6 replies to this topic

[Doktor]

Hi everyone,

Background of my interest / use of harmalas:

About 4.5 - 5 months ago, I stopped taking cipralex (escitalopram at 10mg daily); I found that it was doing absolutely nothing good for me, even dulling my emotions to an unacceptable degree. I have long been interested in MAOI's as an alternative depression treatment because of their clinically superior efficiacy, their indication for atypical depression (which I fit the bill for 150%), and the fact that they are also found in plants that have historically been consumed - ritualistically and medicinally - for 1000's of years, often times directly for their mood improving power.

This is how I came to be interested in both Syrian Rue as well as Caapi. Surprisingly, there are not many people who have dosed these plants (or extracted harmine/harmaline from them) specifically for depression/anxiety, but the reports I did find seemed to skew toward a positive effect... very positive. The only forum where people really seemed to actively investigate these plants for this purpose is dmt-nexus, which makes sense since they use caapi/rue already in their ayahuasca brews.

Anyway, I've been using an extraction I did myself of syrian rue seeds daily for my mood (with each dose equating to approx 0.6 - 1 gram of seeds), and it has been helping FAR MORE then ANY pharmaceutical option I have tried in the past... I am honestly totally blown away by this. I actually noticed that people on this forum have tried methylene blue for its maoi effects... Harmaline / Harmine have RIMA effects that are verrrrry similar to methylene blue (on paper), and could be investigated as a viable, natural alternative. I might additionally add that harmalas have been consumed for 1000's of years (with a pretty great safety profile), whereas methylene blue is a very - relatively - recent discovery, albeit seemingly safe as well.

Now, onto the discussion that pertains to the title of this thread:

I am prescribed Vyvanse for adult ADD/ADHD (30mg), which I take daily for now. For the past week, I have been taking it concurrently with my Syrian Rue extract tea, and have noticed absolutely zero negative effects... I even measured my BP a few times, and it was low/normal - literally exactly the same as it always is.

I have read many posts online to the tune of "MAOIs + stims = heartattack!", or just simply "MAOIs ARE DANGEROUS!", and I have to say, although I agree that there are many serious drug interactions, dopaminergics don't seem to be one of them. In fact, I would be surprised if you can find me a single post that describes a serious interaction with a RIMA MAOI and a dopaminergic drug.

As far as I am aware:

MAO-A mainly metabolizes serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine (to an extent). MAO-B mainly metabolizes dopamine, phenethylamine, and other trace amines... and this is precisely why I don't think RIMA MAOI's are very dangerous with dopaminergics, like my daily Vyvanse dose. Even though I am inhibiting MAO-A, MAO-B is still left mostly untouched, and should be able to take care of the dopamine from the Vyvanse. Also, since vyvanse is essentially dexamphetamine, it should really only touch dopamine. If I was taking MDMA (because of the serotonin it releases), or even Adderall (because of it's levo-amphetamine isomer), I might expect some danger mixing with a RIMA MAOI... however I don't understand how Dopamine alone can be much of a problem, and have not experienced any issues myself.

So, in summary, I want to know (with a rational argument either way) whether or not you think mixing a low-moderate dose of a dopaminergic agent with an MAO-A is contraindicated? I don't believe it is personally, and believe instead that MANY people online seem to lump ANY type of MAOI in with irreversible, "old-school" MAOIs like Nardil, and without even looking at the facts and making an independent, informed decision... even though the pharmacokinetics of RIMAs are totally different then straight up, non-selective MAOIs.

I guess it would also be interesting to hear from anyone who has experience with Harmalas at low doses for depression (or whatever else) as well!
 

[Doktor]

Bumpity Bump.... took another gram of essentially ground syrian rue today with my 30mg of Vyvanse, and I'm still not spazing out uncontrollably.

Also worth noting... I can't find a single negative report of mixing moclobemide and Vyvanse/Dexedrine/Dex-Amp either, and this combination would essentially be the same as what I am doing. There are plenty of negative reports mixing with MDMA (which is completely retarded), but none for dopamine-only meds.... this only seems to further my hypothesis.

[Zenfood]

Hey!

I got very excited when I read this. I have noticed that Tribulus (which contains harmine) makes me very happy and energetic. I used to take ritalin (got prescription), but switched it to CILTEP, because it was quite taxing to my body (adrenal fatigue). I don't take any stimulants at the moment and would love to learn more from your experience.

 

I was on citalopram as a teenager, but it didn't do much. I have tried everything there is basically (everything from amitriptyline, yohimbine, modafinil, racetams, longvida curcumin, adaptogens, etc.) and I think that CILTEP is here to stay. However it doesn't give me increased motivation or libido. I can focus, but I have the typical depressive symptoms (being sedentary and having trouble to get started with things - yes, I procrastinate a lot)

 

Now I'm experiencing with saponins: Gynostemma, Tribulus and Maca. I used to take ginseng in my early days as well, but it is too stimulating. 

Going to try the Happy Stack as well (Uridine, CDP Choline, DHA).

 

I did a gene test on 23andme.com and I had a lot defects, but most importantly:

MAO-A R297R +/+ = Low activity MAO-A

 

Going to try methylene blue in the future. I know that Joe from Selfhacked amongst other people praise it.

 

[Area-1255]

Hey!

I got very excited when I read this. I have noticed that Tribulus (which contains harmine) makes me very happy and energetic. I used to take ritalin (got prescription), but switched it to CILTEP, because it was quite taxing to my body (adrenal fatigue). I don't take any stimulants at the moment and would love to learn more from your experience.

 

I was on citalopram as a teenager, but it didn't do much. I have tried everything there is basically (everything from amitriptyline, yohimbine, modafinil, racetams, longvida curcumin, adaptogens, etc.) and I think that CILTEP is here to stay. However it doesn't give me increased motivation or libido. I can focus, but I have the typical depressive symptoms (being sedentary and having trouble to get started with things - yes, I procrastinate a lot)

 

Now I'm experiencing with saponins: Gynostemma, Tribulus and Maca. I used to take ginseng in my early days as well, but it is too stimulating. 

Going to try the Happy Stack as well (Uridine, CDP Choline, DHA).

 

I did a gene test on 23andme.com and I had a lot defects, but most importantly:

MAO-A R297R +/+ = Low activity MAO-A

 

Going to try methylene blue in the future. I know that Joe from Selfhacked amongst other people praise it.

 

I don't believe that's the same allele as the warrior gene - but it could be a similar form as both seem to result in low MAO activity.

http://area1255.blog...ntricacies.html

 

In regards to the thread title OP, I've studied this EXTENSIVELY.

 

If you look at interactions, one could safely inhibit MAO-A and MAO-B, while consuming Adderall or another amphetamine, and maximizing dopamine through other pathways - it can be very dangerous - but it depends on your own chemistry. 

Namely how much dopamine is converting into norepinephrine in the first place, you may have high Nitric Oxide and / or histamine OP -which explains why you have less side-effects from these chemicals.  { Read about Histamine Imbalances }

 

Keep in mind Dopamine does NOT raise blood pressure, nor cause paranoia, nor any measurable negative syndrome - until it converts into norepinephrine - the bringer of fight and flight and radical thought process. On the contrary, dopamine generally lowers blood pressure, and does the opposite of adrenaline - dopamine itself increases trust by increasing oxytocin - and thus is incapable of producing paranoia without norepinephrine.

 

Just an example of the many misconceptions in the science world.

 

Here's an article I wrote called "Re-Igniting the Search for the Dopaminergic "Pot of Gold " 

http://area1255.blog...-finishing.html

 

You will likely be interested, as will others.

 

 

 

Edited by Area-1255, 26 August 2014 - 01:05 AM.

[hav]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4303763/

[playground]

After doing some research on this, i discovered that 'harmane' (not to be confused with 'harmine' ) is

(1) neurotoxic

(2) associated with the physical tremor of certain dementias (like Parkinson's)

(3) present in Syrian Rue (along with Harmine and Harmaline)

 

So my question is:  Where can one purchase pure harmine powder ?

 

If anyone know, please let me know.

I would be very grateful :-)

 

 

[playground]

After doing some research on this, i discovered that 'harmane' (not to be confused with 'harmine' ) is

(1) neurotoxic

(2) associated with the physical tremor of certain dementias (like Parkinson's)

(3) present in Syrian Rue (along with Harmine and Harmaline)

 

So my question is:  Where can one purchase pure harmine powder ?

 

If anyone knows, please let me know.

I would be very grateful :-)

 

To elucidate,  i'm asking,  where can we buy pure (99+%) powder.

That is free of harmane (which is neurotoxic)
 

If anyone knows, please let me know.

I would be very grateful :-)