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Omega 3 ::: EPA / DHA,,, Testing a high dosage.

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#1 knightly

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 12:51 PM


Hello,

 

I have been taking the same Omega 3 fish oil product for past 2 years, I take it every day. it costs €40 a month(x30) at the Pharmacies, but I bought it in BULK and its like 60-70% cheaper. I just have a lot of fish oil boxes...

 

 

Now, I am going to test to see what happens when I take 6grams of it... maybe 8 grams.

 

:)



#2 niner

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 01:08 PM

Is there some sort of condition that you're looking to treat, or are you just curious about the effects of a megadose?  Fish oil is not entirely benign at high dosage.



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#3 knightly

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 01:45 PM

Is there some sort of condition that you're looking to treat, or are you just curious about the effects of a megadose?  Fish oil is not entirely benign at high dosage.

 

Hello good Sir,

 

I am not testing it for any specific reason.



#4 SanjayK

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 03:44 PM

DO you have inflammation, joint pain, dry skin? It can help with that certainly. It's a noticeable effect if you are using a good quality fish oil.

#5 Duchykins

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:53 PM

Don't do it.
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#6 knightly

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 07:01 PM

Don't do it.

 

are you insane?
 


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#7 niner

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 07:59 PM

Don't do it.

 
are you insane?


Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Duchykins does. If you don't need it for some very good reason, megadosing fish oil is a bad idea. It has side effects. It's unlikely to be good for your long term health.

#8 gt35r

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

Mega dosing of fish oil, or any PUFA is not a good idea. Omega-3 are a type of PUFA which means that they have conjugated double bonds; ill save you the chemistry lesson and tell you that this promotes lipid oxidation. Your bodies main counter measure to fatty acid oxidation is Vitamin E but even that has its limits. 

 

Once a Fatty acid is incorporated into the membrane, unsaturated double bonds that are conjugated can end up being polymerized via an radical mechanism. If you consume a large volume of PUFA you may end up producing intra- and inter- cellular aggregates of oxidized fatty acid polymers. 

 

 



#9 pamojja

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 09:19 PM

 

Now, I am going to test to see what happens when I take 6grams of it... maybe 8 grams.

 

:)

 

 

How old are you?

 

I am not testing it for any specific reason.

 

If you're young and healthy probably nothing interesting will happen..

 

At Track Your Track Dr. Davis consistently advises to take 6 g/d of EPA/DHA content in the case of high Lp(a), a CAD risk factor otherwise difficult to control, because it dropped after 2-3 years in about 60% of users in his clinical experience. Didn't work for me, but oxLDL remained low - of course with all antioxidants taken. But since you don't test for any specific you wont know and most likely loose interest before anything serious happens, or run out of 'a lot of fish oil boxes....' ;)
 


Edited by pamojja, 29 May 2014 - 09:23 PM.


#10 knightly

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 10:27 PM

Hello folks,

 

Here is the product:
http://www.morepa.ie...pa_platinum.php

 

Any ideas? :)

 

thanks a lot you guys ....



#11 pamojja

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 10:37 PM

Here is the product:

 

Any ideas? :)

 

thanks a lot you guys ....

 

 

but I bought it in BULK and its like 60-70% cheaper

 

 

Price 60 softgels : 42,00 €

 

Either you're mad to pay such a high price - or more likely a spammer..



#12 Duchykins

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 11:15 PM


Don't do it.

 
are you insane?
 
With respect, I think you should ask yourself that question. You have no idea what's really going on with your biochemistry, you don't know if you are in any pre-conditions or are at risk for developing a serious condition where megadosing oils could push it over the edge. I don't know if your fish oil is high EPA like mine but if you overdo EPA the consequences will be far worse than overdoing DHA.



Take a gander at the data referenced in here

http://chriskresser....e-is-not-better



http://www.health.ha...oe-201307126467

There is little to no benefit of 3 or more grams of fish oil daily and much more room for harm to be done. It's not worth it if you have no diagnosis.

Edited by Duchykins, 29 May 2014 - 11:17 PM.


#13 joelcairo

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 12:15 AM

I don't think this is part of any longterm intervention. He just going to take 6-8 grams one time to see if he dies or not.

 

http://www.longecity...asting-2-years/

 



#14 gt35r

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 12:40 AM

I don't think this is part of any longterm intervention. He just going to take 6-8 grams one time to see if he dies or not.

 

http://www.longecity...asting-2-years/

 

 

So basically the guy is an idiot.


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#15 knightly

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:31 AM

 

I don't think this is part of any longterm intervention. He just going to take 6-8 grams one time to see if he dies or not.

 

http://www.longecity...asting-2-years/

 

 

So basically the guy is an idiot.

 

 

20528You_win_the_prize.jpg

 

 

please tell me why I am an idiot good Sir.

thank you.
 


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#16 mrnootropic

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

Just take between 1 and 3 grams a day..

There is no need for such a high dose of 6 Grams or more.

 

Nothing is going to happen when you take 6 grams!  Except a waste of Fish Oil.

Taking 6 grams is not going to have any more benefits than taking 3 grams.

 

If you don't have a condition that requires you to take High Doses, then there is no need.

Moderation is the key.. Such High doses can have health risks over a longer period of time, but taking one dose of 6 Grams is not going to do anything, but waste your fish oil, like i said.

 

Ohh, and BTW... Testing a High Dose.. Has already been tested of doses beyond 30 grams, by bodybuilders and other experimental people. There is no need.


Edited by Mr.Nootropic, 30 May 2014 - 10:55 AM.

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#17 pamojja

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 11:46 AM

 

 

So basically the guy is an idiot.

 

 

20528You_win_the_prize.jpg

 

 

please tell me why I am an idiot good Sir.

thank you.
 

 

Maybe because he can't perceive that there are other valid modes of reasoning, and - despite operating with such different modes in everyday life sufficiently successfully - such persons still do feel rejected by such hurting labels. In that case it would be lack of emotional intelligence why he told that without any empathy. But I can only speculate.. since I don't know both of you in person.

 

But then.., we all seem to lack in emotional intelligence. You by perceiving an other insane, an other perceiving you an idiot, and me speculating about you being mad.. :sad: or worse, a spammer.

 

However, I also think that's what the Internet is doing to us. Person to person we would be much more considerate and instantly adapt to a different mode of reasoning, most of the times.


Edited by pamojja, 30 May 2014 - 12:19 PM.

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#18 knightly

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 12:51 PM

 

 

 

So basically the guy is an idiot.

 

 

20528You_win_the_prize.jpg

 

 

please tell me why I am an idiot good Sir.

thank you.
 

 

Maybe because he can't perceive that there are other valid modes of reasoning, and - despite operating with such different modes in everyday life sufficiently successfully - such persons still do feel rejected by such hurting labels. In that case it would be lack of emotional intelligence why he told that without any empathy. But I can only speculate.. since I don't know both of you in person.

 

But then.., we all seem to lack in emotional intelligence. You by perceiving an other insane, an other perceiving you an idiot, and me speculating about you being mad.. :sad: or worse, a spammer.

 

However, I also think that's what the Internet is doing to us. Person to person we would be much more considerate and instantly adapt to a different mode of reasoning, most of the times.

 

 

If you think that I have "lacking emotional intelligence" , then I will try to formulate my words differently for you,

what I was trying to say is how he won a prize for calling me a retard, and I don't want to start any long texts such as"flame wars,etc" over the net, and this is the real possibility, maybe not in your case but it needed to be discussed.


Edited by knightly, 30 May 2014 - 12:53 PM.

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#19 pamojja

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 01:20 PM

If you think that I have "lacking emotional intelligence" , then I will try to formulate my words differently for you,

what I was trying to say is how he won a prize for calling me a retard, and I don't want to start any long texts such as"flame wars,etc" over the net, and this is the real possibility, maybe not in your case but it needed to be discussed.

 

As I said, since not knowing either of you in person all I could was speculate. Where each of us would be able to rectify for oneself. And by sharing with others, coming closer to where such derogatory language originates.

 

I disagree anyone of us using such derogatory terms should be priced on top of it, but it might as well give incentives for further misunderstandings.

 

Sorry if I offended you by speculating we all lack EI. But I'm not as visual that a picture would suffice to clarify these misunderstandings, as do discussions with appreciation to me.
 


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#20 knightly

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 03:18 PM

 

If you think that I have "lacking emotional intelligence" , then I will try to formulate my words differently for you,

what I was trying to say is how he won a prize for calling me a retard, and I don't want to start any long texts such as"flame wars,etc" over the net, and this is the real possibility, maybe not in your case but it needed to be discussed.

 

As I said, since not knowing either of you in person all I could was speculate. Where each of us would be able to rectify for oneself. And by sharing with others, coming closer to where such derogatory language originates.

 

I disagree anyone of us using such derogatory terms should be priced on top of it, but it might as well give incentives for further misunderstandings.

 

Sorry if I offended you by speculating we all lack EI. But I'm not as visual that a picture would suffice to clarify these misunderstandings, as do discussions with appreciation to me.
 

 

 

drum roll please. there will be a prize give out...

FgkefHM.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AND here you go pamojja

xIH6fwb.jpg

 

 

for your great postings !!! ...  well done pamojja, you deserve it, and as I can tell from the picture, you are very happy with your prize

good on to you :) and keep up the GREAT posts !!!


Edited by knightly, 30 May 2014 - 03:24 PM.

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#21 scottknl

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 08:09 PM

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3064584/figure/pone-0017967-g001/

 

shows a u shaped graph of ALA consumption vs stroke risk.  The happy place is in the middle.

 

Other research is not as conclusive, but why take the risk of a permanent brain damage from stroke by going away from the midpoint?

 

 

 



#22 Darryl

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:04 PM

If lipid oxidation from dietary PUFAs were the central event in atherosclerosis, then there wouldn't be a consistent pattern of PUFA for SFA substitutions reducing CVD risk. Is lipid oxidation an issue? Perhaps, but it appears secondary to endothelial inflammation or high LDL.

 

The mechanistic studies on EPA/DHA support the idea that its the ratio to arachidonic acid that matters, more so than the absolute amounts. One can achieve this with fish oil megadoses, but its perhaps wiser just to take a smaller supplement while cutting out high arachidonic acid foods and high linoleic acid vegetable oils (safflower, corn, cottonseed, soybean, sunflower).

 

A budget fish oil is less likely to be refined to reduce persistant organic pollutant content, and this, as far as I can tell, is the major issue with knightly's fish oil megadose plan. POPs impair insulin sensitivity, and keeping insulin sensitivity high is a critical element of any longevity plan. 

 

Turunen, A. W., Jula, A., Suominen, A. L., Männistö, S., Marniemi, J., Kiviranta, H., ... & Verkasalo, P. K. (2013). Fish consumption, omega-3 fatty acids, and environmental contaminants in relation to low-grade inflammation and early atherosclerosis. Environmental research, 120, 43-54. 
Serum triglyceride decreased across omega-3 PUFA tertiles in both sexes and studies. Insulin resistance, C-reactive protein, tumour necrosis factor a, and interleukin 6 decreased across omega-3 PUFA tertiles among the Health 2000 survey participants. Among the Fishermen study men, insulin resistance and arterial stiffness indicated by b-stiffness index tended to increase and the RR estimate for carotid artery plaque tended to decrease across tertiles of PCDD/FþPCB and MeHg. The hypothesised favourable effect on insulin sensitivity and arterial elasticity was suggested to be counteracted by high exposure to environmental contaminants but the effect on plaque prevalence appeared not to be harmful.
 
Ruzzin, J., Petersen, R., Meugnier, E., Madsen, L., Lock, E. J., Lillefosse, H., ... & Frøyland, L. (2010). Persistent organic pollutant exposure leads to insulin resistance syndrome. Environmental health perspectives, 118(4), 465.
Adult male rats exposed to crude, but not refined, salmon oil developed insulin resistance, abdominal obesity, and hepatosteatosis. The contribution of persistant organic pollutants to insulin resistance was confirmed in cultured adipocytes where POPs, especially organochlorine pesticides, led to robust inhibition of insulin action. Moreover, POPs induced down-regulation of insulin-induced gene-1 (Insig-1) and Lpin1, two master regulators of lipid homeostasis.

 

 

 


Edited by Darryl, 30 May 2014 - 09:05 PM.


#23 gt35r

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:25 PM

I am calling you an idiot because of the link that someone posted on this thread of you (  http://www.longecity...asting-2-years/  )

 


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#24 gt35r

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:32 PM

If lipid oxidation from dietary PUFAs were the central event in atherosclerosis, then there wouldn't be a consistent pattern of PUFA for SFA substitutions reducing CVD risk. Is lipid oxidation an issue? Perhaps, but it appears secondary to endothelial inflammation or high LDL.

 

The mechanistic studies on EPA/DHA support the idea that its the ratio to arachidonic acid that matters, more so than the absolute amounts. One can achieve this with fish oil megadoses, but its perhaps wiser just to take a smaller supplement while cutting out high arachidonic acid foods and high linoleic acid vegetable oils (safflower, corn, cottonseed, soybean, sunflower).

 

A budget fish oil is less likely to be refined to reduce persistant organic pollutant content, and this, as far as I can tell, is the major issue with knightly's fish oil megadose plan. POPs impair insulin sensitivity, and keeping insulin sensitivity high is a critical element of any longevity plan. 

 

Turunen, A. W., Jula, A., Suominen, A. L., Männistö, S., Marniemi, J., Kiviranta, H., ... & Verkasalo, P. K. (2013). Fish consumption, omega-3 fatty acids, and environmental contaminants in relation to low-grade inflammation and early atherosclerosis. Environmental research, 120, 43-54. 
Serum triglyceride decreased across omega-3 PUFA tertiles in both sexes and studies. Insulin resistance, C-reactive protein, tumour necrosis factor a, and interleukin 6 decreased across omega-3 PUFA tertiles among the Health 2000 survey participants. Among the Fishermen study men, insulin resistance and arterial stiffness indicated by b-stiffness index tended to increase and the RR estimate for carotid artery plaque tended to decrease across tertiles of PCDD/FþPCB and MeHg. The hypothesised favourable effect on insulin sensitivity and arterial elasticity was suggested to be counteracted by high exposure to environmental contaminants but the effect on plaque prevalence appeared not to be harmful.
 
Ruzzin, J., Petersen, R., Meugnier, E., Madsen, L., Lock, E. J., Lillefosse, H., ... & Frøyland, L. (2010). Persistent organic pollutant exposure leads to insulin resistance syndrome. Environmental health perspectives, 118(4), 465.
Adult male rats exposed to crude, but not refined, salmon oil developed insulin resistance, abdominal obesity, and hepatosteatosis. The contribution of persistant organic pollutants to insulin resistance was confirmed in cultured adipocytes where POPs, especially organochlorine pesticides, led to robust inhibition of insulin action. Moreover, POPs induced down-regulation of insulin-induced gene-1 (Insig-1) and Lpin1, two master regulators of lipid homeostasis.

 

 

 

 

I definitely understand what yo are saying but the problem is Saturated Fats carry their own issue; they tend to cause membrane rigidity even in the absence of polymerization. SFA tend to aggregate more tightly and reduce membrane fluidity. 

 

To me it seems like MUFA would be better than PUFA or SFA; part of atherosclerosis is the formation of foam cells which are packed to the gills with oxidized fatty acids. I do not now if SFA vs PUFA would more likely cause foam cells. 



#25 knightly

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:08 PM

I am calling you an idiot because of the link that someone posted on this thread of you (  http://www.longecity...asting-2-years/  )

 

 

ohh and im a idiot because i drank that much coffee//???


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#26 gt35r

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 10:11 PM

Just read that post that you made. You can honestly tell me it doesn't sound idiotic to you?

 

It's not because you drank an absurd amount of coffee, but is also because you went on to make a a non-sensical post that is barely comprehensible. 

 

You are also an idiot because you keep spamming that same picture on different threads.


Edited by gt35r, 30 May 2014 - 10:18 PM.

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#27 Darryl

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:21 AM

I do not now if SFA vs PUFA would more likely cause foam cells. 

 

da Silva Afonso, M., Castilho, G., Lavrador, M. S. F., Passarelli, M., Nakandakare, E. R., Lottenberg, S. A., & Lottenberg, A. M. (2013). The impact of dietary fatty acids on macrophage cholesterol homeostasisThe Journal of nutritional biochemistry.

Although saturated fatty acids (SAFAs) do not influence cholesterol efflux, they trigger endoplasmic reticulum stress, which culminates in increased lectin-like oxidized LDL (oxLDL) receptor (LOX1) expression and, consequently, oxLDL uptake, leading to apoptosis. Unsaturated fatty acids prevent most SAFAs-mediated deleterious effects and are generally associated with reduced cholesterol efflux, although α-linolenic acid increases cholesterol export.

 



#28 gt35r

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:36 AM

 

I do not now if SFA vs PUFA would more likely cause foam cells. 

 

da Silva Afonso, M., Castilho, G., Lavrador, M. S. F., Passarelli, M., Nakandakare, E. R., Lottenberg, S. A., & Lottenberg, A. M. (2013). The impact of dietary fatty acids on macrophage cholesterol homeostasisThe Journal of nutritional biochemistry.

Although saturated fatty acids (SAFAs) do not influence cholesterol efflux, they trigger endoplasmic reticulum stress, which culminates in increased lectin-like oxidized LDL (oxLDL) receptor (LOX1) expression and, consequently, oxLDL uptake, leading to apoptosis. Unsaturated fatty acids prevent most SAFAs-mediated deleterious effects and are generally associated with reduced cholesterol efflux, although α-linolenic acid increases cholesterol export.

 

 

 

Thank you.


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#29 niner

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:11 AM

If lipid oxidation from dietary PUFAs were the central event in atherosclerosis, then there wouldn't be a consistent pattern of PUFA for SFA substitutions reducing CVD risk. Is lipid oxidation an issue? Perhaps, but it appears secondary to endothelial inflammation or high LDL.

 

The mechanistic studies on EPA/DHA support the idea that its the ratio to arachidonic acid that matters, more so than the absolute amounts. One can achieve this with fish oil megadoses, but its perhaps wiser just to take a smaller supplement while cutting out high arachidonic acid foods and high linoleic acid vegetable oils (safflower, corn, cottonseed, soybean, sunflower).

 

A budget fish oil is less likely to be refined to reduce persistant organic pollutant content, and this, as far as I can tell, is the major issue with knightly's fish oil megadose plan. POPs impair insulin sensitivity, and keeping insulin sensitivity high is a critical element of any longevity plan.

 

I'm not sure that it's safe to equate fish oil with "conventional"  PUFAs, which have 2 or 3 double bonds.  EPA and DHA have 5 and 6 double bonds, respectively, which is a significant difference.  The propensity toward oxidation increases exponentially with the number of double bonds.  Some people put EPA and DHA in their own fatty acid category, "HUFA", for Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acid, in order to accentuate this difference.  The PUFAs used in the SFA/PUFA CVD substitution studies were mostly dienes, I suspect. 

 

A few years back, Consumers Report did a comparison of a large number of commercial fish oils, and none of them had a significant amount of POPs or methyl mercury.  Essentially all commercial fish oil is vacuum distilled, and this seems to take care of the contaminants.  It's probably possible to find some oils that are unrefined.  Probably they will be the ones claiming to be healthier because they're more natural...


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#30 Duchykins

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:34 AM

I forgot to mention that I believe oil supplements and oilseeds are some of the few things that should *generally* not be purchased in bulk because of their vulnerability to oxidation, even with refrigeration.





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