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TAGsync: Operation and Discussion

tagsync theta alpha gamma synchrony training neurofeedback operation discussion

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#481 VastEmptiness

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 09:43 AM

Thanks VastEmptyness! When training, do you use Delta 1-4, Theta 4-8,.. or a subset of each. 

 

Also, I read the collura white paper which says to uptrain the Summed Amplitude and downtrain the difference. Do you all use both for each frequency band or just uptrain the summed amplitude? 

 

Thanks. 

 

I'd like to have a look into that, maybe you can forward the paper to me.

As for frequencies I would be very cautious in manipulating amplitude as the distributions within the brain (specifically alpha&beta, left/right and front/back ratios) have a HUGE impact on wellbeing into both directions and they can be manipulated very quickly (at least in my brain). The brain-trainer.com QEEG can be a good orientation here.

 

Either way, I'd stick to uptraining things like coherence and specifically phase-difference (to less difference, so down). If you look into Douglas design you'll see it only rewards strongs peaks of the amplitudes, so yes, it's amplitude training, but only when they really peak together (in sync). It leaves them to follow whatever dynamic other than that.

 

I usually start at 1.5hz because i get alot of artifact below that. I think I did 1.5-3.5 4-8 9-12 38.25-42. Since I dont know where my bands sit exactly (except the alpha peak). I tried various setups and they all felt good. I think it's more important to cover a good range. 

 

I would really recommend any beginner to just start with 8-12 and 3-6 and the regular TAGx2 design and learn to get many bell sounds and create an enjoyable meditation experience. Target mostly midline Fz to Pz and Cz to Oz) (and maybe additional sites according to QEEG). Add a 5/5 breathing timer, start with 4/4 if it's difficult. You might want to compare that with GSR and see what gives you more pleasant results. I think either is a good training that might synergise with TAGsync (Douglas has designs combining both for other platforms, i think).



#482 MRBIOFEEDBACK

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 01:58 AM

Here you go: 

 

http://www.brainmast...kb/file/210/82/

 

Here Collura describes Synchrony as nothing more than amplitude of sums and difference between channel amplitudes. 

 

With reference to DD protocol you say:

 

" If you look into Douglas design you'll see it only rewards strongs peaks of the amplitudes, so yes, it's amplitude training, but only when they really peak together (in sync). It leaves them to follow whatever dynamic other than that."

 

That essentially means he's only rewarding the top 10% or so of the summed amplitudes (i.e. threshold set to 10% rewards)? Other than that I don't really know what you mean. 

 

Thanks, it seems to me that TAG Sync has a lot of validity and i'm looking much more into it. 

 

 

 


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#483 Strelok

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 11:14 PM

Does anybody have a Q-Wiz and other TAGSync gear that they no longer want/need and would be interested in selling?



#484 rock_zaozz

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 03:40 PM

Does anybody have a Q-Wiz and other TAGSync gear that they no longer want/need and would be interested in selling?

 

Hello , i do have one , i will pm you , regards



#485 VastEmptiness

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 02:34 PM

I'm looking more into biofeedback approaches and would like to incorporate them into my practice. Afaik the Q-wiz can use the following:

-EMG muscle (tension downtraining) for wrists/forehead and back
-Skin Resistance (stress/transspiration downtraining) - where?
-Skin Temperature (tension downtraining/relaxation) - hands/feet/forehead?
-Pulseoximetry (i'm using EKG so far, does pulse have any advantages?)

-there is a sensor that measures co2 and o2 in breath thats good for breathing training, dont remember the name

However I have trouble finding products/sensors and instructions how to train either. Does anyone of you have done that successfully? So far I'm only succeding at using HEG/EEG/EKG.


Edited by VastEmptiness, 02 November 2015 - 02:35 PM.

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#486 umop 3pisdn

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 05:13 PM

I'm looking more into biofeedback approaches and would like to incorporate them into my practice. Afaik the Q-wiz can use the following:

-EMG muscle (tension downtraining) for wrists/forehead and back
-Skin Resistance (stress/transspiration downtraining) - where?
-Skin Temperature (tension downtraining/relaxation) - hands/feet/forehead?
-Pulseoximetry (i'm using EKG so far, does pulse have any advantages?)

-there is a sensor that measures co2 and o2 in breath thats good for breathing training, dont remember the name

However I have trouble finding products/sensors and instructions how to train either. Does anyone of you have done that successfully? So far I'm only succeding at using HEG/EEG/EKG.

 

Glyn Blackett has a lot of stuff with various biofeedback measures. I also know a bit, though I haven't really got into it on a practical level, yet.

 

EMG I'm planning on using with the first tetrad in anapanasati practice (the fourth step, calming bodily formations), basically put sensors in a few places (frontalis, trapezius, maybe the chest and somewhere else), sum them to get a general/near- whole body 'muscle tone' reading, and try to coax it down naturally while following the breath. You could also do the same thing with some sort of breath sensor, get it to measure breaths per minute, and have it give you feedback until it gradually/naturally goes down to 1 bpm or less. It's not a terribly direct way of using feedback, but it would probably serve as a useful guideline for getting your breath rate down in a natural/habitual way which is supposed to be conducive to samadhi.

 

Breathing seems like it's best monitored with a thermistor placed by the nostril (the same you'd use for finger temperature), some people use strain gauges but I think a really efficient breath, like that used in deep meditation, doesn't involve much displacement of the abdomen/chest at all, so measuring the temperature variation between warm expired air and neutral/cool inspired air might be more accurate. The other kind of sensor you're talking about for CO2 (a capnometer) is really expensive and likely not worth looking into, they also make noise because they have to draw the air from the alveoli, and they seem involve some pretty sensitive/complex machinery. Bioera does have support for a medical capnometer, though, that you could probably buy for $800 or so (iirc) so that would be the cheaper (but more complex/fiddly way) of going about it because you'd have to do some work to sort out the drivers and software. A more easy plug and play option would be going with something like the capnotrainer, and that comes with a software suite, but that device is extremely expensive. Personally while I think end tidal CO2 could be an extremely robust measure, it's too prohibitive and other measures are likely robust enough, so there isn't the incentive to pursue it, but ymmv.

 

Pulse oximetry seems to have no advantage that I can see. I've never had any reason to observe SpO2, and the HRV measure using that sort of instrument is much less reliable than ECG. If you're interested in monitoring heart rate measures, I'd stick to ECG.

 

Skin resistance is also too finicky to use as a direct training modality, but you can use it on a threshold basis, with big swings in the measure being used as a sort of 'arousal detector'.

 

Skin temperature is a little more reliable, but I haven't found any reason to train it directly, yet, but it would make for a good auxiliary or secondary measure of relaxation.

 

Generally speaking, I think you can match a few things to the Anapanasati tetrads, my plan is basically:

 

Basic/Core Practice: Knowing the Inhale and Exhale, familiarizing yourself with the breath, if you wanted you could use a breath sensor to alert you to the rising and falling breath (say via rising a falling midi pitch), then maybe modify the volume with a very basic and simple attention measure (HEG ratio, or 10-14 Hz Alpha amplitude at Pz)

 

then once that base becomes robust and ingrained, using that to observe:

 

Kaya/Body: Breath Rate, EMG Tone (Knowing Long and Short inhale/exhale, calming bodily formations)

Vedana/Feeling: Entropy, Alpha Phase Synchrony (entropy seems to correlate, at least, to calming mental formation, then can use phase sync for maintaining continuity of awareness)

Citta/Consciousness: TAGsync (or really alpha-theta, as a 'pointing out' the mind practice, like DD mentions)

 

and then use consciousness as a base for observing Dhammas.

 

The reason the breath is so useful is because it's a facsimile for the mind, the breath has minute variations that reflect in a rather robust way various mental operations and attitudes. You can 'breathe' with anything. You can contemplate death, or faith, or loving-kindness, and observe the effect that these conceptual objects have on your breathing, so in that way you can almost do two things at once, because the breath reflects the mind. You can do the same thing with the different bases of phenomenological experience (the satipatthanas), and you can join it to bio/neurofeedback. At this point I think that's the way to go, so there's some continuity (following the breath) across all of the potential practices and modalities we can adopt. So you're 'digging only one well' (or you have 'one' samatha object, the breath) which is also many (all of these other phenomena and trainings we can adopt). But again, YMMV. I think there needs to be some continuity in my practice, otherwise I worry I have too many balls in the air and that will aggravate my tendency to become distracted (I have the ruminating or speculative temperament in commentarial Buddhism [vitakka-carita], which is marked by a lack of progress due to a scattering of mental energies).


Edited by umop 3pisdn, 02 November 2015 - 05:30 PM.

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#487 VastEmptiness

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 10:50 AM

 

 

The reason the breath is so useful is because it's a facsimile for the mind, the breath has minute variations that reflect in a rather robust way various mental operations and attitudes. You can 'breathe' with anything. You can contemplate death, or faith, or loving-kindness, and observe the effect that these conceptual objects have on your breathing, so in that way you can almost do two things at once, because the breath reflects the mind. You can do the same thing with the different bases of phenomenological experience (the satipatthanas), and you can join it to bio/neurofeedback. At this point I think that's the way to go, so there's some continuity (following the breath) across all of the potential practices and modalities we can adopt. So you're 'digging only one well' (or you have 'one' samatha object, the breath) which is also many (all of these other phenomena and trainings we can adopt). But again, YMMV. I think there needs to be some continuity in my practice, otherwise I worry I have too many balls in the air and that will aggravate my tendency to become distracted (I have the ruminating or speculative temperament in commentarial Buddhism [vitakka-carita], which is marked by a lack of progress due to a scattering of mental energies).

!!!

Great post, umop. Thank you one more time for your valuable contributions. Did you already train with one of those modalities and if so, which concrete sensors did you use? Specifically a thermo-sensor (which according to the q-wiz manual goes into the HEG-port?) maybe even one that fits the nostrils? I'm unable to find any products as of now. I do have 4 EMG electrodes however I'm not sure which protocol to use with it or which frequencies to train if i just build my own. Also would like to still try out SR as theres pretty good results in just tension release which I'd like independent of meditation practice. And yes, canoptry isn't an option. This seems to be an interesting modality if you actually want to train the content of the breath (o2/co2 ratio etc) for endurance athletes, divers, or what not.


 

 

Vedana/Feeling: Entropy, Alpha Phase Synchrony (entropy seems to correlate, at least, to calming mental formation, then can use phase sync for maintaining continuity of awareness)

Citta/Consciousness: TAGsync (or really alpha-theta, as a 'pointing out' the mind practice, like DD mentions)

 

Very interesting. Would you say that Entropy/Alpha Sync correlates to concentration practice then? Do you use a broadband squish? Which sites do you target? I'd love to focus on calming mental formations however my entropy levels are somewhat excellent to a little high, so I'm worried about uptraining them further. In the video tutorials the Northstar guy mentioned rather training alpha sync when entropy is too high, so that's what I've been doing and it kind of let me of having really insanely high alpha amplitudes all over (looks bizarre on the Q) which gives a very pleasent detached feel but my mind kind of rumbles on (until it, including most other sensation, pretty much becomes objects that just pass along - however i'd rather cultivate some stillness). The back of my head is really overactive, specifically on the right, so i'd like to target that with a squish during meditation.

Alpha-theta would correlate to Insight practice then? I was achieving deeper states the deeper I went in frequency, so I can really recommend trying things like 1.5-3hz / 3-6hz / 9-11hz alltogether (I'm actually doing Gamma as well). Douglas told me that he chose to only train 2 channels and alpha/theta for a reason and he referenced to Siegels book on the Mindful Brain to argument that 2 channels might be more effective in cultivating mindfulness. (I've sent him the 4C design for an opinion).

 

Btw: Some of the most intense sensations I've came across in TAGsync and regular meditation came alongside an extreme slowing of the breath until it almost felt like I wasn't breathing without a feeling of lack of air. I always wondered if I should aim for that or rather use a breathing timer that gets me to a steady synchronous breathing/heart wave, so your post is really interesting about the 1bpm breath.

 

You also mentioned HEG as a measure of concentration. I'm somewhat worried about overtraining HEG. How do you use it in conjunction? Passive or active? Concrete procedure?


Lots of questions. Also how important do you think is traditional posture and what about it do you think is important? I used to train Zazen in the dojo and spent most of the time suffering through pain. When I've switched to TAGsync I went into a meditative posture that has back support and is far from the ideal zen posture however I seldom have to deal with pain, i'm calmer and can practice much longer. Spine is very straight, breathing is say 80% as free as in zazen.

 


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#488 Sebster

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 03:14 PM

Hello everyone!

I have been away from the forum for a long time now, and getting back reading what been

witten in this thread and its is just WOW! :)

 

I have been doing lots of TAG training and meditation lately, which have had some really interesting results. :)

 

My mind now just feels so much more optimized and ready for higher abstraction of thoughts. I haven´t done any IQ test or similar type of test, but I perceive it that my fluid intelligence has increased and I am much quicker at grasping and understanding concepts then before.

 

But I seem to be having a bit of side effects, My energy is seem to have gone down in general, sometimes I feel extremely sleepy for no reason`, and I am much slower in general, but mind is still very much awake and aware. Has anyone else noticed same thing?

I have also notice that I have less desire to do things that is not new or have a bit of novelty around them.

 

It also seems that my self-referential thoughts has decreased and they have almost zero stickiness now.

 

I have also noticed from this increase in awareness and fluidity of that thoughts I most likely suffer from Dyslexia or other writing/spelling difficulties. On the other hand reading seems to be all right. This something that I find a bit odd, can I have had this difficulties all my life without being aware of them?

 

 

Also a few question has come to my mind reading this thread.

 

*All these modalities of training; GSR, HRV and EKG when do you train them, or do you guys train them at the same session you’re doing the TAG training? (You do both visual and audio feedback?)

 

*What would the benefits/purpose of these additional training modalities give, in my view of the world they would still anchor you to the body?

 

*What would you guys say is the difference between TAG training and mindfulness training?

*Can TAG be used to correct dyslexia, if so do you have any idea on how to go about it?

 

/Sebster


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#489 Sebster

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 04:01 PM

VastEmptiness, umop 3pisdn, MRBIOFEEDBACK Thank you for these very informative contributions to the thread! <3

 

 

VastEmptiness; In regards to your posture question I don’t think its massively important if your not planning do very long sittings. A straight spine is of course recommend and needed for those long sittings as you would probably slouch or have other issues making you drowsy or tired.

 

My self I do all my meditation/NFB sitting cross-legged on a chair or the sofa. But if I´m planning on doing longer session I just lay down flat on the floor with a blanket. (this is also my favorite position.) I do have a meditation cushion and DIY meditation bench too but I rarely use them as lying down is most comfortable for me and takes me deepest. But if you have access to a meditation bench I can recommend it because they are really good as it gets your spine in a very good position with literarily no pain or other issues. I would recommend them to anyone having postural issues when doing zazen. :)

 

But one thing to remember is that the posture is just a tool to get in the right mindstate or focus and is actually not needed. so I would rather recommend to try o do NFB and meditation on all conceivable postures. I´m going to start doing my NFB standing just for the variation.

 

Regards to the breathing when doing meditation and TAG, I also get this extremely slow breathing, where it feels as if I´m not breathing anything at all. When this happened in the begging I would always panic as it felt as if I was dying, I would then snap my self out of it and take a regular breath and then continue on with the meditation. And this was also was accompanied with a sensation of the body being a corpse or heavy asleep. Now this is a common occurrence for me and happens most times I meditate or do NFB. And now I even gets this corpse like feeling when I´m just laying on the sofa/bed relaxing.  And this might also be what you are experiencing?   I´m not sure if its something that someone aims for really but maybe just occurs naturally with continued practice atleast it did for me. :)

/Sebster


Edited by Sebster, 03 November 2015 - 04:05 PM.

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#490 umop 3pisdn

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 07:39 AM

I typed out a whole long reply and my browser deleted it, I'm a little frustrated now so this is going to be a bit more terse than I originally planned :p

 

__

 

 

I don't have a Q.Wiz, I actually bought a J&J I-330 C2+ for Biofeedback, the temperature sensor looks like this:

http://imgur.com/zXimPEC

 

The two snap leads are for SR, and the third black cord ending in a slight bulb is the temperature sensor. You just tape that to a finger or nostril. Physiopilot also makes biofeedback instruments, you could look at their catalogue if the Q.Wiz doesn't have an equivalent sensor.

 

For designs I'd look at Glyn Blackett's designs, he's all about using biofeedback for mindfulness practice. Itallis also has some biofeedback designs for sale, too.

 

__

 

 

I think a lot of things can correlate to concentration practice, if the measure is responsive and relevant enough to whatever it is you are doing, your mind will naturally pay attention to it and use it as a guide about whether you're on task or not. I'm not sure if there's any design that really specifically targets concentration meditation, though. I actually think that tranquillity/concentration most naturally follow from working with the body, so the stuff we're discussing with biofeedback is probably the most useful.

 

What entropy is useful for is noticing the split second where a thought becomes attachment. When I'm training entropy I'm constantly abandoning thoughts, basically what it lets you do is notice the gap between the initial thought, and your mind seizing the thought and running with it, and once you notice this gap you can 'slide the knife' and separate the two occurrences. And in some ways that's more impressive than developing concentration, because it is pretty subtle. You can use it to develop concentration, but I think in a way it's kind of backwards, because it's examining tension and stress on an even subtler level than you would use to develop concentration. It's in the same spectrum, but it's its own process.

 

For sites I just use the same ones I use to train TAGsync, fronto-parietal sites, with the rationale being that I'm covering more 'global' brain activity that way.

 

I'm not sure what to do if your entropy or alpha are high, mine seem really average.

 

Alpha I just thought would be useful for maintaining continuity of awareness while doing entropy training. For me it's like a 'stepped down' version of TAGsync, so I'd use it just to retain continuous awareness as the mind settles down, I don't think it's actually that important, just sort of a safety net to prevent mental dullness (for me at least, ymmv).

 

__

 

 

TAGsync itself doesn't correlate to insight practice. In a way it's more concentration practice, it's just that you're concentrating on your awareness or consciousness. The first three tetrads in anapanasati (which I recommend looking to as a general guide anyways) that is those of body, feeling, and consciousness; when you look at these processes they're all about calming down these processes so as to eventually apply them to insight in the fourth tetrad. So mindfulness of consciousness (and by extension TAGsync) leads directly into insight, but it isn't itself insight.

 

The difference is you have to be able to perceive your awareness with enough fidelity to directly witness the mind as impermanence. That is insight practice, and I don't think there's any design to help with that, just work with the fundamentals via TAGsync until it happens.

 

Things like the breath slowing down are common, but they're generally intermittent. What we're trying to do is make them fall under our skill so they're consistent. Refining the breath process until it naturally slows down is one way of doing that, and a breath sensor might help just in giving some objective feedback in how you're doing with that. 1bpm is often a sort of benchmark that people describe, that's not doing it by force though, basically just investigating the breath mechanics and calming every inefficiency in breathing until it happens on its own naturally.

 

__

 

 

HEG is fine to train if you're not consciously intending to make your gain go up in a very vigorous way like standard HEG training (I think that's what you mean by passively), so no I wouldn't do the regular kind of HEG training on a regular basis, but if you approach it more gently it can still be useful.

 

I don't think posture itself is that important, you just want a stable and relaxed posture (so you can 'forget' your body and not worry about toppling over), that also encourages alertness, anything that will do will do. The only reason people talk about the lotus posture so much is that your body is literally a tripod, so it's very stable, but most westerners aren't going to be able to pull it off and it really isn't essential, I personally sit seiza most of the time.

 

 

 

Generally, I'm operating from this understanding as a rule of thumb:

 

Mindfulness of Breathing develops sati (which you could consider 'heedfulness'), which counteracts sense desire.

Mindfulness of the Body develops samadhi (which you could consider 'concentration'), which counteracts restlessness and remorse.

Mindfulness of Feeling develops viriya (which you could consider 'effort'), which counteracts sloth and torpor.

Mindfulness of Consciousness develops saddha (or 'faith), which counteracts ill will.

and Mindfulness of Mental Events (dhammas) develops panna (or wisdom) which counteracts doubt.

 

Mindfulness of Breathing you can consider the binding practice that balances and links the latter four together, that's why it's amenable to sati which is the balancing factor of the five indriyas, or certainly that's how it's used in the four Anapanasati tetrads.

 

 


Edited by umop 3pisdn, 09 November 2015 - 08:04 AM.

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#491 zamzal

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Posted 11 November 2015 - 07:35 AM

Hey guys,

 

Thanks for all the contributions to this amazing thread. I have read everything and I'm really excited to getting started myself.

 

I wanted to check if anyone has a Neurofeedback set available for sale? If so, send me a PM or get in touch.

 

Thanks


Edited by Mind, 13 April 2016 - 04:52 PM.

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#492 VastEmptiness

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:22 PM

Ken Wilber is giving a 1,5hour guided meditation tonight. You can sign up for free, there will also be a recording.

http://www.fullspect....com/broadcast/

Wilber has been the most important scholar for me as of now. 



#493 Sebster

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 08:51 PM

VE, thanks a lot. Where did you find this? :)

 

I just signed up. :)

Ken Wilber is giving a 1,5hour guided meditation tonight. You can sign up for free, there will also be a recording.

http://www.fullspect....com/broadcast/

Wilber has been the most important scholar for me as of now. 

 


Edited by Sebster, 18 November 2015 - 08:54 PM.


#494 VastEmptiness

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 09:29 AM

The recording is up now, they actually ended up 2.5 hours for the whole thing. I'm getting the Integral Life newsletter. While they offer alot of stuff for money, most of it is for free and there is several events like this. There was a recent one called Psychology of the Future where they interviewed alot of Neurofeedback and Psychedelic guys which I found really interesting. Crowstream and I have some recordings of it I think. James Hart of Biocybernaut really raved on about EEG patterns of seeing angels and everything lol. Btw, relevant post: https://integrallife...ages-meditation

For me voice and presence does alot to teaching and it's sad that Wilber has lost alot of his due to immunity sickness and age. If you look at the older videos of him, he was amazing with the way he articulates (as you see in his writing).

 

Also leaving this beautiful talk by Francisco Varela here. As well one of my favorite scholars.



Also I still really want to find out, what type of meditation ken does, when the mind mirror goes off in this video. If anybody has a theory, please share. @umop?

 

 

 


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#495 Irishdude

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 06:56 PM

I have suffered for years with depression/anxiety/apathy/cognitive impairment. I now have a lot of time on my hands and will so for the next two years. I will be incarcerated here for pot and hopefully will be able to bring this device in. Is there anywhere I could get a reasonably priced device for this less than 500e? I could spend more but I do not know if its for me yet. I am a total beginner. Thanks all.



#496 Bobity

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 11:51 PM

Irishdude,  you'd be very hard pressed to get much for 500e.  Bioexplorer alone cost $575 (or strictly the HASP hardware key costs that - Bioexplorer itself is free but needs the HASP to run).  Bioexplorer is required to run TAGsync and the Brain-Trainer software referred to in this thread. You'll need a mid spec PC to run Bioexplorer and drive an eeg amplifier - I recently bought a Lenovo X230 on ebay for £270 - which is more than adequate.   Then you'll need an amplifier e.g. Q-Wiz which costs about $900 and gives you 4 channels of eeg.  Pocket Neurobics also make a U-Wiz - a 2 channel device for $595.  Then you need some eeg leads which cost about $30 - $60,  some Ten20 conductive paste, TAGsync for about $300  etc etc.  Its an expensive game - but one which can deliver unparalleled results....

 

With your budget you may be better looking at either :

(1) Alpha Stim - about $700,  which induces a strong Alpha signal and according to the literature is pretty good for depression / trauma / relaxation - I had a go on one at a neurofeedback conference recently and I was impressed - I could almost smell the blue smoke of the black hash - the Alpha it induced was that strong ! 

(2) emwave2 - about $200 which trains heart rate variability and gets you to relax very deeply.

 

Best of luck to you - you'll find a way 


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#497 Thomlandia

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 02:25 AM

but where the warranty



#498 Sebster

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:30 AM

Thanks again for this massive value! :)

 

My basic understand is that Ken wilber is most likely entering the state of samhadi, but I can be completely wrong. ( most likely I am wrong)

Also I still really want to find out, what type of meditation ken does, when the mind mirror goes off in this video. If anybody has a theory, please share. @umop?

 

 

Bobity, Which alpha stim was you tried?

Was it this one? http://www.alpha-sti...apy-stimulator/

And yes Emwave2 is a great value I think, especially the innerbalance one. (I have one my self and I really like it)

 

 

(1) Alpha Stim - about $700,  which induces a strong Alpha signal and according to the literature is pretty good for depression / trauma / relaxation - I had a go on one at a neurofeedback conference recently and I was impressed - I could almost smell the blue smoke of the black hash - the Alpha it induced was that strong ! 

(2) emwave2 - about $200 which trains heart rate variability and gets you to relax very deeply.

 

Best of luck to you - you'll find a way 

 

Thomlandi, What do you mean with warranty?

NFB and TAG sync; Works if you put in the effort. How much you gain is completely up to yoy  how disciplined you are and how much time you put in to try to learn all the all the in and outs.  And your recovery plan etc.

I have had my device since may and there is still plenty to learn. And yes it is expensive, but to me this has been the best investiment in tech I have done to aid my well being and cognitive growth!

But Don´t forget the stuff that is free, For exampe meditation which is a POWERHOUSE for raising well being and personal enhancement. If you dont meditate regularly (30-60min daily) start with that. You will get great results if you are consistent. Meditation is my go tool for well being, it is so immensely powerful after consistent practice.

 

And of course yoga is also great. :)

 

 

 

/Sebster!

 

 

but where the warranty

 


Edited by Sebster, 20 November 2015 - 11:33 AM.


#499 Bobity

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:12 PM

Sebster - yes that was the one http://www.alpha-sti...apy-stimulator/ - I was surprised how powerful it was in just 20 minutes

 

I'd agree with Sebster re meditation - its free - just the time commitment - and over time you inner world blooms - its just about time and dedication...  



#500 umop 3pisdn

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 05:05 PM

Also I still really want to find out, what type of meditation ken does, when the mind mirror goes off in this video. If anybody has a theory, please share. @umop?

 

 

I'm pretty sure it's essentially a form of meditation where you observe and abandon thoughts. That video and particularly this one is a big part of what got me into investigating entropy, eeg variance, broad squash protocols, etc, in regards to meditation (they're all sort of the same thing, just some are probably better approaches than others imo). Particularly after I used the narrow band inhibits by themselves in the TAGsync designs and found that they quieted my thoughts a lot, I wondered what the mechanism might have been, and that caused me to eventually stumble onto entropy, after realizing that the Peak Achievement guys basically just use a broadband squash at Fpz as their main attention training approach. This video shows the same basic phenomenon as the Ken Wilber video (a reduction in all amplitudes, which is kind of the idea behind entropy training, too, just entropy also obligatorily has all of those bands proportional to each other), it's just that the phenomenon in this video is less pronounced.

 

 

Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics is free and publicly available if you want to read about that approach to meditation, the original text is pretty bare bones though and you might be better off also looking at one of the commentaries produced by other Hermeticists like Mistele or Rawn Clark. My favorite commentary is probably by Veos, though:

http://forums.vsocie...p?topic=13531.0


Edited by umop 3pisdn, 20 November 2015 - 05:10 PM.

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#501 DonManley

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 09:48 PM

I have suffered for years with depression/anxiety/apathy/cognitive impairment. I now have a lot of time on my hands and will so for the next two years. I will be incarcerated here for pot and hopefully will be able to bring this device in. Is there anywhere I could get a reasonably priced device for this less than 500e? I could spend more but I do not know if its for me yet. I am a total beginner. Thanks all.

 

As other pointed out, the software used for TagSync is Bioexplorer, which costs a lot. From the hardware side, you'll soon be able to get a high quality 4 channel board for 99$ (openBCI Ganglion which was recently funded on kickstarter), but again the software used for those protocols is ancient and does not work with it.

 

Speaking of openBCI, they also created Ultracortex headset (which is currently priced at 350$) and their stretch goal is to add transcranial direct-current stimulation (tDCS).


Edited by DonManley, 20 November 2015 - 09:49 PM.


#502 thebrainstore

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 04:44 PM

What a fascinating thread, particularly with the detail given to comparing NFB states to the mind states described in vipassana and samatha meditation.

 

I am in the UK and new to neurofeedback, but have some experience of the results of extended hardcore vipassana practice. I also have (allegedly) an autism spectrum disorder.

 

The autism does make it a bit difficult for me to make sense of large amounts of text and the more I research this subject the less clear it becomes. Are there any UK members on here who could share with me some info and advice of TAGSync and similar treatments?



#503 flurr

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:54 PM

Checking in. First off, thanks to all great contributors of this thread! Very valuable information. Bought the TASR package about 2 months ago and have been training at least 4 times/week with mostly positive results. Haven't had the time or learned as much as I wanted regarding neurofeedback so far, but all in all very satisfied with the piece of technology. I do have to mention I've had more problems with migraines and short-term memory in the beginning, which partly could be explained by over-training (at that point SMR training), but it also seems to confirm some theories of on-going inflammation issues that I have (which I'm also trying to address).

 

I recently discovered the T3-T4 montage and found out that I have generally more high beta activation in this area. T3-T4 is generally advised to train as a mean of stabilising conditions such as migraine for instance, so makes even more sense for me to explore further. Now I´d like to ask if anyone is familiar with training in these area, generally I read about SMR range for T3-T4 or lower unipolar, but also ILF. I'm also very interested if anyone has attempted interhemispheric TAGSync between T3-T4 and if that would be advisable to train. 



#504 Crowstream

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 07:49 AM

@flurr

 

Yes I think many of us have tried that kind of training. It is not part of the standard protocol, so it might not be advisable. I think it is a good idea though and I have had good results doing it. I agree that interhemispheric training is very important, the Othmers will usually start their training at T3-T4 I think (although it depends on the client). I am not sure if it is possible to do SMR at T3-T4 since the SMR signal is only genereated by the sensorimotor cortex. This is around C3-C4 I think and if you record SMR in other places then I think it might just be high alpha/low beta and not SMR. Not sure though maybe it could extend all the way down to T3-T4? I have done both TAGx2 at T3-T4 and also TAGx4 with T3-T4-C3-C4 and also ILF at T3 and T4 (those are 1 channel setups) all with good effects. It did make me feel weird at times, like I was altering the balance of the hemispheres (or just placebo perhaps  :laugh:, not sure but it was strange, and good feeling I think).


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#505 VastEmptiness

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 11:05 AM

@flurr

 

Yes I think many of us have tried that kind of training. It is not part of the standard protocol, so it might not be advisable. I think it is a good idea though and I have had good results doing it. I agree that interhemispheric training is very important, the Othmers will usually start their training at T3-T4 I think (although it depends on the client). I am not sure if it is possible to do SMR at T3-T4 since the SMR signal is only genereated by the sensorimotor cortex. This is around C3-C4 I think and if you record SMR in other places then I think it might just be high alpha/low beta and not SMR. Not sure though maybe it could extend all the way down to T3-T4? I have done both TAGx2 at T3-T4 and also TAGx4 with T3-T4-C3-C4 and also ILF at T3 and T4 (those are 1 channel setups) all with good effects. It did make me feel weird at times, like I was altering the balance of the hemispheres (or just placebo perhaps  :laugh:, not sure but it was strange, and good feeling I think).

Second that. According to Peter vD., SMR can only be trained between C3/C4. It's emitted near to Cz. If you train 12-15hz anywhere else, you're training Beta. Something I really wouldn't recommend for T4. As for the inflammation and all, I'd recommend you to talk to Douglas. It's him who's actually pointed me to MTHFR and PNPO mutations after looking through my beta spindles, which led me to explore/fix methylation to great effect. I'd really recommend fixing methylation/inflammation first, as heavy NFB training is another stressor for the brain. And also I'd recommend following Douglas advice over mine at any time, because in comparison I have no idea whatsoever. www.selfhacked.com is a great resource of inflammation issues.

 

Btw @everybody: I'd really be interested in you guys' TAGsync recordings that include Cz placement in order to determine SMR activity during deeper states of meditation. I'd be glad about anyones contribution including which Channel is the Cz and maybe a time in the recording when you felt that the meditation was at its deepest point. I haven't come across anything regarding the topic as of now, but i'd guess that SMR is a piece of the puzzle. Please just PM me a dropbox link or something.

 

Now that my methylation seems to be running again, i'm heading back into TAGsync and the development of my protocol. I actually added a second layer of beta protection that any reward only comes on, when overall average high beta (19-38) is below 5u, something i target in regular NFB practice as well. It was very interesting to have all the sounds go off, when the spindles came in in order to learn to relax back into the meditation without getting anxious. However, the protocol seemed to be somewhat too strong (it really pushes Gamma phase diff. too) to right away train 60 minutes straight. It was bizarrely deep at some points and I woke up today with a headache that I used to have in the beginning of my TAGsync practice when I would do really intense sessions at night. However it would usually fade in the morning leaving me to feel good (same today). I'd guess thats the inflammation response that Douglas wrote about. Specifically if you already have a mood disorder, you wanna be extra cautious. So like any training it might be useful to turn up little by little and make sure you recover well (nutrition, antioxidants, low stress, detox, lots of sleep, etc.).

 

According to the sense of gratitude that fills me at this moment, when I go over the thread and the general feeling of connection, the Gamma training seems to have worked hehe.


Edited by VastEmptiness, 01 December 2015 - 11:09 AM.

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#506 thebrainstore

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 07:45 PM

I'm pretty much sold on this now. Does anyone have equipment they no longer want? It's proving difficult to get in Europe.



#507 lincolnn

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 09:12 PM

If anyone is in the San Francisco Bay Area and wants to get together to trade tips. Shoot me a line. lincoln (at) unfetter.com



#508 VastEmptiness

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 03:48 PM

Is anyone of you knowledgable about more advanced Neurofeeback devices like NeuroField? http://www.neurofield.org/about/ - It seems they're using the feedback to guide the intervention offered by pEMF magnets. So to say they're not just giving you the feedback, but also offer the appropriate intervention. To me the whole idea is a very sophisticated way to do therapy utilising the low latency offered by biofeedback. Not sure how advanced this is as of now, but think of collecting alot of data of say EEG, HRV, etc., then have an AI set the goal for a treatment (orienting on Z-score or whatnot) to then offer various interventions (like audio/visual feedback, conditioning modalities, pEMF, tCDS, etc.) while very quickly changing/learning the interventions if they go into the opposite directions. All the user would do is give subjective ratings of wellbeing/whatever goal in real time to the machine in it for order to learn even quicker. At the end of the process is a streamlined intervention for the individual user which can set him into any of the recorded, desired states, in a very short amount of time with close to zero effort. You could have a database of states and just have the machine set you in it whenever you wish in order to a) reinforce the neural pathways and b) learn to enter that state at will. You could also then train to get there without the machine's assistance by just getting regular feedback, which should be really easy after heaving been reinforced for a longer period. Is that just me dreaming or are we already getting there?



#509 steven acoca

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 03:55 PM

Ive used pemf and talked to dogris as well who is a very knowledgeable and informed clinician. His pEMF device (he also had a qeeg and a tdcs in his lineup) is not feedback at all. It is an active intervention that utilizes protocols to actively induce changes much like tdcs and the like. It is nit operant conditioning. When i tried the device the effect was even more noticeable than neurofeedback usually is. He also has a tagsync protocol inplemented btw. Highly recommended but obviously not cheap.

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#510 Speculosity

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 08:36 AM

Hey all,

 

I don't know if this thread is still active, but I was wondering if someone could help me please?

 

So I have tag sync, and am seemingly doing pretty okay with it, I'm able to induce frequent cross frequency coupling in all the combinations, A/T. T/G, and even A/G.

 

I followed the method in OP's post, however I don't notice ANY subjective changes in my state. I don't feel any more bliss, or awareness, or enlightenment, or enhancements in memory.

 

Was wondering if there was anything I was doing wrong?

 

 


Edited by Speculosity, 10 December 2015 - 08:45 AM.

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