19 replies to this topic

[Ellipticality]

Hi, 

 

I had an idea the other day and the only thing I could think of to best describe what it would look like it is the dragonballz medical machine. http://dragonball.wi...Medical_Machine

 

I was envisioning a sleep tank similar to this, basically a liquid filled cylinder that you could sleep in upright. Assuming you could make drowning impossible, could there be any feasible benefits to something like this? I was thinking it might have potential for antiaging as you wont be exposed to any environmental pollutants, your skin wont have to resist gravity, and you could infuse the liquids with nutrients. Furthermore I would imagine that you would have better circulation in this, and It would kind of be like being in the womb, which might trigger some interesting bodily reactions, possibly regenative?

 

At the very least it would probably be a pretty good sleep! Any idea what type of liquid might work best in such a thing?

[ADVANCESSSS]

What about the DNA liquid? Or some other liquid...

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Hehe no neither you nor the DragonBallZ folks are unique in thinking of such a device. I remember many years ago as a teen thinking of some way to isolate myself as I'm a light sleeper. Of course when one day dreams of such things we add all kinds of features. I thought of slowly regulating body temp, breathing, aromatherapy, cognitive re-enforcement hidden within white noise when not going for complete sensory deprivation (hey back then subliminal suggestions was still big in the movies), embryonic fluid-like liquid, etc. Of course not knowing what if anything good would happen with one. When I started looking up info (back then physically at the Library) I stumbled upon info on "Isolation Tanks". They've been around for 60 years or so in various configurations. Ultimately they ended up for the most part utilizing just enough water, lots of epsom salts (like 500+ lbs), filters, etc. to help guarantee you stay afloat with mouth and nose out of the water. I've always said I would build one or buy one (they aren't cheap and don't have any of the higher tech stuff) but I never did. You can rent access to them by the hour in some spas. If you ever watched the Marvel movie with Ben Affleck "Daredevil" he slept in one.

 

 

Edit:spelling errors

Edited by gwgaston, 08 June 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[ADVANCESSSS]

The liquid could be something special or bio molocules or something or DNA sounds right, to add on missing dna to be young again and so to make the body start to repair importantly the neuron cells or make perminent neuron cells or start adding new ones again...Other than that the liquid or things would have to get into the body and the head probably to do this...

Edited by ADVANCE, 08 June 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[niner]

The liquid could be something special or bio molocules or something or DNA sounds right, to add on missing dna to be young again and so to make the body start to repair importantly the neuron cells or make perminent neuron cells or start adding new ones again...Other than that the liquid or things would have to get into the body and the head probably to do this...

 

Your last sentence hits the mark, and therein lies the rub.  You can't deliver biomolecules through the skin, because it's designed to keep things like that out.  A sensory deprivation tank is an interesting thing on its own merits.  I knew a guy who built one in his dorm room in college.  It sprung a leak, and a small fortune in Epsom Salts went running everywhere.  I felt bad for him, but it was kind of funny the way he flipped out over it.

[adamh]

Being immersed in water would cause the skin to wrinkle right away. Its not good to have your skin wet for long periods. It would have to be a very special liquid or solution of something that would not have those problems. It is intriguing, I would buy one if it worked. It would just be a tank, should not cost much, maintenance would be replacing the liquid every so often when it gets dirty. I wonder if we would tend to urinate in such an environment? Temp would have to be controlled, for sure. Waterbed redux.

[Aurel]

Its not good to have your skin wet for long periods

 

 

I second that. But you could wear a form waterproof nightwear. So you wouldnt have to invent a whole new liquid.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

So you guys didn't  even look into isolation/floatation tanks did you??

 

"In a float tank filled with Epsom salts, there’s no “prune skin” effect that you get when you lie in the bathtub for a long time."

 

http://floutings.lv/en/faqs/

[adamh]

Gwgaston, thats probably true but at a minimum you would absorb a lot of magnesium and long term soaking is bound to have an effect on the skin. Rather than put on a special outfit, you could have it built into the unit so that you would step into the top of the tank and a bladder would fit snugly around you. You could have sheets lining it and change them like a bed.

 

I want one, I'm an insomniac and that might be the magic bullet. At a minimum it would be much more comfortable and eliminate the problems of a water bed which include not getting enough support for the back. I used a water bed years ago and it gave me huge backaches after a while. I'm not sure how great it would be to sleep in an upright position but I think you could get used to it. It would require a heater and sensor to keep the liquid at a correct temp, perhaps 75f. I don't think anyone makes them yet.

 

One drawback is you would not be able to perspire so it might become uncomfortable. Also, it would put pressure on your chest making it harder to breath. Perhaps tubes lining the bladder that put out air? If your water level was only up to your chest there would not be a lot of pressure. Who wants to make one? The service in the link is direct contact with the solution, I would want some separation. 50 euros per session? thats robbery.

[ceridwen]

I thought Epsom Salts contain a lot of aluminium
 

[adamh]

Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. After reading more about floatation tanks, formerly called isolation tanks, it seems the idea is to float horizontally rather than vertically as I imagined. That would eliminate the pressure of the solution on your legs but under the usual system you will be in direct contact with the water and sessions are usually no more than 1 or 2 hours. I was thinking about something you could sleep in every night but you would need a barrier of some sort between your skin and the solution for long periods like that.

 

Water beds tried to use this principal with an enclosed bladder which you could sink into but you still had the sensation of pressure against your body. It was more comfortable than a regular bed but it lead to back problems with unequal support. A waterproof suit would allow you to float in the water without coming in direct contact but the suit will be too uncomfortable I suspect even if you have some sort of forced air ventilation. It seems these tanks are only good for short sessions but feedback indicates people like it a lot. It relieves stress very well. There is a spa in my town that offers it, I may try it out. 

 

If you had a big enough bathtub you could put solution in and try it that way on the cheap. A regular tub will work but they are typically less than 5' long so your knees will stick up limiting the experience. I may try that first, $10 worth of epsom should do it, the stuff is cheap in bulk.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Well glad you finally decided to read something. Some people sleep all night in their private isolation tanks BTW, Next you should probably look up absorption of magnesium sulphate through the skin and you'll find just a few, mixed, studies on it. Even where absorption is claimed it was not very significant.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I may try that first, $10 worth of epsom should do it, the stuff is cheap in bulk.

 

Think that will do it eh? OK this was a fun thread that actually was helpful to remind me to finish a project I started on a long time ago... but its just ridiculous now. I'm out of it. Please carry on.
 

[adamh]

 

I may try that first, $10 worth of epsom should do it, the stuff is cheap in bulk.

 

Think that will do it eh? OK this was a fun thread that actually was helpful to remind me to finish a project I started on a long time ago... but its just ridiculous now. I'm out of it. Please carry on.
 

 

 

Alrighty... http://www.walmart.c...0587230&veh=sem

 

Here is a link to walmart, 4 lb of epsom for $2.86 so 16 lb would cost you just over $10. I should think that would be plenty for a bathtub, might be more than enough. I didn't bother looking to commercial chemical suppliers who might have it cheaper in bulk, just go down to wm and pick it up.

[niner]

I thought Epsom Salts contain a lot of aluminium

 

 

What makes you think that?

 

 

Alrighty... http://www.walmart.c...0587230&veh=sem

 

Here is a link to walmart, 4 lb of epsom for $2.86 so 16 lb would cost you just over $10. I should think that would be plenty for a bathtub, might be more than enough. I didn't bother looking to commercial chemical suppliers who might have it cheaper in bulk, just go down to wm and pick it up.

 

 

The commercial tanks use hundreds of pounds- really a lot.  A bath tub is smaller in volume, but still, 50 gallons of water is over 400 pounds, just for the weight of the pure water, so it would take 40 pounds of salt just to raise the density of 50 gallons of water by 10%.  Without doing a bunch of research, I think you're going to need more- maybe thirty bucks worth?  That would probably get you a taste of it.   Post some pics...

[adamh]

OK, I was just taking a wild guess at the amount needed. Here is a link for 50 lb of epsom salts for $22. Its used in agriculture apparently. So, a bit more than the off the top of my head estimate of $10 or so but not too expensive. You could even go nuts and get two bags. A bit pricey if you dump it out each day and redo.  

 

http://www.7springsf...psom-salt-50lb/

 

Maintenance would be an issue too, I think they used peroxide for an antiseptic, the other option would be to boil the solution but hard to do in a tub. Possibly UV light? Then you have corrosion issues if there are any metal fixtures. If you used a vertical position you would not need as much bouyancy. I would think your chest would be lighter than legs due to air in the lungs. It would be like floating in the ocean which is another option.  Your head almost stays out of the water floating in the sea and sea water is only 3.5% salt so using epsom you might get by with 5% or so, saving you money on the salt. You might need some sort of headrest since you don't want your head drooping into the solution. Vertical might be the way to go. Maybe a stainless tank or fiberglass. A net could hold your head up with minimal discomfort. They may make tanks for holding liquids in that shape.

[niner]

These guys are using .525kg/liter, or almost five pounds MgSO4 per gallon.  A bathtub might hold 40-80 gallons, depending on size.  50-60 is probably more typical.  If you want to match the density of the professional flotation tanks, then you'd need about 200 pounds of mag sulfate.

[adamh]

According to a solubility table I looked at http://en.wikipedia....olubility_table epsom is only soluble in water up to roughly 35gm per 100gm water. 5 lb per gallon would be considerably higher than that since a gallon of water weighs about 8 lb. What I've read says that they want to raise the density of water to about 1.25 ideally which would mean adding about 25% of the weight of the water in salts. I do see that they give a higher figure on that webpage but that may be for advertising purposes.

 

According to this source http://www.aqua-calc...uman-blank-body the density of the human body averages just slightly above that of water or about 1.01 gm/cubic centimeter. People will float in seawater which has only about 3.5% salt in it so the question becomes how bouyant do you want to become? I think the reason they use so much salts in those floatation tanks is because they want people to float high and have their head and face naturally be above the water line. If you are willing to accept a piece of styrofoam giving a slight lift to your head, you should be fine with much lower bouyancy like around 1.05 to 1.10. You will be weightless and the styrofoam under your head can be gently fitted so you may not feel it at all.

 

Using those lower levels of epsom salt concentration, as little as $10 worth of salts should work, buying it in bulk. If you want to float high in the water and not have to fool with anything holding your head up, then spring for two to four times that much. I would have no problem with simply having a scrap of styrofoam under my head which should do the job and cost about nothing.

 

So, we have reduced the cost to as little as $10 to $20 in salts and all you would need is a big enough tub. A bigger tub would need more salts but with 50 lb of epsom costing $22 it should not be too expensive. The tub itself will be more costly and the space to put it. Thats why I was thinking a vertical cylindrical tank might be as good and much more convenient. You could easily find space for that whereas a large tub takes up a lot of space. Just wear a little collar of styrofoam and you are good to go.

[niner]

According to a solubility table I looked at http://en.wikipedia....olubility_table epsom is only soluble in water up to roughly 35gm per 100gm water. 5 lb per gallon would be considerably higher than that since a gallon of water weighs about 8 lb. What I've read says that they want to raise the density of water to about 1.25 ideally which would mean adding about 25% of the weight of the water in salts. I do see that they give a higher figure on that webpage but that may be for advertising purposes.

 

The solubility number in the wikipedia table is for anhydrous MgSO4.  The heptahydrate, which is what Epsom salt is, has a much higher solubility- these guys say 710g/liter at 20C, while this authoritative-looking paper says 1.2kg/liter at 25C (at zero ethanol concentration).  The solubility increases strongly with temperature, and flotation tanks are maintained at skin temperature, about 35C,  so I don't at all doubt that 525g/liter is possible.  Whether or not they really do that, or are just saying so in order to make it sound impressive is still a question, but I suspect that they're being honest about it since the salt is so cheap and getting caught in a flagrant lie is bad for business.    They talk about inducing a feeling of weightlessness with the high density solution.  I'm not sure how dense the solution would really need to be in order to get that effect.  People talk about the Dead Sea being really different from swimming in the ocean; the Dead Sea has a density of 1.24 g/cc.  Mydlarz and Jones give the density of the 1200g/l MgSO4.7H2O solution as 1.3g/cc.  Extrapolating from their zero-ethanol curve, it looks like the density of the commercial flotation tank with 525g/l would be about 1.18 g/cc.

 

It takes more mass of salt than you'd think in order to get to the density you want, because the volume of the solution changes as you add the salt.  These volume changes vary depending on the ions involved, and are also non-linear, so they pretty much have to be determined experimentally.

Edited by niner, 16 June 2014 - 03:39 AM.

[adamh]

Yeah, no doubt about that. But, the question remains is it needed to have much higher than about 1.01 density since that makes you weightless? More solution density just means you float higher. I would think that for the sensation of weightlessness and relaxation, all you need is enough bouyancy to keep your head above water and that can be helped with a scrap of polystyrene behind your head. Seawater should just about do the job and its only about 1.03 gm/cc.

 

Would you feel more relaxed with a super high density liquid? What about mercury? You would hardly sink into it with a density of 13.53 gm/cc. I think you would feel like you are laying on a soft surface rather than floating. I think floating in a solution that is not so dense would feel better and since the highest possible density is not the best, what would be ideal? I'm thinking just dense enough so that you don't have to be concerned about holding your head up. If you are going to float vertically, as I was speculating about, the float for your head might be the best way, otherwise you might have to stay with horizontal floating. You could test it by using a float for your head and going to the ocean, if you don't live too far away. 

 

I always found it very relaxing to snorkle and just float in the water. A life jacket is another way to do it but then you have the sensation of wearing something. It would let you get an idea without spending $50 for  an hour in a spa or thousands for a special tub in your home. If you have received shipments with those plastic air pouches for packing material, use them. I think I would try that first, if I like it well enough, I might go to the spa and see if its worth the extra money.

 

Those water tanks are not cheap either. It would cost around $400 for one big enough but it would not take as much space as a tub. You would need ladders to get in and out. Use syphon hoses to drain it and bring in a hose from a faucet to fill it. It would take around 400 gallons to fill it so the epsom would not be super cheap, depending on what density you wanted. I think 50 lb would make you bouyant enough that your head would come up, still might need a floatation device to be comfortable. 

 

My next project is to go to the beach on a quiet day with some sort of float and see how nice it is. You would not have total isolation but you could experience the floating and see how it is.