13 replies to this topic

[misterE]

I was so amazed by this discovery that I just had to make a post about it. One of my favorite points of research is with insulin. And when insulin is low, the body releases free-fatty-acids (FFAs) into the bloodstream, which travels inside the organs and cells of the body to be used as energy (a process called lipolysis). The composition of these fats (saturated, monounsaturated, or polyunsaturated) has different effects on organs. For instance, when saturated FFAs (SFFAs) accumulate in cells (intracellular lipid) it produces a toxic reaction and induces insulin-resistance in that part of the body, it seems to be unable to properly oxidize SFFAs and the body must undergo a desaturation process called delta-9-desaturase, which converts saturated-fats into monounsaturated-fats, which are oxidized with ease and without problem. Saturated-fats are very attracted to adipocytes and it seems to me that that is where they belong, when saturated-fats are stored within the adipocyte, they are harmless and cannot induce metabolic dysfunction. Insulin is needed to not only store saturated-fats inside the adipocyte, but also to stimulate delta-9-desaturase within the adipocytes as well. However without insulin signaling in the adipocyte or with insulin-resistance within the adipocyte, these processes don't happen and out comes the saturated-fats which are so hard to oxidize. Basically these saturated-fats are liberated before having a chance to be converted into monounsaturated-fats, which the body burns with ease.

 

 On the flipside polyunsaturated-fats are oxidized before monounsaturated-fats and the oxidation of these fats doesn't contribute to insulin-resistance (althou it can lead to an inflammatory prostaglandin cascade, but that is another story). The body has no problem at all oxidizing these fats, and the accumulation of them isn't prominent like SFFAs are because of their high oxidation rate. In other words they don't contribute to lipotoxicity as much as SFFAs.

 

 But what I found really interesting is while it seems that polyunsaturated FFAs (PFFAs) are preferable and better for the body to burn than SFFAs because they do not induce insulin-resistance within the organs that are oxidizing them, I found that the  ratio between the two, affects the amount of insulin the pancreas produces. I read some studies [1-2] where scientists artificially altered the type of FFAs in the blood of rats. One group of rats were made to have high levels of PFFAs and the other group was made to have high levels of SFFAs. The rats were then given glucose and they found that the body produced very little insulin in response to that glucose when their FFAs were mostly polyunsaturated and that the insulin response was much greater when the FFAs were mostly saturated.

Of course insulin is needed to not only inhibit lipolysis and stimulate delta-9-desaturase, but to prevent full-blown diabetes as well, so what does that tell us about polyunsaturated-fats? What are the implications of this knowledge? Since diabetes is characterized by impaired insulin-sensitivity combined with impaired glucose-stimulated insulin-secretion, would this not suggest that polyunsaturated-fats contribute to diabetes?

 

The human body contains a mixture of all three types of fats (saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated), however the amount of polyunsaturated-fat in the human body has increased substantially since the early 1900s as the amount of this fat has increased in the diet since then. Since the ratio of saturated to polyunsaturated fat in the human body has increased, perhaps that would indicate that the release of PFFAs during lipolysis would impair insulin-secretion and contribute to diabetes. And that having a high ratio of SFFAs to PFFAs would produce more insulin-secretion which would prevent diabetes. Perhaps this is why milk, which contains a high ratio of saturated-fat to polyunsaturated-fat is one of the most insulinogenic foods known to man (besides the humble potato).

It seems to me that since SFFAs are so hard and toxic to oxidize, the pancreas secretes lots of insulin to ensure that these SFFAs will make it back inside the adipocyte where they belong.

 

I wanted to get some input on this and ask y'all if I'm interpreting these results correctly.

 

 

 

[1] J Clin Invest. 1997 Jul 15;100(2):398-403. The insulinotropic potency of fatty acids is influenced profoundly by their chain length and degree of saturation. Stein DT, Stevenson BE, Chester MW.

 

[2] Diabetes. 2002 Jun;51(6):1825-33. The composition of dietary fat directly influences glucose-stimulated insulin secretion in rats. Dobbins RL, Szczepaniak LS, Myhill J.

 

 

 

 

Edited by misterE, 09 May 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[Dolph]

"Perhaps this is why milk, which contains a high ratio of saturated-fat to polyunsaturated-fat is one of the most insulinogenic foods known to man (besides the humble potato)."

If I remember correctly skim milk is even more so insulinogenic than whole milk. Whey-protein and casein are very insulinogenic, too. And that makes somewhat sense, cause the purpose of milk is to accelerate tissue accumulation in the new born human/animal. 

[misterE]

"Perhaps this is why milk, which contains a high ratio of saturated-fat to polyunsaturated-fat is one of the most insulinogenic foods known to man (besides the humble potato)."

If I remember correctly skim milk is even more so insulinogenic than whole milk. Whey-protein and casein are very insulinogenic, too. And that makes somewhat sense, cause the purpose of milk is to accelerate tissue accumulation in the new born human/animal. 

 

 

Yes, milk is insulinogenic in numerous ways; the glucose and protein like you mentioned. Since whey-protein and casein stimulate insulin, that is why they seem to benefit diabetes and hypertension so much. However excess insulinogenic stimulation promotes preexisting cancer. Its a double edge sword.
 

[Dolph]

Cancer risk is increased in type 2 diabetes. However it's a matter of debate if this is caused by hyperinsulenemia or insulin resistance. The most obvious link is obesity. I wouldn't develop cancer fears because of eating potatoes or bananas.

[misterE]

Cancer risk is increased in type 2 diabetes. However it's a matter of debate if this is caused by hyperinsulenemia or insulin resistance. The most obvious link is obesity. I wouldn't develop cancer fears because of eating potatoes or bananas.

 

I think that the inflammation secreted from dysfunctional adipocytes contributes to cancer, along with leptin and insulin. However there is a lot of data showing that prostate-cancer for instance (the most common type of cancer in men) is reduced in diabetics. I guess this would be due to a lack of anabolic hormones, like IGF-1 and androgens in diabetics.

Edited by misterE, 09 May 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[Dolph]

???

Type 2 diabetics (90% of all diabetics) are hyperinsulinemic and have much more IGF-1 than nondiabetics. 

Edited by Dolph, 09 May 2014 - 06:50 PM.

[misterE]

???

Type 2 diabetics (90% of all diabetics) are hyperinsulinemic and have much more IGF-1 than nondiabetics. 

 

Type-2 diabetes results in damage to the pancreas and reduced insulin secretion. Severe diabetes results in complete insulin deficiency. Diabetics actually have really high GH and low IGF-1. Plus most of the IGF-1 in type-2 diabetics is ineffective because it is not bound to the plasma proteins and therefor IGF-1 transport is reduced or hindered.

Edited by misterE, 09 May 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Dolph]

 

 

 

Type-2 diabetes results in damage to the pancreas and reduced insulin secretion.

 

 

In the LATEST stage of the disease! The vast majority of type 2 diabetics has VERY HIGH insulin levels. That's a fact.

[misterE]

 

 

In the LATEST stage of the disease! The vast majority of type 2 diabetics has VERY HIGH insulin levels. That's a fact.

 

 

Yes, but the reason why the pancreas is secreting so much insulin, is because the insulin is becoming less and less effective or less and less potent. Hyperinsulinemia is considered a protective adaption by the body to try and fend off diabetes.

Edited by misterE, 09 May 2014 - 07:19 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

Type 2 is not just a single type.  The pancreas can produce too much insulin in response to insulin resistance, or it can function normally while the liver converts too much non-carbohydrates into glucose, or the pancreatic alpha cells could be deranged and increase blood glucose or not oppose insulin, etc..

 

[HaloTeK]

misterE, seems from what you are saying is that monounsaturated fats are probably the safest of fats to consume "if" you consume any fat.  They burn easier and have a lot less of the disadvantages of saturated or polyunsaturated fats.  That is what the majority of people looking to live longer think as well.  They just disagree with your assumption that you need to get fats down to the 15% level.  I'm pretty sure fat levels upwards to 25% are probably ok if the majority of them are mono and you keep your weight at a healthy level.

[misterE]

misterE, seems from what you are saying is that monounsaturated fats are probably the safest of fats to consume "if" you consume any fat.  They burn easier and have a lot less of the disadvantages of saturated or polyunsaturated fats.  That is what the majority of people looking to live longer think as well.  They just disagree with your assumption that you need to get fats down to the 15% level.  I'm pretty sure fat levels upwards to 25% are probably ok if the majority of them are mono and you keep your weight at a healthy level.

 

Perhaps. The body has a hard time burning saturated-fatty-acids and the body must convert them into monounsaturated-fats preferably first. The liberation of fatty-acids into the blood depends on their degree of saturation. So the adipocytes retain saturated-fats and releases polyunsaturated-fats first, then mono, then saturated-fats. The release of fatty-acids from the adipocytes blocks the uptake of glucose and insulin, causing insulin-resistance and glucose intolerance, however if the free-fatty-acids (FFAs) being release are saturated, they will stimulate the beta-cells of the pancreas to secrete insulin, helping overcome the temporary insulin-resistant effects of the FFAs... polyunsaturated-fats don't stimulate the secretion of insulin and monounsaturated-fats do have a stimulatory effect, but it is less potent than saturated-fats.

 

It seems to me that to ensure optimal insulin-secretion and prevent diabetes, you would want the majority of your stored fatty-acids to be saturated. Of course with the advent of vegetable-oils, the amount of polyunsaturated-fats in the human body has increased substantially since 1900. Perhaps this is contributing to diabetes... Am I the only one who sees this or are there other conclusions to be made?

Edited by misterE, 28 November 2014 - 09:59 PM.

[HaloTeK]

misterE, you have 2 conflicting views in what you are saying.  In your reply you say you want your stored fatty-acids to be saturated, but you say this above:

 

"For instance, when saturated FFAs (SFFAs) accumulate in cells (intracellular lipid) it produces a toxic reaction and induces insulin-resistance in that part of the body, it seems to be unable to properly oxidize SFFAs and the body must undergo a desaturation process called delta-9-desaturase, which converts saturated-fats into monounsaturated-fats, which are oxidized with ease and without problem."

 

I know you don't think saturated fats are good to consume, and even if you said they were ok you'd probably only suggest a 15% level of fat mostly saturated if possible anyway.  What I am saying is because of what happens over 10-15% fat when going to 25-30% fat, we'd want the majority of fats to be monos vs any other type.

[misterE]

misterE, you have 2 conflicting views in what you are saying.  In your reply you say you want your stored fatty-acids to be saturated, but you say this above:

 

"For instance, when saturated FFAs (SFFAs) accumulate in cells (intracellular lipid) it produces a toxic reaction and induces insulin-resistance in that part of the body, it seems to be unable to properly oxidize SFFAs and the body must undergo a desaturation process called delta-9-desaturase, which converts saturated-fats into monounsaturated-fats, which are oxidized with ease and without problem."

 

I know you don't think saturated fats are good to consume, and even if you said they were ok you'd probably only suggest a 15% level of fat mostly saturated if possible anyway.  What I am saying is because of what happens over 10-15% fat when going to 25-30% fat, we'd want the majority of fats to be monos vs any other type.

 

That was in reference to accumulation of saturated-fatty-acids outside of the adipocyte, like what you find with people with diabetes. Insulin is needed to store fatty-acids inside the adipocytes. If you are insulin-resistant and your insulin is not working like it should, you will accumulate fat outside of the adipocytes, inside organs and such... this is called lipotoxicity. Saturated-fats are meant to be inside the adipocytes (where they are harmless...albeit fattening), while the body preferably burns glucose or monounsaturated-fats.