10 replies to this topic

[Jason30]

Hi,

 

I have read that Milk Thistle slows fase 1 of the liver and that this is only recommend for people where Fase 1 is to fast.

Now i might have a slowed Fase 1 of the Liver (the symptoms are there).

 

I wonder if someone can tell me more about this, because i would like to test Milk Thistle out but i don't want to get any more problems with my liver.

[Dorian Grey]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable on "Pathological Detoxification", which is what an imbalance of CYP-450 enzyme (phase 1) vs glutathione (phase 2) metabolism is supposed to be all about.  

 

I'm a fast metabolizer (CYP450) and have tried several forms of milk thistle a number of times without impressive results for alcohol related fatty liver.  

 

I did get impressive results from SAM-e, Curcumin, & PPC / polyenylphosphatidylcholine (brand names PhosChol & Essentialle), and I believe these truly are the liver supplement superstars.  If iron is at all elevated (ferritin into triple digits) as mine was, IP6 may also give impressive results.  

 

Slow CYP450 metabolism shouldn't cause much of a problem compared to fast unless you are taking medication that is metabolized through this pathway which can cause these meds to build up and become toxic when CYP450 is slow.  Pathological Metabolism typically results in fast CYP450 folks when glutithione becomes overwhelmed by byproducts from rapid CYP450 processes.  

 

Phase 1 CYP450 metabolism normally ramps up on its own when exposure to toxins metabolized through this pathway occur.  I'm curious as to why you are chronically low.  

[niner]

Jason30, what are these symptoms that suggest you have slowed phase 1 metabolism?  I've never heard of such a thing as a general diagnosis.  Occasionally people will be told that they are fast or slow metabolizers of particular substrates, like caffeine, but that's due to a variant form of one out of hundreds of xenobiotic metabolism enzymes, and isn't a general thing. 

[Jason30]

Thank you for the reactions.

 

I have read that caffeine could be a measure to determine if you are in fase 1 slow or fast. So when people drink alot of coffee and don't have problems with it then that would be a fast fase 1.

I have read also that getting drunk very fast is a measure for a slow fase 1.

So i when i read that then i am more in a slow fase 1 then a fast fase 1.

 

Synesthesia, i take pain killers for my restless legs/fibromyalgia every night before sleep (these are codeïne and sometimes lyrica). This is going on for the last 3 years.I also take every day a allergy antihistaminica.

My pain in the legs is one problem, the other problem is my histamine intolerance. This gives me a lot of brain fog. So i have read about under methylation and about the liver (methylation is a part of the liver). I don't know for sure but i think my problem is somewhere in the liver (or stomach -> enzymes).

 

So my first goal is to take action for the histamine problem.  So i am thinking about supplements for the liver/under methylation.

 

I have bought p5p (vitamin b6) and SAM-e, magnesia/calcium (not started yet). And i was thinking about other liver supplements such as milk thistle, glutathione and PPC.

 

But to be honest, i have no idea wich supplements to take, because of the slow or fast fase 1. And i also don't want to get any (more) problems with my liver by taking the wrong supplements.

If anyone has advice about this i'm glad to hear!

 

[Dorian Grey]

Oral glutathione is very poorly absorbed/utilized, hence the preformed precursor SAM-e is the better way to go.  The p5p looks interesting if histamine is your issue.

 

I would avoid starting multiple different supps at the same time, and would take the time to do a series of isolated studies, trying a single supplement for 30 days, then going off it and trying the next.   When you find what works in this manner, you can then try mixing them to see if you get an  increased benefit from the combinations.  It might be better to trial calcium and magnesium separately also as one may be helpful, the other not so much.  Both mag and cal are also notorious for GI side effects, and it might be nice if you found out which one was helping so you didn't have to take both.  

 

The SAM-e and p5p appear to me as the potential winners in your particular situation.  

 

I can personally vouch for SAM-e and PPC regarding liver function, but then I'm a fast phase 1 metabolizer...  Coffee with dinner, then sound asleep 4 hours later.  I got very swift results from SAM-e; the PPC took about 30 days before I decided it really was helping.   Don't know if these will help you, but I doubt they would do any harm.  

 

Never had good results with milk thistle...  Don't know why but I always wound up with GI side effects that overwhelmed any benefit I might have gotten had I been able to take it for extended periods.  

Edited by synesthesia, 21 June 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[Jason30]

Thanks alot for your answer and advice Synesthesia, much appreciated.

I am gonna start with SAM-e, ppc and p5p.

[Jason30]

A question about ordering PPC or phosphatidylcholine.

I have read that high doses phosphatidylcholine is equal to PPC, what do you think about that?

I order from Iherb, is there a supplement available with phosphatidylcholine which is equal to PhosChol (with 900mg of purified PPC) ?

http://www.iherb.com...ine&x=0&y=0#p=1

[Dorian Grey]

From what I've read, the magic stuff in PPC is "Dilinoleoylphosphatidylcholine" or DLPC for short (thank heavens!).  Regular phosphatidylcholine contains "some" of this, but PPC is 40 to 50% DLPC which is substantially higher (10 to 30 times higher) than most common PC.  

 

I believe there is only one manufacturer of PPC in the world in Germany, and as PPC ain't cheap, price is important.  PPC also contains a polyunsaturated fraction which may decay over time/heat/oxidation so freshness is also important.  

 

The only result for polyenylphosphatidylcholing that pops up on iherb is Life Extension's "HepatoPro" 

http://www.iherb.com...=1&sr=null&ic=1

 

I'm a bit paranoid about freshness and believe Nutrasal's "PhosChol" PPC probably moves the fastest.  I also get a good price on the 100 count bottle.  

http://shop.nutrasal...tegory_s/22.htm

 

Sanofi's "Essentiale Forte" also contains PPC and is widely available outside the US, but the price is usually pretty steep.  

Edited by synesthesia, 03 July 2014 - 09:10 PM.

[niner]

Oral glutathione is very poorly absorbed/utilized, hence the preformed precursor SAM-e is the better way to go.  The p5p looks interesting if histamine is your issue.

 

Glutathione doesn't have much to do with phase 1 or phase 2 metabolism- you might be thinking of glucuronic acid.   Phase 1 is where a poorly water-soluble foreign molecule is oxidized by (usually) one of the many P450 enzymes that we have.  These are found not only in the liver, but many other places, particularly the gut.  The oxidation reaction performed by these enzymes typically leaves a hydroxyl group on the molecule, which improves its solubility in water to some extent, but mostly serves as a "handle" for the phase 2 enzymes.  They attach to the hydroxyl one of several solubilizing groups, typically a glucuronidate or a sulfate.  These make the foreign molecule very water soluble, such that it can easily be excreted by the kidneys.

 

SAM-e production can be depressed in chronic liver disease, and is sometimes supplemented in such patients.  However, there is no evidence that Jason30 has liver disease, so I doubt he needs it for that reason.

 

Jason30, I don't think you have anything wrong with your liver, and I doubt that you have methylation problems.  You're taking an antihistamine for allergy, and have brain fog- it's not clear if the brain fog is from the allergy (this is certainly possible) or if it is from the antihistamine.  Classic antihistamines can make you very drowsy, while modern "non-drowsy" antihistamines don't have that effect.  If the brain fog is from the allergy, you should talk to an allergist regarding better treatments, and also to diagnose exactly what you are allergic to, so you can avoid it if possible.  I really recommend that you try this route first before trying to randomly medicate yourself with supplements.

 

The whole fast/slow phase 1 thing is a complete red herring.  It has no bearing on the use of milk thistle, and no bearing on your symptoms.  It only relates to one or possibly a few out of a very large family of enzymes.

[Jason30]

Thanks again Synesthesia.

 

Niner, i am aware of the fact that antihistamines can you make you drowsy and tired. However, my symptoms are like exhausted, not thinking clearly, heaviness and concentration problems.

I have a big problem with histamine. For example: When i walk 10 minutes in the summer with pollen then i get the symptoms after the 10 minutes directly. When i walk the same round of 10 minutes in the winter then i don't get the symptoms. And antihistamine doesn't help here.

When i take beverages which are high in histamine, then i get the symptoms. A sofa from dust = the symptoms.

The fact is that i have a high histamine level.

Antihistamines doesn't help for the symptoms.

In the summer i have so many symptoms such as brain fog and alot of pain in the legs (fibromyalgia/restless legs).

When i go to the sea for a few days then my brain fog and all symptoms are away.

In the summer when it rains alot, i am the guy which is happy because i feel alot better

The fact is that something happens with me when i come in contact with pollen/dust that doesn't fit in the general allergy symptoms.

 

I have been under treatment for years by a allergist, but he says my symptoms are not coming from my allergies (hay fever and dust mites).

So i have been sent to home. My symptoms are the reason that i cannot work and cannot even enjoy my daughter. So i am passionate for a solution!

And to be honest, i don't know exactly what the cause is for my symptoms (yet). But i do know that doing nothing is not helping me.

I have read about the liver and the enzymes to abort the histamine. And also read about under-methylation. So i am looking that direction.

If you or anyone else has any ideas then i'm glad to hear it!

Edited by Jason30, 09 July 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Just Kelly]

This is an old thread but if anyone happens to come across it (as I did through a google search) with regards to histamine intolerance some things that help: holy basil, spirulina, curcumin, low histamine diet, DAO enzymes (some people have histamine intolerance from gut problems- not making enough of the enzyme that breaks down histamine)
There's a low histamine group on Facebook that is very helpful. Sorry this is not directly answering the op