16 replies to this topic

[medicineman]

so, how likely will it be to obtain this anytime in the near future?

[tolerant]

I thought about creating this thread in the Mental Health subforum, because norketamine is an anti-depressant, not a nootropic. But if this is to be the norketamine thread, then I will move all the relevant content from this thread where I have been discussing it into the current thread just to start off the discussion.

1. What is the correct name/CAS for Hydroxynorketamine? Is it (2S,6S)-hydroxynorketamine? I will request quotes for some of these substances from a local lab.

2. Is there anybody here with enough knowledge of chemistry to have a look at this patent together with the enclosed paper (titled "(2S,6S)-hydroxynorketamine.pdf") and determine the definite structure of hydroxynorketamine that would have to be synthesised? I am particularly confused that the paper identifies the (2S, 6S) version, yet the patent (which was filed by authors of the paper) focuses on the (2R, 6R) version.

3. (contributed by the member knockout_mice)

http://journals.lww....ine_and.26.aspx
 

In the current study, (2S,6S)-hydroxynorketamine was used instead of (2R,6R)-hydroxynorketamine or the racemic mixture, a decision based on data indicating that this isomer was the most potent of the three compounds in the suppression of intracellular D-serine levels (unpublished data from preliminary in vitro study obtained following previously described protocol14 provided by Irving W. Wainer, Ph.D., D.H.C., Baltimore, Maryland, August 2013) and its availability in our laboratory.

Attached Files

•  (2S,6S)-hydroxynorketamine.pdf   1.46MB   2 downloads

Edited by tolerant, 20 July 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[tolerant]

OK, I just noted that the papers posted by myself and knockout_mice are the same, so that just takes it back to the question posed in point 2 above. With regular ketamine, I know that there is the S isomer and the R isomer, and it's to do with how the molecule is oriented in 3D space, There are also what are called "racemic" mixtures which contain both types of ketamine. You can dig up studies that will say that either isomer is more therapeutic/produces less side effects, so the difference is probably not that significant.

 

With hydroxynorketamine, there are 2 sets of numbers coupled with letters in the brackets. I don't know what the significance of that is, but the authors seems to choose in their patent a type of hydroxynorketamine as their flagship which is different to that identified in the study. I may be mistaken, and I stand to be corrected. The study was published after the patent filing, but one would assume that the experiments for the study were completed before the filing. 

 

Furthermore, there can be mounted an argument that metabolites of drugs produced by the human body are not patentable, because they are naturally occurring processes. I will look further into this in due course if required, but now I ask someone knowledgeable to explain the differences between the two metabolites and identify the correct structure of each.

Edited by tolerant, 20 July 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[tolerant]

OK, please ignore the above post. I figured it all out and have requested a quote.

[tolerant]

The only thing I still don't get with thiS notation is things like (2S,6S;2R,6R)-HNK. Does the semi-colon mean that the two racemic mixtures are present together, or does it mean a racemic mixture of racemic mixtures? Or something else entirely?

[typ3z3r0]

Isn't norketamine going to be illegal for you to import into Australia because of analogue legislation?

 

Commonwealth/federal legislation definition

 

 

 

             (1)  For the purposes of this Part, a substance is a drug analogue of a listed controlled drug, or a listed border controlled drug, if the substance is any of the following in relation to the listed drug (or in relation to a primary analogue of the listed drug), however the substance is obtained:

                     a)  one of the following (a primary analogue ):

                              (i)  a stereoisomer;

                             (ii)  a structural isomer having the same constituent groups;

                            (iii)  an alkaloid;

                     b)  a structural modification obtained by the addition of one or more of the following groups:

                              (i)  alkoxy, cyclic diether, acyl, acyloxy, mono-amino or dialkylamino groups with up to 6 carbon atoms in any alkyl residue;

                             (ii)  alkyl, alkenyl or alkynyl groups with up to 6 carbon atoms in the group, where the group is attached to oxygen (for example, an ester or an ether group), nitrogen, sulphur or carbon;

                            (iii)  halogen, hydroxy, nitro or amino groups;

                     c)  a structural modification obtained in one or more of the following ways:

                              (i)  by the replacement of up to 2 carbocyclic or heterocyclic ring structures with different carbocyclic or heterocyclic ring structures;

                             (ii)  by the addition of hydrogen atoms to one or more unsaturated bonds;

                            (iii)  by the replacement of one or more of the groups specified in paragraph (b) with another such group or groups;

                            (iv)  by the conversion of a carboxyl or an ester group into an amide group;

                     d)  any other homologue, analogue, chemical derivative or substance substantially similar in chemical structure.

             (2)  However, a drug analogue does not include a substance that is itself a listed controlled drug or a listed border controlled drug.

 

 

NSW legislation definition

 

 

Any substance that is an analogue of a drug prescribed in this Schedule is not separately specified in this Schedule and is, in relation to the drug, any of the following:(a) a structural isomer having the same constituent groups as the drug,(b) a structural modification obtained in one or more of the following ways:(i) the replacement of up to 2 carbocyclic or heterocyclic ring structures with different carbocyclic or heterocyclic ring structures,(ii) the addition of hydrogen atoms to 1 or more unsaturated bonds,(iii) the addition of 1 or more of the following groups having up to 6 carbon atoms in any alkyl residue, namely, alkoxy, cyclic diether, acyl, acyloxy, monoalkylamino and dialkylamino groups,(iv) the addition of 1 or more of the following groups having up to 6 carbon atoms in the group and being attached to oxygen, namely, alkyl, alkenyl and alkynyl groups (for example, ester groups and ether groups),(v) the addition of 1 or more of the following groups having up to 6 carbon atoms in the group and being attached to nitrogen, sulphur or carbon, namely, alkyl, alkenyl and alkynyl groups,(vi) the addition of 1 or more of the following groups, namely, halogen, hydroxy, nitro and amino groups,(vii) the replacement of 1 or more of the groups specified in subparagraphs (iii)-(vi) with 1 or more other groups so specified,(viii) the conversion of a carboxyl or an ester group into an amide group.

 

Edited by typ3z3r0, 20 July 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[tolerant]

First of all, can I say, that if you don't have a legal background, you research skills impress me greatly 

 

I am roughly aware of this legislation, but have not examined it in relation to HNK. Looking at what you posted, I'm not sure whether HNK would fall into any of the definitions, other than maybe the catch-all definition found in 1(d). From memory, there is also a broader definition, prohibiting drugs that have the same psychotropic effect, although I may be confusing different pieces of legislation here. But even that would not include HNK, because it is designed specifically to avoid the psychotropic effects of K.

 

In any case, if the HNK were to be synthesised domestically in Australia, this legislation will not apply. 

[Milkyway]

Would I be able to join and would it be considered o.k./legal to get it sent to the states?

[medicineman]

we didn't arrange a buy yet. we are gauging interest and possibly chasing quotes.

[tolerant]

It's a difficult one. Depending on the legislation of each particular country, it may be legal/illegal to import and/or export it and/or legal/illegal to possess it, without a special license anyway.

[Milkyway]

I am interested if I can confirm it would not be a scheduled substance.

[protoject]

same, but very unlikely

[tolerant]

I am interested if I can confirm it would not be a scheduled substance.

 

 

same, but very unlikely

 

Are you guys saying you wouldn't take a scheduled substance to improve your health just because it's scheduled and legally you're not allowed to take it?

[medicineman]

I don't care. if it's made, I'll get it mailed to whichever (western/liberal) country and collect it myself while on vacation wherever that place is

[Milkyway]

I desparately want to function and feel better.  I don't want to get into trouble. So it would be great if I could take it and confirm it wasn't scheduled.

[protoject]

That's a loaded question tolerant. The consensus around here is that we do not involve ourselves with any sort of illegal trade because people can end up having dire consequences for doing such illegal things. Personally I can't answer your question ................ I think if anyone were at a point of desperation with no other option then morally it's right (unless morally someone else is just promising them a panacea that has no benefit, besides making money off the ill person).. doesn't mean I'm going to encourage illegal activities on this forum.

But again it will depend on where the person lives. I don't forseeably see this as being legal in canada, where I live. That is, it will probably fall along the line of "quasi legal". if of course some local company somehow was legally selling it to any individual without repurcussion I'd probably consider. Hmm. Get better or go to prison...

Also , the idea of norketamine enhancing your health is great, but if it doesn't then you've just put yourself at unneccessary risk. Of course if it does work then the government is just plain wrong and people need to fight to have it legalized. Personally I'm about legalization of drugs but I'm not gonna mess with the matrix you know.......

Edited by protoject, 23 July 2014 - 11:23 PM.

[medicineman]

That's a loaded question tolerant. The consensus around here is that we do not involve ourselves with any sort of illegal trade because people can end up having dire consequences for doing such illegal things. Personally I can't answer your question ................ I think if anyone were at a point of desperation with no other option then morally it's right (unless morally someone else is just promising them a panacea that has no benefit, besides making money off the ill person).. doesn't mean I'm going to encourage illegal activities on this forum.

But again it will depend on where the person lives. I don't forseeably see this as being legal in canada, where I live. That is, it will probably fall along the line of "quasi legal". if of course some local company somehow was legally selling it to any individual without repurcussion I'd probably consider. Hmm. Get better or go to prison...

Also , the idea of norketamine enhancing your health is great, but if it doesn't then you've just put yourself at unneccessary risk. Of course if it does work then the government is just plain wrong and people need to fight to have it legalized. Personally I'm about legalization of drugs but I'm not gonna mess with the matrix you know.......

agreed