17 replies to this topic

[Charles J. Daniels]

I take a lot of supplements, and am always trying something new. Today I had two reactions that I thought someone might have an explanation for.

 

1) I starting seeing these lights in my upperleft peripheral vision. They were like, chevron patterns, in motion like conveyer belts, almost like I'd looked at the sun too long. I've seen these in my life before, but the last time would have been forever ago, maybe back in my druggie days. They were not uncomfortable, though I suppose they could be a bit distracting because they're interesting and slightly obscure your vision, though peripherally.

 

2) Within about an hour of that I had eye aches behind each eye -- something I had a couple weeks ago, which I thought was caused by a gram of choline bitartrate. It was a very minor issue that by now is gone, but I always try to listen to my body so I don't want to just pass it off.

 

So I've taken a couple rounds of supps today, in the morning around 10a, pre-workout around 12:30p, after a couple times since my workout, post 3pm. These events happened rather close together, post-workout. I'm just gonna list the likely culprits first, (due to newness or usual suspect characteristics) followed by some other things that are less innocuous than multi-vit ingredients

 

PEA upon waking (500mg)

methylene blue (120mcgs morning and postworkout)

Tribulis (250mg upon waking)

LongJak

resveratrol (250mg post workout)

aniracetam (1g, post workout)

 

I'm not sure if the MB came before or after the chevrons, but I'm fairly certain is was before the eye aches, and I kinda of think i wouldn't have gotten those without it. This wiki page says 3 of those things I listed up there are RIMAs: http://en.wikipedia....amine_oxidase_A

 

PEA is pretty quick acting, but I don't think you're supposed to generally take MAOIs with it, even if some people do on purpose. I would think the 5-7 hours would be enough. Though I'm guessing by the time I took my second dose of MB, I may have only been through about a single half life, so maybe "180mcg" equivalent at that dosing.

 

I took other things this day (many other things) but all things I've been taking awhile now with no issue. The newest things I took today would be the tribulis, the resveratrol, and the PEA.

 

I know eye aches are a common and general enough issue that it can be hard to know what the cause was, but those visual effects are so damn specific, you don't just mix random ingredients in a bowl and pull about a lemon custard -- I'd be really curious to know what caused that. Mind you, it was post workout. I did fasted training, and am on the leangains diet, with involves intermittent fasting, so I do suspect my hormonal state is somewhat unique in the hours following my workout.

 

If anyone wants to give a stab at causation, let me know if you want more specifics about the other things I've taken or eaten. By looking at my food log I see where I ate a grapefruit post workout -- I know those fruits have effects on the clearance of certain substances. Everything else is fairly standard, plus 100g protein. And you know, I had a cherry coke zero like 15min prior to the visuals.

 

happy conjecturing =)

--charlie

 

[Gerrans]

I suffer from migraines--and the pattern sounds similar: ocular disruptions, followed a bit later by headaches. The intensity varies--sometimes the effect is not strong, and sometimes the headaches do not follow. Another time you just want to die. All the migraines I have had in the last few years seemed connected with supplement experiments, and I have come to the conclusion that pro-nitric-oxide supplements are in my case to blame. Turns out some people are nitric-oxide-sensitive, which could be the case for me. So it might be worth checking which of your supplements increase nitric oxide. From what I have read, nitric oxide stimulates dilation. The effect you describe may result from a dilation of blood vessels in the brain, followed by a later constriction. If you have that visual effect again, I suggest a prompt dose of two aspirin-caffeine-paracetemol pills, which may avert the impending headache.

 

I do not know all the suspects you mention above; but I have had headaches from tribulus, which I believe is a pro-nitric-oxide supplement. LongJak sounds like it might be an aphrodisiac. Aphrodisiacs often work by dilating blood vessels.

 

I may be wrong, though, in seeing your case as having similarities to my migraine symptoms. Just my five pence worth.

Edited by Gerrans, 20 May 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[pro-v]

I'm going to venture a guess that you are hallucinating from taking an MAOI inhibitor and PEA. Check your blood pressure and lay off the MB

[Charles J. Daniels]

What you say Gerrans sounds like a good avenue to explore. I take a lot of dilators, including ginkgo, vinpocetin, eleuthro I think does it took especially when mixed with the ginkgo. I don't take anything specifically intended to affect NO, but no doubt I do take such stuff. When you say "take two aspirin-caffeine-paracetemol pills" are those a list of options, or are those the  3 ingredients in the two pills? I'm thinking it's like excedrin that you mean.

 

I'll keep what pro-v says in mind too, but I took the PEA in the morning and it has such a short half life I just wouldn't think that was it.

 

It was all very minor (and only the eye aches bugged at all) and I'm curious to know what it was so I'm gonna see if I can repeat it. I won't try to hard, but at a minimum it'll rule out some causes, and pay more attention to the things I take, maybe keep a log of supps, which i never do

 

For the first time in forever I've taken no supplements today, for non-related reasons, so I have a clean slate to start from. Just now I took:

 

120mg ginkgo

860mg siberian eleuthro root

around 1g of aniracetam

250mg trans-resveratrol

around 180mcg of MB

 

And to top it off I'm about to go get a big coke, which would be like the coke-zero I had yesterday just before the show started. Notice I didn't take PEA, and that's pretty much on purpose, since I tend to think that was out of my system. But I suppose it could have left lingering systemic affects that lived on after its clearance. I know it's a decent culprit to all this stuff to, as pro-v mentioned.

 

[sambensly]

Sounds like you had a PVD posterior vitreous detachment, not a nootropic enduced light show.

[Charles J. Daniels]

the description on the following wiki page doesn't sound like what I experienced: http://en.wikipedia....eous_detachment

 

I'm younger than usual for that type of thing, but I am near sighted (though less than 6 diopters, around 4.5)

 

the thing is, there were no flashes or floaters, also no circles -- coveyer belt chevrons really does it for me :-p

 

And it was different from what would happen by staring in the sun in that, not only was it a peripheral change, but sun image after effects are like static blobs, and these things were very mobile.

[Gerrans]

When you say "take two aspirin-caffeine-paracetemol pills" are those a list of options, or are those the  3 ingredients in the two pills? I'm thinking it's like excedrin that you mean.

 

*

the thing is, there were no flashes or floaters, also no circles -- coveyer belt chevrons really does it for me :-p

Yes, I mean a triple-ingredient pill; I take Anadin Extra--but there are other brands. I have read a lot of the migraine research, and this formula has some backing. Previously I had tried all sorts of expensive migraine formulas, but for me this simple, cheap pill can reduce or prevent the headache that, in my case, follows the visual stuff about an hour later. This is also my go-to pill for headaches--it has been shown to work well with cluster headaches, etc. (It is something to do with the synergy between the caffeine and the other two.)

 

*

 

By the way, I have had those chevrons many times. I think they may arise from the effect of waves of blood vessel dilation passing through the visual cortex of the brain, from what I have read, causing an ocular "scintillating scotoma", as it is called.

 

I have not found it possible to induce these effects on demand, though sometimes they have come in pairs, pointing to a certain supplement. One thing that may induce them, I suspect, is the belated, sudden breaking of a capsule at a certain point in the digestion, which may release an overwhelming shot of a substance into the bloodstream. I am just guessing there, because I remember once having a sudden hot feeling in my gut combined with a brief spasm of visual chaos, which I am sure must have been caused by a cayenne pepper capsule breaking. The heat gave that one away, but sudden offload could surreptitiously happen with any capsule, I think.

 

Edited by Gerrans, 21 May 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

I didn't run into any issues after taking that stuff. If I'm gonna keep taking the stuff I've been taking though, I should really keep a supp journal.

 

The more you talk about that stuff Gerrans the more it sounds about right. When I look at images on images.google.com of scintillating scotoma, it's way closer than, say, the descriptions of vitreous  detachment on the wikipedia page. All those images have triangular shapes on that image page for scintillating scotoma! And the eye aches did occur within about an hour of the conveyer belt chevrons. We may have a winner here.

 

I have no history of migraines, and I always comment on how I've had like, 3 headaches in my entire life. But I do take a lot of dilators and blood thinning supps, so I wouldn't be too surprised to encounter issues due to vessel dilation change and or throughput.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Seriously, that just has to be what it was: scintillating scotoma. I mean, look at this pic: http://i1.ytimg.com/...A/hqdefault.jpg

 

It's in the same upper left location and has the angularness. And "scintillating" certainly captures the quite vivid mobileness of the effect.

 

 

[Gerrans]

I didn't get my first migraine till I was over 40. I am not normally prone to headaches either, but messing with supplements--particularly herbals--has taught me a few lessons. Ashwagandha, schisandra, tribulus, and pregnenolone all gave me migraines with aura, I am pretty sure. These days, fortunately, I seem to get the visual stuff--sometimes not the full aurora borealis--without the headache. I like to think this is because of taking the Anadin promptly--but perhaps I am growing out of the headache side of migraines. The worst migraine headache I had lasted a week, so I am wary. I still cannot resist trying out new herbs, though (idiot).

 

It is good to know how this works, because it takes the fear out of it. A lot of people call the doctors when they have their first scotoma, thinking they must have a tumour or something. For me, now, it has become routine.

Edited by Gerrans, 21 May 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

I was just reading that resveratrol both increases nitric oxide and thins blood, that it regularly induces migraines in some people. It is also a relatively new part of my supplements, having last taken it about a year ago, but then only 2/5ths as much and with totally other stuff. It could be one of the keys to my event, though I've taken it on quite a few days now without issue, so something else with it would be required. It did happen post workout, so either my hormonal state or my post workout routine/supps could contain the other necessary parts.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Well I just had scintillating scotoma again. Strong enough to make it challenging to finish up my computer work. But this time no headache, not mostly during at all anyway, towards the very end as the visuals were almost fully gone I got a short-lived ever so very slight dullish something, but almost not there at all.

So this brings back up my quest to figure out what caused it. I'm just very curious.

 

I re-read some of my stuff above, and I haven't taken anything on my initial list from post #1: http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=663591

But I do see two things that are similar: 1) I had something caffeinated not long before it came up. Coffee, my first of a pretty regular 2 cups a day habit. And also, I spoke about my leangains state and a new diet, and my diet has again changed recently, by returning full force to some of my healthiest habits after a nice and short period of including sinful foods like soda -- when the sinful things left, I got rid of the "boderline" things like wheat too. Also, I've taken a lot of things that affect the blood no doubt, but I do this on a regular basis. I've been working out regularly, my weight is around it's lowest it's been, though not yet at goal, and today I was feeling kinda that not hungry but your body is working without kinda feeling (I haven't been counting calories).

Here are supps I've taken today, * means somewhat fairly recent addition with any following number the days ago I added it, and @ means regularly for several weeks or more, and  + is between those two and/or intermittent

5-htp*3

choline bitartrate*~14

l-theanine*~7

ALCAR+

noopept*~10

beta-alanine*

great tea (not supp/extract)@

american ginseng@

astragalus@

garlic pill@

pomegranate extract@

eleuthero root@

gingko biloba@

B-complex@

zinc+

d3*

d2@

lycopene@

lutein+

alpha lipoic acid*

theracurmin (curcumin)@

[Charles J. Daniels]

I had two more flare ups, right after my last post. There was a good 20min between flare ups. Here's what I had:

1) protein powder shake with 5g creatine and ~2g TMG

2) A gulp of coconut oil, and 100mg CoQ10

 

The first flare up was seconds before taking the CoQ10, so I discount that. For all I know it was just the hydration from the cup of water in the protein shake.

The second flare up was about 20min after the first one, about as long after everything was swallowed, while I was just sitting there watching news in Spanish.

 

These quick after shocks certainly seem to offer valuable hints, but I don't see any obvious culprits.

Edited by Charles J. Daniels, 22 October 2014 - 03:49 AM.

[Charles J. Daniels]

I have a suspect in mind. I did not get the effect today, but I had it on my mind for some reason, subconsciously suspicious ahead of time, and then I started to get this feeling in my head like I was headed in that direction. My suspected culprits: beta-alanine and the caffeine in my coffee.

 

Now, the first time I brought this up in May, it was post workout, and I had taken beta-alanine that day. I didn't mention the beta-alanine, and I guess I could be wrong, but I said post workout, I used to always take beta-alanine post workout, so regularly I wouldn't have suspected it, and if I was "on lean gains", that to me means i wouldn't have passed up my powerhouse post workout supps, like beta-alanine. I also said a cherry coke came just before the visuals, so that would be caffeine.

The second time on the 12 Oct, I also had beta-alanine, and then coffee set it off. Yes, I had many other things that day, and most of them I had today except I hadn't taken these from that list (?? means maybe I did take it today, not sure)
 

5-htp

choline bitartrate

l-theanine

ALCAR

noopept

great tea (not supp/extract)

zinc+

d3??

d2??

lutein

alpha lipoic acid??

But remember, I didn't have the full blown effect, just the nagging suspicion I was close, close enough to dump out the rest of my coffee!! Just wasn't in the mood to risk it.

Now, on Oct 12 I marked beta-alanine as a recent introduction. Yes, at times I take it nearly daily, but I hadn't been at that point. Lately I haven't been taking it regularly, but maybe once a week or so, on a workout day. That's part of why I had it on my mind, because I don't take it regularly, and it seems to pop up in all 3 occasions now. On the first occasion if anything I'd say it's the coffee that was the new addition. And today, yep, coffee, for the first time in over a week I'd say.

What I'm gonna do is not take any beta-alanine or drink any coffee until this weekend. Then, sat or sun, I'm going to take no supps, and just see if I can cause this with beta-alanine and coffee. I'll certainly know for sure then. :-)

And, for the record, I'm on a calories restricted diet for the past two days, limiting calories to 1800-ish, so that's also a common thread to all 3 (or 2.1) occurrences.

[niner]

Charles, you have a lot of variables here.  All these supplements, plus the changes in your diet.   One or more of these things could be tipping you into a state where you are more prone to migraine-like conditions, and any number of things might be acting as the trigger.  I think it's more important to find out what is changing your basal state.  The best way to sort it out might be to stop everything, and give your body time to equilibrate.  Then slowly add things back in, maybe one per week.  Between tribulis, resveratrol, and MB, I'd be most concerned about the tribulus.  The RIMA activity of MB and Resveratrol are negligible at the doses you're using.  I seriously doubt that the MB is doing anything at all at that dose, but if you think it works for you, don't stop on my account.

[Charles J. Daniels]

Hey niner, thanks, I'm always up for input/advice. I haven't been taking tribulus, resveratrol, or methylene blue recently. The second time I had this, those aren't listed and I was exhaustive: http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=694274

 

Yesterday I didn't take those, and it might have been a false alarm, but it felt like I was getting close to the same thing without those.

And the thing is, I've been taking the same set of supplements steady for going on over a month now, and quite possibly a full two. Yesterday I had only two things that I don't do regularly: beta-alanine and coffee, neither of which I'd done in well over a week, and both of which I had on my second time, and they weren't among my common things then either. So I'm for sure going to test those out this weekend to see if I can cause it.

It was so tempting to have coffee today! But I want to test out the beta-alanine / coffee combo this weekend, from my recent baseline.

[Charles J. Daniels]

So today I did my beta-alanine / coffee experiment and didn't reproduce the issue. However, on intuition alone, I don't rule these things out as factors, especially since every time this has come up I had something caffeinated in my hand at the time.

I took 2-3g of beta-alanine, and then 54min later drank a large coffee over 40mins (it was hot). Several things about this experiment, including taking beta-alanine without working out, not being on any type of diet, having only 1 coffee that was drank over a longer than normal time -- make this attempt feel contrived. But hey, it's still data towards my quest to know the exact things that do cause it, since I can rule out one more set of conditions :-p

For the record, I did take most of my normal supps today, which I wasn't planning on doing for "purity" but which actually fits better with the second occurrence anyway.

[Gerrans]

I have tried to deliberately trigger migraines, auras, etc., and cannot do so. Even when precisely repeating nutrition, exercise, stress conditions. The components are probably far more complex than we can orchestrate. Even scientists are still in the foothills of understanding what goes on.