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What are the Road Blocks to Affordable NR?

nicotinamide riboside cost

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#1 Phoenicis

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:24 PM


Can anyone provide any insights into why nicotinamide riboside is so incredibly expensive? Is it because of restrictive patents, a lack of competition? Is there any end in sight to these extreme prices? Looking at nicotinic acid costs about $5 for 100 x 250mg capsules whereas NR costs about $47 for 30 x 250mg. I've actually read on another thread that the prices were raised to this level recently, following the recent articles published about NAD+ decline with age. Fact is that NR is helpful for more than just aging, it can be used for things like neuroprotection and I find the restrictive marketing of this compound somewhat self-defeating. Taking higher doses like 1.5g / day seems impossible at the current price (not that I'm advising anyone to do this).


Edited by Phoenicis, 20 July 2014 - 05:29 PM.

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#2 Primal

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:34 PM

Hopefully some chinese suppliers will jump in soon, will disregard patents if needed :ph34r: , and will produce a very pure and clean product 



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#3 niner

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:49 PM

Well, good luck with that... The problem of course, is patents.  Chromadex has bought up all the relevant IP, as far as I can see, and they intend to make money off the deal.    One thing about NR is that it probably doesn't benefit young people much if at all, so the burden of high prices will fall on older people who are more likely to be able to afford it.    Patents are supposed to compensate inventors for the effort and cost that went into development of the invention.  In this case, the research was done at a university, and there's a pretty good chance that it was publicly funded.  Chromadex just bought the patents from the university.  I wonder where that patent money ended up?  I'm not sure that this is exactly how the system should work...

 

Patents expire 20 years after filing, so we should be able to predict when the price will get more reasonable. 


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#4 Phoenicis

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:22 PM

Scandalous, I presume this must be a process patent? How is this any different than charging insane prices for something like vitamin C? I mean more or less we have just identified that humans are essentially deficient in a form of  vitamin b3. The government should step in and require fortification of food with it, this is what was done for nicotinamide in the 1930s to deal with the widespead pellegra outbreak.


Edited by Phoenicis, 20 July 2014 - 09:27 PM.

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#5 Phoenicis

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:35 PM

I am personally boycotting NR and will use nicotinic acid instead. I will not put money into this product until it becomes affordable to everyone. NR may have some advantages, but NA will most likely get the job done. The sad thing is that I feel NA should also be getting way more attention than it currently is. There are good studies, but alot of the information we have on NA actually comes from the work of dedicated physicians like Dr Abram Hoffer. The NAD+ precursor properties of NA have been used to treat schizophrenia and infectious diseases like TB for decades. But now we are meant to pay 30 x more for something patentable? Many drugs based on niacin were simply not preferable because of side effects, I think that this fact along with the flush effect is why not more attention is being given to NA.


Edited by Phoenicis, 20 July 2014 - 09:54 PM.

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#6 niner

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

Scandalous, I presume this must be a process patent? How is this any different than charging insane prices for something like vitamin C? I mean more or less we have just identified that humans are essentially deficient in a form of  vitamin b3. The government should step in and require fortification of food with it, this is what was done for nicotinamide in the 1930s to deal with the widespead pellegra outbreak.

 

I guess if they had a patent on vitamin C, they could charge whatever the market will bear.  Kind of like those new hepatitis C drugs that cost a thousand dollars a pill.  Admittedly, the market is pushing back on that a little, but people with Hep C might otherwise need an even more-expensive liver transplant.  Immortality will probably not be free...  I'd rather not see food fortification, because not everyone needs it.  Some governments simply invalidate drug patents if the drug company doesn't play ball with them.  The US isn't one of those, though.  We let big pharma call all the shots.

 

Societies need to decide how much reward is reasonable, and where price-gouging begins.   If a lethal plague was sweeping the Earth, and someone had a cure, but wanted a million dollars a dose, would that be OK?  At current list prices, a 750-1000mg daily dose of NR is around $5-7 a day.  By pharmaceutical standards, that's not ridiculous.  A daily dose of Advair, for example is about ten dollars.  Of course, by supplement standards, NR prices are off the charts.



#7 Phoenicis

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:10 PM

Declining NAD+ levels are thought to be pathogenic in many age related diseases so I don't consider this to be of a different magnitude from pellegra (classic b3 deficiency). The USA and others may have developed alot scientifically since the 30s, but principles of good scientific governance seem to be declining.


Edited by Phoenicis, 20 July 2014 - 10:16 PM.


#8 blood

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:11 PM

Immortality will probably not be free...


Worth a read:
 

The longevity gap: Costly new longevity drugs could help the wealthy live 120 years or more but will everyone else die young?

The life expectancy gap between the affluent and the poor and working class in the US, for instance, now clocks in at 12.2 years. College-educated white men can expect to live to age 80, while counterparts without a high-school diploma die by age 67. White women with a college degree have a life expectancy of nearly 84, compared with uneducated women, who live to 73.

This is just a harbinger of things to come. What will happen when new scientific discoveries extend potential human lifespan and intensify these inequities on a more massive scale? It looks like the ultimate war between the haves and have-nots wont be fought over the issue of money, per se, but over living to age 60 versus living to 120 or more. Will anyone just accept that the haves get two lives while the have-nots barely get one?

We should discuss the issue now, because we are close to delivering a true fountain of youth that could potentially extend our productive lifespan into our hundreds its no longer the stuff of science fiction. In just the last five years, there have been so many breakthroughs, says the Harvard geneticist David Sinclair. There are now a number of compounds being tested in the lab that greatly slow down the ageing process and delay the onset of diabetes, cancer and heart disease...



#9 Bryan_S

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:00 AM

Some good points but keep in mind this is a relatively new nutrient and we are all in on the ground floor and the paint on the door hasn't even dried yet. I heard about this stuff in 2007 just by chance and kept up with the publications until this year before I started buying. The Universities hold the patents and have to be paid to allow others the right to use their research and processes. I think this is fair. Personally I work in a copyright environment and know how it feels to have people steal my work and circumvent paying me for my expenses. Don't even get me started on what protecting those rights cost or the costs of collecting the court awards. All that runs up the cost of doing business for every customer down the line. Think about it if you invested your money into discovering the Fountain of Youth and I will admit not all the research is in yet on that point, and some Chinese company stole your work and circumvented paying you what would you do? I already see the outlay of millions of dollars.

 

I've already had several Chinese companies try and sell me B3 as (NR), and if you could actually get a legitimate sample for testing would they swap the next buy out with the fake stuff? I'm not taking a supplement from someone who I cant trust with my health. If you poison or at the very least trick me into buying a bogus product I want to be able to legally come after you. If there are no laws or you are out of reach of the law chances are you will likely cheat me.

 

Look at the bright side someone did step in and commercially begin making and promoting this stuff. If that didn't happen where would we be now and would we be having this conversation? Thats how these things progress and become main stream and the promotion and distribution stream are just out of the gate and that costs money. Right now the commercialization of this stuff is paying for a PK study with Dr. Brenner, which we desperately needed. He's the one credited with discovering (NR) as a naturally occurring nutrient. I've tried pulling some details out of the planned study and I'm sensing the mouse model dosing scaled to human isn't the target. If not for these guys we'd be looking at micro quantities and outrageous lab prices if we were ever inclined to buy the stuff anyway. Just give it time, as it catches on the prices should come down as the investments are paid back. 

 

To directly answer your question "TIME" we are the human lab rats in a brand new market.

 

Also last time I checked aging wasn't considered a disease and I don't see the government adding (NR) to our food or water.

 

I'll be announcing another group buy at 30% off the street value near the end of "next" month. 


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#10 Phoenicis

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:49 AM

Despite the fact that in his 2013 paper Sinclair describes impaired insulin signalling as a biochemical aspect of aging,  we have known for some time that declining NAD+ due to PARP plays a role in diseases like diabetes. While aging may or may not be a disease, diabetes most certainly is and I feel this comes way too close to restricting a newly found essential vitamin for my liking. Were this some kind of artificial implant for improving or recovering biological function, I would not be as put off by this marketing technique.

 

We know that nicotinamide stops working due to declining NAMPT with age, so that means Nam is not the best form of b3 and many people don't want to have the flushing which comes with nicotinic acid. NR should probably be recognized as an essential vitamin right next to Nam and NA, after all there are over 400 NAD dependent reactions, vitamin C pales in comparison.

 

I doubt this is the fountain of youth, this is promising for the diseases of aging and many other aspects of aging, but what about declining KLOTHO, GDF-11, not to mention NAMPT? What deficiencies and/or genetic and epigenetic causes are responsible for that?

 

 

 

Also last time I checked aging wasn't considered a disease and I don't see the government adding (NR) to our food or water.

 

 

 


Edited by Phoenicis, 21 July 2014 - 01:23 AM.


#11 Bryan_S

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:49 AM

With all do respect I've looked at this situation develope for the last 7 years and I'm very happy with the outcome. I also want the price to come down and it will, this is just the way the markets work. 

 

Insulin sensitivity . . . and as I've entered my 5 month I can feel this effect as my body adjusts and can see this as a therapeutic aid for many.

 

Essential vitamin I don't think it's been accepted as that, I wouldn't argue that point but it's not recognized as such yet. It's going to take a lot of money for it to reach that status realistically if ever. Keep in mind as a nutrient it is found in scarce amounts and to my knowledge no one is restricting it or until now realized it could be so beneficial. This is just how our drug and food laws work and how commercial enterprise steps in and provides a solution. 

 

Take cardiac hypertrophy for instance, 2 years ago I had a family member die of this so I became attuned to the plight of others who were looking for a solution just as I was and one came to light last year. The first possible treatment to thin the walls of the aging heart and possibly like (NR) turn back the clock. Can you imagine all the people at deaths door. The first human clinical trial will take 5 years to raise the capital and jump through all the FDA hurdles. If you want to focus on the injustice of the FDA and all the other governmental agencies across the planet this is it. They are going to make people die waiting for this "cure" so get in line. The cure is blood factor GDF-11. So for us we can just put our (NR) on the credit card and in 3 days open the mailbox. These people who are waiting for a treatment to let their hearts work unencumbered have 5-10 years unless something comes along sooner. If you want to read outrage find a fourm full of cardiac hypertrophy patients as I did last year. God I don't wish that torment on anyone!

 

These things don't come without a few wrinkles as the discoveries are made. We live in an unfolding world of understanding and today we are just starting to see a glimmering of hope of health for all ( or those who can afford it ) in the distance.


Edited by Bryan_S, 21 July 2014 - 02:44 AM.


#12 niner

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:57 AM

 

The longevity gap: Costly new longevity drugs could help the wealthy live 120 years or more but will everyone else die young?

The life expectancy gap between the affluent and the poor and working class in the US, for instance, now clocks in at 12.2 years. College-educated white men can expect to live to age 80, while counterparts without a high-school diploma die by age 67. White women with a college degree have a life expectancy of nearly 84, compared with uneducated women, who live to 73.

This is just a harbinger of things to come. What will happen when new scientific discoveries extend potential human lifespan and intensify these inequities on a more massive scale? It looks like the ultimate war between the haves and have-nots wont be fought over the issue of money, per se, but over living to age 60 versus living to 120 or more. Will anyone just accept that the haves get two lives while the have-nots barely get one?

We should discuss the issue now, because we are close to delivering a true fountain of youth that could potentially extend our productive lifespan into our hundreds its no longer the stuff of science fiction. In just the last five years, there have been so many breakthroughs, says the Harvard geneticist David Sinclair. There are now a number of compounds being tested in the lab that greatly slow down the ageing process and delay the onset of diabetes, cancer and heart disease...

 

 

I think they're being a little over-wrought.  If we have drugs that can keep a person healthy and working into their 80's 90's, or 100's, that will be worth a lot of money to a society that has already signed on to supporting these people in their old age and to providing ever-more-expensive health care until they naturally expire.  The comments on this article were a lot more clueful than the usual stuff that shows up any time life extension is mentioned.    Seems like a smart crowd.  (including a couple comments by our own Darryl)



#13 Phoenicis

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:43 AM

Katrina L. Bogan et al., Nicotinic Acid, Nicotinamide, and Nicotinamide Riboside: A Molecular Evaluation of NAD+ Precursor Vitamins in Human Nutrition, Annu. Rev. Nutr. 2008.28:115–30

 

"NR clearly qualifies as a vitamin by virtue of rescuing growth of strains deficient in de novo synthesis (14,83), improving Sir2 functions(8), and utilizing a dedicated transporter(8a). Additionally, because cells deleted for the NR/NaR salvage enzymes have a significant deficiency in intracellular NAD+ when not supplemented with these compounds, it appears that NR and/or NaR are also normal metabolites (8)."

 

In that article the authors also state that milk is a source of NR!

 

 

[...] Essential vitamin I don't think it's been accepted as that, I wouldn't argue that point but it's not recognized as such yet. It's going to take a lot of money for it to reach that status realistically if ever. Keep in mind as a nutrient it is found in scarce amounts and to my knowledge no one is restricting it or until now realized it could be so beneficial. This is just how our drug and food laws work and how commercial enterprise steps in and provides a solution. 

 

 


Edited by Phoenicis, 21 July 2014 - 04:51 AM.

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#14 Kevnzworld

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:44 AM

Chromadex controls the patent for NR. It isn't productive to complain about something that we have no control over.
I pay the $ to take 500mg of NR , using the discounts offered here. I supplement that with 100 mg of NA taken twice a day for NAD reasons, not $ ones...
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#15 Bryan_S

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:49 AM

 

You know for some of us retirement isn't an option. We need to keep the machine functioning just to care for our families. If the expense of these drugs enables us to do so I think most of us will allocate that money if we can do so. As more of us buy into extending our lives the price to do so will come down and our medical expenses will follow. At least thats the premiss and the trust we've placed in our technology.


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#16 Bryan_S

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:03 AM

Katrina L. Bogan et al., Nicotinic Acid, Nicotinamide, and Nicotinamide Riboside: A Molecular Evaluation of NAD+ Precursor Vitamins in Human Nutrition, Annu. Rev. Nutr. 2008.28:115–30

 

"NR clearly qualifies as a vitamin by virtue of rescuing growth of strains deficient in de novo synthesis (14,83), improving Sir2 functions(8), and utilizing a dedicated transporter(8a). Additionally, because cells deleted for the NR/NaR salvage enzymes have a significant deficiency in intracellular NAD+ when not supplemented with these compounds, it appears that NR and/or NaR are also normal metabolites (8)."

 

In that article the authors also state that milk is a source of NR!

 

 

[...] Essential vitamin "I don't think it's been accepted as that, I wouldn't argue that point" but it's not recognized as such yet. It's going to take a lot of money for it to reach that status realistically if ever. Keep in mind as a nutrient it is found in scarce amounts and to my knowledge no one is restricting it or until now realized it could be so beneficial. This is just how our drug and food laws work and how commercial enterprise steps in and provides a solution. 

 

 

 

Hum we might just be on the same page. "I don't think it's been accepted as that" and as of today it has not gained an essential vitamin designation. "I wouldn't argue that point" so as I said no argument from me, just try and take my bottle of NR away!



#17 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:50 PM

Chromadex controls the patent for NR. It isn't productive to complain about something that we have no control over.
I pay the $ to take 500mg of NR , using the discounts offered here. I supplement that with 100 mg of NA taken twice a day for NAD reasons, not $ ones...

 

 

What are the discounts currently being offered to members here and where do I find them?

 

 



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#18 Bryan_S

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 10:20 PM

Here is where it will happen August 15-20th. Its set up every 2 months. Just follow the topic and you'll get notified with a discount code in one of the posts on that forum.

 

http://www.longecity...city-group-buy/







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