17 replies to this topic

[navyblue]

S-E-L-E-G-I-L-I-N-E

Go get some selegiline boy!

MUCH better than stimulant.

Dopaminergic neuron protection seems to depend on microglia inactivation, so one could also consider other microglia inhibitors, e.g. nobiletin (Sytrinol), luteolin, or EGCG. However, only minocycline and curcumin were tested in parkinson models.

Above posted from: http://www.longecity...952&qpid=558930
 
Lately i had been feeling extremely unmotivated for quite some time. Decided it was time to get my act together as i am currently unemployed. As a result my research has led me back to this site to see if i could figure out where to start again. Last time i was on this site i was using EGCG with great results until of course it pooped out on me. The same with Ashwagandha as well. The initial few days response was great with both of these. However I was looking for something with a little more longevity. That is when I found the thread above. After reading that thread as well as another regarding CILTEP and the how and why it was created, i knew i had a major dopamine problem.
 
As a result of these posts I have so far tried:
1. Shortness of Breath - Artichoke 600mg (by Solaray) (guaranteed 30mg [5%] caffeoylquinic acid and derivatives)
2. Shortness of Breath and Sharp Chest Pain - Turmeric (std. to 95% curcuminoids, 427.5mg) w/ Black Pepper Extract (5mg) (by Plnt - vitamin shoppe's organic brand)
3. Slight Shortness of Breath - Hawthorn 225mg (berry), 100mg(flower, 1.8% vitexin-2'-rhamnoside), (by Solaray)
4. Sharp Chest Pain - 2x Ginkgo 60mg (by Vitamin Shoppe)
 
From what I understand all except the Ginkgo are sources of Luteolin which helps protect dopamine through inhibition of PDE4 and possibly others. All work perfect for my ADD. I would say that the Turmeric and Artichoke worked like Concerta used to for me. I was totally motivated to do the important things that required a great sense of discipline and responsibility. Stopped taking Concerta a long time ago due to sharp chest pain episode I had one night, which was indeed a real scare. However I find that when I take any of the above I still get a shortness of breath which I read is a side-effect of Turmeric. But I also get the shortness of breath with Artichoke as well, and only a little bit with the Hawthorn. The Ginkgo causes a sharp chest pain at 120mg but cold hands and feet at only 40mg or more. I am going to see a doctor to get some things check out. It does seem though that I am experiencing the sharp chest pains with the blood thinners, however i could be wrong for it to be the cause.
 
1. Are there any ties between these 4 supplements such as maybe the PDE4 inhibition that might cause this?
2. Are there any tests you guys recommend i should get?

Edited by cryonicsculture, 06 August 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Luminosity]

Your best bet is to go to a good MD and get diagnosed. 

[navyblue]

In 2009 I had gotten a "Nuclear Stress Test" done. Everything came back fine. The only thing was the doctor said my heart was large by a very miniscule and insignficant amount and that it was of now reason for concern.

 

In 2013 after the issue and sharp pains with Concerta I had a regular stress done, and once again the doctor said everything looked good. She did say that it was possible that since I was taking a "generic" that maybe I had gotten a bad batch. Still I was wayyy too nervous to try it again. 

 

A Google search for "Tumeric shortness of breath" brings up a lot of different websites discussing the issue. I was trying to see if there was some sort of connection between Turmeric and for example Artichoke, Ginkgo, and Hawthorn berries as it seems they all have a similar effect on me.

[navyblue]

Update: actually cannot really say that Hawthorn was an issue as I had taken it fairly close to the Turmeric. The hawthorn actually seems to be helping the issue.

[mrnootropic]

In 2013 after the issue and sharp pains with Concerta I had a regular stress done, and once again the doctor said everything looked good. She did say that it was possible that since I was taking a "generic" that maybe I had gotten a bad batch. Still I was wayyy too nervous to try it again. 

 

A Google search for "Tumeric shortness of breath" brings up a lot of different websites discussing the issue. I was trying to see if there was some sort of connection between Turmeric and for example Artichoke, Ginkgo, and Hawthorn berries as it seems they all have a similar effect on me.

 

Hey,

How can 4 different substances give you Sharp Pains and Shortness of Breath ? 

You first experienced sharp pains with Concerta, now with Ginkgo.

And you are experiencing the Shortness of breath with Hawthorn,Turmeric and Artichoke.

 

Artichoke is a vegatable, how can it give you shortness of breath? Unless you are allergic.

Are you sure its not the tablet you are ingesting that is causing this problem ??

I experience a blockage and sharp pain when i take large capsules and tablets but it goes in like 5-10 mins.

 

When are you experiencing this Shortness of breath and Sharp Pain ? If its as soon as you take the tablets it could be your windpipe getting blocked.

And you could also be allergic to fillers in tablets, such as Titanium Dioxide, Magnesium Stearate or Mannitol. Check your tablets and capsules and see what fillers they contain. 

 

Concerta gives you sharp pains just like Ginkgo ?,

The only reasons for this happening, is that you are Allergic to one of the filler ingredients or your windpipe is getting blocked. Or it is simply a Placebo effect. Or you have a Partially Blocked Windpipe.

 

I cant think of any other reasons for this happening.

Edited by Mr.Nootropic, 16 May 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[navyblue]

Mr. Nootropic thank you for your input. Yes that is a good point as i never considered it could be one of the fillers. If you do a simple Google you will see that shortness of breath is listed as an allergic reaction concerning Turmeric/Curcumin.

 

Also I had already posted that I was wrong regarding the Hawthorn, I believe I had taken it in too close a time frame with the Turmeric.

 

I am just as curious as to why this might be happening. That is why I posted it this forum. Really looking to see what the possible coorelations between them are. Maybe Concerta, Artichoke, Ginkgo and Turmeric all inhibit PDE4 and maybe shortness of breath is a possible side effect. I'm not saying that it is, I am just looking for possible coorelations.

[navyblue]

Also, not like I am wheezing for air or anything like that. It is just that sometimes I cannot get that really deep breath. It has gotten a lot better since I last took the Turmerc on Sunday 5/11/2014. At least now I can sometimes get that deep breath, whereas before right after I took it i wasn't getting it all.

[navyblue]

Just wanted to post an update to close this out. Had just gotten some blood work done which shows very low levels of b12 and vitamin D, not sure if any of that matters but just thought i'd throw that out there. Also after a bit more research and upping the dosage of prilosec, it looks as though my severe heartburn could have played a role in the dyspnea (shortness of breath) i was having, hopefully not leading to any bronchoaspiration. Will keep treating the GERD as it looks as thought that may have been the root cause.

[StevesPetRat]

Are you sure your GERD is due to high stomach acid? I had reflux problems for years until I started taking supplemental betaine HCl with meals. If you have low acid food can sit there too long and cause heartburn.
In fact low b12 is very suggestive of low acid.

[navyblue]

Hey thanks for the reply. To be honest, I'm really not sure if its high or low stomach acid. I would think high because taking Prilosec and a lot of Pepto seems to be helping. I have an upcoming appointment with the gi doctor so i will definitely ask. A few days ago it was really unbearable to the point even my breathing was hindered and I couldn't do much. Even went to the emergency room to make sure it was nothing too serious. Since then it has gotten better. However even with the prilosec and pepto there is still a minute amount of burning, even on an empty stomach. If i take anything that is know to thin the blood such as fish oil, aspirin, and various herbs, it gets much worse. I have been taking prilosec inconsistently for a few years, so maybe that is the cause for low acid. How does the betaine HCl work? Is it more for symptom control or does it also promote healing as well?

Edited by navyblue, 26 June 2014 - 02:33 PM.

[StevesPetRat]

It's definitely more for symptom control. But it can help a lot with nutrient absorption which could in turn accelerate healing.

[StevesPetRat]

Some people try the at-home bicarbonate test. Not 100% reliable but you can read about some of the tests here
http://scdlifestyle....w-stomach-acid/
Unfortunately some GI docs don't think low stomach acid is a problem. I had a doctor friend say "everyone adult should be on a proton pump inhibitor" which, wow, is pretty ignorant.

[Duchykins]

Just want to post here that if you are taking antiacids especially PPIs like prilosec to make double sure you are getting adequate thiamine, folate (avoid folic acid, avoid folate supplements UNLESS you are not getting results with high folate foods because it's very easy to overdo folate with supps), cobalamin (avoid cyano), zinc, D3. Using these commonly hinder absorption of certain nutrients. My husband started having problems on prilosec until I did some reading and started making him take extra methylcobalamin, thiamine and eat spinach and sunflower seeds every day. Energy and mood control came back.

Of course, this doesn't resolve this issue causing you to take antacids in the first place. Make sure your doc sends you for a metabolic panel, thyroid, macro and micronutrient labs. If you have a GP and are still not getting answers, ask for a referral to an endocrinologist to help rule out some things.

Watch your acetylcholine too. All kinds of things can increase ACh in one way or another, like turmeric. A lot of herbs affect cholinesterase or acetylcholine production, they're very complex. I actually think you should back off on all herbs for now because there are so many differrnt compounds in them, the can be a lot scarier than isolated vitamins/minerals and amino acids. All kinds of different foods can have significant choline content. Several of the things you tried can have diuretic effects like the artichoke and imbalance your electrolytes, especially potassium and magnesium. Your symptoms could as be related to imbalances in your ATP, urea and/or citric acid cycles so that could be another thing you should bring up to your doc.

Edited by Duchykins, 26 June 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[Duchykins]

Unfiltered apple cider vinegar might help in the meantime. And maybe something else fermented like horseradish, sauerkraut, or even couple spoonfuls of greek yogurt. Just some ideas for you to read about. (I'm using a tablet and really lazy about opening other tabs and copypasting)

Edited by Duchykins, 26 June 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[navyblue]

Some people try the at-home bicarbonate test. Not 100% reliable but you can read about some of the tests here
http://scdlifestyle....w-stomach-acid/
Unfortunately some GI docs don't think low stomach acid is a problem. I had a doctor friend say "everyone adult should be on a proton pump inhibitor" which, wow, is pretty ignorant.

 

Thanks a ton for the link. Like the fact they had a few different options for testing. This is something I will continue to look into as well as the betaine HCl. I've been on Prilosec since 2006 but off and on, and in 2010 started taking it on a consistent regular basis with some inconsistency, for example when I would run out and miss 2 or 3 days here and there. Definitely got me thinking it may indeed be low stomach acid due to prolonged use of the prilosec. But will try to get some testing done soon. Have to say that in the past i have truly underestimated just how bad acid reflux could get.

[navyblue]

Just want to post here that if you are taking antiacids especially PPIs like prilosec to make double sure you are getting adequate thiamine, folate (avoid folic acid, avoid folate supplements UNLESS you are not getting results with high folate foods because it's very easy to overdo folate with supps), cobalamin (avoid cyano), zinc, D3. Using these commonly hinder absorption of certain nutrients. My husband started having problems on prilosec until I did some reading and started making him take extra methylcobalamin, thiamine and eat spinach and sunflower seeds every day. Energy and mood control came back.

Thank you so much for your reply. I've been taking Prilosec off and on for 8 years, and fairly cosistently the last 4 years. Maybe this might explain the reason why my blood work showed very low vitamin D, and vitamin B12 levels. I also supplement 800mg of magnesium a day otherwise the vitamin D gives me some anxiety without it. When I juice I usually use Kale. Would the spinach be better in this regard? The sunflower seeds I can do, would just need to find some that are not manufactured on equipment that also processes nuts or soy due to allergies. Currently taking this: http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B00024D7RW mainly as its one of the only multi's that I can find that is soy free and providing 50-100mg of B vitamins.
 

Of course, this doesn't resolve this issue causing you to take antacids in the first place. Make sure your doc sends you for a metabolic panel, thyroid, macro and micronutrient labs. If you have a GP and are still not getting answers, ask for a referral to an endocrinologist to help rule out some things.

This sounds like a really good idea. Believe I just had a metabolic panel done, they did so much blood work in the emergency room. I will defintiely pull the records to find out exactly what was done. Thanks for the tip.
 

Watch your acetylcholine too. All kinds of things can increase ACh in one way or another, like turmeric. A lot of herbs affect cholinesterase or acetylcholine production, they're very complex. I actually think you should back off on all herbs for now because there are so many differrnt compounds in them, the can be a lot scarier than isolated vitamins/minerals and amino acids. All kinds of different foods can have significant choline content. Several of the things you tried can have diuretic effects like the artichoke and imbalance your electrolytes, especially potassium and magnesium. Your symptoms could as be related to imbalances in your ATP, urea and/or citric acid cycles so that could be another thing you should bring up to your doc.

Is acetylcholine really that bad for this type of condition? About 2 months ago had started taking Acetyl-L-Carnitine 500mg 1-3x/day for memory, focus, and energy, and from what I understand ALC boosts acetylcholine. Even the rooibos tea I was drinking seemed like it was starting to cause issue so like you said i will definitely back off of the various herb and herb combinations. I had tried these different things in an attempt to get more luteolin in my diet as it help a lot with focus and energy. Not sure about the citric acid cycle or what it does but I do know I am allergic to anything with citric acid in it.

[navyblue]

Unfiltered apple cider vinegar might help in the meantime. And maybe something else fermented like horseradish, sauerkraut, or even couple spoonfuls of greek yogurt. Just some ideas for you to read about. (I'm using a tablet and really lazy about opening other tabs and copypasting)

 

This sounds like a good idea. Tried the ACV before and it didn't go over too well as I go a sore throat from it. Also allergic to the casein protein in dairy, but the hoseradish and sauerkraut seem like good options. Are purley liquid versions of these available?. If not I guess I could just take a spoonful of it as well.

[Duchykins]

Just want to post here that if you are taking antiacids especially PPIs like prilosec to make double sure you are getting adequate thiamine, folate (avoid folic acid, avoid folate supplements UNLESS you are not getting results with high folate foods because it's very easy to overdo folate with supps), cobalamin (avoid cyano), zinc, D3. Using these commonly hinder absorption of certain nutrients. My husband started having problems on prilosec until I did some reading and started making him take extra methylcobalamin, thiamine and eat spinach and sunflower seeds every day. Energy and mood control came back.

Thank you so much for your reply. I've been taking Prilosec off and on for 8 years, and fairly cosistently the last 4 years. Maybe this might explain the reason why my blood work showed very low vitamin D, and vitamin B12 levels. I also supplement 800mg of magnesium a day otherwise the vitamin D gives me some anxiety without it. When I juice I usually use Kale. Would the spinach be better in this regard? The sunflower seeds I can do, would just need to find some that are not manufactured on equipment that also processes nuts or soy due to allergies. Currently taking this: http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B00024D7RW mainly as its one of the only multi's that I can find that is soy free and providing 50-100mg of B vitamins.
 

Of course, this doesn't resolve this issue causing you to take antacids in the first place. Make sure your doc sends you for a metabolic panel, thyroid, macro and micronutrient labs. If you have a GP and are still not getting answers, ask for a referral to an endocrinologist to help rule out some things.

This sounds like a really good idea. Believe I just had a metabolic panel done, they did so much blood work in the emergency room. I will defintiely pull the records to find out exactly what was done. Thanks for the tip.
 

Watch your acetylcholine too. All kinds of things can increase ACh in one way or another, like turmeric. A lot of herbs affect cholinesterase or acetylcholine production, they're very complex. I actually think you should back off on all herbs for now because there are so many differrnt compounds in them, the can be a lot scarier than isolated vitamins/minerals and amino acids. All kinds of different foods can have significant choline content. Several of the things you tried can have diuretic effects like the artichoke and imbalance your electrolytes, especially potassium and magnesium. Your symptoms could as be related to imbalances in your ATP, urea and/or citric acid cycles so that could be another thing you should bring up to your doc.

Is acetylcholine really that bad for this type of condition? About 2 months ago had started taking Acetyl-L-Carnitine 500mg 1-3x/day for memory, focus, and energy, and from what I understand ALC boosts acetylcholine. Even the rooibos tea I was drinking seemed like it was starting to cause issue so like you said i will definitely back off of the various herb and herb combinations. I had tried these different things in an attempt to get more luteolin in my diet as it help a lot with focus and energy. Not sure about the citric acid cycle or what it does but I do know I am allergic to anything with citric acid in it.

You don't have to eat the sunflower seeds, I just make him eat them because he whines about taking pills, but he needs the zinc. You could just go for zinc tabs/caps/powder. As for spinach over kale, this is merely a personal preference. Spinach tastes infinitely better without needing to do anything fancy with it, it's more versatile, it's cheaper, and I already have fresh spinach in the house because I eat about two handfuls a day primarily for folate, K, and potassium. I don't think one is better than the other though, if you look at them, you'll see that their nutrient profiles are actually quite different. Spinach just happens to be better suited for my purposes; if you look up the folate content in kale, you'll see it's negligible.


I mentioned ACh because I had breathing troubles with ACh, and I wasn't using nearly as much as the average person around here. Nighttime doses of bacopa gave me symptoms of sleep apnea, but got better when I quit, half capsules of citicoline made me breathe slow and shallow during the day, same with just 1/4 tsp lecithin granules, 10mg coluracetam (5mg and under is okay), even quinoa had me making an effort to draw a full breath to my gut (as opposed to my chest), that is a food that is high in choline. One night it got scary enough that I took an extra dose of bupropion, which was the only thing in the house I knew for sure was anticholinergic, and I was able to go back to sleep after an hour. I've never had use for choline with racetams, in fact a few times when I had these episodes I would breathe faster, easier with 30-50mg of phenylpiracetam.

If there's liquid horseradish and sauerkraut I haven't seen it yet, and I would do the same thing, just down a spoonful if I was too lazy to make some rice, just like I do with my veggies, even eating raw garlic clove or pearl onion if I didn't feel like cooking anything