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SLEEP - is it possible (or advisable) to train yourself to need less?

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#1 Xenthide

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:56 PM


Recently I have been wondering whether it is possible to train yourself to sleep less, and if this is possible without obvious subjective negatives (constant tiredness and irritability, for example) or whether there are hidden negatives which will become more relevant in the long term (such as ageing faster, a weakened immune system, and higher incidence of stress-related illness, for example).

 

As I understand it the general school of thought is that human beings need an average of 8 hours sleep per 24 hour period to function optimally - and, although there can be some variation depending on the individual, it is generally not possible to train yourself to sleep less.

 

The author of this article, however - http://www.sleepwarr...-is-it-possible - seems to think differently. I have quoted the most interesting part of the article below:

 

 

One older study published in the journal Psychophysiology suggests that we can adapt to restricted sleep.

 

The study monitored six 8-hour sleepers for more than one year. All six subjects started off with their usual 8 hours of sleep, but then reduced to 7.5 a night for a few weeks. Then to 7.0 for a few weeks. Then to 6.5, etc. Through this gradual reduction, two subjects reached the 5.5-hour mark, two reduced to 5.0, and the last two reduced to 4.5 (yikes). Throughout this entire process, all subjects kept their wake-up times consistent, something very important in optimizing sleep quality.

 

So how did the subjects do?

  1. As sleep was reduced, time spent in light sleep was also reduced
  2. Time spent in deep sleep (stage 3 and stage 4) increased despite the decrease in total sleep time (!).
  3. Time spent in REM reduced significantly.

That’s interesting, right? Well, here’s the kicker:

 

After this sleep study ended, and subjects were allowed to sleep as much as they wanted, all subjects slept 1-2 hours less than their pre-study baseline! That is, these 8-hours sleepers naturally reverted to 6 to 7 hours of sleep per night instead of 8.

Be warned, however, because below the 5.5 mark subjects reported “severe fatigue and reduced efficiency”.

Our finding that 6 of our subjects continued to sleep below baseline levels a year after the end of regulated sleep was of particular interest… These data, along with the similar results from the 2 subjects studied by Johnson and MacLeod (1973), suggest that gradual sleep reduction may be an effective way to reduce [total sleep time] by 1 to 2 hrs and may permanently alter sleep habits or requirements.

Here’s something else I found interesting from the study: “Subjects reported that it often took 7 to 10 days to adapt to new reduced sleep levels.” So every time they reduced sleep by 30 minutes it took a week or two for things to “click” — hmm, sound familiar?

I you want to try out a “sleep restriction diet”, keep the following in mind:

  1. Sleep restriction is easier when your sleep quality is already very good.
  2. It might take 7 to 10 days of tiredness for your new schedule to “click” — that is, no sleeping in on weekends, keep it consistent.
  3. Try to reduce sleep 30 minutes at a time. So if you sleep 8 hours, go for 7.5 for a couple weeks, then 7.0.
  4. Most sleep studies show that continually sleeping below 6 hours will cause severe fatigue, don’t get too ambitious.
  5. Aim for 1 hour reduction if you’re an 8-hour sleeper. Use positive changes in diet and lifestyle to help push past that. Don’t underestimate the benefit of 1 extra hour each day. That’s over nine extra 40-hour work weeks per year.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

I remember when I was stacking several 'racetams for a few weeks they initially seemed to cut my need for sleep to around only 5.5 hours per night, but this did not feel very sustainable and I experienced negative effects such as fatigue and irritability. That said, even though in this case, the inability to sleep for long periods was chemically induced, I may just not have given myself time to adjust.

 

I would also be interested in whether a reduced sleep cycle would be less viable for certain lifestyles. For example, could a professional athlete (or semi-professional, let's say, to allow some time for an adjustment period) who needs to be able to build and sustain muscle mass and function at optimal alertness adjust to needing only 6 hours of sleep a night?

 

I guess what I am really wondering is whether, assuming that the human body CAN, SEEMINGLY adjust to needing less sleep, is this the result of the body becoming more efficient at the usual maintenance functions that occur while we are sleeping, or is it that the body simply begins to take more shortcuts? Obviously the former is a more desirable outcome than the latter.


Edited by Xenthide, 27 April 2014 - 02:06 PM.

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#2 Xenthide

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 05:06 PM

Another study that claims 6.5 hours is an optimum amount for most people, although I can't comment really on the accuracy or reputability of the study:

 

http://health.ucsd.e..._08_Kripke.html



#3 TheFountain

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 08:45 PM

What is this obsession with sleeping less? I think it is unhealthy to the max. Especially if you are somebody who suffers from some degree of mental disease. 

 

Personally I get anywhere from 8-15 hours a night, and I do not regret it a single bit, because I know I need it. Irritability is a sign of that, as is the need for constant caffeination. 

 

You should be obsessed with how to sleep MORE not with how to sleep less. For the sake of both present health and future health. 


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#4 TheFountain

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:35 PM

Here, this thread might be helpful.

 

http://www.longecity...e-sleep-i-need/



#5 Xenthide

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 07:48 AM

I think the reason that many people have tried to sleep less should be obvious... you can't get anything done while you're sleeping, and more time awake means more time to enjoy life.

 

Unless you're a professional athlete I think if you need to sleep more than 10 hours a night that might be indicative of a need to seek medical advice... 15 hours is just way too long.

 


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#6 TheFountain

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 04:34 PM

I think the reason that many people have tried to sleep less should be obvious... you can't get anything done while you're sleeping, and more time awake means more time to enjoy life.

 

Unless you're a professional athlete I think if you need to sleep more than 10 hours a night that might be indicative of a need to seek medical advice... 15 hours is just way too long.

 

 Non-sense.

 

As far as enjoying life? 

 

Don't expect to enjoy much of it being irritable and over tired all the time. 

 

I think when an individual needs at least 8 hours of sleep a night, and ends up sleeping anywhere between 8-15 hours a night it is the bodies modus operandi of self reparation and to ignore that is just dumb. 

 

Especially if you are active. You don't need to be a "professional athlete" to not devise a way to sleep only 3 hours a night so you can go hang out at starbucks with your friends all night. 

 

As a matter of fact you should be encouraging the people you care about to get more sleep as well!


Edited by TheFountain, 29 April 2014 - 04:35 PM.

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#7 Xenthide

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:02 AM

No one else has any opinion or experience one way or the other?  :|?



#8 nupi

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:32 PM

It cannot be done.  You may be able to shave of a couple of minutes on the margins, but ultimately, it wont help you one bit (you will feel miserable all the time if you do it to any significant degree - trust me, I tried)


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#9 onz

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:06 PM

I think TheFountain has misunderstood the nature of your post Xenthide. Sleep is certainly beneficial and necessary for repair and regeneration, but it would be ideal if we could obtain all the benefits with less time investment. 

 

It would be amazing to discover the mechanism behind regenerative sleep and learn to exploit it. It is a very worthwhile endeavour as the less sleep required means more productivity and pleasure, more time living and enjoying life :)

 

When trying to reduce the amount of time spent sleeping, one must measure it's long range success without the use of stimulant drugs (and supps?) - to ensure you're not compromising your health for less sleep.

 

AFAIK, currently the only way we can judge our sleep efficacy is by time spent in REM and slow-wave/delta sleep, these are the most beneficial stages of sleep so if you maximise your time spent in these stages you'll be able to spend less time 'sleeping'. But exactly how much you can reduce your current time will depend on many factors: lifestyle, diet, age, biology, etc.

 

The most effective sleep aid for REM that I've used is melatonin, although I don't have one of those REM measurement devices so my judgement is subjective. If you're on a high protein diet, ornithine may help. Magnesium is also commonly recommended. There is a fine line between things to help put you to sleep and things that actually improve sleep quality, benzos are well known for inducing sleep but not inducing REM and SW stages. I have heard of using a CES device, it sounds interesting but I haven't read much on it: http://www.cesultra.com/faq.htm



#10 goodman

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:32 PM

modafinil hehe...but i wish i wasnt such a sleeper as well

#11 Bubbles

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:44 PM

No direct sources to refer this statement, but I know that people with a high chi energy, usually very active and on-the-flow, requires less sleep. Sure, you need to eat very good too. And no, depriving yourself too much just to compensate in the weekends with some extra sleep, doesn't actually help you as you think it would. Choose what it suits you best from 5-6 or 7 hours. Either amount, just try to go gradually to reach what you want, or else it will be difficult.


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#12 docTorpedo

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:05 PM

Nikola Tesla reportedly slept very little. Can't say he did too bad with regards to reaching 87 years and doing all that thinking.



#13 Ari

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:42 PM

I practiced the Uberman sleep schedule for a few weeks (I think about two months total) when I was younger. The Uberman schedule means you sleep for 20 minutes every four hours, for a total of 2 hours per day. During the first week, it's torture and you're walking along like a zombie, but after a while, the body adapts and you go straight to REM sleep, getting close to 2 hours of it each day (where most people get 1.5 hours, I believe).

 

After the weaning period, I felt completely rested and alert on this schedule. I suspect, however, that I might have tested badly on mental performance tests. I felt fine, but that doesn't mean I was. I dunno. It's probably not healthy to skip all that deep sleep. All that extra time was pretty neat, though!

 

Ultimately, this schedule naturally proved impossible to sustain in modern society. Needing to have a nap every four hours is pretty difficult to incorporate in a working or social life, and missing one of those naps had the same effect as missing a full night's sleep on a normal sleep schedule, leaving me completely exhausted and zombie-like.


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#14 Glazing Agent

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:12 AM

A lot of people equate sleep as primarily a mental(non-physical) process in regards to what it's doing for the brain. Recent research shows that it's very much a process of physically cleaning the tissues and cells: flushing out toxins and other such debris. As you well know, running a sleep debt leaves you feeling a little gross, crappy and fuzzy brained... This is literally the result of having an unclean brain as it were. You feel gross because your brain is gross.

If you enhance your body's janitorial abilities, or reduce the amount of garbage it needs to clean in the first place, you can reduce the necessary amount needed. Doing cardiovascular exercise after drinking a lot of water when sleep deprived can also flush out a lot of crud and in a pinch can make up for a substantial amount of lost sleep... Better would be to do this trick at the end of the day (though not too close to bed time) and you'll give your body a head start on the cleaning process and you'll likely find that you need significantly less sleep to feel the same level of rest.

Personally, I jog for an hour and a half (in 3 sessions) every day and thrive on 5 hours without fatigue.

 

So, it is indeed possible, though, you need to work for it to work.   


Edited by Glazing Agent, 03 August 2014 - 03:24 AM.


#15 redFishBlueFish

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:21 AM

What we are speaking of in this thread is polyphasic sleep. The key to polyphasic sleep is training and quality sleep. There is a forum dedicated to this practice, but I don't know if we are allowed to link such things.

There are many tools used to assist hacking your way to REM sleep so you can take advantage of polyphasic patterns.

http://en.wikipedia....olyphasic_sleep

Go down to the "Claimed sleep patterns" section and see all the patterns commonly used. But, the key to being polyphasic is always keeping your debt down. If you ignore your debt, your body will force you to take care of the debt when it wants it. When I say debt, I mean lack of sleep. REM sleep that is. Using special light, monitors, and others techniques help with this as well.

From my understanding, the only people that can do dymaxion are ones who have a specific genetic mutation that allows their body to be satisfied with 30 minute naps. Like Ari, I could never do uberman because I don't have the schedule availability to do such a schedule. I would have to be single and work for myself to be able to handle that schedule.

I don't use any of the techniques spoke about at other places, but with the stack I am building, I want to build a sleep stack next to it and use the tools spoken of at other places. The schedule I am on is called the Everyman (with 3 naps) schedule. It is much better than the Dymaxion schedule I was on. Two years ago I was on the Dymaxion schedule and that was utter hell for 1.5 years. I would sleep 30 minutes between places, sleep 30 minutes at lunch, sleep 30 minutes between places again, then sleep 30 minutes at one place. I will never do that ever again. I would have to randomly find a place to sleep because I was always in debt, it was annoying.

When I was a Monophasic, it sucked. I lagged so bad, it was hard to get going. Eventually I just didn't have time and only slept 6 off and on. It was 2 one day, napped for 4, then the next day was sleep 4 for, nap for 2. It was really bad. Everyman has let me have a normal sleep schedule and to be honest, I wouldn't go back to monophasic. I have lots of extra time and spend it here on longecity. lol.

As far as sleeping more than 8 hours, up to 15, there is an issue going on here. Either you have depression, severe sleep apnea, or something else is not letting you get into REM sleep. A sleep monitor would help you figure out if you are getting sleep. Only you know if you are depressed. Sleep apnea can be tested and cheap if you have insurance, if you can't afford it, you can go buy the cpap machine with out a prescription from a pharmacy store.





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