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Coca Leaves As A Nootropic?

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#31 YOLF

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:39 PM

Actually, it looks like the danger of coniine can be negated by artificial ventilation. It basically stops your breathing. So small doses shouldn't be harmful and C60 as it increases oxygen efficiency may also allay fears of inadequate oxygenation. Proper or high T levels will increase oxygen levels or lower the risk of taking coniine containing problems. Weightloss from the coca will raise (or rather preserve)  T levels.  B6 and B12 as well as echinacea, and arachidonic acid are also good oxygen boosters. Though I think some of the coca stimulants would negate the effects of coniine.

 

So it looks like we just have to manage the reserpine effects.



#32 YOLF

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:16 AM

Do you use their priority mail option? How long does it take to get to you?



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#33 LaViidaLocaa

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:17 AM

Wow, the novoandina store is extremely expensive!

When I was in Cuzco, Peru, people sold bags of the coca leaves for a quarter, this webshop asks 67 dollar for just 100 grams..



#34 Adaptogen

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:20 AM

I'm sure there are cheaper sources out there.

 

This is the first i've came across so far: http://www.cocashop....613db59521ac154



#35 Ritchie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:19 PM

Actually, it looks like the danger of coniine can be negated by artificial ventilation. It basically stops your breathing. So small doses shouldn't be harmful and C60 as it increases oxygen efficiency may also allay fears of inadequate oxygenation. Proper or high T levels will increase oxygen levels or lower the risk of taking coniine containing problems. Weightloss from the coca will raise (or rather preserve)  T levels.  B6 and B12 as well as echinacea, and arachidonic acid are also good oxygen boosters. Though I think some of the coca stimulants would negate the effects of coniine.
 
So it looks like we just have to manage the reserpine effects.

Coca also contains vitamin B6 too, so your right about coniine. In my experience, I have not received any negative effects from coca, so either the stimulants(mainly cocaine) are mitigating its negative effects or it's in very, very low concentrations. Now I'm not sure about its neurotoxic effects, but again coca has been claimed to be high in antioxidants. I have not found any substantial evidence to support this claim so I'm supplementing with other antioxidants(cysteine, green tea). Other than antioxidants what else can be done?

Do you use their priority mail option? How long does it take to get to you?

It generally takes 7-9 days with priority mail, but I live in Canada.

Wow, the novoandina store is extremely expensive!
When I was in Cuzco, Peru, people sold bags of the coca leaves for a quarter, this webshop asks 67 dollar for just 100 grams..

I have found other websites that sold coca for a 4-5 dollars cheaper but they all seemed extremely shady and most of them even sold codeine and Xanax. Up to you, but I'm putting my faith in novoandina for now.

Edited by Ritchie, 23 April 2014 - 12:15 PM.


#36 LaViidaLocaa

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 03:11 PM

I'm sure there are cheaper sources out there.

 

This is the first i've came across so far: http://www.cocashop....613db59521ac154

 

This seems a good store for the powdered version indeed. I wonder how the efficacy of the powder is compared to the whole leafs and in what dose one should take it.

Unfortunately, they do not have the whole leaves themselves. The chewing itself is much more fun!  ;)



#37 Flex

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 04:25 PM

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?

 

I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,

dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.

The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.

 

So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.

Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.


Edited by Flex, 23 April 2014 - 04:31 PM.


#38 Ritchie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 05:05 PM

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?
 
I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,
dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.
The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.
 
So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.
Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.

I can confirm they're non addictive, at least for me. I believe that the compound in coca leaves that "control" or inhibit cocaine addiction and side effects would be Reserpine. Reserpine is a VMAT inhibitor which means it has antipsychotic and antihypertensive properties.

#39 Flex

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 05:28 PM

This would not expalin it.

 

The effects on Vmat are transient, but some effects of cocaine are very longlasting if not in some aspects irreversible

(at least up to date).

In addition to that the mechanism behind the addiction are multifactorial where e.g. monoamines, glutamate and gaba are implicated and of course alteration of synapses.

See:

http://www.longecity...eversal-thread/

 

And Vmat does only affects monoamines, so no glutamate or gaba.

As an example, taking cocaine with a vmat inhibitor would not abolish an addiction.

 

My assumption was more related to the other compounds like:

methylecgonine cinnamate, benzoylecgonine, truxilline, hydroxytropacocaine, tropacocaine, ecgonine, cuscohygrine, dihydrocuscohygrine, nicotine, and hygrine

http://en.wikipedia....logical_aspects

 


Edited by Flex, 23 April 2014 - 05:29 PM.


#40 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:23 PM

 

Actually, it looks like the danger of coniine can be negated by artificial ventilation. It basically stops your breathing. So small doses shouldn't be harmful and C60 as it increases oxygen efficiency may also allay fears of inadequate oxygenation. Proper or high T levels will increase oxygen levels or lower the risk of taking coniine containing problems. Weightloss from the coca will raise (or rather preserve)  T levels.  B6 and B12 as well as echinacea, and arachidonic acid are also good oxygen boosters. Though I think some of the coca stimulants would negate the effects of coniine.
 
So it looks like we just have to manage the reserpine effects.

Coca also contains vitamin B6 too, so your right about coniine. In my experience, I have not received any negative effects from coca, so either the stimulants(mainly cocaine) are mitigating its negative effects or it's in very, very low concentrations. Now I'm not sure about its neurotoxic effects, but again coca has been claimed to be high in antioxidants. I have not found any substantial evidence to support this claim so I'm supplementing with other antioxidants(cysteine, green tea). Other than antioxidants what else can be done?

Do you use their priority mail option? How long does it take to get to you?

It generally takes 7-9 days with priority mail, but I live in Canada.

Wow, the novoandina store is extremely expensive!
When I was in Cuzco, Peru, people sold bags of the coca leaves for a quarter, this webshop asks 67 dollar for just 100 grams..

I have found other websites that sold coca for a 4-5 dollars cheaper but they all seemed extremely shady and most of them even sold codeine and Xanax. Up to you, but I'm putting my faith in novoandina for now.

 

I also like that the novoandina has preorder dates to go with harvesting. It means the supply should be fresher. But yeah, where can I buy a bag for a quarter?

 

I wonder if reserpine could be removed somehow? I've got some ideas but I don't think the equipment needed is available yet.



#41 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:27 PM

 

I'm sure there are cheaper sources out there.

 

This is the first i've came across so far: http://www.cocashop....613db59521ac154

 

This seems a good store for the powdered version indeed. I wonder how the efficacy of the powder is compared to the whole leafs and in what dose one should take it.

Unfortunately, they do not have the whole leaves themselves. The chewing itself is much more fun!  ;)

 

Actually, I heard masticating the powder with a pinch of baking soda is the best (most effective), and can lead to some fun :) As long as I see some good weight loss I'll be happy though.



#42 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:32 PM

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?

 

I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,

dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.

The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.

 

So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.

Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.

The changes in the brain that cause addiction to cocaine don't occur at small doses. Cocaine addiction occurs as a result of the euphoria, the cocaine user isn't actually addicted to the cocaine, but the signature neurochemical response of the brain to euphoria caused by the cocaine IIRC. Again it's been a few years since I did research on this.



#43 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:37 PM

 

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?
 
I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,
dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.
The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.
 
So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.
Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.

I can confirm they're non addictive, at least for me. I believe that the compound in coca leaves that "control" or inhibit cocaine addiction and side effects would be Reserpine. Reserpine is a VMAT inhibitor which means it has antipsychotic and antihypertensive properties.

 

See my post above, but I really don't think it's the reserpine. At least I hope not. Reserpine correlates withe cancer at high doses and has a phase 2 half life of 270 hours... so it could build up... I'd rather find a way to remove it... an addiction to an otherwise harmless stimulant tea that makes me skinny would be preferable to getting cancer IMO. But again I'm fairly certain that it's the euphoria that elicits the addiction response.



#44 Ritchie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:53 PM


 

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?
 
I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,
dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.
The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.
 
So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.
Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.

I can confirm they're non addictive, at least for me. I believe that the compound in coca leaves that "control" or inhibit cocaine addiction and side effects would be Reserpine. Reserpine is a VMAT inhibitor which means it has antipsychotic and antihypertensive properties.
 
See my post above, but I really don't think it's the reserpine. At least I hope not. Reserpine correlates withe cancer at high doses and has a phase 2 half life of 270 hours... so it could build up... I'd rather find a way to remove it... an addiction to an otherwise harmless stimulant tea that makes me skinny would be preferable to getting cancer IMO. But again I'm fairly certain that it's the euphoria that elicits the addiction response.
I don't believe humanity has the technology to do this as even decaffeinated tea has some of the beneficial compounds removed as well. I've been thinking that reserpine has been having the positive effects as I still have improved focus and concentration weeks after my last dose. Like I said in my OP, coca is completely non addictive. I've binged on it multiple times and have yet to experience cravings or anything even resembling withdrawal symptoms. Coca really isn't that euphoric. Mostly it elicits a sense of well being combined with wakefulness and mild improvements in focus. Large doses of coca do induce very mild euphoria, but I think coca is mostly serotonergic in its action.

#45 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:31 AM

 

 

 

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?
 
I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,
dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.
The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.
 
So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.
Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.

I can confirm they're non addictive, at least for me. I believe that the compound in coca leaves that "control" or inhibit cocaine addiction and side effects would be Reserpine. Reserpine is a VMAT inhibitor which means it has antipsychotic and antihypertensive properties.
 
See my post above, but I really don't think it's the reserpine. At least I hope not. Reserpine correlates withe cancer at high doses and has a phase 2 half life of 270 hours... so it could build up... I'd rather find a way to remove it... an addiction to an otherwise harmless stimulant tea that makes me skinny would be preferable to getting cancer IMO. But again I'm fairly certain that it's the euphoria that elicits the addiction response.
I don't believe humanity has the technology to do this as even decaffeinated tea has some of the beneficial compounds removed as well. I've been thinking that reserpine has been having the positive effects as I still have improved focus and concentration weeks after my last dose. Like I said in my OP, coca is completely non addictive. I've binged on it multiple times and have yet to experience cravings or anything even resembling withdrawal symptoms. Coca really isn't that euphoric. Mostly it elicits a sense of well being combined with wakefulness and mild improvements in focus. Large doses of coca do induce very mild euphoria, but I think coca is mostly serotonergic in its action.

 

I'm not worried about the addiction. I'm worries about the potential side effects of reserpine. In high doses it can cause cancer and has the long biological half life so it can accumulate over time and reach those levels. I drink TONS of tea, so it might be a problem.


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#46 Ritchie

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:39 AM


 

 

 

I wonder why there are no reports of addiction regarding chewing cocaine ?
 
I´m asking because I could not find any reports that the Indios who chew it,
dont experience any cocaine related bad alterations like cognitive impairments, asociality or Ocd´ish symptoms etc.
The dosage may be far lower of the Leaves, but the effects should afaik accumulate over the time.

 
So, if my thoughts are right, then the leaves should contain something what supress or inhibits the addiction.
Like anatabine form the tobacco plant, which decreases nicotine addiction.

I can confirm they're non addictive, at least for me. I believe that the compound in coca leaves that "control" or inhibit cocaine addiction and side effects would be Reserpine. Reserpine is a VMAT inhibitor which means it has antipsychotic and antihypertensive properties.
 
See my post above, but I really don't think it's the reserpine. At least I hope not. Reserpine correlates withe cancer at high doses and has a phase 2 half life of 270 hours... so it could build up... I'd rather find a way to remove it... an addiction to an otherwise harmless stimulant tea that makes me skinny would be preferable to getting cancer IMO. But again I'm fairly certain that it's the euphoria that elicits the addiction response.
I don't believe humanity has the technology to do this as even decaffeinated tea has some of the beneficial compounds removed as well. I've been thinking that reserpine has been having the positive effects as I still have improved focus and concentration weeks after my last dose. Like I said in my OP, coca is completely non addictive. I've binged on it multiple times and have yet to experience cravings or anything even resembling withdrawal symptoms. Coca really isn't that euphoric. Mostly it elicits a sense of well being combined with wakefulness and mild improvements in focus. Large doses of coca do induce very mild euphoria, but I think coca is mostly serotonergic in its action.
 
I'm not worried about the addiction. I'm worries about the potential side effects of reserpine. In high doses it can cause cancer and has the long biological half life so it can accumulate over time and reach those levels. I drink TONS of tea, so it might be a problem.
True. However correlation does not equal causation. Still, always best to be on the safe side. However I can not even confirm that coca actually contains reserpine, the only study that has actually recovered alkaloids from coca(http://en.m.wikipedi...i/Coca_alkaloid) does not actually state reserpine as one of the alkaloids they recovered. However ever other non scientifique source seems to claim that coca contains Reserpine. This leads me to believe that there is an old scientifique somewhere out there, that stated reserpine as one of the alkaloids as I can't imagine that every other source simply "guessed" that coca contained reserpine.

#47 normalizing

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:50 PM

cryonics is ridiculous. he admits to drink tons of tea which is actually contradictory to benefits of tea, moderate or small amount is benefical, too much is bad. yet, he cries about tiny amounts of riserpine being present in coca leaves, which are as little as cocaine will be present in few leaves that you chew on  and you probably might need 10,000 to get any good amount same as the high from cocaine. and if it does cause cancer, are you that insecure in your own body to fear one out of million things in this world that also cause cancer ? you might as well not breath if you fear cancer so much.


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#48 YOLF

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:44 PM

cryonics is ridiculous. he admits to drink tons of tea which is actually contradictory to benefits of tea, moderate or small amount is benefical, too much is bad. yet, he cries about tiny amounts of riserpine being present in coca leaves, which are as little as cocaine will be present in few leaves that you chew on  and you probably might need 10,000 to get any good amount same as the high from cocaine. and if it does cause cancer, are you that insecure in your own body to fear one out of million things in this world that also cause cancer ? you might as well not breath if you fear cancer so much.

I'm one of a number of individuals who would like food to be more healthy than it already is. We generally believe that by improving the content of food to such a degree that nothing in it harms us, we may result in life extension benefits. We also don't like to add things to food which might be harmful, even in small amounts. Remember, LongeCity is about radical life extension and celebrating your 1000th or even 100,000th birthday. Too much tea is also bad for a reason, lets get rid of that reason.

 

Achieving an optimal metabolism would create a considerable benefit. Most aging is a result of metabolic garbage. So if we can prevent the garbage from accumulating, we can live longer. The garbage is also associated with cancer and such things. The potential harm from reserpine is REAL. As it is excreted by the liver, kidney, and colon, it can cause problems. For comparison, the half-life of methyl ester ecgonine is 60-71 minutes and benzylecgonine is 40-44 minutes according to the drug testing literature. the phase 1 half life of reserpine is 4.5 hours and the phase 2 is 271 hours. You could easily test positive for reserpine while not having a detectable amount of ecgonine in a day or two. If you're drinking every day for weeks, we're talking an accumulation that depending on dose could surpass the amount of beneficial stuff. All food has something ike this and if it didn't, we might not have to do science to extend our lives :)

 

 

 

 

The choice of subjects and choice of tests for this research were geared to exploring chronic brain damage, but there are two immediately obvious possibilities which could yield the same results. One is that the habit is favoured by people who already possess some degree of mental deficiency, perhaps because it permits them to forget that limitation. The other is that performance was affected by a temporary coca intoxication rather than by any long-term effect.

 The above study has alot of good information. I don't think it demonstrates why cognitive performance was lower or that it was caused by coca chewing... It is also worth noting that users may mix the coca leaf with other leaves instead of using a powder alkali such as baking soda. So the choice of alkali may also be effecting the results. IIRC alkali substances can raise blood pressure too, though the reserpine would lower BP. More importantly reserpine functions as an anti-psychotic which is a tranquilizer and given it's ability to accumulate due to it's 271 hour half life and a new drink every 3-5 hours. It could very well be the reason that coca tea causes lower cognitive performance (I don't think they explored this in the study). I would think that removing it or breeding it out of the plant would be a good idea not only for the user, but also for an industry. I would hope they wouldn't touch the rest of the alkaloids though.

 

I'm thinking that given reserpine is an oxidant there must be an easy chemical way to remove it if we compare all the constituent molecules for a cheap uncommon reactant. Anyone got any ideas? Flashpoint? Vapor point? Spectrometery data anyone?


Edited by cryonicsculture, 24 April 2014 - 08:45 PM.


#49 normalizing

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:46 PM

^ why wont the possitve compounds in coca not ameliorate the negative impact of what is so far purely speculative amount if any in existence of reserpine?

i remember a study done on fish with high mercury but high omega 3 content which happened to ameliorate the negative impact of mercury. and there are other studies showing positive compounds being anti-negative to the toxins present in comparison.

 

and i dont believe in your theory that making food as healthy as possible and removing all toxins or negative impact substances in it will prolong our life in significant percent. food is just energy, not lifesaving medicine, unless you are a homeopath and believe in this. its just there for energy! the more fresh and lacking toxins, the better that is true but its not going to do anything significant ever. besides, trying to completely turn food into some kind of a super life extending pill format is psychotic. im strong believer in ying-yang, in order something to be good it has to have bad too. i think if any toxins present in food, it might actually challenge our system more so than have detrimental impact long term.

 

and if you really wanna live 1000 years, which i think is insanity, look for something beyond what is considered normal right now. like import your brain into a supercomputer in the future if possible, or as of now, just concentrate your attention on stem cells as it seems the most hopeful variant so far beyond a delusion of food stripped of all toxins and turned into some super bad ass longevity material LOL

 

 


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#50 Jeoshua

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:06 PM

Actually, Homeopathy has nothing to do with food, it has to do with antagonistic substances causing opposite effects under high dilution and succusion... in theory anyways. But not food, that's for sure.

Chinese medicine is, however, based primarily on food products. As a person who says that they are a strong believer in "ying-yang" you probably know that, since that is one of the underlying principles at work with traditional Chinese medicine. And it's spelled Yin, so maybe you're just using metaphorically. Either way, TCM has, as one of its founding principles "Food is the first medicine".

This is a belief which has come down the ages to modern medicine, even spawning the entire branch of Nutrition Science. And studies which have been done on caloric restriction, methionine restriction, dietary supplementation, and other sub-headings under Nutrition Science have shown that proper (or improper) amounts of various macro- and micro-nutrients in our food can have a marked effect on longevity and health.

#51 Ritchie

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:26 PM

 

cryonics is ridiculous. he admits to drink tons of tea which is actually contradictory to benefits of tea, moderate or small amount is benefical, too much is bad. yet, he cries about tiny amounts of riserpine being present in coca leaves, which are as little as cocaine will be present in few leaves that you chew on  and you probably might need 10,000 to get any good amount same as the high from cocaine. and if it does cause cancer, are you that insecure in your own body to fear one out of million things in this world that also cause cancer ? you might as well not breath if you fear cancer so much.

I'm one of a number of individuals who would like food to be more healthy than it already is. We generally believe that by improving the content of food to such a degree that nothing in it harms us, we may result in life extension benefits. We also don't like to add things to food which might be harmful, even in small amounts. Remember, LongeCity is about radical life extension and celebrating your 1000th or even 100,000th birthday. Too much tea is also bad for a reason, lets get rid of that reason.

 

Achieving an optimal metabolism would create a considerable benefit. Most aging is a result of metabolic garbage. So if we can prevent the garbage from accumulating, we can live longer. The garbage is also associated with cancer and such things. The potential harm from reserpine is REAL. As it is excreted by the liver, kidney, and colon, it can cause problems. For comparison, the half-life of methyl ester ecgonine is 60-71 minutes and benzylecgonine is 40-44 minutes according to the drug testing literature. the phase 1 half life of reserpine is 4.5 hours and the phase 2 is 271 hours. You could easily test positive for reserpine while not having a detectable amount of ecgonine in a day or two. If you're drinking every day for weeks, we're talking an accumulation that depending on dose could surpass the amount of beneficial stuff. All food has something ike this and if it didn't, we might not have to do science to extend our lives :)

 

 

 

 

The choice of subjects and choice of tests for this research were geared to exploring chronic brain damage, but there are two immediately obvious possibilities which could yield the same results. One is that the habit is favoured by people who already possess some degree of mental deficiency, perhaps because it permits them to forget that limitation. The other is that performance was affected by a temporary coca intoxication rather than by any long-term effect.

 The above study has alot of good information. I don't think it demonstrates why cognitive performance was lower or that it was caused by coca chewing... It is also worth noting that users may mix the coca leaf with other leaves instead of using a powder alkali such as baking soda. So the choice of alkali may also be effecting the results. IIRC alkali substances can raise blood pressure too, though the reserpine would lower BP. More importantly reserpine functions as an anti-psychotic which is a tranquilizer and given it's ability to accumulate due to it's 271 hour half life and a new drink every 3-5 hours. It could very well be the reason that coca tea causes lower cognitive performance (I don't think they explored this in the study). I would think that removing it or breeding it out of the plant would be a good idea not only for the user, but also for an industry. I would hope they wouldn't touch the rest of the alkaloids though.

 

I'm thinking that given reserpine is an oxidant there must be an easy chemical way to remove it if we compare all the constituent molecules for a cheap uncommon reactant. Anyone got any ideas? Flashpoint? Vapor point? Spectrometery data anyone?

 

 

 

^ why wont the possitve compounds in coca not ameliorate the negative impact of what is so far purely speculative amount if any in existence of reserpine?

i remember a study done on fish with high mercury but high omega 3 content which happened to ameliorate the negative impact of mercury. and there are other studies showing positive compounds being anti-negative to the toxins present in comparison.

 

and i dont believe in your theory that making food as healthy as possible and removing all toxins or negative impact substances in it will prolong our life in significant percent. food is just energy, not lifesaving medicine, unless you are a homeopath and believe in this. its just there for energy! the more fresh and lacking toxins, the better that is true but its not going to do anything significant ever. besides, trying to completely turn food into some kind of a super life extending pill format is psychotic. im strong believer in ying-yang, in order something to be good it has to have bad too. i think if any toxins present in food, it might actually challenge our system more so than have detrimental impact long term.

 

and if you really wanna live 1000 years, which i think is insanity, look for something beyond what is considered normal right now. like import your brain into a supercomputer in the future if possible, or as of now, just concentrate your attention on stem cells as it seems the most hopeful variant so far beyond a delusion of food stripped of all toxins and turned into some super bad ass longevity material LOL

 

 

Cryonicsculture, read my above post. Reserpine is Speculated to be an alkaloid of coca, this has not been confirmed.

I'm going to have to agree with normalizing on this one, I also believe that in order for something to be good, it has to be bad too. I believe that, in nature, everything comes in a sort of "package". In the sense that harmful compounds are packaged along beneficial compounds.

 

One example of this is Sugar Cane. White Sugar is known for its ability to cause tooth decay, diabetes and cardiovascular disease. However modern reasearch has revealed that sugar cane, while containing large amounts of white sugar, has been shown to strenghen the teeth, stabilize blood sugar and lower cholesterol. Why does this happen? Because other chemicals in sugar cane(specifically vitamins and antioxidants as well as phytonutrients) mitigates and even overcomes the negative aspects of sugar.

 

This is of course not the case with all plants. Some plants are just flat out poisonous. However Coca does not seem to be one of those plants. Coca obviously works by some unknown mechanism that humans don't understand. Reserpine may very well be complementing other compounds in coca, which all work together to mitigate Cocaine's effect. By removing Reserpine you're screwing with this very delicate and perfect system. Which means that Reserpine-free coca extract could very well be just as addictive and have the same side effects as low doses of orally administered Cocaine Hydrochloride. Not to mention the fact that modern alkaloid extraction techniques will most likely remove alot of beneficial compounds from coca(antioxidants, vitamins etc) along with Reserpine.

 

Please don't try to mess around with the mechanisms present in this plant. Coca contains COCAINE for gods sake! The very limited research proves that coca is harmless in its NATURAL form.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for longevity. I want to live 1000 years too! But this idea can only lead to more harm than good. You say Reserpine causes oxidative stress? I'll supplement with more antioxidants. You say Reserpine builds up? I'll drink less coca tea every week. But I sure as hell am not going to try to screw with the unknown mechanism present in coca to possibly get some tiny marginal benefit that probably won't outweight the negatives.


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#52 normalizing

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:55 PM

ritchie, i tried to order from your given source, it keeps saying "something went wrong" i dunno whats the problem the CC is valid and hasnt expired and it worked just earlier today so its not that. i dunno whats the deal....



#53 Ritchie

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:05 PM

ritchie, i tried to order from your given source, it keeps saying "something went wrong" i dunno whats the problem the CC is valid and hasnt expired and it worked just earlier today so its not that. i dunno whats the deal....

 

Try emailing their customer support @ AndinaStore@gmail.com

They tend to respond very quickly in my experience.



#54 normalizing

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:27 PM

i tried few times more and FINALLY it worked. not sure what the problem was. but it pisses me off when i found out the cheapest shipping and handling is 9 dollars + 2 dollars for insurance? thats expensive! not sure i want to buy from them anymore.

was checking this place while i had problems ordering; http://pijamacafe.we...te-de-coca.html seems like a better place maybe?



#55 Ritchie

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:37 PM

i tried few times more and FINALLY it worked. not sure what the problem was. but it pisses me off when i found out the cheapest shipping and handling is 9 dollars + 2 dollars for insurance? thats expensive! not sure i want to buy from them anymore.

was checking this place while i had problems ordering; http://pijamacafe.we...te-de-coca.html seems like a better place maybe?

The fact that the website you refered to couldnt even afford 5$/month web hosting and had to use a free weebly domain is by itself unsettling. But sure why not?



#56 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:32 AM

^ why wont the possitve compounds in coca not ameliorate the negative impact of what is so far purely speculative amount if any in existence of reserpine?

i remember a study done on fish with high mercury but high omega 3 content which happened to ameliorate the negative impact of mercury. and there are other studies showing positive compounds being anti-negative to the toxins present in comparison.

 

and i dont believe in your theory that making food as healthy as possible and removing all toxins or negative impact substances in it will prolong our life in significant percent. food is just energy, not lifesaving medicine, unless you are a homeopath and believe in this. its just there for energy! the more fresh and lacking toxins, the better that is true but its not going to do anything significant ever. besides, trying to completely turn food into some kind of a super life extending pill format is psychotic. im strong believer in ying-yang, in order something to be good it has to have bad too. i think if any toxins present in food, it might actually challenge our system more so than have detrimental impact long term.

 

and if you really wanna live 1000 years, which i think is insanity, look for something beyond what is considered normal right now. like import your brain into a supercomputer in the future if possible, or as of now, just concentrate your attention on stem cells as it seems the most hopeful variant so far beyond a delusion of food stripped of all toxins and turned into some super bad ass longevity material LOL

 

 

Amelioration is limited to the scope of the testing. Just because the fish oils ameliorate the results of one test or another doesn't mean it's as good as not having any mercury. Any similar results would be just as limited and why eat up the benefits of the fish oil on something that doesn't need to be there? I'm not a homeopath... But we die for a chemical reason. Food is energy and spare parts, this is why taking supplements can resolve some problems. Food is not medicine by itself (though there is that quote about making your medicine your food which has relevance to modern diets) but medicine can be had from food. Cocaine is a medicine, reserpine is a medicine, and lots of other plant based compounds are used as medicine. But I think my response to the mercury bit says it all. But similarly, one's eating habits can effect their health. Take salt intake for instance. It's food, it's produced by plants and present in animals that we eat and eating too much will give you blood pressure problems. If you're young you may be able to exceed the upper limit without noticing the effects, but otherwise salt in excess will cause side effects. Eating lots of certain types of fat will slow your brain and effect your memory, eating the right amount of other fats will improve memory. All of this is because of the food's effect on metabolism. I propose that we function at a diminished capacity as a result of sub-optimum metabolism because too much of our food is negating all of the good action that could come of what we eat. Food wasn't created for us to eat, we looked for things to eat and found that some of it didn't kill us or make us sick. That's what we eat.

 

Importing one's brain is ridiculous if the body doesn't exist to accompany it. It's not you. It's just a copy. Not a bad idea to have a digital self to expand your person, but it's not H+ if you have to lose your body. Stem cells will only be necessary for the worst cases IMO once we defeat aging. They'll be great for building new bodies to put our brains into and it will be great when our stem cell centers are returned to younger relative proportions, but they aren't a silver bullet.  Not by a long shot.  Stem cell replacement therapies will forever require new stem cells infusions if that's all that's keeping us together. Food that doesn't contribute to our death means we won't need to be dependent on hospital visits and hospital bills. It would mean that immortality would necessarily over consume resources and people would have to die. It's the wrong model for sustainable indefinite lifespans. Good for profits and preserving death as a controlling influence in people's lives though. So let's eat better food and design supplements and gene therapies to improve our resistance to death.

 

Earlier you said that over consuming tea countered the effects tea, that's probably because the body eats up all the good stuff and additional tea adds more of the bad stuff. 

 

Forget what you know. It was fed to you and is holding you back. In fact, your behavioral pattern of grabbing a few isolated facts and crystallizing them into all encompassing assumptions of what the future will be is nothing more the result of death clouding your very identity. I'm glad you came here. We can help with that, it's what we're all about.



#57 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:04 AM

 

 

cryonics is ridiculous. he admits to drink tons of tea which is actually contradictory to benefits of tea, moderate or small amount is benefical, too much is bad. yet, he cries about tiny amounts of riserpine being present in coca leaves, which are as little as cocaine will be present in few leaves that you chew on  and you probably might need 10,000 to get any good amount same as the high from cocaine. and if it does cause cancer, are you that insecure in your own body to fear one out of million things in this world that also cause cancer ? you might as well not breath if you fear cancer so much.

I'm one of a number of individuals who would like food to be more healthy than it already is. We generally believe that by improving the content of food to such a degree that nothing in it harms us, we may result in life extension benefits. We also don't like to add things to food which might be harmful, even in small amounts. Remember, LongeCity is about radical life extension and celebrating your 1000th or even 100,000th birthday. Too much tea is also bad for a reason, lets get rid of that reason.

 

Achieving an optimal metabolism would create a considerable benefit. Most aging is a result of metabolic garbage. So if we can prevent the garbage from accumulating, we can live longer. The garbage is also associated with cancer and such things. The potential harm from reserpine is REAL. As it is excreted by the liver, kidney, and colon, it can cause problems. For comparison, the half-life of methyl ester ecgonine is 60-71 minutes and benzylecgonine is 40-44 minutes according to the drug testing literature. the phase 1 half life of reserpine is 4.5 hours and the phase 2 is 271 hours. You could easily test positive for reserpine while not having a detectable amount of ecgonine in a day or two. If you're drinking every day for weeks, we're talking an accumulation that depending on dose could surpass the amount of beneficial stuff. All food has something ike this and if it didn't, we might not have to do science to extend our lives :)

 

 

 

 

The choice of subjects and choice of tests for this research were geared to exploring chronic brain damage, but there are two immediately obvious possibilities which could yield the same results. One is that the habit is favoured by people who already possess some degree of mental deficiency, perhaps because it permits them to forget that limitation. The other is that performance was affected by a temporary coca intoxication rather than by any long-term effect.

 The above study has alot of good information. I don't think it demonstrates why cognitive performance was lower or that it was caused by coca chewing... It is also worth noting that users may mix the coca leaf with other leaves instead of using a powder alkali such as baking soda. So the choice of alkali may also be effecting the results. IIRC alkali substances can raise blood pressure too, though the reserpine would lower BP. More importantly reserpine functions as an anti-psychotic which is a tranquilizer and given it's ability to accumulate due to it's 271 hour half life and a new drink every 3-5 hours. It could very well be the reason that coca tea causes lower cognitive performance (I don't think they explored this in the study). I would think that removing it or breeding it out of the plant would be a good idea not only for the user, but also for an industry. I would hope they wouldn't touch the rest of the alkaloids though.

 

I'm thinking that given reserpine is an oxidant there must be an easy chemical way to remove it if we compare all the constituent molecules for a cheap uncommon reactant. Anyone got any ideas? Flashpoint? Vapor point? Spectrometery data anyone?

 

 

 

^ why wont the possitve compounds in coca not ameliorate the negative impact of what is so far purely speculative amount if any in existence of reserpine?

i remember a study done on fish with high mercury but high omega 3 content which happened to ameliorate the negative impact of mercury. and there are other studies showing positive compounds being anti-negative to the toxins present in comparison.

 

and i dont believe in your theory that making food as healthy as possible and removing all toxins or negative impact substances in it will prolong our life in significant percent. food is just energy, not lifesaving medicine, unless you are a homeopath and believe in this. its just there for energy! the more fresh and lacking toxins, the better that is true but its not going to do anything significant ever. besides, trying to completely turn food into some kind of a super life extending pill format is psychotic. im strong believer in ying-yang, in order something to be good it has to have bad too. i think if any toxins present in food, it might actually challenge our system more so than have detrimental impact long term.

 

and if you really wanna live 1000 years, which i think is insanity, look for something beyond what is considered normal right now. like import your brain into a supercomputer in the future if possible, or as of now, just concentrate your attention on stem cells as it seems the most hopeful variant so far beyond a delusion of food stripped of all toxins and turned into some super bad ass longevity material LOL

 

 

Cryonicsculture, read my above post. Reserpine is Speculated to be an alkaloid of coca, this has not been confirmed.

I'm going to have to agree with normalizing on this one, I also believe that in order for something to be good, it has to be bad too. I believe that, in nature, everything comes in a sort of "package". In the sense that harmful compounds are packaged along beneficial compounds.

 

One example of this is Sugar Cane. White Sugar is known for its ability to cause tooth decay, diabetes and cardiovascular disease. However modern reasearch has revealed that sugar cane, while containing large amounts of white sugar, has been shown to strenghen the teeth, stabilize blood sugar and lower cholesterol. Why does this happen? Because other chemicals in sugar cane(specifically vitamins and antioxidants as well as phytonutrients) mitigates and even overcomes the negative aspects of sugar.

 

This is of course not the case with all plants. Some plants are just flat out poisonous. However Coca does not seem to be one of those plants. Coca obviously works by some unknown mechanism that humans don't understand. Reserpine may very well be complementing other compounds in coca, which all work together to mitigate Cocaine's effect. By removing Reserpine you're screwing with this very delicate and perfect system. Which means that Reserpine-free coca extract could very well be just as addictive and have the same side effects as low doses of orally administered Cocaine Hydrochloride. Not to mention the fact that modern alkaloid extraction techniques will most likely remove alot of beneficial compounds from coca(antioxidants, vitamins etc) along with Reserpine.

 

Please don't try to mess around with the mechanisms present in this plant. Coca contains COCAINE for gods sake! The very limited research proves that coca is harmless in its NATURAL form.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for longevity. I want to live 1000 years too! But this idea can only lead to more harm than good. You say Reserpine causes oxidative stress? I'll supplement with more antioxidants. You say Reserpine builds up? I'll drink less coca tea every week. But I sure as hell am not going to try to screw with the unknown mechanism present in coca to possibly get some tiny marginal benefit that probably won't outweight the negatives.

 

Actually, from my previous research on coca, low dose cocaine HCl didn't cause addiction. It's as I said in the earlier post. Addiction requires a strong response from the brain to cause addiction dependence. Cocaine isn't necessarily a bad thing... Reserpine however is a barrier to achieving optimal benefit from coca tea supplementation or perpetual benefit from coca tea. If necessary, I'm sure there are safer anti-psychotics than reserpine. It's a banned drug for life's sake! And unlike cocaine, it's effects are much longer lasting. I'm more afraid of the reserpine than I am the cocaine despite knowing the approximate cocaine concentration and not knowing the reserpine concentration. Reserpine is known to have negative effects both in racemix and as a pure product. It would be better that it didn't have it. I'm going to assume until I find out otherwise that given the number of papers asserting reserpine is a constituent of coca leaf, and none saying that it was found to be absent that it is present. I can also devise methods of removing it or counteracting it before it enters my metabolism. If I become psychotic from not having the reserpine, I'll just have to find a safe natural antipsychotic... lol but I don't think it will matter.



#58 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:12 AM

Food also wasn't designed for us. We just happened to survive it for however many years we've been evolving and in some cases adapted to it. If we modify it with the goal of making it more healthy, that's what it will probably be.



#59 Ritchie

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:50 AM

 

 

 

cryonics is ridiculous. he admits to drink tons of tea which is actually contradictory to benefits of tea, moderate or small amount is benefical, too much is bad. yet, he cries about tiny amounts of riserpine being present in coca leaves, which are as little as cocaine will be present in few leaves that you chew on  and you probably might need 10,000 to get any good amount same as the high from cocaine. and if it does cause cancer, are you that insecure in your own body to fear one out of million things in this world that also cause cancer ? you might as well not breath if you fear cancer so much.

I'm one of a number of individuals who would like food to be more healthy than it already is. We generally believe that by improving the content of food to such a degree that nothing in it harms us, we may result in life extension benefits. We also don't like to add things to food which might be harmful, even in small amounts. Remember, LongeCity is about radical life extension and celebrating your 1000th or even 100,000th birthday. Too much tea is also bad for a reason, lets get rid of that reason.

 

Achieving an optimal metabolism would create a considerable benefit. Most aging is a result of metabolic garbage. So if we can prevent the garbage from accumulating, we can live longer. The garbage is also associated with cancer and such things. The potential harm from reserpine is REAL. As it is excreted by the liver, kidney, and colon, it can cause problems. For comparison, the half-life of methyl ester ecgonine is 60-71 minutes and benzylecgonine is 40-44 minutes according to the drug testing literature. the phase 1 half life of reserpine is 4.5 hours and the phase 2 is 271 hours. You could easily test positive for reserpine while not having a detectable amount of ecgonine in a day or two. If you're drinking every day for weeks, we're talking an accumulation that depending on dose could surpass the amount of beneficial stuff. All food has something ike this and if it didn't, we might not have to do science to extend our lives :)

 

 

 

 

The choice of subjects and choice of tests for this research were geared to exploring chronic brain damage, but there are two immediately obvious possibilities which could yield the same results. One is that the habit is favoured by people who already possess some degree of mental deficiency, perhaps because it permits them to forget that limitation. The other is that performance was affected by a temporary coca intoxication rather than by any long-term effect.

 The above study has alot of good information. I don't think it demonstrates why cognitive performance was lower or that it was caused by coca chewing... It is also worth noting that users may mix the coca leaf with other leaves instead of using a powder alkali such as baking soda. So the choice of alkali may also be effecting the results. IIRC alkali substances can raise blood pressure too, though the reserpine would lower BP. More importantly reserpine functions as an anti-psychotic which is a tranquilizer and given it's ability to accumulate due to it's 271 hour half life and a new drink every 3-5 hours. It could very well be the reason that coca tea causes lower cognitive performance (I don't think they explored this in the study). I would think that removing it or breeding it out of the plant would be a good idea not only for the user, but also for an industry. I would hope they wouldn't touch the rest of the alkaloids though.

 

I'm thinking that given reserpine is an oxidant there must be an easy chemical way to remove it if we compare all the constituent molecules for a cheap uncommon reactant. Anyone got any ideas? Flashpoint? Vapor point? Spectrometery data anyone?

 

 

 

^ why wont the possitve compounds in coca not ameliorate the negative impact of what is so far purely speculative amount if any in existence of reserpine?

i remember a study done on fish with high mercury but high omega 3 content which happened to ameliorate the negative impact of mercury. and there are other studies showing positive compounds being anti-negative to the toxins present in comparison.

 

and i dont believe in your theory that making food as healthy as possible and removing all toxins or negative impact substances in it will prolong our life in significant percent. food is just energy, not lifesaving medicine, unless you are a homeopath and believe in this. its just there for energy! the more fresh and lacking toxins, the better that is true but its not going to do anything significant ever. besides, trying to completely turn food into some kind of a super life extending pill format is psychotic. im strong believer in ying-yang, in order something to be good it has to have bad too. i think if any toxins present in food, it might actually challenge our system more so than have detrimental impact long term.

 

and if you really wanna live 1000 years, which i think is insanity, look for something beyond what is considered normal right now. like import your brain into a supercomputer in the future if possible, or as of now, just concentrate your attention on stem cells as it seems the most hopeful variant so far beyond a delusion of food stripped of all toxins and turned into some super bad ass longevity material LOL

 

 

Cryonicsculture, read my above post. Reserpine is Speculated to be an alkaloid of coca, this has not been confirmed.

I'm going to have to agree with normalizing on this one, I also believe that in order for something to be good, it has to be bad too. I believe that, in nature, everything comes in a sort of "package". In the sense that harmful compounds are packaged along beneficial compounds.

 

One example of this is Sugar Cane. White Sugar is known for its ability to cause tooth decay, diabetes and cardiovascular disease. However modern reasearch has revealed that sugar cane, while containing large amounts of white sugar, has been shown to strenghen the teeth, stabilize blood sugar and lower cholesterol. Why does this happen? Because other chemicals in sugar cane(specifically vitamins and antioxidants as well as phytonutrients) mitigates and even overcomes the negative aspects of sugar.

 

This is of course not the case with all plants. Some plants are just flat out poisonous. However Coca does not seem to be one of those plants. Coca obviously works by some unknown mechanism that humans don't understand. Reserpine may very well be complementing other compounds in coca, which all work together to mitigate Cocaine's effect. By removing Reserpine you're screwing with this very delicate and perfect system. Which means that Reserpine-free coca extract could very well be just as addictive and have the same side effects as low doses of orally administered Cocaine Hydrochloride. Not to mention the fact that modern alkaloid extraction techniques will most likely remove alot of beneficial compounds from coca(antioxidants, vitamins etc) along with Reserpine.

 

Please don't try to mess around with the mechanisms present in this plant. Coca contains COCAINE for gods sake! The very limited research proves that coca is harmless in its NATURAL form.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for longevity. I want to live 1000 years too! But this idea can only lead to more harm than good. You say Reserpine causes oxidative stress? I'll supplement with more antioxidants. You say Reserpine builds up? I'll drink less coca tea every week. But I sure as hell am not going to try to screw with the unknown mechanism present in coca to possibly get some tiny marginal benefit that probably won't outweight the negatives.

 

Actually, from my previous research on coca, low dose cocaine HCl didn't cause addiction. It's as I said in the earlier post. Addiction requires a strong response from the brain to cause addiction dependence. Cocaine isn't necessarily a bad thing... Reserpine however is a barrier to achieving optimal benefit from coca tea supplementation or perpetual benefit from coca tea. If necessary, I'm sure there are safer anti-psychotics than reserpine. It's a banned drug for life's sake! And unlike cocaine, it's effects are much longer lasting. I'm more afraid of the reserpine than I am the cocaine despite knowing the approximate cocaine concentration and not knowing the reserpine concentration. Reserpine is known to have negative effects both in racemix and as a pure product. It would be better that it didn't have it. I'm going to assume until I find out otherwise that given the number of papers asserting reserpine is a constituent of coca leaf, and none saying that it was found to be absent that it is present. I can also devise methods of removing it or counteracting it before it enters my metabolism. If I become psychotic from not having the reserpine, I'll just have to find a safe natural antipsychotic... lol but I don't think it will matter.

 

I understand that Reserpine has been shown to be potentially harmful. However to attempt to remove it completely from coca leaf, when at the same time you have no idea what is coca's mechanism of action is not the wisest decision. Now that doesn't mean that I think Reserpine is safe, I just believe that Reserpine may have a very important role in coca's mechanism of action, and that it may explain why coca chewing does not induce any of the side effects that cocaine hcl does. I imagine taking supplements to protect the brain from Reserpine induced damage, or even taking a supplement to mildly counteract Reserpine won't hurt. However I don't believe that we should right away remove and discard all of the Reserpine contained in coca leafs until further scientific studies are done on Reserpines role in coca's psychological effects.


 



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#60 YOLF

  • Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!

Posted 25 April 2014 - 02:08 AM

The psychosis attributed to cocaine is stimulant psychosis. I don't think it's purely something caused by cocaine and low doses shouldn't cause it. Ecgonine on the other turns the spigot on energy generation to full on. It's just more of the regular energy generation that we experience and why coca leaf is reported as being a "cleaner" experience than other stimulants including caffeine, amphetamine, and coke/crack. You'd have to show that extreme low dose cocaine from coca leaf would otherwise lead to psychosis and I just don't see a reason given current data to accept that. All I'm seeing is a desire to stick to status quo nutrition, and that's still killing us :)






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