28 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

Edit: "Indefinite Life" as a term, while frequently used, is not accurate for this forum's relevancy and the topic has been changed to reflect this.

 

IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR UNLIMITED LIFESPANS AND THE ABSENCE OF INVOLUNTARY DEATH???

 

This is a religious and non religious issue.  What is the evidence for indefinite life, either religious or not?  Who has proof or evidence?  How long are you going to live?  How are you going to do that?  What happens if you die?

 

Edited by cryonicsculture, 25 May 2014 - 02:27 AM.
relevancy

[N.T.M.]

There isn't evidence for it because it doesn't happen, at least not for people. Some organisms can live indefinitely, but all people eventually die. I'm not quite sure what you're asking. 

[YOLF]

OP/TS, are you talking about whether or not indefinite lifespans are possible from a sociocultural standpoint? IE, will the majority insist that people not be able to live indefinitely? 

 

Officially the term we like to use is "Unlimited Lifespans." Indefinite lifespans certainly do exist. Most people have no idea when they are going to die beyond a window timeframe that is subject to various healthstyle choices.

 

Is there evidence for Unlimited Lifespans? Is there evidence for a sociocultural limit that has been placed upon us? Is someone or some organization going to prevent us or interfere with our research and advocacy? Is there evidence that someone with authority will stop us and poison someone who makes successful strides to delimit or extend their lifespan using basement science by covertly delivering corrupted bulk supplements to them?

 

Are God organizations up to something like this? Would they hide such a fact so as to go unchallenged and prevent people from being able to organize effectively for that purpose though subterfuge and such espionage type things?

 

Your post worries me...

 

My goal is to not get old and dysfunctional. I don't believe in involuntary death. Meaning if I get old or I'm suffering, I'd rather die sooner than later and go into cryostasis. I'm already well beyond the my personal threshold for aging and reproduction in terms of health. I haven't chosen voluntary death because I haven't paid for my cryonics arrangements yet and the cryoproviders don't like to associate themselves with "suicide." We also may find a way to reverse aging in my lifetime while cryonics may take longer to reverse and I don't feel satisfied with my contribution to life extension yet. When I live in perpetual youth, I'd like to make to make the decision to live a daily choice. As Aubrey puts it, he doesn't know if he'll want to live to be 100, but he knows he'd rather make the decision closer to the time. I definitely want to live 1000 if I can do so in youth and good health, but I'd rather make the decision on an ongoing basis with the option for cryonics at any time when I'm waiting for a disease or element of aging to be cured. Though it all depends on the outcome of living longer. I don't remove the possibility of voluntary death being tomorrow.

 

If I were a fool for a deathist organization masquerading as life extension organization whose goal was to prevent any and all dissent or knowledge of where to apply for refugee status where ever I could advocate for RLE... That would be torture. I could easily have spared myself my life thus far. If something like that were to exist, it would be best if it were a gas chamber. Actually it would be best if we were rounded up and shot to death by firing squad in the street or at a superbowl if we did not recant our devotion for life extension (it is after all a death penalty... so why prolong a life of aging with a masquerade?). This would be more humane and I'd be more satisfied to be martyred at the hands of deathists than get old with no hope of being young again.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 21 May 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[shadowhawk]

OP/TS, are you talking about whether or not indefinite lifespans are possible from a sociocultural standpoint? IE, will the majority insist that people not be able to live indefinitely? 

 

Officially the term we like to use is "Unlimited Lifespans." Indefinite lifespans certainly do exist. Most people have no idea when they are going to die beyond a window timeframe that is subject to various healthstyle choices.

 

Is there evidence for Unlimited Lifespans? Is there evidence for a sociocultural limit that has been placed upon us? Is someone or some organization going to prevent us or interfere with our research and advocacy? Is there evidence that someone with authority will stop us and poison someone who makes successful strides to delimit or extend their lifespan using basement science by covertly delivering corrupted bulk supplements to them?

 

Are God organizations up to something like this? Would they hide such a fact so as to go unchallenged and prevent people from being able to organize effectively for that purpose though subterfuge and such espionage type things?

 

Your post worries me...

 

My goal is to not get old and dysfunctional. I don't believe in involuntary death. Meaning if I get old or I'm suffering, I'd rather die sooner than later and go into cryostasis. I'm already well beyond the my personal threshold for aging and reproduction. I haven't chosen voluntary death because I haven't paid for my cryonics arrangements yet and the cryoproviders don't like to associate themselves with "suicide." We also may find a way to reverse aging in my lifetime while cryonics may take longer to reverse and I don't feel satisfied with my contribution to life extension yet. When I live in perpetual youth, I'd like to make to make the decision to live a daily choice. As Aubrey puts it, he doesn't know if he'll want to live to be 100, but he knows he'd rather make the decision closer to the time. I definitely want to live 1000 if I can do so in youth and good health, but I'd rather make the decision on an ongoing basis with the option for cryonics at any time when I'm waiting for a disease or element of aging to be cured. Though it all depends on the outcome of living longer. I don't remove the possibility of voluntary death being tomorrow.

 

If I were a fool for a deathist organization masquerading as life extension organization whose goal was to prevent any and all dissent or knowledge of where to apply for refugee status where ever I could advocate for RLE... That would be torture. I could easily have spared myself my life thus far. If something like that were to exist, it would be best if it were a gas chamber. Actually it would be best if we were rounded up and shot to death by firing squad in the street or at a superbowl if we did not recant our devotion for life extension (it is after all a death penalty... so why prolong a life of aging with a masquerade?). This would be more humane and I'd be more satisfied to be martyred at the hands of deathists than get old with no hope of being young again.

Good post.  Question, are yoy getting older?  Are you aging?

[YOLF]

Thanks. Yes, I'm aging. I'm not aware of any way to reverse aging at this point. I wouldn't consider myself to be aging or getting older if I had attained unlimited age reversal or a level of health that allowed me to not get less healthy over time and such became common place, I would think "aging" and "getting older" would be relegated to archaic synonyms in thesauruses and our existence in the passage of time would be known as something else.

 

Made an edit to my original post for clarity.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 21 May 2014 - 03:28 AM.

[DrW]

Excerpted from The Epoch Times

 

A 3-year-old boy in the Golan Heights region near the border of Syria and Israel said he was murdered with an axe in his previous life. He showed village elders where the murderer buried his body, and sure enough they found a man’s skeleton there. He also showed the elders where the murder weapon was found, and upon digging, they did indeed found an axe there.

In his book, “Children Who Have Lived Before: Reincarnation Today,” German therapist Trutz Hardo tells this boy’s story, along with other stories of children who seem to remember their past lives with verified accuracy. The boy’s story was witnessed by Dr. Eli Lasch, who is best known for developing the medical system in Gaza as part of an Israeli government operation in the 1960s. Dr. Lasch, who died in 2009, had recounted these astounding events to Hardo.

The boy was of the Druze ethnic group, and in his culture the existence of reincarnation is accepted as fact. His story nonetheless had the power to surprise his community.

He was born with a long, red birthmark on his head. The Druse believe, as some other cultures do, that birthmarks are related to past-life deaths. When the boy was old enough to talk, he told his family he had been killed by a blow to the head with an axe.

It is customary for elders to take a child at the age of 3 to the home of his previous life if he remembers it. The boy knew the village he was from, so they went there. When they arrived in the village, the boy remembered the name he had in his past life. 

A village local said the man the boy claimed to be the reincarnation of had gone missing four years earlier. His friends and family thought he may have strayed into hostile territory nearby as sometimes happens.

The boy also remembered the full name of his killer. When he confronted this man, the alleged killer’s face turned white, Lasch told Hardo, but he did not admit to murder. The boy then said he could take the elders to where the body was buried. In that very spot, they found a man’s skeleton with a wound to the head that corresponded to the boy’s birthmark. They also found the axe, the murder weapon.

Faced with this evidence, the murderer admitted to the crime. Dr. Lasch, the only non-Druze, was present through this whole process.

[shadowhawk]

Excerpted from The Epoch Times

 

A 3-year-old boy in the Golan Heights region near the border of Syria and Israel said he was murdered with an axe in his previous life. He showed village elders where the murderer buried his body, and sure enough they found a man’s skeleton there. He also showed the elders where the murder weapon was found, and upon digging, they did indeed found an axe there.

In his book, “Children Who Have Lived Before: Reincarnation Today,” German therapist Trutz Hardo tells this boy’s story, along with other stories of children who seem to remember their past lives with verified accuracy. The boy’s story was witnessed by Dr. Eli Lasch, who is best known for developing the medical system in Gaza as part of an Israeli government operation in the 1960s. Dr. Lasch, who died in 2009, had recounted these astounding events to Hardo.

The boy was of the Druze ethnic group, and in his culture the existence of reincarnation is accepted as fact. His story nonetheless had the power to surprise his community.

He was born with a long, red birthmark on his head. The Druse believe, as some other cultures do, that birthmarks are related to past-life deaths. When the boy was old enough to talk, he told his family he had been killed by a blow to the head with an axe.

It is customary for elders to take a child at the age of 3 to the home of his previous life if he remembers it. The boy knew the village he was from, so they went there. When they arrived in the village, the boy remembered the name he had in his past life. 

A village local said the man the boy claimed to be the reincarnation of had gone missing four years earlier. His friends and family thought he may have strayed into hostile territory nearby as sometimes happens.

The boy also remembered the full name of his killer. When he confronted this man, the alleged killer’s face turned white, Lasch told Hardo, but he did not admit to murder. The boy then said he could take the elders to where the body was buried. In that very spot, they found a man’s skeleton with a wound to the head that corresponded to the boy’s birthmark. They also found the axe, the murder weapon.

Faced with this evidence, the murderer admitted to the crime. Dr. Lasch, the only non-Druze, was present through this whole process.

So you seem to be saying this is evidence of past lives.  How does this fit in with indefinite life as viewed here on Longecity?

[DrW]

 

Excerpted from The Epoch Times

 

A 3-year-old boy in the Golan Heights region near the border of Syria and Israel said he was murdered with an axe in his previous life. He showed village elders where the murderer buried his body, and sure enough they found a man’s skeleton there. He also showed the elders where the murder weapon was found, and upon digging, they did indeed found an axe there.

In his book, “Children Who Have Lived Before: Reincarnation Today,” German therapist Trutz Hardo tells this boy’s story, along with other stories of children who seem to remember their past lives with verified accuracy. The boy’s story was witnessed by Dr. Eli Lasch, who is best known for developing the medical system in Gaza as part of an Israeli government operation in the 1960s. Dr. Lasch, who died in 2009, had recounted these astounding events to Hardo.

The boy was of the Druze ethnic group, and in his culture the existence of reincarnation is accepted as fact. His story nonetheless had the power to surprise his community.

He was born with a long, red birthmark on his head. The Druse believe, as some other cultures do, that birthmarks are related to past-life deaths. When the boy was old enough to talk, he told his family he had been killed by a blow to the head with an axe.

It is customary for elders to take a child at the age of 3 to the home of his previous life if he remembers it. The boy knew the village he was from, so they went there. When they arrived in the village, the boy remembered the name he had in his past life. 

A village local said the man the boy claimed to be the reincarnation of had gone missing four years earlier. His friends and family thought he may have strayed into hostile territory nearby as sometimes happens.

The boy also remembered the full name of his killer. When he confronted this man, the alleged killer’s face turned white, Lasch told Hardo, but he did not admit to murder. The boy then said he could take the elders to where the body was buried. In that very spot, they found a man’s skeleton with a wound to the head that corresponded to the boy’s birthmark. They also found the axe, the murder weapon.

Faced with this evidence, the murderer admitted to the crime. Dr. Lasch, the only non-Druze, was present through this whole process.

So you seem to be saying this is evidence of past lives.  How does this fit in with indefinite life as viewed here on Longecity?

 

So you are saying that continued existence, alternating between an incarnate and disincarnate state via reincarnation, is not indefinite life?

 

Indefinite life in a material state is absurd. How could anyone even wonder about this given that all atoms die eventually.

[shadowhawk]

 

  DrW:  So you are saying that continued existence, alternating between an incarnate and disincarnate state via reincarnation, is not indefinite life?
Indefinite life in a material state is absurd. How could anyone even wonder about this given that all atoms die eventually.

No, I didn't say any of that.  I just asked you a question based on my understanding of what you were saying.  Also do atoms die?  Is that what entropy is?

[DrW]

 

 

 

  DrW:  So you are saying that continued existence, alternating between an incarnate and disincarnate state via reincarnation, is not indefinite life?
Indefinite life in a material state is absurd. How could anyone even wonder about this given that all atoms die eventually.

No, I didn't say any of that.  I just asked you a question based on my understanding of what you were saying.  Also do atoms die?  Is that what entropy is?

 

 

Atoms die, and are constantly being reborn from the stars. Everything dies at a material level, which is why the subject of this thread is absurd, if it refers to physical life.

 

Death and rebirth, transformation from one form to another, are basic fractal organizing causality processes at the basis of the the universe. This reincarnation is indefinite life.  

[shadowhawk]

DrW: Atoms die, and are constantly being reborn from the stars. Everything dies at a material level, which is why the subject of this thread is absurd, if it refers to physical life.
Death and rebirth, transformation from one form to another, are basic fractal organizing causality processes at the basis of the the universe. This reincarnation is indefinite life.

I don’t think atoms die but the entire cosmos is undergoing entropy.  Nothing dies at a material level, it just changes form.  What do you mean by death, it sounds like you are talking about going out of existence totally..  Is that true of the physical?

The thread is absurd if it refers to physical life?  So is the physical reincarnated or only the spiritual?  Is creation of the physical still going on?  The physical ceases but is created again by the stars?

So you are talking about reincarnation and this is the way you get indefinite life.  Your evidence is past life memories.  Do you have a Hindu, Buddhist or New Age background?

[DrW]

 

DrW: Atoms die, and are constantly being reborn from the stars. Everything dies at a material level, which is why the subject of this thread is absurd, if it refers to physical life.
Death and rebirth, transformation from one form to another, are basic fractal organizing causality processes at the basis of the the universe. This reincarnation is indefinite life.

I don’t think atoms die but the entire cosmos is undergoing entropy.  Nothing dies at a material level, it just changes form.  What do you mean by death, it sounds like you are talking about going out of existence totally..  Is that true of the physical?

The thread is absurd if it refers to physical life?  So is the physical reincarnated or only the spiritual?  Is creation of the physical still going on?  The physical ceases but is created again by the stars?

So you are talking about reincarnation and this is the way you get indefinite life.  Your evidence is past life memories.  Do you have a Hindu, Buddhist or New Age background?

 

 

So you don't think atoms die. Do you know that atoms don't die or is this just your speculation? Do you think that atoms are constantly being created by star death? If atoms are constantly being created and atoms don't die do you think that there is an indefinite multiplication of atoms in the universe? So you have to think that atoms do not die and are not constantly being created. Or you have to realize that atoms die and are constanly being reborn in reincarnation of matter. 

 

The quantum (spiritual) is eternal, outside of space and time. Material manifestations of the quantum are time limited (life and then death), and exist in space and time while they exist.

 

Life at a material level is not indefinite but thought (quantum computation) is indefinite.

[shadowhawk]

DrW, I asked you what death is.  If it is entropy than they die but if it means they cease to be, no.  Star dust is just that, star dust made up of pre-existing matter made of pre-existing matter all starting in the Big Bang.  I didn’t say atoms are being constantly created.  I asked you if you believe that.  What does “reborn” mean when you say atoms are reborn?  Are they reincarnated?

And is quantum spiritual or material?  Is it eternal, outside space and time or is it created, part of the physical world?  I think it is a part of the space/time material world.  We are getting off track from our topic.

Vote

[YOLF]

As stated before, indefinite life, while used frequently, is a misnomer. What we at LongeCity are seeking are unlimited lifespans and an end to involuntary death. This means that we could live millions (being as healthy, fit, and young as a 20 year old if not more) of years if we so chose, but that some of us might only be interested in living to 100 without ever aging or suffering ill health. 

 

There is certainly evidence and proof of indefinite life as people or some or another lifeform will be around until something like heat death occurs (if it exists), but for the purpose of this forum, indefinite life should be viewed as unlimited lifespans and an end to involuntary death. Someone living a "reincarnated life" is not evidence of unlimited lifespans if they didn't get there through cryonics or some other means of biological preservation. I've changed the topic's title to unlimited lifespans.

[DrW]

DrW, I asked you what death is.  If it is entropy than they die but if it means they cease to be, no.  Star dust is just that, star dust made up of pre-existing matter made of pre-existing matter all starting in the Big Bang.  I didn’t say atoms are being constantly created.  I asked you if you believe that.  What does “reborn” mean when you say atoms are reborn?  Are they reincarnated?

And is quantum spiritual or material?  Is it eternal, outside space and time or is it created, part of the physical world?  I think it is a part of the space/time material world.  We are getting off track from our topic.

Vote

 

Death is decomposition, into component parts or energy or both.  Most atoms stay intact for a very long time.  Stars create atoms when they die, as in producing a supernova to source new atoms. The quantum is a bridge from computation (as in thought) to the material. I only have a general understanding of these matters so I can only talk in generalities. Reincarnation, time travel in time slips (see Jenny Randles book on time Slips) and near death experiences offer the best evidence for the idea that computation creates materialization of events independent of a physical life. The quantum is somewhat independent of space-time materialization as evidenced in non-locality, quantum eraser experiments, quantum tunneling, and quantum ghost phenomena.  

[DrW]

As stated before, indefinite life, while used frequently, is a misnomer. What we at LongeCity are seeking are unlimited lifespans and an end to involuntary death. This means that we could live millions (being as healthy, fit, and young as a 20 year old if not more) of years if we so chose, but that some of us might only be interested in living to 100 without ever aging or suffering ill health. 

 

There is certainly evidence and proof of indefinite life as people or some or another lifeform will be around until something like heat death occurs (if it exists), but for the purpose of this forum, indefinite life should be viewed as unlimited lifespans and an end to involuntary death. Someone living a "reincarnated life" is not evidence of unlimited lifespans if they didn't get there through cryonics or some other means of biological preservation. I've changed the topic's title to unlimited lifespans.

 

Lots of luck with evidence for an unlimited lifespan. Better chance in a search for the holy grail. No one has ever been revived with from a cryonic state. There are stories of toads being encased in a rock for many hundreds of years and coming to life upon being released. Microbes can survive for extremely long periods under certain conditions. Humans don't make it past about 125 years at the most. There is evidence of an increased life span under certain conditions but none for unlimited life spans.

[YOLF]

Ah, but we learn from the examples. The frogs inspired the first cryopreservation solution. We have since discovered a variety of improved cryoprotectants which we're in the process of getting produced by bacteria. Sooner or later we'll get it right. Sooner or later, we'll develop the technologies to bring back the previous generations of cryonicists. We're almost there.

[shadowhawk]

As stated before, indefinite life, while used frequently, is a misnomer.  Well Broken portal refers to "indefinite" life.  I Suggest it is a proper usage.  It covers eternal life, short life of a week, 70 years, 129 years, 200 years or longer.   Unlimited lifespan is a different animal altogether.  Can you just choose to live forever.  Those who say you can need to produce some evidence.  That is why I asked for it.  Do you need faith to believe in Unlimited Lifespan?

[DrW]

"Can you just choose to live forever."

 

 

 

You can chose to do anything, but that doesn't mean it will happen.

 

Yes, I chose to live forever. Will I ? Don't bet on it.

 

 

 

"Do you need faith to believe in Unlimited Lifespan?"
 

 

 

You need faith to believe in anything that can't be proven, like a moral God or man made global warming.

 

Human thought is rampant with opinions based on thought disorder (delusions and loose generalizations). Politicians exploit these invalid opinions and people with invalid opinions elect con artists who as leaders further degrade the nation.

 

The question becomes: What evidence do you have for indefinite or unlimited life?

[shadowhawk]

"Can you just choose to live forever."

 

 

 

You can chose to do anything, but that doesn't mean it will happen.

 

Yes, I chose to live forever. Will I ? Don't bet on it.

 

 

 

"Do you need faith to believe in Unlimited Lifespan?"
 

 

 

You need faith to believe in anything that can't be proven, like a moral God or man made global warming.

 

Human thought is rampant with opinions based on thought disorder (delusions and loose generalizations). Politicians exploit these invalid opinions and people with invalid opinions elect con artists who as leaders further degrade the nation.

 

The question becomes: What evidence do you have for indefinite or unlimited life?

I agree, except nothing can be proven except math.  At best we have evidence.

[DrW]

So if nothing can be proven in the world then nothing can be valid or invalid ?

 

Preposterous.

 

Show me a 1000 year old human who has actively lived for 1000 years and I will start thinking about indefinite or unlimited lifespan.

 

[serp777]

So if nothing can be proven in the world then nothing can be valid or invalid ?

 

Preposterous.

 

Show me a 1000 year old human who has actively lived for 1000 years and I will start thinking about indefinite or unlimited lifespan.

 

 

Technically shadowhawk is right in that nothing is absolutely certain like it is in math. We simply have probabilities that certain things are true. For example, the fact that conservation of energy is true probably has a probability of 99.999.........% with over a thousand 9s in the decimal places, based on all available empirical evidence. It's so close to being true that we may as well accept it as true as something in math.

 

However, nothing in math, on a fundamental level, is a universal truth. Math is based on a set of axioms. Because of the incompleteness theorem, we know that there are an infinite number of different axioms that we could use. Math will never be finished in other words. So basically, nothing is certain in math either since the axioms of math are uncertain themselves. In fact, contemporary math already has big contradictions. For example, one of the axioms of math is that any collection of objects can be made into sets.

 

The problem with that is a set like this: the set of all sets that don't include themselves. This means that certain sets simply do not exist, which contradicts one of the axioms of mathematics.

[shadowhawk]

So if nothing can be proven in the world then nothing can be valid or invalid ?

 

Preposterous.

 

Show me a 1000 year old human who has actively lived for 1000 years and I will start thinking about indefinite or unlimited lifespan.

 

Proof and evidence are not the sane thing.  You can't prove no one ever lived for 1000 years but there is no evidence for it.  You are jumping to conclusions.  Yes, things can be valikd or invalid based on evidence.

[shadowhawk]

 

So if nothing can be proven in the world then nothing can be valid or invalid ?

 

Preposterous.

 

Show me a 1000 year old human who has actively lived for 1000 years and I will start thinking about indefinite or unlimited lifespan.

 

 

Technically shadowhawk is right in that nothing is absolutely certain like it is in math. We simply have probabilities that certain things are true. For example, the fact that conservation of energy is true probably has a probability of 99.999.........% with over a thousand 9s in the decimal places, based on all available empirical evidence. It's so close to being true that we may as well accept it as true as something in math.

 

However, nothing in math, on a fundamental level, is a universal truth. Math is based on a set of axioms. Because of the incompleteness theorem, we know that there are an infinite number of different axioms that we could use. Math will never be finished in other words. So basically, nothing is certain in math either since the axioms of math are uncertain themselves. In fact, contemporary math already has big contradictions. For example, one of the axioms of math is that any collection of objects can be made into sets.

 

The problem with that is a set like this: the set of all sets that don't include themselves. This means that certain sets simply do not exist, which contradicts one of the axioms of mathematics.

 

Well we agree on something.  See the discussion in the Atheist topic on Godel.

[DrW]

Yes only in logic or math, within a closed sysyem, can proof with certaintly be achieved, but that is always proof by definition. The proven answer is a restatement of the problem, according to the rules of the closed system. The answer 4 is a restatement of the problem of what is 2 + 2 according to the rules of addition - true by definition. 

 

But in the real world there is validity and invalidity that may not be certain (some morning at some future time, the sun will not rise as predicted, when the earth is pulled into the sun), but is certain enough to be useful, and that is proof or validity.

 

So is the probability that the sun will rise in the morning sufficient to constitute certainity? That probabilty is one over a very large number, and is a certainity within anyone's lifetime. Do we care if the sun will not rise say in 7 billion years, so we can predict it with certainity tomorrow? No. The sun will certainly rise tomorrow and with certainty.

 

The material world is a closed system whereby if we could know and mesasure all variables in perfect understanding of all relationships between these variable, we could predict with certainty. I believe at the non-material quantum and sub-quantum levels that we encounter an open system where causality varies, but this changes (most all of the time) when the non-material is expressed materially to conform with material causality. Sub atomic forces are filtered (selected) in being expressed as an atom in conformance with material causality. Paranormal material expression occurs (but rarely) to upset the material order on a local basis.   

[shadowhawk]

There is no such thing as certainty only probability.  Math itself rests on a logic of assumptions which has been stated.  What is the nature of abstract objects such as math.  Do we know with certainty that it is real and if it is real what is its nature?

[DrW]

The material universe is logically ordered, so any logical system (like math) may fit to mirror the material universe if the rules of that system are compatible with material causality. We say that it is real because it describes and predicts material events.

 

A symbolic system that has overgeneralized rules will be flawed, invalid at times, and will contain contradictions. It may not always match with material events. Perhaps it is real in some alternate (perhaps non-material) universe, as is a dream.

 

What is real in the material world?

 

Valid descriptions and predictions of events in the material world are real.

 

How do we know if they are valid?

 

Because they consistently allow us to obtain pleasure or fulfillment and avoid pain or failure to a maximal degree.

 

Try obtaining pleasure and avoiding pain by falsely describing and predicting material events - it can kill you.

 

Edited by DrW, 26 May 2014 - 05:18 AM.

[shadowhawk]

Back to the topic, if there is evidence of unlimited lifespans and the absence of involuntary death, I would like to see it.  Does this involve faith?

[YOLF]

I would say that it does involve faith. I have faith that people will keep trying to thaw me out for the purpose of seeing me live again b/c the right thing to do is save an otherwise dead life. I have faith that the cryonics organizations will survive to do this and I have faith that added information and ever improving standards will yield something revolutionary as regards the value of human lives and human experience.

 

The evidence is the people who are working for it today. The evidence is that we keep getting closer and have more and more tools at our disposal every day. The obstacles that would prevent us are being beaten one by one and sometimes lots all at once.