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Another Sleep Success: Vitamin A for insomnia

retinol vitamin a sleep insomnia slow wave nrem stage 3 delta

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#31 Ames

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:23 AM


Vitamin D was life changing for me, helped my mood, body comp, chronic pain so much, etc. I do agree it may hinder sleep quality or perhaps amount but for me, I actually welcomed this a bit, since otherwise I could just sleep all day.

 

 

It would be asy to get into a pointless back and forth over contrast in individual experience and its relative value.

 

In other words, I'm not looking to debate the value of vitamin D. If you percieve that it works for you in your preferred regimen, why wouldn't you take it?

 

But that won't change my experience with it, nor my caution in regard to it that is founded on what I know.

 

In fact, I'd caution anyone over a certain age in regard to regular immunosuppressant supplementation that isn't at least only cyclical.

 

I find reading and listing anecdotal experience here to be valuable.

 

I don't find debating supplement use based on anecdotal experience to be valuable. If it is valuable, then I will offer this:

 

My grandfather, who never smoked a cigarrette in his life but who supplemented with "lung protective" vitamin D for thirty years died of lung cancer. The doctor who (over prescribed) him the vitamin is now dying of prostate cancer. Causative? Who knows? Correlative? In these single subject experiments. 

 

If I had a nickel for every over hyped supplement on this board that I have found to have low to no substantial positive effect, especially over the long term, but had a high risk of side effects (many realized), I might have enough money to buy a bottle of water.  

 

However, that doesn't mean that people with systems who are at differing stages of stress or age will realize the same noticeable side effects.

 

Depending on who they are, some individuals might come back to write half-manic multi-paragraph reviews (I'm not referring to you) based on a very minor, and I would venture often short lived, positive effect of a supplement. This board attracts those types.

 

Positive endorsements here are unreliable in terms of supplement value. Mine included. The more detail and the less emotion they provide the better. But positive endorsements are nevertheless unrelaible.

 

Which is why I find that anecdotes can have cautionary value and instructive value (which is the spirit in which I offer mine), but little value in terms of  predictable positive benefit.

 

Everyone has to try any individual substance on their own, ideally on its own, and whether or not it will work for them seems to be unpredictable.

 

In this thread are two such detailed descriptions of my separate experiences. Hopefully, they will be instructive for someone. 

 

I certainly affirmed the value of Vitamin D's use, for me, in conjunction with retinyl palmitate earlier in this thread. 

 

Though, my overall experience with Vitamin D remains. Moreover, that experience also happens to parallel what I percieve to be conflicting, inconclusive, and certainly over-hyped research (given the fact that its optimal use isn't conclusive) on Vitamin D. 

 

Vitamin D is necessary. My issue with it is that it tends to be used like a sledge hammer and without the clearly required nuance of prescription that is not limited to Vitamin K.

 

The conclusions of the below study align with my percieved experience with Vitamin D:

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/8137721

 

1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 and pancreatic beta-cell function: vitamin D receptors, gene expression, and insulin secretion.

 

in in vitro studies 1,25-(OH)2D3 at concentrations of 10(-10)-10(-7) M was consistently found to inhibit insulin secretion from islets of vitamin D-replete rats

 

 

 

The above study that shows insulin inhibition by Vitamin D is never cited in Vitamin D promotional literature.

 

What is often paraphrased in a misleading manner are the studies that show that Vitamin D (as a steroid) can help prevent Diabetes Type I. Though, Vitamin D accomplishes this feat specifically through its immunospuppressive action.That last part is always left out of the promotion, or at best "immunosuppression" is replaced with the misleading "immunomodulation". In fact, many steroids have immunosuppressive action.

 

In contrast, the research on Vitamin A, which is is described by the below quoted article, corroborates my experience in regard to its reversal of Vitamin D's negative effects on sugar metabolism. 

 

https://www.scienced...70613111649.htm

 

The role of vitamin A in diabetes

 

A new study suggests that the vitamin improves the insulin producing β-cell´s function.

In order to study the role of the vitamin in cases of diabetes, the researchers worked with insulin cells from mice and non-diabetic and type 2 diabetic donors. By partially blocking the vitamin A receptor and challenging the cells with sugar, they could see that the cells' ability to secrete insulin deteriorated.

"We saw close to a 30 per cent reduction," says Albert Salehi, adding that impaired cell survival and insulin secretion are key causes of type 2 diabetes.

The same tendency could be seen when comparing insulin cells from type 2 diabetic donors. Cells from patients with type 2 diabetes were less capable of insulin secretion compared with cells from people without diabetes.

 

The researchers also saw that the beta-cells' resistance to inflammation decreases in the absence of vitamin A. 

 

 

Be careful to take vitamin K, that sleepiness you’re mentioning could well be some issue with calcium regulation.

 

 

My opinion is that Vitamin K supplemantion is reckless for the obvious reason. I have some anecdotal experience to back that opinion up. But, again, that experience is most valuable to me. My implied anecdote can only be cautionary to someone else. 

 

As for vitamin A-some others have noted as well-I feel horrible at any dose.

 

 

As I noted in post 7, I had a good response to Vitamin A. Its side effect was relieved by taking it in a 5:1 ratio with Vitamin D. Also, again, not looking for a debate. What I'm looking to do is post my experience. If you think that posting a detailed account of your experience is valuable, and it is pertinent to the thread topic, then we would likely all benefit. I'm just not keying into the value of posting a brief version of it as a response to my experience. 

 

It’s good for an immediate increase in weird emotional symptoms for me, and some bone pain/joint clicking. This is because preformed Vitamin A is unregulated by the body, it just goes straight into the bloodstream and starts to do its thing. I do much better on beta carotene, whose conversion is limited.

 

 

I don't get those symptoms, and in contrast with your experience realize no noticecable positive effect (prophylactic or otherwise) from carotenoids at any dose and over an relatively long period of time. Retinyl Palmitate does provide that, in contrast. Eating liver products seems to as well, but in a much gentler fashion. I will provide my recent experience later below.


Edited by golgi1, 24 February 2020 - 06:16 AM.


#32 Ames

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 06:31 AM

This post is an update of post 29 in this thread, in which I wrote:

 

I just ran a trial with Vitamin D at  individual 5,000 iu doses on each of two consecutive days. Which I had never before done.

 

I noticed three things:

 

1. An immediate increase in sleepiness (on the same day as the first dose). I was prior able to stay up to 2 or 3 in the morning without a problem. Now I have a real issue making to 11pm, and have been nodding off in the afternoon if I sit still for too long.

 

2. A lasting decrease in sleep quality. My sleep has been consistently shallow, with no trend back toward where it was. If I want normal sleep, I have to take sleep aids, which used to work too well (overly sedated sleep), now just to realize what I consider to be normal sleep.

 

3. A noticeale decrease in sugar / carbohydrate sensitivity. I have to eat more to feel as satisfied / energized by carbohydrates. I've gained weight since the trial, after being on a six month weight loss trend (losing 60 lbs in total). 

 

My trial conclusion is that Vitamin D feels like a hormone, which works against insulin sensitivity at the 5,000 iu per day dose.

 

I purchased calves liverwurst from the local butcher in an effort to counter-act these side effects with animal-product vitamin A. I'll consume it over a few days and give it that time to work. If it doesn't, I'll resort to taking retinyl palmitate.

 

Method to correct aforementioned side effects from Vitamin D supplementation: consumption of 1/2 lb of liverwurst on two consecutive days in order to consume animal sourced retinoids.  

 

Results: I realized amelioration of the shallow sleep and metabolic symptoms that resulted from excess Vitamin D (and that had been persistent for at least two weeks). The amelioration of the side effects occured during the first day of consuming liver.

 

Other comments: the effect was much gentler than when taking a Retinyl Palmitate supplement in the amount of 5k to 25k iu (see post #7 in this thread).

 

I appreciated that subtler corrective effect from the liverwurst, but also prefer the harder hitting Retnyl Palmitate supplement to some degree. Though, this may be my psychological (or otherwise physically informed) preference in the context of the prior persistent negative side effects from Vitamin D that I was trying to resolve. 


Edited by golgi1, 24 February 2020 - 06:36 AM.


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#33 experimenting

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 02:31 PM

I appreciate your experiences. Through discussions like this I think we’ll both benefit.

I may well suffer from some kind of autoimmune, which is why d3 is uniquely game changing for me. Like I said Vit A is horrible for me at any dose. I wonder why.

Why do you advise against high dose K?

#34 Ames

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:59 AM

Hey, it's interesting you mentioned Vit D too. This is years later from my original post but i rebooted this vitamin a attempt, I think the dose is lower, its like 200% normal values.  It seems the vitamin a still helps with my sleep meds. I did find that if I take vitamin d, my sleep is actually much worse. Which sucks because I have both vitamin d deficiency and depression, and it's required i take it. But I stopped taking it for the past few weeks because I slept worse every time i took it. 

i do find that interesting that I am seeing opposite effects between vitamin d and vitamin a. But I know I shouldn't be that surprised since there is some paper stuff saying vit d interferes with sleep,... though I'm not really sure how strong the link is.

 

My experience comports with yours.

 

I am not a regular consumer of vitamin D. I take it as needed, traditionally when sick with something viral that is affecting my throat or lungs.

 

This year, I took it twice. I can't remember why I took it the first time. The second time (which was recent) was for an slight ocular migraine symptom. Taking it for this symptom was an experiment (it worked to relieve the symptom, suprisingly).

 

What sticks out about both instances of taking Vitamin D, this year, is that my sleep markedly deteriorated in the following week - both times.

 

The first time, earlier in this year, was a 5000 iu dose of Vitamin D. Which is higher for me than usual. I generally like to stay around 1000 iu or less. Immediately I realized sleep quality issues, but also sugar metablism issues. I felt an increase in insulin resistance.

 

After several days of this, I consumed an amount of liver (per my prior post). This worked to ameliorate the symptoms.

 

Upon consuming the liver, both the sleep quality and the sugar metabolism issues completely reverted.

 

The second time I took Vitamin D this year (recently), I took 1000 iu.

 

I didn't notice sugar metabolism issues.

 

I did notice sleep quality issues, but they came on slowly and continued to build. It was so gradual that I didn't realize what was occurring and connect it to the prior vitamin D consumption until about five days in.

 

After I realized what was likely occuring, I took around 1250 iu of Retiinyl Palmitate. This immediately reverted the sleep quality issue.

 

Recently, i was dealing with some anxiety due to a personal issue. Thiamine is one of the things I use to deal with anxiety. This time, I went to Thiamine. I was taking around one gram per day. After a few days, it predictably muted the anxiety. However, I believe that it was responsible for instigating some mild depression (if it wasn't the Vitamin D, which I don't believe it to have been). The depression seems to have been neutralized by the Vitamin A, for whatever that is worth.


Edited by golgi1, 09 July 2020 - 05:52 AM.


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#35 Ames

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 05:37 AM

I appreciate your experiences. Through discussions like this I think we’ll both benefit.

I may well suffer from some kind of autoimmune, which is why d3 is uniquely game changing for me. Like I said Vit A is horrible for me at any dose. I wonder why.

Why do you advise against high dose K?

 

The possibility of blood over-thickening /  clots.

 

It is widely claimed that this isn't an issue, but my personal experience contradicts that claim. ymmv, but I offer that caution is warranted.


Edited by golgi1, 09 July 2020 - 05:42 AM.






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