5 replies to this topic

[Complexology]

Dear friends,

 

 

 

I use 3.75mg mirtazapine 2 hours before bed, to sleep early. Plus I use magnesium for better REM sleep.

 

I sleep 9 to 10,5 hours, and my cognitive function is amazing. Greater processing power, I can process huge amount of information.

 

I am a workaholic, and do high demanded senior executive manager work, so I need to do high-level thinking, creative thinking and so on. Make multiple connections.

 

And make qualitative decisions for big companies.

 

When I get out of bed, I can work 10 hours high level cognitive functioning instead of 8 hours with 6 to 8 hours sleep. 

 

Rem sleep for improved functioning what do you want more.

Edited by Complexology, 29 June 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[noos]

Do you take mirtazapine daily?
What is the dose for depression?
I find intense REM not refreshing, like it disturbs deep sleep.

Edit: Mirtazapine is typically prescribed in
doses 15 mg, 30 mg and 45 mg.

Edited by noos, 29 June 2014 - 03:44 PM.

[lourdaud]

Don't forget that mirtazapine will enhance working memory through antagonism at alpha 2 adrenergic receptors, particularly at lower doses.

[check]

Very good to hear that mirtazapine and magnesium work well for you. Sleep regulation and sleep states are really interesting components of functioning and mental health that are hard to pin down. Clearly there are odd things going on Sleep studies are both expensive and disruptive to normal patterns, (ask anyone with OSA/CSA about getting used to CPAP masks, or the whole EEG setup), and general monitoring tends to have a bit of fuzziness.

Going straight for more REM sleep = better isn't so clear considering a lot of factors. The blunt example is the use of MAO inhibitors, which obliterate REM sleep in the initial period of using them.

This study kind of echoes noos's experience of disturbing REM sleep, albeit in anxious depression. [Free text]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2847051/

While this study says something a little bit different, with the REM sleep having positive effects. [Free text]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3237718/

It seems almost as if it is the type of REM sleep you get, and the overall cycle of sleep stages that may be important. (As Lourdad mentioned, the adrenergic component of mirtazapine may be part of the picture for the quality of sleep you get, noting the adrenergic disruption as in the above link.)   

Sleep deprivation, which provides interesting effects for a variety of conditions, also disrupts REM. [FT]

http://onlinelibrary...10.00886.x/full

And again, sleep stage stability and the type of cycle seems important. [FT]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2958224/


NREM sleep is complex as well, especially in its interaction with medications and REM sleep. This study mentions medications in depression. Small study.  

http://onlinelibrary...11.00914.x/full

["In conclusion, our study supports earlier findings of different roles of SWS and REM sleep in promoting diverse cognitive functions. Our results suggest that, in line with other studies, there are no negative effects of a REM sleep decrease by antidepressants on declarative or procedural memory performance."]

REM sleep behavior disorder definitely points to REM abnormalities causing cognitive problems, though where the fault lies is hard to say. "Bad" REM sleep is clearly a problem.

 

But yeah, sleep is strange. Hopefully as we develop less intrusive sensors and mechanisms we'll be able to pin down some of the components in greater detail and get cognition up and in place. I'm just going to work on getting more in general in the meantime...

[Neuroplastic]

Remember that for every person who gets a cognitive boost, there are probably more who quit mirtazapine because it put their brain in a fog (due most likely to H1 action)

 

How people respond to antihistamines (mirtazapine is primarily a super-antihistamine - despite what the marketing says) is highly variable.  For example, promethazine makes me feel wonderful the next day, whereas my wife took it once and could barely function the next day.

 

I think a big driver of this is slow wave sleep, not REM sleep.  Mirtazapine gives a great boost to slow wave sleep.  However once your brain has had enough slow wave sleep, you spend longer in REM and lighter stages.  Therefore my theory is that mirtazapine and other antihistamines are helpful if you NEED more slow wave sleep and make you foggier if you have had enough slow wave sleep.

 

Anyway, that's my crackpot theory...

[adamh]

I think it depends a lot on dose. The OP is using 3.75mg per dose, which is much less than the recommended dose. I've been using this stuff and found that half of that dose knocked me out just as much as 3.75 which is 1/8 of a 30mg tab. I've found that 1/16 will do the job and even half of that seems to work. I don't think its just antihistamine activity going on, otherwise it would be more dose dependent and taper off a lot on smaller doses. Big pharma wants people to buy it frequently and advises doctors to prescribe 15 to 30mg for sleep.