drive hasn't diminished, but that's just me. I think I might actually be hornier since starting up again. Not to say there might not be problems long term; I can only report my personal experience.

 

Yes, it seems to be the same for me,  I think it's actually heightening my libido , not dimishining it. Wich is a bit odd, since my previous experience with other SSRIs in the past lead to the same common complaint about loss of libido. 

it's strange how the same molecule will provoque opposite reactions in individuals.

[pheanix997]

 

 

My sex drive hasn't diminished, but that's just me. I think I might actually be hornier since starting up again. Not to say there might not be problems long term; I can only report my personal experience.

 

Yes, it seems to be the same for me,  I think it's actually heightening my libido , not dimishining it. Wich is a bit odd, since my previous experience with other SSRIs in the past lead to the same common complaint about loss of libido. 

it's strange how the same molecule will provoque opposite reactions in individuals.

 

what are you taking BlueCloud, and for how long? Any side effects? Is it doing what you expected it to do? 

[StevesPetRat]

Hey, pheanix, if it works it works. But based on my experience with SSRIs it's all the other actions you list that account for 90%+ of the recovery. They are more effective as anxiolytics, and I guess it could be because of the effect on the amygdala that you mentioned.

[nupi]

Compared to most on this site, I am, like you, more on the pro-SSRI side of the discussion. For much the same reasons as you nicely lay out above (though Escitalopram in particular was nasty for me). What I find interesting is the idea of SSRIs battling "emptiness". In my view, if there was one thing they did not address, it was emptiness (they also aren't really pro-social for me but then again, I made peace with being not very social). That emptiness is squarely something (the main thing?) YOU need to deal with...

[BlueCloud]

what are you taking BlueCloud, and for how long? Any side effects? Is it doing what you expected it to do? 

 

 

 

Escitalopram 5mg, for about a month now, for GAD ( generalized anxiety ). Side effects : I had a serotonin syndrome incident when I raised the dosage to 10mg and took curcumin with, and  It made me very tense physically for the last month,  but this has diminished as of the last two days, and now it seems to have slightly lowered my usual symptoms of physical anxiety , but not much  for mental anxiety. I'll see how it evolves in the next weeks.

 

My previous experience with various SSRIs and SNRIs in the past has been mostly negative, both in terms of side-effects and lack of any real postive effects ( at best strong blunting of emotions , wich I don't consider as a real therapeutic effect) . So far Escitalopram's side-fx has been somewhat benign compared to other AD.

[nowayout]

 

what are you taking BlueCloud, and for how long? Any side effects? Is it doing what you expected it to do? 

 

 

 

 It made me very tense physically for the last month,  but this has diminished as of the last two days, and now it seems to have slightly lowered my usual symptoms of physical anxiety , but not much  for mental anxiety.

 

I can never seem to get past the first couple of days with an SSRI because of that.  I'm already anxious so I can't tolerate the increase in tension (as well as dread in my case).  On the other hand, I find low dose amitriptylene (just 25 mg) gives me great anxiety relief within hours.  It's a pity just one dose makes me asexual for three days, so I take it only in emergencies.  

 

Having said that, it does seem the older tricyclics are underappreciated these days. 

 

Edited by nowayout, 19 April 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[pheanix997]

Hey, pheanix, if it works it works. But based on my experience with SSRIs it's all the other actions you list that account for 90%+ of the recovery. They are more effective as anxiolytics, and I guess it could be because of the effect on the amygdala that you mentioned.

 

Maybe it's been so effective for me because I've always had "anxious depressions," - especially the first time I was put on an SSRI; I was in an acute state of anxiety and was just looking for some anti-anxiety treatment. So although anxiety and depression obviously feed into each other, there should be a clear distinction between "anxious depression" and "melancholic/ major depressions." The latter, like you said, needs to be fundamentally addressed through actions that correct a damaging lifestyle. 

 

There was a book I read called Lifting Depression written by a neuroscientist, and she puts aside the idea that serotonin is the staple "mood chemical," and instead explores how dopamine systems play a big role in major depression. She recommends solid exercise, self-grooming activities, cleaning the house or car, doing things with your hands (our brains our biologically designed to be rewarded from actually building something or making something with our bare hands), etc., - all these supposedly stimulate dopamine. But for a person in an anxious depression, I'm not so sure these suggestions would help all that well, so it works both ways. 

[BlueCloud]

 

I can never seem to get past the first couple of days with an SSRI because of that.  I'm already anxious so I can't tolerate the increase in tension (as well as dread in my case).  On the other hand, I find low dose amitriptylene (just 25 mg) gives me great anxiety relief within hours.  It's a pity just one dose makes me asexual for three days, so I take it only in emergencies.  

 

Having said that, it does seem the older tricyclics are underappreciated these days. 
 

To be fair, at least at the dosage I've been on ( 5mg) , the tension was still bearable, and escitalopram has been by far the most bearable of any SSRI/SNRI I've taken in terms of sides, wich is a big plus in its favor. I'm just waiting to see if there are any real benefits apart from that.

[pheanix997]

 

what are you taking BlueCloud, and for how long? Any side effects? Is it doing what you expected it to do? 

 

 

 

Escitalopram 5mg, for about a month now, for GAD ( generalized anxiety ). Side effects : I had a serotonin syndrome incident when I raised the dosage to 10mg and took curcumin with, and  It made me very tense physically for the last month,  but this has diminished as of the last two days, and now it seems to have slightly lowered my usual symptoms of physical anxiety , but not much  for mental anxiety. I'll see how it evolves in the next weeks.

 

My previous experience with various SSRIs and SNRIs in the past has been mostly negative, both in terms of side-effects and lack of any real postive effects ( at best strong blunting of emotions , wich I don't consider as a real therapeutic effect) . So far Escitalopram's side-fx has been somewhat benign compared to other AD.

 

The physical tension thing you mention must be distressing. I take for granted how smoothly I respond to it. When I took it two years ago and was on the higher doses, I definitely experienced some side effects, e.g. weight gain (15 pounds), slightly slowed motor agility, the minor "brain zap sensation" when I'd move my eyes side to side, and it would also make me tired. 

 

I'm on the lowest dose now, though, and really experience zero side effects. I still experience physical anxiety, but it's very much manageable - and I prefer that as opposed to being completely numb. It's tempting to increase the dose, but I've been there and it's only necessary if you're in an acute state of anxiety and your body just needs relief. As for mental anxiety, that's decreased since being on medication quite a bit, but it's still there somewhat.

[pheanix997]

Compared to most on this site, I am, like you, more on the pro-SSRI side of the discussion. For much the same reasons as you nicely lay out above (though Escitalopram in particular was nasty for me). What I find interesting is the idea of SSRIs battling "emptiness". In my view, if there was one thing they did not address, it was emptiness (they also aren't really pro-social for me but then again, I made peace with being not very social). That emptiness is squarely something (the main thing?) YOU need to deal with...

Interesting point. For me, It doesn't completely "fill" the emptiness, it just gives me the reassurance that if I take certain actions in my life, then I'm going to be fulfilled. Kind of hard to explain I guess, but that's the best way I can put  it. There's just no more dread or panic that nothing will ever bring true satisfaction. 

[Duke318]

After being on nearly a dozen different anti-depressants, I'm convinced the main mechanism of action behind most antidepressants is an increase or decrease in cortisol.  There have been some studies that demonstrate this, but I am beginning to think the "serotonin theory" is really a hyperbole.  Anti-depressants also affect the HPA-axis, which is why withdrawal after sudden discontinuation is so brutal.  This is also the reason they do help people for a period of time, but long term use can be problematic.  SSRI's were extremely beneficial to me in the beginning, but after years of being on them, I felt nothing but extreme side effects, laziness, and anxiety.  Eventually I discovered that my adrenals were completely screwed up, likely from years of antidepressant use.

 

I'm now depression free thanks to treating the adrenals, in fact I feel better than I ever did on any anti-depressant.  A 24-hour saliva cortisol test would be extremely beneficial for anyone suffering from depression.  Look up the symptoms for both low and high cortisol, then compare them to "low serotonin".  Don't self-medicate with herbs - you need proper testing to determine if you are high or low and at which times of the day, then you can put a plan together.  All of the systems of the body are linked, and thyroid dysfunction, inflammation, the gut, iron/vitamin levels, diet, are all related. 

 

I do believe anti-depressants have their place, but only for short periods of time.  I say this from experience.  I also think an extremely long taper (decreasing by tiny amounts over long periods of time) is necessary when getting off these drugs, in order to not completely throw off the HPA-axis.  These drugs affect the hormonal system significantly.

[ModaMinds]

I truly think SSRIs can do good, as the underlying mechanism makes sense, but I feel that doctors too often jump right to prescribing an SSRI when there may be better solutions available first. 

[pheanix997]

After being on nearly a dozen different anti-depressants, I'm convinced the main mechanism of action behind most antidepressants is an increase or decrease in cortisol.  There have been some studies that demonstrate this, but I am beginning to think the "serotonin theory" is really a hyperbole.  Anti-depressants also affect the HPA-axis, which is why withdrawal after sudden discontinuation is so brutal.  This is also the reason they do help people for a period of time, but long term use can be problematic.  SSRI's were extremely beneficial to me in the beginning, but after years of being on them, I felt nothing but extreme side effects, laziness, and anxiety.  Eventually I discovered that my adrenals were completely screwed up, likely from years of antidepressant use.

 

I'm now depression free thanks to treating the adrenals, in fact I feel better than I ever did on any anti-depressant.  A 24-hour saliva cortisol test would be extremely beneficial for anyone suffering from depression.  Look up the symptoms for both low and high cortisol, then compare them to "low serotonin".  Don't self-medicate with herbs - you need proper testing to determine if you are high or low and at which times of the day, then you can put a plan together.  All of the systems of the body are linked, and thyroid dysfunction, inflammation, the gut, iron/vitamin levels, diet, are all related. 

 

I do believe anti-depressants have their place, but only for short periods of time.  I say this from experience.  I also think an extremely long taper (decreasing by tiny amounts over long periods of time) is necessary when getting off these drugs, in order to not completely throw off the HPA-axis.  These drugs affect the hormonal system significantly.

I'm too tired to write a more detailed response, but I want to say that when I first went to my GP for help three years ago, my adrenals were most likely completely shot. My diet and sleep were terrible, and I would consume caffeinated beverages like no tomorrow: red bull, coffee, pop. Although I plan on it, I still haven't really researched adrenal fatigue, but it's becoming apparent that I need to make it a priority. 

 

BTW I've had two thyroid and blood tests done, and both came back normal. Though I think there may be a problem with my gut for many reasons that I'll explain after some sleep

Edited by pheanix997, 20 April 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[celebes]

What I find interesting is the idea of SSRIs battling "emptiness". In my view, if there was one thing they did not address, it was emptiness

 

 

5-HT1A and 5-HT2A agonism dispel emptiness, particularly 1A by enhancing Vagal signalling and Oxytocin release/responsiveness. SSRIs tend to enhance 1A function but obliterate 2A, which is what's behind most of the zombification seen. Polymorphisms related to 1A (upstream and downstream) and overall receptor interactions are responsible for much of the variation in response (and the issues in the first place).

Edited by celebes, 20 April 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[pheanix997]

I've heard that chronic use of SSRI's lowers dopamine over time. Is there any way to prevent this? Would taking dopamine-enhancing supplements supported by a lifestyle that naturally increases dopamine, e.g. heavy weightlifting, good sleep, proper diet, etc., over time prevent this inevitable process from happening, or happening so drastically as to change the personality of the individual into a lethargic, unmotivated, emotional-zombie? 

 

I think one way to tame this process would be to keep your dose at the lowest therapeutic level for yourself, where the benefits aren't all-encompasing but the side-effects are null. 

Edited by pheanix997, 20 April 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[ModaMinds]

I've heard that chronic use of SSRI's lowers dopamine over time. Is there any way to prevent this? Would taking dopamine-enhancing supplements supported by a lifestyle that naturally increases dopamine, e.g. heavy weightlifting, good sleep, proper diet, etc., over time prevent this inevitable process from happening, or happening so drastically as to change the personality of the individual into a lethargic, unmotivated, emotional-zombie? 

 

I think one way to tame this process would be to keep your dose at the lowest therapeutic level for yourself, where the benefits aren't all-encompasing but the side-effects are null. 

 

Yes, an SSRI may indirectly decrease dopamine levels. You can take a dopaminergic to counteract this, and some people even report a feeling of euphoria when combining an SSRI with a dopaminergic. 

[BlueCloud]

 

I'm on the lowest dose now, though, and really experience zero side effects. I still experience physical anxiety, but it's very much manageable - and I prefer that as opposed to being completely numb. It's tempting to increase the dose, but I've been there and it's only necessary if you're in an acute state of anxiety and your body just needs relief. As for mental anxiety, that's decreased since being on medication quite a bit, but it's still there somewhat.

 

 

How much is your low dose ? I've just increased to 10mg from 5mg as nothing positive was happening so far, and boy.. It has raised my anxiety and physical tension so much i've been paralysed and  haven't been able to do anything for the last two days.. Maybe I should have stayed with 5mg and waited some more.