24 replies to this topic

[Phoenicis]

So I know alot of people on here take, but there were also studies linking vitamin e supplementation with increased risk for prostate cancer.

I take an algae EPA/DHA supplement w/o vitamin e, but don't know if this is an issue since these tend not to rancid as easily as fish oil. Would almond consumption be the safest bet for getting vitamin e, or are there good supplements? What should one look for in a good supplement?

[gt35r]

Vitamin E is a tough one because its not actually one vitamin.

 

Vitamin E can now refer to alpha,beta,gamma,  tocopherol; I believe nose we are including tocotrienols into the umbrella of vitamin E. The best source of mixed tocopherol / mixed tocotrienol soured would probably be palm oil and/or wheat germ oil. The best viable source for vitamin E is probably walnuts and almonds. Tocotrienols are a pain in the ass to obtain because even if you take wheat germ oil or palm oil you would still need to consume about a cup or two worth just to get reasonable dose of it. 

 

My advice to you would be to do what I do and to eat walnuts and almonds. 

[Gerrans]

 

My advice to you would be to do what I do and to eat walnuts and almonds. 

 

I agree with you. Having read lots of the confusing research on Vitamin E, I believe it is too difficult for supplement makers, let alone individuals, to work out how to get Vitamin E components in the right combinations and proportions. So I let mother nature do the chemistry, and I eat mixed nuts, which I regard as, amongst other things, a Vitamin E supplement.

[gt35r]

if there was anything worth supplementing that is Vitamin E or Vitamin E like would be tocotrienols; tocotrienols are almost impossible to get in the diet at a significant amount so supplementing would be the only way. The research on tocotrienols is paper thin (compared to tocopherol)  and I do not supplement it personally so I would not advice anyone else to do it.

 

When I was still an undergraduate student one of my biochemistry instructors brought up the study regarding Vitamin E being ineffective for stroke and heart disease and possibly counter productive for prostate cancer. His, and the majority of his fellow researchers, main concern was the study only used dextro alpha tocopherol. What the study did show is that alpha tocopherol on its own not only has no advantages but may have a negative pharmacological affect since it can block the utilization of the other tocopherols. 

 

Either way I would like to see a high quality study done again this time using mixed tocopherol and tocotrienols. If I was designing the study I would do placebo vs mixed tocopherols only vs mixed tocopherol only vs mixed tocopherol and tocotrienol.  

 

Vitamin E is certainly the most bizarre vitamin in my opinion; maybe wit the exception of Vitamin A. 

Edited by gt35r, 23 May 2014 - 09:13 PM.

[HipsterDoofus]

The confusion is due to the differing study findings between the synthetic forms of vitamin E vs the natural forms of vitamin E.

 

The research studies lump them all together under one name of vitamin E. So when you hear it on the news of the new study of linking "bad thing" with vitamin E, always ask yourself which specific form of it was the study about. Because they fail to mention the specifics on the news.

 

 

d-alpha tocopherol = natural form of vitamin E (animal or plant source)

- powerful antioxident

- required in many cellular functions

- benefits heart, liver, brain

- lowers blood pressure

- helps lower cholesterol

- helps make blood thinner and flow better

- initial studies showed it extends lifespan in mice by up to 35%.

 

dl-alpha tocopherol = synthetic form of vitamin E (crude oil/petrolum production source)

- mirrored molecule of above

- cells can use it, but outcomes differ greatly

- implicated with increasing cancer risk greatly

- many have allergic reaction to it

- implicated with increasing risks of cardiovasular disease

- many studies showed it lowered lifespans by 20%

 

 

Basically if you were to look at all the studies done with vitamin E what you will see is that the synthetic and altered forms of vitamin E are exceptionally bad, and make you worse in terms of health. While the natural forms of vitamin E are exceptionally good for health and longevity.

 

So be careful and make sure to read ingredients list. If it doesnt exactly say "d-alpha tocopherol" assume its a synthetic form and steer clear. Also watch out for tricks played by the manufacturers. Example: "d-alpha tocopherol acetate" is not the natural form, its a synthetic. So to play on the confusion some manufacturers will give alternate names to their synthetic forms by using those names with the trailing acetates, succinates, acetyls, etc.

 

Some will go as far as hiding the synthetic forms in a generalized term of "mixed tocopherols" and "mixed tocotrienols". So its always best to go with a reputable source, and make sure its from a natural source and natural form of vitamin E only with no other synthetics.

 

Edited by HipsterDoofus, 21 December 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Vitamin-E is one of the most common deficiencies in the typical diet, with over 90% not getting enough from foods (see attached)

 

Vitamin-E may well be the best medicine for brain/neurological preservation as the bodies primary lipid antioxidant.  Keep in mind the myelin "insulation" for ALL neurons is about 80% lipid material.  Vitamin-E has been shown to slow the progression of Alzheimer's about as well as or better than any medicine known to man.  It has not been tested to prevent Alzheimer's yet, but common sense would indicate a substantial potential.  

 

The PIVENS trial indicates Vitamin-E may well be the "best medicine" for NASH (Non-Alcoholic Steato-Hepatitis), which is reaching alarming levels in the modern world due to increased consumption of polyunsaturated fats and iron fortification of foods.  Iron is the catalyst for lipid peroxidation and Vitamin-E is the bodies primary defense against this reaction.  

 

The prostate cancer connection is the joker in the deck with Vitamin-E and is getting a lot of publicity of late, but when it comes to risk vs reward, I'm placing my bets on liver and neurological health.  Vitamin-E is after all an "essential" vitamin...  Ignore it at your peril.  

 

Nuts/seeds are rich in Vitamin-E, but also rich in polyunsaturated fat/oil.  They contain enough Vitamin-E to keep the oil in the nut/seed from going rancid.  Whether they contain enough Vitamin-E to keep lipids in the body from going rancid in a world where iron fortification and high level consumption of polyunsaturated vegetable oil is the norm is debatable.  

 

Let the debate begin!  

Attached Files

•  Vitamin-E Most Common Deficiency.pdf   200.13KB   14 downloads

Edited by synesthesia, 21 December 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Michael]

The confusion is due to the differing study findings between the synthetic forms of vitamin E vs the natural forms of vitamin E.
 
The research studies lump them all together under one name of vitamin E. So when you hear it on the news of the new study of linking "bad thing" with vitamin E, always ask yourself which specific form of it was the study about. Because they fail to mention the specifics on the news.

 
Despite the impression supplement companies like to give, most of the "vitamin E" clinical trials have used RRR-α-tocopherol ("natural" α-T). Fewer have used mixed or synthetic.
 

Vitamin-E is one of the most common deficiencies in the typical diet, with over 90% not getting enough from foods

 
This is based on dietary surveys, which although good for epidemiological research tend to underestimate intake of most foods and especially key sources of vitamin E (added oils in the diet and "serving sizes"of nuts), so this is probably exaggerated. Irrespective this is a dead-easy to fix this from diet without resorting to supplements, as gt35r and Gerrans suggest.
 

Vitamin-E may well be the best medicine for brain/neurological preservation as the bodies primary lipid antioxidant.  Keep in mind the myelin "insulation" for ALL neurons is about 80% lipid material.  Vitamin-E has been shown to slow the progression of Alzheimer's about as well as or better than any medicine known to man.  It has not been tested to prevent Alzheimer's yet, but common sense would indicate a substantial potential.

 
In fact, while (as you say) high-dose vitamin E does seem to slow the progression of the disease in people with existing Alzheimer's disease (which, to be clear, is an absolute blessing even if the effect size is modest), there have been multiple clinical trials of vitamin E in normally-aging people and people with mild cognitive impairment, and they have uniformly found no benefit of vitamin E in slowing cognitive decline or delaying conversion to dementia. See citations and an interview with one of the trialists in this post.
 

The PIVENS trial indicates Vitamin-E may well be the "best medicine" for NASH (Non-Alcoholic Steato-Hepatitis), which is reaching alarming levels in the modern world due to increased consumption of polyunsaturated fats and iron fortification of foods.  Iron is the catalyst for lipid peroxidation and Vitamin-E is the bodies primary defense against this reaction.

A very hopeful trial — if you have NASH. Don't make the mistake of assuming that something that's effective for treating existing disease will be helpful for prevention of that disease or "enhancing" normal function. For the vast majority, the way to avoid NASH is to maintain a healthy body composition with diet and exercise.

[Gerrans]

The more I have read about Vitamin E in an attempt to be informed, the more I have gone round in circles. What with all the different tocopherols and tocotrienols, the fact that some are said to inhibit others, the lack of certain of them in various supplements and foods, and the intricate oddities of the research, I decided in the end to satisfy myself with a folksy, unscientific view.

 

That is the idea that nature knows best and would hardly beset us with a nutrient that plays nasty tricks on our system. So I regard--not just for this reason--nuts as vitamin pills. I eat mixed nuts, because each type seems to possess different complexes of Vitamin E. My gamble is that any potential bad actions of Vitamin E components will be offset by balancing factors in the nuts themselves--in the same way that nuts contain factors to prevent the premature oxidation of their polyunsaturated fats. I eat nuts every day and this way hope my Vitamin E needs will be taken care off. If not, then I give up on the matter.

Edited by Gerrans, 23 December 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

I haven't looked into how much Vitamin-E might remain in today's vegetable oils, but I believe most are processed, deodorized and stabilized at high temperatures.  I'm sure fresh/raw nuts and seeds are rich in E, but again, most nuts are roasted and seeds heat sterilized.  What does all this heat (presumably in the presence of oxygen)  do the polyunsaturated oils in nuts, seeds and vegetable oils and the Vitamin-E they contain?  

 

To blithely assume Vitamin-E may not be protective against Alzheimer's or fatty liver disease simply because it has only been shown effective in treating these conditions is akin to believing Vitamin-C might not prevent scurvy back when it was discovered to be an effective remedy.  The British "Limey's" took their unproven medicine and stayed healthy, while the rest of the world suffered in sickness for the better part of a Century.  Which was the wisest group?  Seems a no-brainer to me.   

 

Fatty liver disease has reached epidemic levels and Alzheimer's may well bankrupt the world as the boomers head into their geriatric years.  If there is a simple and inexpensive way to fix these two ominous issues it would be the mother of all SNAFU's to blow this chance now before the cost of treating these populations heads into the trillions of dollars.  

 

A study of one going on with me...  I'll get back with you in 25 years or so and let you know how things turned out.  

Edited by synesthesia, 24 December 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[Michael]

I haven't looked into how much Vitamin-E might remain in today's vegetable oils, but I believe most are processed, deodorized and stabilized at high temperatures.

 
Even when that's true, they generally (and a bit ironically) have added vitamin E, since they need an antioxidant as a preservative and BHT, propyl gallate, etc are out of fashion.
 

I'm sure fresh/raw nuts and seeds are rich in E, but again, most nuts are roasted and seeds heat sterilized.  What does all this heat (presumably in the presence of oxygen)  do the polyunsaturated oils in nuts, seeds and vegetable oils and the Vitamin-E they contain?

 
As any standard nutrition base will tell you, they still have most of their original content. Raw and oil-roasted almonds have the same vitamin E content, and dry-roasted ones only 10% less; oil-roasted cashews actually contain more vitamin E than raw ones, presumably because cashews are naturally low in vitamin E as nuts go and the roasting oil adds more than the roasting process depletes.
 
I certainly agree with you that it is healthier to consume unrefined oils and minimally-treated nuts, but not for fear of pandemic vitamin E deficiency.

 

And again, the above can be changed with a dietary change without resorting to supplements.
 

To blithely assume Vitamin-E may not be protective against Alzheimer's or fatty liver disease simply because it has only been shown effective in treating these conditions is akin to believing Vitamin-C might not prevent scurvy back when it was discovered to be an effective remedy.

 

Certainly in the case of age-related cognitive decline and dementia, I am not assuming a lack of preventive effect: as indicated, there have been four placebo-controlled trials to test the idea, and they've all flopped. I would more generally say that rather than assuming a lack of preventive effect, I am noting that one should not (logically) assume that an effective treatment is an effective prophylactic (the AD case being one illustration; chemo for cancer being another, albeit extreme one). The burden of evidence is on the person making the positive claim.

Edited by Michael, 24 December 2014 - 04:43 AM.

[StevesPetRat]

I'm putting my money with tocotrienols, particularly alpha, unless you have a cholesterol problem, in which case gamma and delta will be to your benefit. Unfortunately, at the present time, no pure alpha-tocotrienol source exists.

Citations needed, but I have someplace to be Happy googling!

[Dorian Grey]

I doubt anyone will escape some level of "age-related cognitive decline and dementia" if they live long enough, and I recon there is no magic bullet that will fix this any time soon.  To opine that as Vitamin-E can not solve this problem it should not be given careful consideration as a top tier supplement against the coming tsunami of Alzheimer's as baby boomers enter their geriatric stage of life is disturbing...  

 

There are compelling observations Vitamin-E may well be the "best medicine" at treating Alzheimer's with less side effects than pharmaceuticals currently in use.  It may well be it will not effectively prevent AD in all etiologies, but like Vitamin-C and scurvy, it would seem likely to have both a protective and therapeutic effect, with a remarkable risk/reward ratio.

 

I don't know how much proof or how many more studies it will take to satisfy a rationale for its use, but one thing is for sure...  We don't have much more time.  A tsunami of Alzheimer's would break the financial back of the developed world if it comes to pass.  I don't know how much you'd have to pay someone to babysit an entire generation of citizens who's brains have turned to mush, but I wouldn't do it for all the money in the world.   

 

The clock is ticking...  Do we throw up our hands and say "Oh well, no proof yet", or might it be high time for a Hail Mary pass at a promising, cheap, and remarkably benign therapy?  

[Michael]

It's failed in prevention in four clinical trials. How can it possibly be regarded as "promising"?

[Dorian Grey]

Promising in that in at least one trial E appears to slow progression of established Alzheimer's...  

 

If E does in fact have even a modest effect on the progression of Alzheimer's, this would be something of interest to the millions around the world entering their senior years.  I'm one of those people and though I'm not particularly frightened of dying, Alzheimer's does concern me.  

 

Whether E is effective at delaying onset of AD, slowing progression of early stage AD to the moderate stage, or moderate AD to advanced is not particularly important.  It appears to have "some" anti-AD properties along with a safety record that does not frighten me nearly as much as Alzheimer's.  

 

I personally feel that as "Iron is at the Core of Alzheimer's Disease" 

 

http://newsroom.ucla...hat-iron-247864

 

And as E slows progression of this iron induced disease, a combination therapy of iron reduction along with moderate E supplementation might benefit me over time.  This fits in nicely with the Iron/E myelin sheath oxidation theory.  Myelin sheaths are 80% lipids...  Iron is the primary catalyst for oxidation of susceptible lipids and is known to accumulate with age...  E is the bodies primary lipid antioxidant and seems to slow progression of at least one form of brain disease occurring in aged populations.  Put these facts together and you now have a more realistic approach to avoiding neurological deterioration in your own life.  

 

Most disease processes do not have a singular factor etiologies and those looking for singular magic bullets are likely to be chronically disappointed.  I take multiple clues from different studies and combine them and this has worked well for me.  When one is unimpressed with minor successes studying isolated factors, it's time to look at how these minor successes might fit into the bigger picture.  

Edited by synesthesia, 24 December 2014 - 11:43 PM.

[caruga]

This might be of interest to someone.  Glutathione activates the prevention of lipid peroxidation by vitamin e.

[Kalliste]

It's failed in prevention in four clinical trials. How can it possibly be regarded as "promising"?

 

It could be because of the way this testing is done. I.e isolate every compound and test them one at a time. Maybe vitamin E needs to be given to our body with a dozen micronutrients that we don't know of right now.

[Dolph]

 

It's failed in prevention in four clinical trials. How can it possibly be regarded as "promising"?

 

It could be because of the way this testing is done. I.e isolate every compound and test them one at a time. Maybe vitamin E needs to be given to our body with a dozen micronutrients that we don't know of right now.

 

 

And MAYBE the pope isn't catholic and earth is flat. It seems some people will NEVER stop following this vitamin E nonsense.

[Dorian Grey]

 

It's failed in prevention in four clinical trials. How can it possibly be regarded as "promising"?

 

It could be because of the way this testing is done. I.e isolate every compound and test them one at a time. Maybe vitamin E needs to be given to our body with a dozen micronutrients that we don't know of right now.

 

Or perhaps E only works in bodies that are not swamped with accumulated iron?  

 

The megadose of 2000 IU/day that still provided only a modest effect would seem to indicate "something" may have been antagonizing the effectiveness of E, which typically is adequate at one tenth the levels given in the study.  

 

What does E do?  Prevents oxidation of lipids...  What antagonizes E?  Iron!  What do oldsters accumulate as they age?  Iron.  What is universally found in excess in the brains of AD patients?  IRON!  

[Baten]

dl-alpha tocopherol = synthetic form of vitamin E (crude oil/petrolum production source)

- mirrored molecule of above

- cells can use it, but outcomes differ greatly

- implicated with increasing cancer risk greatly

- many have allergic reaction to it

- implicated with increasing risks of cardiovasular disease

- many studies showed it lowered lifespans by 20%

 

A bit of a thread resurrection, but many sports drinks / soda's have some vitamin E in them, most likely the synthetic form. Somewhere in between 5 to 15 IU. Would consuming up to 15IU of the synthetic form be particularly harmful ...?

 

I tried mailing the producer of these kinds of drinks about what kind of form the Vitamin E is, no answer of course.

[pamojja]

Would consuming up to 15IU of the synthetic form be particularly harmful ...?

 

Don't forget those studies reporting ill-effect usually tested single nutrients in high doses, without all the other required nutrients to make them work better or without ill-effects. Also, to make the harmful results look more significant, they generally state relative risk numbers, while in absolute numbers it's often less then 1%.

 

Therefore if you're eating a SAD (since you drink such unhealthy drinks you seem) it is a little risky. Personally don't think as much as eating that bad.

 

If you're eating a diet without industrially produced foods, even supplement all the other 8 isomers of vitamin E (which would get replaced with alpha-tocopherol, taken alone), I don't think much of a risk left with 15IUs only.
 

Edited by pamojja, 13 December 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[Mr.No]

The confusion is due to the differing study findings between the synthetic forms of vitamin E vs the natural forms of vitamin E.

 

The research studies lump them all together under one name of vitamin E. So when you hear it on the news of the new study of linking "bad thing" with vitamin E, always ask yourself which specific form of it was the study about. Because they fail to mention the specifics on the news.

 

 

d-alpha tocopherol = natural form of vitamin E (animal or plant source)

- powerful antioxident

- required in many cellular functions

- benefits heart, liver, brain

- lowers blood pressure

- helps lower cholesterol

- helps make blood thinner and flow better

- initial studies showed it extends lifespan in mice by up to 35%.

 

dl-alpha tocopherol = synthetic form of vitamin E (crude oil/petrolum production source)

- mirrored molecule of above

- cells can use it, but outcomes differ greatly

- implicated with increasing cancer risk greatly

- many have allergic reaction to it

- implicated with increasing risks of cardiovasular disease

- many studies showed it lowered lifespans by 20%

 

 

Basically if you were to look at all the studies done with vitamin E what you will see is that the synthetic and altered forms of vitamin E are exceptionally bad, and make you worse in terms of health. While the natural forms of vitamin E are exceptionally good for health and longevity.

 

So be careful and make sure to read ingredients list. If it doesnt exactly say "d-alpha tocopherol" assume its a synthetic form and steer clear. Also watch out for tricks played by the manufacturers. Example: "d-alpha tocopherol acetate" is not the natural form, its a synthetic. So to play on the confusion some manufacturers will give alternate names to their synthetic forms by using those names with the trailing acetates, succinates, acetyls, etc.

 

Some will go as far as hiding the synthetic forms in a generalized term of "mixed tocopherols" and "mixed tocotrienols". So its always best to go with a reputable source, and make sure its from a natural source and natural form of vitamin E only with no other synthetics.

 

I agree  http://www.greenmedi...opherol-acetate

[Kenbar]

The confusion is due to the differing study findings between the synthetic forms of vitamin E vs the natural forms of vitamin E.

 

The research studies lump them all together under one name of vitamin E. So when you hear it on the news of the new study of linking "bad thing" with vitamin E, always ask yourself which specific form of it was the study about. Because they fail to mention the specifics on the news.

 

 

d-alpha tocopherol = natural form of vitamin E (animal or plant source)

- powerful antioxident

- required in many cellular functions

- benefits heart, liver, brain

- lowers blood pressure

- helps lower cholesterol

- helps make blood thinner and flow better

- initial studies showed it extends lifespan in mice by up to 35%.

 

dl-alpha tocopherol = synthetic form of vitamin E (crude oil/petrolum production source)

- mirrored molecule of above

- cells can use it, but outcomes differ greatly

- implicated with increasing cancer risk greatly

- many have allergic reaction to it

- implicated with increasing risks of cardiovasular disease

- many studies showed it lowered lifespans by 20%

 

 

Basically if you were to look at all the studies done with vitamin E what you will see is that the synthetic and altered forms of vitamin E are exceptionally bad, and make you worse in terms of health. While the natural forms of vitamin E are exceptionally good for health and longevity.

 

So be careful and make sure to read ingredients list. If it doesnt exactly say "d-alpha tocopherol" assume its a synthetic form and steer clear. Also watch out for tricks played by the manufacturers. Example: "d-alpha tocopherol acetate" is not the natural form, its a synthetic. So to play on the confusion some manufacturers will give alternate names to their synthetic forms by using those names with the trailing acetates, succinates, acetyls, etc.

 

Some will go as far as hiding the synthetic forms in a generalized term of "mixed tocopherols" and "mixed tocotrienols". So its always best to go with a reputable source, and make sure its from a natural source and natural form of vitamin E only with no other synthetics.

 

 

Welp. Checked my bottle and it say's DI.......so I guess it's the garbage petroleum/oil based type. Back to Amazon to hunt down the natural ones...think they were givng me a slight headache too when I took more than 1 per day. Might have been why...my body maybe trying to let me know it was bad stuff.

[Dorian Grey]

I may be wrong, but all the synthetic E I've seen is "dry" form, tablets or powder in capsules.  

 

All the natural E I've seen is "gel-cap" oil suspension form.  

 

I've never heard of synthetic form mixed tocopherols, but I suppose it's possible they exist.  

 

All the natural forms I've seen say "Natural" on the front label, but always wise to check the ingredients on the back too.

[pamojja]

I may be wrong, but all the synthetic E I've seen is "dry" form, tablets or powder in capsules. 

 

In my first day of supplementing got some synthetic dl-alphatocopherol. It was in oil-base in soft gels too.
 

[Kenbar]

 

I may be wrong, but all the synthetic E I've seen is "dry" form, tablets or powder in capsules. 

 

In my first day of supplementing got some synthetic dl-alphatocopherol. It was in oil-base in soft gels too.
 

 

 

Yea, the "DI..." bottle I have is made by Kirkland and they are soft gel type.