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Please describe your diet and justify it.

diet nutrients life extension vegan

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#1 Methodician

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 05:26 PM


My diet could be described as personalized and paleo-inspired. Low-protein, moderate carb, high fat. Real food, mostly plants, not too much.

 

Almost nothing I eat is highly processed with the exception of olive oil and a few other oils. I rarely eat out because you can't control the quality of the food you get. Almost every meal/ingredient is painstakingly cooked and prepared at home. I eat some meat/animal foods but strive to consume only healthy, happy animals because believe it or not sick, sad animals can make you sick and sad. I could pretend there's a moral element but to be honest I rarely think about the animal's psychological well being beyond how it affects my own.

 

I eat a diet that is about 80-90% plant-derived by weight, but about 40/60 animal/plant by calories. This is because I follow a relatively high fat diet, largely inspired by the Perfect Health Diet but taking bits and pieces from other research.

 

Lately I've been further minimizing muscle meat, getting most of my protein from my veggies and non-muscle animal tissues, and eating lots rendered animal fats.

Most of the animal food I eat is nutrient dense such as liver, skin, and adipose tissue. I eat lots of egg yolks (very little egg whites) but am considering a reduction due to the omega 6 content (but where else to get choline?)

 

I avoid grains 95% and legumes 80%, rarely touching either. Most of my carbs come from USO's (Underground Storage Organs like potatoes, carrots, onions, etc...) and piles of fruit.

 

Fibrous veggies and roughage cause some digestive malaise or I'd eat more of them. Some I tolerate well are: asparagus, cabbage, some romaine, raw spinach in moderation, well-cooked broccoli in moderation...

 

I cook in lots of olive oil, butter, and rendered duck/beef fat. I eat lots of coconut meat and a bit of coconut oil. EVOO probably accounts for around 25% of my total calories.

 

I try to balance my amino acids by minimizing things like leucine and methinoine and increasing consumption of things like glycine. This is based mostly on studies done with rats.

I try to balance fatty acids by eliminating industrial seed oils and eating fish or supplementing fish oil a couple times per week. I'm always looking to reduce total PUFA consumption but that tends to come at the expense of other nutrients.

 

I try to 'experience hunger' 1-2 times per day as I believe this is therapeutic.

 

I supplement regularly with vitamin E and D, and with magnesium. I take other vitamins and minerals such as vitamin C, selenium, zinc, and iodine on an as-needed basis.

I try to eat some liver 2-6 times per month and eat 2-5 egg yolks 3-6 times per week. I'm planning to incorporate weekly oysters as well. I consider these almost on the same level as supplements. As I learn more, I'm trying to eliminate as many supplements as possible and replace them with concentrated real food sources. Zinc, for instance, I can take off my supplement list if I get oysters once a week. Selenium is close to being eliminated too.

 

I compulsively track my diet on cronometer.com. This is a habit I'd like to reduce to about 1 week per month when I finally feel that my diet is consistent and healthy enough not to worry day-to-day. For now it's a game of filling in the bars and producing reassuring graphs. Hopefully I'm not stressing myself out with this more than it's worth.

 

Justification:

I believe a vegan diet misses out on some of the most healthy and nutrient dense foods or else I'd just eat plants and would barely miss meat. I don't think an "all natural" vegan diet could ever be optimally healthy. You have to supplement and/or go out of your way to obtain trace nutrients that are otherwise abundant in certain animal tissues. Aside from this, I eat as wide a variety of plants as my palate and gut will allow. Those I dislike or have trouble digesting, I minimize or eliminate. Plants contain such a vast array of non-essential phytonutrients, particularly deeply colored fruits and veggies, that I seek them out with zeal. Certain plant tissues, however, have evolved strong deterrents to animal consumption (such as seeds and leaves) and so I limit consumption of these plant tissues.

 

I believe that PUFA's cause unnecessary oxidative stress so I get most of my fat from saturated and monounsaturated sources. I balance n6:n3 ratios because I believe excessive n6:n3 ratio leads to systemic inflammation.

 

I believe that excessive carbohydrates (and protein) cause all kinds of biological signals to flood your system and promote aging, but I don't think LCHF diets are optimal, so I strike a balance for now.

 

I don't practice chronic CR because in all my research I've come across very little to support it. It appears that, in humans, CR's beneficial effects are transient. Biological aging signals appear to stabilize in people experiencing long-term CR, especially if they eat a high protein diet (particularly high in leucine for its appetite-suppressing effects even though leucine promotes aging). It appears that similar results can be obtained in rats and even humans by tweaking the balance of amino acids and periodically fasting. Fasting, though, is something I have yet to incorporate but keep thinking about.

 

What about you?


Edited by Methodician, 01 May 2014 - 05:27 PM.

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#2 Phoenicis

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:23 PM

my diet is vegan - lots of vegetables, fruit, whole grains, legumes, nuts, spices, olive oil and low on gluten, processed foods, refined sugar.

 

the primary reason for me choosing this diet is as a treatment for psoriasis, an autoimmune condition. I tried the paleo diet before switching to this one and did not see any significant improvement. There were also lots of ideas circulating like, avoid nightshades, citrus etc. but I quickly found that these 'rebel' ideologies didn't really address inflammation and also did not have very much convincing science to back them up.

 

In a nutshell the reason why a vegan diet has rid me of the phenotypes of psoriasis is because it avoids inflammatory compounds (these are in virtually all meat and dairy products) -

 

Arachidonic Acid - this compound also plays a part in cancer, asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune disorders.

Animal Protein - Increased overall risk of mortality here (under 65s), here, here, here, here, As Darryl pointed out in this thread we also know of two distinct lifespan extension pathways; these are leucine moderation and methionine restriction. "Leucine moderation (and perhaps moderation of other BCAAS, as well as aromatic AAs) functions through the insulin/IGF-1/mTOR pathway. Methionine restriction, while reducing DNA methylation, and IIS/mTOR growth signalling as with other essential amino acids, may function uniquely through reductions in mitochondrial oxidative stress (much as mitochondrially targetted SOD expression, MitoQ, or membrane decoupling by DNP or C60 would)."

 

Another nice cache Darryl put together:

We've known for 15 years that high methionine and [leucine] proteins stimulate IGF-1 signalling and cancer proliferation. The most interesting thing about this study was the bimodality of response, with protein no longer being so deletorious (at least with respect to cancer) after age 65.

I speculate that lower availability of viable stem cells for tranfsormation to cancer, and the need for some growth signalling to delay frailty and immune decline in our senior years, are at work here.

 

 

Methionine - restriction is a strategy in both cancer growth control as well as lifespan extension. Notice that 40% Restriction does not decrease growth rate and body size in rats.

Leucine - mTOR stimulation and increase IGF-1, as Darryl notes in this thread, most of us have become accustomed to eating more protein than we need. 

 

Moderation, not restriction indeed. The World Heath Organization's leucine requirement is 39 mg/kg/day, with a considerable safety margin. That's 2.34 g for a 60 kg person, 2.73 g for a 70 kg person etc.

 

So how much leucine do Americans get?

 

percentile  leucine (g)
1st         2.3
5th         3.1
10th        3.6
25th        4.5
50th        5.8
75th        7.3
90th        8.9
95th       10.1 
99th       12.6 
mean        6.1
 
Most are getting mTOR signalling from 2-500% of their lean tissue leucine requirements, and this was before the low-carb craze.
 
The recent study indicating a biphasic response of mortality to dietary protein suggests low-protein till 65-70, followed by higher levels to prevent frailty, sarcopenia, thereafter. Perhaps a diet sufficent to keep one in the 19-22 optimum BMI.
 
Practically for those under 65, it just means sating hunger with fiber rather than hypothalamic mTOR signalling, I hope when I reach that threshold in 25 years we'll have effective myostatin inhibitors and other means to prevent the downside of mTOR moderation. 

 

 

Another useful quote  from Michael in this thread -

 

"On the CR list, Al Pater recently pointed to (1), an useful review on metabolic pathways modulated by -- and possibly involved in the anti-aging, life-extending effects of -- CR. One central focus of the paper is the mTOR pathway. There is now a great deal of converging evidence (as is dug into in much more detail in (2) (also available full-text thanks to Al)) that inhibiting mTOR plays a significant role in CR's anti-aging life extension effects -- most recently including the breakthrough report of robust life extension in mice using the rapamycin, an mTOR-inhibiting drug (3). This suggests that lowering leucine intake may enhance this mechanism of CR's effects.

Along with Calories and insulin signaling, a key regulator of mTOR is the branched-chain amino acid leucine, and there are now many reports (eg. (11-19)) that intake of either isolated leucine, or whey protein (which is unusually enriched in this and other BCAAs), enhances mTOR signaling relative to other aminos or proteins in rats and humans alike. This, in fact, is the basis for a lot of whey's popularity with bodybuilders: by activating mTOR, leucine (and to a lesser extent other branched-chain aminos) inhibits autophagic catabolism of muscle, leading to higher net muscle protein.

Of course, that same enhanced signaling inhibits the recycling of defective and damaged proteins, which is likely one of the core reasons that CR and other modes of mTOR inhibition retard aging.

Leucine is ubiquitous in protein, so one straightforward way to lower your leucine intake is to just cut your protein intake. Alternatively/additionally, because the amount of leucine per unit protein does vary quite a bit from food to food (whey protein being exceptionally high, as its vendors will enthusiastically remind you), you can look for foods low in leucine per unit protein with Nutritiondata.com's nutrient search tool.

A couple of gems from my own digging for relatively protein-rich foods low in leucine AND methionine: lentils and fava beans. A simple and tasty-sounding recipe I found for the latter:
 

Quote

Fool Medames (Egyptian Beans)
1 lb Dried sm. fava or pink beans
Lightly salted water
1/2 c Red lentils
3 tb Lemon juice
1/4 c Olive oil
1/2 ts Cumin, ground
Salt and pepper to taste
1/2 c Green onions, chopped

Sort and rinse dried beans. Place in a large saucepan and add lightly salted water to cover. Bring to a boil. Reduce heat and cover. Simmer over low heat 2 1/2 hours. If necessary, add more water to keep beans covered. Add lentils and cover. Simmer 30 minutes longer or until lentils and beans are tender and mixture is thick but not soupy. Stir in lemon juice, olive oil, cumin, salt and freshly ground pepper. Serve hot, sprinkling each serving with a portion of green onions.

The same site has many other fava bean recipes, and indeed recipes for a variety of legumes.

FWIW, replacing casein with lactalbumin (~70% of the protein in whey) in AL diets doesn't seem to affect longevity in F344 rats, whereas using soy is clearly better for them (4,5); however, this may not mean much, as F344s are somewhat weird animals to work with because of their high vulnerability to nephropathy, which soy protein significantly alleviates. Lactalbumin has inconsistent (depending especially on gender) but generally favorable effects compared with commercial diets in hamsters (6,7); and it was reported to extend longevity when substituted for casein late in life in mice (8), possibly due to the presence of precursors of glutathione, during the time when age-related oxidative stress has begun to set in and recycling of GSH becomes impaired.

-Michael

1. Metabolic reprogramming, caloric restriction and aging. Anderson RM, Weindruch R. Trends Endocrinol Metab. [Epub ahead of print] PMID: 20004110

2. The TOR pathway comes of age. Stanfel MN, Shamieh LS, Kaeberlein M, Kennedy BK. Biochim Biophys Acta. 2009 Jun 15. [Epub ahead of print] PMID: 19539012

3. Harrison DE, Strong R, Sharp ZD, Nelson JF, Astle CM, Flurkey K, Nadon NL, Wilkinson JE, Frenkel K, Carter CS, Pahor M, Javors MA, Fernandez E, Miller RA. Rapamycin fed late in life extends lifespan in genetically heterogeneous mice. Nature. 2009 Jul 16;460(7253):392-5. Epub 2009 Jul 8. PubMed PMID: 19587680; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC2786175.

4. Shimokawa I, Higami Y, Yu BP, Masoro EJ, Ikeda T. Influence of dietary components on occurrence of and mortality due to neoplasms in male F344 rats. Aging (Milano). 1996 Aug;8(4):254-62. PubMed PMID: 8904955.

5. Shimokawa I, Higami Y, Hubbard GB, McMahan CA, Masoro EJ, Yu BP. Diet and the suitability of the male Fischer 344 rat as a model for aging research. J Gerontol. 1993 Jan;48(1):B27-32. PubMed PMID: 8418135.

6. Birt DF, Schuldt GH, Salmasi S. Survival of hamsters fed graded levels of two protein sources. Lab Anim Sci. 1982 Aug;32(4):363-6. PubMed PMID: 7144109.

5. Birt DF, Baker PY, Hruza DS. Nutritional evaluations of three dietary levels of lactalbumin throughout the lifespan of two generations of Syrian hamsters. J Nutr. 1982 Nov;112(11):2151-60. PubMed PMID: 7131092.

8. Bounous G, Gervais F, Amer V, Batist G, Gold P. The influence of dietary whey protein on tissue glutathione and the diseases of aging. Clin Invest Med. 1989 Dec;12(6):343-9. PubMed PMID: 2692897.

11: Drummond MJ, Rasmussen BB. Leucine-enriched nutrients and the regulation of mammalian target of rapamycin signalling and human skeletal muscle protein synthesis. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2008 May;11(3):222-6. Review. PubMed PMID: 18403916.

12: Dreyer HC, Drummond MJ, Pennings B, Fujita S, Glynn EL, Chinkes DL, Dhanani S, Volpi E, Rasmussen BB. Leucine-enriched essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion following resistance exercise enhances mTOR signaling and protein synthesis in human muscle. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Feb;294(2):E392-400. Epub 2007 Dec 4. PubMed PMID: 18056791; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC2706121.

13: Stipanuk MH. Leucine and protein synthesis: mTOR and beyond. Nutr Rev. 2007 Mar;65(3):122-9. Review. PubMed PMID: 17425063.

14: Norton LE, Layman DK. Leucine regulates translation initiation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle after exercise. J Nutr. 2006 Feb;136(2):533S-537S. PubMed PMID: 16424142.

15: Norton LE, Layman DK, Bunpo P, Anthony TG, Brana DV, Garlick PJ. The leucine content of a complete meal directs peak activation but not duration of skeletal muscle protein synthesis and mammalian target of rapamycin signaling in rats. J Nutr. 2009 Jun;139(6):1103-9. Epub 2009 Apr 29. PubMed PMID: 19403715.

16: Hulmi JJ, Tannerstedt J, Selänne H, Kainulainen H, Kovanen V, Mero AA. Resistance exercise with whey protein ingestion affects mTOR signaling pathway and myostatin in men. J Appl Physiol. 2009 May;106(5):1720-9. Epub 2009 Mar 19. PubMed PMID: 19299575.

17: Anthony TG, McDaniel BJ, Knoll P, Bunpo P, Paul GL, McNurlan MA. Feeding meals containing soy or whey protein after exercise stimulates protein synthesis and translation initiation in the skeletal muscle of male rats. J Nutr. 2007 Feb;137(2):357-62. PubMed PMID: 17237311.

18: Cota D, Proulx K, Smith KA, Kozma SC, Thomas G, Woods SC, Seeley RJ. Hypothalamic mTOR signaling regulates food intake. Science. 2006 May 12;312(5775):927-30. PubMed PMID: 16690869.

19: Wu P, Jiang C, Shen Q, Hu Y. Systematic gene expression profile of hypothalamus in calorie-restricted mice implicates the involvement of mTOR signaling in neuroprotective activity. Mech Ageing Dev. 2009 Sep;130(9):602-10. Epub 2009 Jul 30. PubMed PMID: 19647013."

 

 

 

"the mTOR pathway has been shown to play a role in regulating the immune response, not only in myeloid cells but also in keratinocytes,[4] and potentially contributes to cytokine production in psoriasis.[5] As psoriasis is also considered a hyperproliferative disorder, thus requiring enhanced cell growth, we examined the activation status of mTOR signalling in psoriatic lesions. We report for the first time an increase in mTOR expression and phosphorylation in lesional and nonlesional psoriatic skin compared with healthy skin. In addition, mTOR is hyperphosphorylated in the basal layer of lesional skin. Moreover, ribosomal protein S6 was found to be activated in suprabasal, differentiating layers of lesional psoriatic skin. This suggests a role of mTOR signalling in the pathogenesis of psoriasis."

[...]

"Altogether these results suggest a role for mTOR signalling in the epidermal changes leading to the psoriatic phenotype. mTOR inhibition might be a mode of action to explore in developing innovative antipsoriatic drugs."

 

So leucine restriction (possible via vegan diet / low protein) -> less mTOR.-> less psoriatic phenotype

 

Then there is also saturated fat, aromatic hydrocarbons and endotoxins which are not only unhealthy but are also linked to autoimmune conditions.

 

As far as fish goes, the protein is again an issue and then theres also the increasing issue of contaminants which is only going to get worse.

endocrine disruptors:

More fiber -

 

Legumes, fruits and vegetables are great sources of fiber which are fermented in our gut into compounds like butyrate which is an HDAC inhibitor and is great for healthy epigenetics and treating diseases like psoriasis.

 

 

Phytates are also great for cancer prevention -

 

R. Greiner, U. Konietzny, K. D. Jany. Phytate - an undesirable constituent of plant-based foods? Journal fur Ernahrungsmedizin 2006 8(3):18 - 28.

I. Vucenik, A. M. Shamsuddin. Protection against cancer by dietary IP6 and inositol. Nutr Cancer 2006 55(2):109 - 125.

R. P. Singh, R. Agarwal. Prostate cancer and inositol hexaphosphate: Efficacy and mechanisms. Anticancer Res. 2005 25(4):2891 - 2903.

G. L. Deliliers, F. Servida, N. S. Fracchiolla, C. Ricci, C. Borsotti, G. Colombo, D. Soligo. Effect of inositol hexaphosphate (IP6) on human normal and leukaemic haematopoietic cells. British journal of haematology 2002 117(3):577 - 587.

E. Graf, J. W. Eaton. Dietary suppression of colonic cancer fiber or phytate? Cancer 1985 56(4):717 - 718.

O. Manousos, N. E. Day, D. Trichopoulos, F. Gerovassilis, A. Tzonou, A. Polychronopoulou. Diet and colorectal cancer: A case-control study in Greece. International Journal of Cancer 1983 32(1):1 - 5.

I. Vucenik, A. Passaniti, M. I. Vitolo, K. Tantivejkul, P. Eggleton, A. M. Shamsuddin. Anti-angiogenic activity of inositol hexaphosphate (IP6). Carcinogenesis 2004 25(11):2115 - 2123.

A. K. M. Shamsuddin, I. Vucenik. IP6 & inositol in cancer prevention and therapy. Current Cancer Therapy Reviews 2005 1(3):259 - 269.

M. Kapral, J. Wawszczyk, M. Jurzak, A. Hollek, L. Węglarz. The effect of inositol hexaphosphate on the expression of selected metalloproteinases and their tissue inhibitors in IL-1B-stimulated colon cancer cells. Int J Colorectal Dis 2012 27(11):1419 - 1428.

E. Lanza, T. J. Hartman, P. S. Albert, R. Shields, M. Slattery, B. Caan, E. Paskett, F. Iber, J. W. Kikendall, P. Lance, others. High dry bean intake and reduced risk of advanced colorectal adenoma recurrence among participants in the polyp prevention trial. The J. Nutr. 2006 136(7):1896 - 1903.

A. M. Shamsuddin. Anti-cancer function of phytic acid. Int J Food Sci Tech 2002 37(7):769 - 782.

E. Lipski. Traditional non-Western diets. Nutr Clin Pract 2010 25(6):585 - 593.

G. Urbano, M. Lopez-Jurado, P. Aranda, C. Vidal-Valverde, E. Tenorio, J. Porres. The role of phytic acid in legumes: Antinutrient or beneficial function? J Physiol Biochem 2000 56(3):283 - 294.

S. D. Siah, I. Konczak, S. Agboola, J. A. Wood, C. L. Blanchard. In vitro investigations of the potential health benefits of Australian-grown faba beans (Vicia faba L.): Chemopreventative capacity and inhibitory effects on the angiotensin-converting enzyme, a-glucosidase and lipase. Br. J. Nutr. 2012 108 - Suppl - 1:S123 - 34.

A. M. Shamsuddin, I. Vucenik, K. E. Cole. IP6: A novel anti-cancer agent. Life Sci. 1997 61(4):343 - 354.

B. e. Stodolak, A. Starzy'nska, M. Czyszczo'n, K. Z. yla. The effect of phytic acid on oxidative stability of raw and cooked meat. Food Chem. 2007 101(3):1041 - 1045.

U. Schlemmer, W. Frolich, R. M. Prieto, F. Grases. Phytate in foods and significance for humans: Food sources, intake, processing, bioavailability, protective role and analysis. Mol Nutr Food Res 2009 53 - Suppl - 2:S330 - 75.

H. N. Englyst, S. A. Bingham, H. S. Wiggins, D. A. Southgate, R. Seppänen, P. Helms, V. Anderson, K. C. Day, R. Choolun, E. Collinson, J. H. Cummings. Nonstarch polysaccharide consumption in four Scandinavian populations. Nutr Cancer 1982 4(1):50 - 60.

R Doll. The Geographical Distribution of Cancer. BJC 1969 23(1):1-8.

P. N. Singh, G. E. Fraser. Dietary risk factors for colon cancer in a low-risk population. Am. J. Epidemiol. 1998 148(8):761 - 774.

I. Vucenik, A. M. Shamsuddin. Cancer inhibition by inositol hexaphosphate (IP6) and inositol: From laboratory to clinic. J. Nutr. 2003 133(11 - Suppl - 1):3778S - 3784S.

D. P. Burkitt. Epidemiology of cancer of the colon and rectum. 1971. Dis. Colon Rectum 1993 36(11):1071 - 1082.

H. P. Lee, L. Gourley, S. W. Duffy, J. Est`eve, J. Lee, N. E. Day. Colorectal cancer and diet in an Asian population--a case-control study among Singapore Chinese. Int. J. Cancer 1989 43(6):1007 - 1016.

B Harland. Phytate: a good or a bad food component? Nutr Res 1995 15(5):733-754.

I. Baci'c, N. Druzijani'c, R. Karlo, I. Skifi'c, S. Jagi'c. Efficacy of IP6 + inositol in the treatment of breast cancer patients receiving chemotherapy: Prospective, randomized, pilot clinical study. J. Exp. Clin. Cancer Res. 2010 29:12.

 

In relation to supplements

  • B12 deficiency actually effects omnivores too, vegans must be aware and supplement (many omnivores do not). 
  • Taurine homeostasis is usually maintained via biosynthesis and its also found in sea weed.
  • Creatine is also normally maintained via biosynthesis, but can be supplemented as a nootropic
  • algae omega 3s / EPA & DHA
  • vitamin D 5000 iu

I do follow a vegan diet but I am indeed also careful to avoid malnutrition. My diet is not a natural vegan diet, but I'm a transhumanist so I would optimize it anyways! Animal products taste good when you're used to them, but taste response adapts to dietary changes (1),(2), and to me plant based diets taste good after getting used to them. I cook more dishes using spices like turmeric now that I've become vegan and feel better than ever. Also every time I choose an animal product, I'm missing out on a chance to eat something with fiber and phytonutrients. I only can eat so much.

 

 

I've also observed that epigenetic agents such as curcumin actually have much more noticeable effects by decreasing the expression of pro-inflammatory cytokines and inflammation in general. This is presumably because of more butyrate from fibre and because the threshold of inflammation to be overcome for effects to become noticeable is likely lower due to lower inflammation, which in turn can be linked to less animal products.  

 

BONUS - Synergy of curcumin and resveratrol:

 

http://onlinelibrary...06.03257.x/full

http://link.springer...0-0179-5#page-1

 

why it matters to psoriais:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12973418

 

This is Longecity! Supplements aren't cheating, this is an immortality website, we're all trying to to cheat death. Let me add in vitamin D3 and  for good measure.

 

(1) C. A. Blais, R. M. Pangborn, N. O. Borhani, M. F. Ferrell, R. J. Prineas, B. Laing. Effect of dietary sodium restriction on taste responses to sodium chloride: A longitudinal study. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1986 44(2):232 - 243. 

(2) F. G. Grieve, M. W. V. Weg. Desire to eat high- and low-fat foods following a low-fat dietary intervention. J Nutr Educ Behav 2003 35(2):98 - 102. 


Edited by Phoenicis, 01 May 2014 - 08:17 PM.

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#3 Methodician

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:33 PM

my diet is vegan - lots of vegetables, fruit, whole grains, legumes, nuts, spices, olive oil and low on gluten, processed foods, refined sugar.

 

Thanks for your in-depth response. I have a few questions and comments...

 

Regarding methinoine you may find this study interesting.

 

I'm not going to read all the sources you linked but if you could narrow it down to a few of the more compelling and easily digestible ones I'd give them a read. I also don't mind links to articles and pop-sci style meta-studies like this one. (duplicate link below)

 

Questions:

Why the emphasis on fiber?

What harm could come from a couple ounces of liver per week? That would alleviate many deficiencies in an otherwise vegan diet.

What's bad about saturated fat? Consider this possibly bias blurb by Paul Jaminet.



#4 Phoenicis

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:52 PM

 

my diet is vegan - lots of vegetables, fruit, whole grains, legumes, nuts, spices, olive oil and low on gluten, processed foods, refined sugar.

 

Thanks for your in-depth response. I have a few questions and comments...

 

Regarding methinoine you may find this study interesting.

 

I'm not going to read all the sources you linked but if you could narrow it down to a few of the more compelling and easily digestible ones I'd give them a read. I also don't mind links to articles and pop-sci style meta-studies like this one. (duplicate link below)

 

Questions:

Why the emphasis on fiber?

What harm could come from a couple ounces of liver per week? That would alleviate many deficiencies in an otherwise vegan diet.

What's bad about saturated fat? Consider this possibly bias blurb by Paul Jaminet.

 

 

Thanks for posting that link to the glycine study, looks like really useful stuff. Have you tried it? Its alot of sources, that why I tried to attach links with the titles, that way people can skim over some.

 

Regarding fiber:

 

Butyrate: "Butyrate is a short chain fatty acid derived from the microbial fermentation of dietary fibers in the colon. In the last decade, multiple beneficial effects of butyrate at intestinal and extraintestinal level have been demonstrated. The mechanisms of action of butyrate are different and many of these involve an epigenetic regulation of gene expression through the inhibition of histone deacetylase. [...] The principle mechanisms through which butyrate exerts its anti-inflammatory effects are the suppression of nuclear factor B (NFkB) activation, the inhibition of interferon g production and the upregulation of peroxi- some proliferator-activated receptor g (PPARg), which may result from the inhibition of HDAC..."

 

Good sources of butyrate are fibers like FOS and RS (resistant starch), lots of people use Bobs Red Mill Potato Starch; I use both FOS and RS and in addition I try to consume fruits and vegetable high in fiber.

 

Additional benefits of butyrate include enhanced memory & synaptic plasticity, neuron developmental plasticity and HDAC inhibitors are used in cancer treatment.

 

Currently I am investigating how butyrate may interact with other epigenetic agents such as resveratrol, curcumin and ECGC. It seems that interaction have only really been studied in relation to cancer therapies, where varying interactions are documented.

 

In this thread Celebes seems to show that butyrate will increase epigenome plasticity, which I find intruiging. As Tree notes, methyl groups are reduced in favor of acetyl groups. He considers that this is similar to erasing epigenetic changes which occured throughout life. 'Sounds' awesome.

 

HDAC inhibition is useful for so many things, check out these threads:

 

http://www.longecity...ic-experiments/

 

http://www.longecity...ntion-problems/

 

I'm open to discussing the deficiencies further, I think I covered the main ones. I also take 250mg extra CDP choline for nootropic purposes.  I know about a quarter of Caucasians have an impaired ability to convert beta-carotene into vitamin A. Wouldnt Cod liver oil be good for that since it contains preformed vitamin A? Generally I actually prefer the supplements because you're not getting the arachidonic acid etc.

 

I'm pretty sure the saturated fat debate is still ongoing and would like to hear others peoples views on it.

 

 


Edited by Phoenicis, 01 May 2014 - 09:02 PM.


#5 Phoenicis

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 12:22 AM

Now that I think of it, if people with psoriasis are worried, they can be replace RS (resistant potato starch) with fructooligosaccharides (FOS) for a few reasons. 

 

1) people with psoriasis often find that potatoes (not sweet or purple) worsen their condition and thus may not want to take RS.

 

2) FOS tastes sweet

 

3) FOS also yields butyrate:

-http://www.direct-ms...olon cancer.pdf

http://onlinelibrary...003.01836.x/pdf  (see study table pg.316)

 

4) FOS is a good prebiotic -"With respect to impacts on microbiotal composition, both substrates were prebiotics, although RPS was less powerful than FOS. Both FOS and RPS increased the caecocolonic pools of LABP, Lactobacillus sp. and Gram-positive cocci, but FOS also affected facultative anaerobes and its effect was more intense and perceptible throughout the caecocolonic tract. " (Ibid)


Edited by Phoenicis, 02 May 2014 - 12:29 AM.


#6 Methodician

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 07:48 PM

 

 

my diet is vegan - lots of vegetables, fruit, whole grains, legumes, nuts, spices, olive oil and low on gluten, processed foods, refined sugar.

 

Regarding methinoine you may find this study interesting.

 

Thanks for posting that link to the glycine study, looks like really useful stuff. Have you tried it? 

Yes, I have been incorporating it, along with leucine restriction and moderate methionine restriction (just looking for protein sources low in the stuff).

 

It's only been less than a month since I learnt of the glycine-methionine connection and even if I had "tried it" for many years, I'm not sure what I could tell you. I hope I'll live longer while still maintaining robust tissues (accidents are a leading cause of death).

 

I basically eat collagen rich things like pork skins, connective tissues, gelatinous broths, and some natural jello here and there while avoiding excessive muscle meat. Since collagen is the most abundant protein in mammals it makes intuitive sense to eat some. The proline might have benefits too. I have a lot more to learn, of course.

 

I'm shooting daily for 5-10 grams of glycine (numerous benefits beyond the methinoine connection) and about 2.4-4.5 grams leucine, and .7-1.4 grams methinoine. Not sure if those numbers are optimal and I welcome any studies (or even opinionated explanations) that could help us hone in on the best target zones for these and other amino acids.

 

I think the importance of individual amino acids and their relative balance is drastically under-emphasized by mainstream nutrition and wish to learn more.


Edited by Methodician, 02 May 2014 - 08:00 PM.


#7 Methodician

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:09 PM

Regarding fiber:

 

Butyrate: "Butyrate is a short chain fatty acid derived from the microbial fermentation of dietary fibers in the colon. In the last decade, multiple beneficial effects of butyrate at intestinal and extraintestinal level have been demonstrated. The mechanisms of action of butyrate are different and many of these involve an epigenetic regulation of gene expression through the inhibition of histone deacetylase. [...] The principle mechanisms through which butyrate exerts its anti-inflammatory effects are the suppression of nuclear factor B (NFkB) activation, the inhibition of interferon g production and the upregulation of peroxi- some proliferator-activated receptor g (PPARg), which may result from the inhibition of HDAC..."

 

Good sources of butyrate are fibers like FOS and RS (resistant starch), lots of people use Bobs Red Mill Potato Starch; I use both FOS and RS and in addition I try to consume fruits and vegetable high in fiber.

 

Additional benefits of butyrate include enhanced memory & synaptic plasticity, neuron developmental plasticity and HDAC inhibitors are used in cancer treatment.

 

While one of my early "paleo" experiences that I think greatly benefited me was a deliberate reduction in dietary fiber (solved a lot of ongoing digestive issues) I have since slowly re-introduced a variety of fibrous foods. It seems there is an acclimation period for most of them while my gut flora adjusts to it.

 

Still, though, since I eat such a large volume of fruits and veggies each day I try to avoid overly fibrous sources, opting especially for the softer fibers like sweet potato, fruit, and in moderation some greens. The harsh fibers found in grains and most nuts seem to cause digestive issues probably stemming from intestinal inflammation caused physically by the abrasive insoluble fibers rather than chemically by a particular substance. Gluten does seem to be a problem on its own though.

 

I have a bag of Bobs Red Mill for the RS but haven't been consistent with its use.

 

Lastly, from what I understand dietary sources of Butyrate are no better or worse than the stuff manufactured by our colonal flora. Correct me if I'm mistaken.



#8 Methodician

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:34 PM

I'm open to discussing the deficiencies further, I think I covered the main ones. I also take 250mg extra CDP choline for nootropic purposes.  I know about a quarter of Caucasians have an impaired ability to convert beta-carotene into vitamin A. Wouldnt Cod liver oil be good for that since it contains preformed vitamin A? Generally I actually prefer the supplements because you're not getting the arachidonic acid etc.

 

I'm pretty sure the saturated fat debate is still ongoing and would like to hear others peoples views on it.

 

It's relieving to discuss these things openly with a rational vegan. Most of them I've tried to learn from are zealous ideologist parrots spouting rhetoric and inane claims from outlying "authorities" who obviously profit from their own messages. And yes, the saturated fat debate is ongoing and I don't honestly have a whole lot to contribute to it right now. I'm eager to see what others have to say.

 

The reason I'm wary of supplements is that time and time again they're lined up and shot down by studies showing that they're either ineffective or downright dangerous. Folic acid is a screaming example. This synthetic version of folate proved far more harmful than beneficial. Hence, I get any micronutrients I can from whole food sources and supplement only that which is either not readily available in the modern food supply (large amounts of magnesium for instance) or that has been proven to be beneficial in unnaturally high doses (Vitamin D3 for instance).

 

I don't know much about CDP choline and a cursory wiki didn't satisfy my curiosity. Is it natural or synthetic? Has it been sufficiently studied to know it won't cause harm isolated from natural foods? Where does it come from and how does it compare to whole food dietary sources of choline?

 

I'd be happy to bring up other deficiency concerns as I come across them if you're willing to discuss in this calm rational manner (hopefully making well-thought-out points rather than spamming too many links, no offense I hope). I'm curious about veganism and while I probably won't go 100% vegan, I may let myself slide further in that direction with time, if all the data points in the right direction.


Edited by Methodician, 02 May 2014 - 08:40 PM.


#9 TheFountain

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:38 PM

I eat a modified paleo type diet.

 

Modified how? 

 

Well I basically get most of my meat from low mercury Fish, but some of it from Organic, Free range Chicken and Turkey. And I AVOID red meat. Why? The studies man! The Studies! 

 

I still integrate a lot of vegetables into this diet, as I have with any incarnation of any diet, including way back when I was a vegan. 

 

I am also selective about dairy. I will eat casein only close to bed time (since it is slow digesting) and avoid high fat milk products, and stick to organic and raw cheeses. Which I sometimes modify and sometimes do not.

 

The fruits I stick with on this diet depend on my activity levels. At home, chillin out, blogging, I usually eat Berries and a banana here and there. Before Judo or a work out? Might eat a mango or a apple (I don't eat apples much because they burn my stomach). 

 

Some things come and go from my diet, like Raw Honey. But that is because there is good research and bad research on it. But it isn't a constant for me to consume. 

 

Carb consumption varies from about 75 grams to about 150 grams a day, depending on the activities. 

 

My protein intake is not as much as a pro body builder but not as little as a calorie restricted individual. I aim for a happy medium, to hold on to some muscle without going overboard with Brotein man. 

 

Nuts are usually a part of this diet, because despite the "PUFA" scare, the ones I eat are not that high in PUFA if I can manage to consume smaller quantities and no more than 2 servings a day of any nut. Which sometimes is not possible, but that is why I take a plethora of anti-oxidants and eat a lot of anti-oxidant rich foods, like High phenol olive oil, berries, Broccoli, dark chocolate, etc. 

 

I am convinced all the above do play extended roles in negating the effects of the "bad fats". And even the bad fats have positives to them. 

 

So, what is my justification for this diet?

 

It is probably the best for muscle maintenance and for male fertility. And I quite simply enjoy having a hard dick and the many benefits that come from having a hard dick. 

 

The more you enjoy life (within reason) the more this in itself increases your health outcome. 

 

And I strongly believe sex has a soothing effect on the nervous system, which is severely underrated as per its relation to all health matters. 


Edited by TheFountain, 02 May 2014 - 08:42 PM.


#10 Methodician

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 09:19 PM

I eat a modified paleo type diet.

 

Modified how? 

 

Well I basically get most of my meat from low mercury Fish, but some of it from Organic, Free range Chicken and Turkey. And I AVOID red meat. Why? The studies man! The Studies! 

I think you're on the right track with low mercury fish. I'd like to know your synopsis on just which fish are best... I tend to stick mostly to salmon and sardines with some other small cold-water fish here and there. Chicken and turkey dark meat is a great source of K2 but also a great source of n6... And the white meat is just too rich a muscle protein source for my liking (see above discussion regarding leucine, methionine, and glycine).

 

I may not be privi to all the studies but from what I understand most of the ones showing bad results don't differentiate between highly processed meats (like hot dogs or McDonnald's Hamburgers) and high-quality fatty cuts from grass fed animals. Another thing is that they ALWAYS equate "red meat" with "muscle meat" where as some of the best parts of a ruminant are the organs, fats, and connective tissue. As far as I'm aware, there aren't many (or any) studies focusing on weird people like me who go out of their way to get anything BUT the lean muscle.

 

 

I am also selective about dairy. I will eat casein only close to bed time (since it is slow digesting) and avoid high fat milk products, and stick to organic and raw cheeses. Which I sometimes modify and sometimes do not.

I'm curious, why would you avoid the high fat milk products? Most of my dairy comes from fatty cheeses, whole-milk yogurts and kefir (especially goat kefir), and plain old butter. I do have heavy whipping cream in my coffee or on my fruit at times. Of course the butter and cream in particular must come from pastured ruminants.

 

Carb consumption varies from about 75 grams to about 150 grams a day, depending on the activities. 

 

I was in that range for a while but am recently experimenting with high-carb (and particularly low protein) paleo. I'm getting anywhere from 600-1200 calories from carbs (150-300 grams) this summer. It seems we become more carb tolerant in the summer, in particular. If you like I can try to dig up some articles or studies but they're few and far between for that topic. When you think about it from a "paleo" perspective though it makes perfect intuitive sense.

 

And I strongly believe sex has a soothing effect on the nervous system, which is severely underrated as per its relation to all health matters. 

I believe that frequent sex can be deleterious both mentally and physically. Daily masturbation is particularly silly. However, I suspect abstinence could represent a significant stressor. I typically engage in coitus 1-2 times per week but wonder if I might be better off doing it less. Quite the sacrifice in the name of longevity and cognitive acuity.

 

It makes some sense that an animal going long periods without reproductive success might live a little longer to seek out the opportunity. Somewhere I recently read/heard that women who bear a child later in life (I think the magic number was past 40) live longer. Could be countless confounding variables though and I'm not aware of a specific study.

 

If you have some studies to link, I'd appreciate the read.


Edited by Methodician, 02 May 2014 - 09:21 PM.


#11 TheFountain

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:38 PM


 

“I think you're on the right track with low mercury fish. I'd like to know your synopsis on just which fish are best…”

 

Like you I eat a lot few sardines a week and lately I have been eating a LOT of tilapia. Some frown upon this because they say farmed Tilapia is bad, but I think it is a net positive to include a couple days a week to the diet. Plus very low in pretty much every toxin, and a great, fresh source of sea protein. 

 

“Chicken and turkey dark meat is a great source of K2 but also a great source of n6…”

 

Two words. 

 

Lean cuts. 

 

“And the white meat is just too rich a muscle protein source for my liking (see above discussion regarding leucine, methionine, and glycine).”

 

I am aware of the association between meat consumption and Methionine, but you would be surprised at how many non-meat foods are higher in Methnionine. It’s a trade off situation. You have to live, you have to perform, and then you can possibly cycle things down the road. Same applies to arachidonic acid. We need it to grow and perform, but not an insane amount of it. Happy mediums. 

 

“I’m curious, why would you avoid the high fat milk products?”

 

It’s mainly milk itself. The only kind I can stomach is Skim Milk or 1% milk fat. Full fat milk has a negative reaction in me, but I can tolerate full fat raw cheese. I think maybe it has to do with the sugars in the milk and how they combine to the protein structure. Not sure. Plus greek yogurt and kefir tend to be non fat or low fat. Which increase their protein content. These two I can tolerate fairly well. 

 

“I do have heavy whipping cream in my coffee or on my fruit at times. Of course the butter and cream in particular must come from pastured ruminants.”

 

And how much fat would you say you consume from these food sources?

 

“I was in that range for a while but am recently experimenting with high-carb (and particularly low protein) paleo.”

 

^^ this seems like an oxymoron to me. The whole point of paleo is low carb, medium/high protein and higher fat. The macro composition makes paleo what it is. Deviate from that composition and it isn’t really paleo anymore. 

 

“I typically engage in coitus 1-2 times per week but wonder if I might be better off doing it less.”

 

I do not think there is any evidence that consciously abstaining from sex or ejaculation helps any health markers at all, and ample evidence that there is a net positive with sexual activity. There are plenty of epidemiological studies proving a positive correlation. 

 

The only time I can see it as any sort of problem is if you have pre-existing disease from an entirely different cause. 

 

“ Somewhere I recently read/heard that women who bear a child later in life (I think the magic number was past 40) live longer. Could be countless confounding variables though and I'm not aware of a specific study.”

 

I would guess that this is because they spend less of their youth in a stressed out state. People who have children at fairly young ages spend an abundance of their time in a totally distracted, zoned out, caffeinated and stressed up state of being. No time to focus on health or anything. 

 

“If you have some studies to link, I'd appreciate the read.”

 

I remember reading an epidemiology report a couple years ago, but cannot find it right now. One of the studies show that having sex more than twice a week showed a marked inversion of several disease factors. I am sure this applies to self ejaculation too.

 

I mean think about it, it soothes the nervous system. And anything that soothes the nervous system has a net positive effect on the body as a whole.


^^^ What the fuck, I put quotations and question marks show up? 


Edited by TheFountain, 02 May 2014 - 10:38 PM.


#12 Methodician

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:35 PM

Two words. 

 

Lean cuts. 

 

I go out of my way to avoid lean cuts but then I don't go downing EVOO and coconut oil by the ounce either.

 

 

It’s mainly milk itself. The only kind I can stomach is Skim Milk or 1% milk fat. Full fat milk has a negative reaction in me, but I can tolerate full fat raw cheese. I think maybe it has to do with the sugars in the milk and how they combine to the protein structure. Not sure. Plus greek yogurt and kefir tend to be non fat or low fat. Which increase their protein content. These two I can tolerate fairly well. 

That's interesting. I find that I don't respond well to plain milk but it's been years (even before Paleo) that I had much skim milk. I always preferred the whole milk...

 

I also buy all my yogurt full fat, and my goat kefir is a rare full-fat kefir. It's ridiculously hard to find full-fat kefir under mainstream brand names because it's a "health food" and "fat is not healthy"...

 

 

 

“I do have heavy whipping cream in my coffee or on my fruit at times. Of course the butter and cream in particular must come from pastured ruminants.”

 

 

 

 

And how much fat would you say you consume from these food sources?

I did some quick math from my food tracking and I'd say that over the past three months, from sources including heavy cream, ice cream, cream cheese, and sour cream, I probably get about 150-170 grams per month of non-butter dairy fat. That's about 40-50 grams per week or an average of under 6 grams per day. Of course, that goes up quite a bit if you include pastured butter and I may have omitted some other dairy fat sources.

 

 

“I was in that range for a while but am recently experimenting with high-carb (and particularly low protein) paleo.”

 

 

^^ this seems like an oxymoron to me. The whole point of paleo is low carb, medium/high protein and higher fat. The macro composition makes paleo what it is. Deviate from that composition and it isn’t really paleo anymore. 

I completely disagree. Paleo isn't all about macro ratios, though there's something to be said for tweaking them for various goals. There's been a lot of change in the paleosphere of late. Do you ever follow the forum www.paleohacks.com? Do you look into the recent research on prehistoric and paleolithic peoples? While my version of modified paleo pretty much disregards the question "Did paleolithic man eat this food?" I consider the original macro ratios espoused by paleo bigheads to be pretty gross generalizations and possibly completely wrong. For one, prehistoric peoples in different cultures/tribes/geographies ate widely varying diets, many of them based primarily on roots and tubers. Dietary flexibility is one thing that helped humans excel and spread around the world. We're natural cockroaches. The perfect swarm of hungry, digestively flexible, clever, hairless, creative, walking, driving, flying apes. God help mother earth.

 

Before I step off my uninviting soap box let me just say: I'm looking for the diet that results in the optimal mix of healthspan, lifespan, and daily performance. And the one that lets me "feel good" more often than not. I do take a lot from paleo though, such as including nutrient dense animal foods in my diet on a daily basis and eating plenty of fat, veggies, and fruit.

 

 

 

I would guess that this is because they spend less of their youth in a stressed out state. People who have children at fairly young ages spend an abundance of their time in a totally distracted, zoned out, caffeinated and stressed up state of being. No time to focus on health or anything. 

^^This is a very good point.



#13 serp777

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:48 AM

Jared said that the subway diet was good :-D



#14 TheFountain

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 08:02 AM

Since I made some of these proclamations I have done some retrospective dabbling in the fact that most studies on red meat out there seem to be biased toward processed types of meat, so as an experiment I very recently started including red meat into my diet, and cut my carb consumption down, which I believe I will further modify by doing a carb feed once a week, where I eat pretty much nothing but high carb foods (just a consideration at this time). The other option is just eating more potatoes and fruit. 


And I emphasize the only red meat I am including is very minimally processed kinds. 



#15 aza

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 01:24 PM

Interesting topic. I generally eat with a focus on what hunter gatherers ate, plus any more recent foods that i am convinced are good for me.

So generally the focus is on tubers, veggies, mushrooms, fruit and meat (not lean). However i also eat chocolate, spirulina, yogurt and natto, with some lentils and quinoa on occasion. I am not sold on the health benefits of grains, but i think they are probably fine sprouted.

 

When i bulk or maintain i eat 40-80g of sprouted oats. Mainly for the beta glucans and small amount of tocotrienols, but also i just love porridge.

I also plan to add a teaspoon of sustainable red palm oil and a spoonful or so of annatto seeds for extra tocotrienols.

 

I boil and cool tubers to increase their resistant starch content.

Omega 6 is capped at 4% of my diet, while saturated fat is 15-20%.

Protein is set to what i need to build muscle optimally, which from what i can tell is around 130ish. If i exceed this amount, i reduce my red meat intake. Which tends to be 90g a day, 4 days a week. With the rest being seafood or chicken. I would probably eat more, but currently im cutting, and oysters meet my nutritional needs on my off days with a lower amount of calories.

I match carbohydrate content with my exercise intensity, which is around 200g-ish (without fibre), 150g on off days. since i cap carb intake here I normally eat highish fat.

 

I think olive, macadamia, coconut and avocado oil are the best for cooking, I avoid high omega 6 oils. I also use pastured animal fats only for non cooking uses because of the potential to create oxysterols.

Suppliment wise i take raw garlic, ashwagandha, brahmi and boron. Perhaps K2 if i run out of natto.

 

As an example of my diet, for dinner i ate half a steak, 100g of mushrooms, an onion, a cup of spinach, 3 eggs and a stalk of broccoli. With salt, pepper, sesame seeds and turmeric.


Edited by aza, 10 December 2015 - 01:25 PM.


#16 kurdishfella

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Posted 18 November 2023 - 07:37 PM

Anything that tastes good. People are obsessed with staying away from sugar or carbs but yet their health is not improving. imo it has nothing to do with excess carbs or sugar but lack of nutrients to balance it out.
i eat whatever i want even the worst chemical produced foods. the reason my body can handle it and not produce ill effects is because i take supplements like vitamin c and zinc carnosine as they are vital nutrients for gut health. so i can get away with eating anything and still be pretty healthy. could i be healthier? sure. but life is about living and since you only live once you should make as much as you can out of it. drugs are worse than any kind of food. they are all technically poisons.
Humans also need much more nutrients than before because of how society is and nature.

Edited by kurdishfella, 18 November 2023 - 07:42 PM.






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