32 replies to this topic

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

!!!PSA!!!  ***Public Service Announcement***

 

Tianeptine:  Proceed With Caution
(This should best perhaps be pinned or hopefully bumped with some insight occasionally for best exposure)

Tianeptine Cautionary Warning:  Alert to Proceed With Caution for Those So Engaged With Using Tianeptine or Considering Usage

Tianeptine has been further and further demonstrating what appears to be relatively high tendencies toward tolerance, withdrawals upon cessation, and potential abuse/addiction dynamics.  This is even being seem within usage that adheres to therapeutic dosages, as to withdrawals upon cessation and escalation of dosages within some with a tendency toward tolerance or misuse/abuse. 

Tianeptine has been demonstrated in the literature to bear mu-opioid agonist activity and indeed may bear closer resemblance to classical opiates in the respect of adverse effects of the aforementioned nature than prior thought.  Tianeptine as well may have some overall negative impact on the dopaminergic system, which can have impact within tolerance and addiction potentials.

Certainly at this stage it is not something to perhaps be dismissed as an outright agent that is to best be avoided; however, it would appear that the potentials for these adverse effects are best to be made well known, understood, and respected.  Freedom of choice is still the rule as per how we see it at TeamTLR, though within that we are as well vigorous proponents of education/knowledge, personal responsibility, and harm reduction. 

Notably, most substances can have worth if they are used with adherence in a manner that can be best integrated for therapeutic/beneficial indications.  However, overall Tianeptine appears to have more potential as a substance that simply masks underlying conditions, rather than be one that yields true core benefit of substance.  This is is within the theory of some substance are more of a nature to be mind/body/'spirit' trophic (tendency for correcting underlying dysregulated states or enhancing 'normal' states), while others overall are more atrophic in this respect (diminishing core regulatory states).  Generally those substances that may 'feel good' or appear to provide 'remedy' in the short-term, but within they do not so much provide real benefit to underlying dysregulation, will have tendencies to outcomes that may be undesirable.  Tianeptine, as with most 'therapeutics' released by Big Pharma, appears to be more within the atrophic category.  Over time these substance tend to have greater potential to diminish physiological integrity, rather than support and build.

The jury is not as yet out, but the evidence seems to perhaps be gathering to support this may be a substance very well best avoided by those with any tendency toward addictions, and as well for those to be wary that even within therapeutic use there may be some 'potential pitfalls' that one must be aware of.  It does not appear to be at all a substance that truly affords a best means to provide benefit for underlying core dysregulation; though if respected and well integrated it can provide worth as an adjunct agent used within a protocol that better tries to address core dysregulated states.  For example, for those who are not of an addictive disposition, such may best be of an nature of short-term usage and/or intermittent "as needed" usage, within proper therapeutic guidelines.

Note, many substance that may be 'far from perfect' still can have some true worth, within proper care and application.  The difference within some compounds between being a profound poison or profound therapeutic is sometimes of course simply a matter of dose.  To note further, within the prevalence of abuse/misuse, there appears a strong possibility for Tianeptine to be given a Scheduled status and perhaps removed from the market.  Freedom of choice should always reign above all, however, proper knowledge and education is fundamental to making any decision of an informed and well-considered nature.

 

Kindly take care to respect all substance.

 

Best Regards,

VI of TeamTLR

P.S. Please feel free to cut and paste this if you 'inhabit' other forums and groups where such may seem to be of benefit to note such an alert.

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 22 August 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[mindpatch]

Thanks for that.  Although it is something that you have in your inventory currently, it takes integrity as a business to issue a warning about its possible dangers as new information becomes available. 

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

The ethos of TeamTLR is one of freedom of choice and of enabling optimization toward progressive research goals.  Science, knowledge, compassion, and wisdom, toward the betterment of humanity.

Obviously education, harm reduction, and integrative cooperation all best foster these movements and the betterment of 'the community'.

 

Within freedom of choice we must look to make choices 'wisely', as well as bear an obligation to assist others to do so.  That is a certainly a function of Longecity and other such sites.

As a community we should always look to take on a responsibility to provide information as best we can to enable betterment.  Supporting those that provide that which is within this scope obviously supports us all.

[drg]

Knowledge as in letting us know what is in the optimized extracts/agents?

[Kyle McGill]

I can attest to the potential dangers of this substance, as I have just (thankfully) gotten out of a 3-4 week long dependency, that was growing in dosage by the week. Fortunately upon reading about its opioid mechanisms and how it relates to my prior opiate addiction issues, I was able to cessate entirely on the Friday, suffer some pretty terrible withdrawal symptoms over Saturday and Sunday, and be well enough to function at work beginning on Monday. Needless to say, there is a definite risk for abuse with this drug, and although I do not discount my prior addiction issues, I highly recommend caution when considering trying this drug. On the plus side, I do believe that after the withdrawal symptoms subsided completely, that I felt surprisingly better overall than I had before taking it. Make of all of this what you will.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

Hey Kyle,

 

Thanks for sharing your experience and insights.  Just a note, though I like the sound of 'cessate', its not a formal word; though perhaps it should be

[Introspecta]

Has anyone heard of a person using Tianeptine while on suboxone? Possible to alleviate WD's? Would it even work on an opiate dependent person or would it perhaps be like tramadol where you feel the serotonergic effects but none of the opiate effects?

[d1ce]

This is ridiculous and unfounded. TeamTLR has been spreading a ton of nonsense lately. I like how you explicitly tell people to spam your message. Keep the BS to your own website please. 

[Ceretropic]

Holy shit, you guys like hearing yourselves talk...

 

Tianeptine is a very mild μ opioid agonist (Ki Human of 383±183 nM, and EC50 Human of 194±70 nM,  and EC50 Mouse of 641±120 nM for G-protein activation). It is very well tolerated, and has a lot more to its mechanisms than the minor opioid affinities. We've sold thousands of bottles of it now, and have zero serious side effect reports. We have only had one person taking 100mg doses report withdrawals, which is to be expected when overdosing that much. Kratom has much much higher affinities, and is a lot more recreational than tianeptine is. That is going to be scheduled long before tianeptine is. Even then, I highly doubt it. Not to mention the fact that this antidepressant has helped so many people turn their lives around. Customers write us all the time saying that they have tried everything, and only tianeptine has been able to help them to start getting themselves into a healthy mental state. This post does the substance a disservice, and makes people focus on the almost inconsequential opioid activities, while ignoring all the others.

 

Most of this post, and all your others, are filled with a bunch of ranting, but no substance. What could you possibly be trying to achieve here? Is tianeptine abuse suddenly a big issues now in your heads? Perhaps for a handful of people around the world, it might be. But compared to other legal opioid agonists? That's just ridiculous! So the only thing that I think could be motivating you is advertising. You want to keep yourselves in front of everyone, by making posts about whatever ridiculous idea that pops into your heads. Here's an idea! How about you make products that people want to buy, and tell your customers what they are taking! Then you won't need to annoy everyone with your wordy and unscientific ranting. They will come to you, because you are not only offering them something that improves their lives, but respecting them enough to tell them the compounds they are putting into their bodies. Because right now all I see is a company so afraid of competition, that they will keep their own customers in the dark about what they are taking. That is a sad way to run a respectable business...

 

So you want to warn people about potential health issues with nootropics? I would start by releasing the ingredients in your products. Then people will be able to make informed decisions about what they are taking, rather than taking your word for it. "Trust us. We're professionals..." That shit works on TV, but not in the real world. Tianeptine, like everything else, must be respected. But it is a known variable in a sea of unknown substances.

 

Here are some pKi values for real μ opioid agonists:

 

7-hydroxymitragynine (Kratom)- 8.01 nM

Morphine- 4.55 nM

Methadone- 3.16 nM

Naltrexone- 0.39 nM

Oxycodone- 23.4 nM

[firebeastm]

Totally agree with "this may be a substance very well best avoided by those with any tendency toward addictions". I will repost my post on reddit about my addiction to Tianeptine:

 

I have used Tianeptine quite heavy in the past. First of all, I never felt its effects by taking 1 tablet.. or 2 or 3.. I needed like 8-10 to feel good for a few hours. This was getting too expensive, so I ordered bulk powder... my dosages and tolerance kept increasing and the last 30 days of my Tianeptine addiction I have been using about 1.2-1.5 gram a day.

I had to quit cold turkey, because my new shipment of Tianeptine accidentally got stuck at customs and that was some really hellish time... No sleep at all for 72 hours, deep depression, aching body, diarrhea, anxiety, etc etc.. needed like 2 weeks to recover from that shit.

I know, I was dumb, just wanted to warn you - dont play with this compound, don't take more than recommended dosage. Personally, I will never touch this stuff again.

 

[zatoitchi]

I find it amazing that people exceed the dosage of a medication and are surprised of the negative effects. Try this strategy with many supplements or over the counter medications and you will find yourself very ill or worse. Be responsible and use all with a mature perspective.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

I find it amazing that people exceed the dosage of a medication and are surprised of the negative effects. Try this strategy with many supplements or over the counter medications and you will find yourself very ill or worse. Be responsible and use all with a mature perspective.

 

My friend, you do not quite therein understand 'crisis mentality'/'addiction mentality', tolerance, and other addiction dynamics.

 

This for many is not something they are doing in essence solely by choice.  It is generally not within a lack of logical understanding.

 

Certain substances have a degree for a potential toward abuse, addiction, 'craving', withdrawals, and tolerance, and as such it is certainly of merit for people to be aware where such a substance is displaying these characteristics and outcomes.

 

Notably, everyone is quite aware of the potential pitfalls of classical opiates/opioids (heroin, oxycodone, morphine, et al.) and certain dopaminergic agents (amphetamines, methylphenidate, et al.). Tianeptine appears to act upon these pathways in a substantial enough manner to cause a potential dysregulation of consequence that in the least it is best people are aware of and are mindful of.

 

Awareness and education is a first key to help those so prone to these tendencies be mindful to look to avoid such substances.  As well, even for those not prone to classical addictive tendencies, there appears some potential for tolerance and withdrawals that are factors best understood.  Fostering education and awareness in such instances can never of course be a bad thing.

 

TeamTLR is about doing all to foster anti-addiction measures, as a core directive of Project TLR and its platform.  Indeed, as an ideal and as you so stated, use of all substances is to be best within a responsible perspective.  However, education as well as other methods are needed to best ensure some progress to helping people avoid addiction, as well as when so entrapped by such to have sound means to foster rapid and painless addiction cessation.

 

Any who wish to support this in any way, we greatly appreciate any way you may wish to offer support or assistance.  Thank you!

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 25 August 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Ark]

This stuff is therapeutic when used properly.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

This stuff is therapeutic when used properly.

Indeed it can be for many, no one is contending otherwise.

 

Simply that it as well has potentials of a concerning nature of which an awareness within such factors are best made clear.

 

Note, the factor as regards a potential for withdrawals upon cessation of treatment is still something that as well appears to need to be better understood and evaluated as well within all this.

 

Please note, and as I believe was made clear within the initial statement and contentions, this is not a proclamation that Tianeptine is a wholly worthless and dangerous substance; but just that caution, awareness, and further insight are all in the best interests of better understanding and respecting this agent.

Edited by VERITAS INCORRUPTUS, 25 August 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[Proudmoore]

Thank you very much for the insightful opinions from both sides of the barricade. If anyone wants to try and experiment then let be it but everyone has been warned

[NineLives]

Certain substances have a degree for a potential toward abuse, addiction, 'craving', withdrawals, and tolerance, and as such it is certainly of merit for people to be aware where such a substance is displaying these characteristics and outcomes.

 

Notably, everyone is quite aware of the potential pitfalls of classical opiates/opioids (heroin, oxycodone, morphine, et al.) and certain dopaminergic agents (amphetamines, methylphenidate, et al.). Tianeptine appears to act upon these pathways in a substantial enough manner to cause a potential dysregulation of consequence that in the least it is best people are aware of and are mindful of.

 

 

Did you just compare tianeptine to opiates or powerful stims? 

Also I would like to point out that dependence and addiction are different things, while there are reports of people going through grams of this in a day!!! which fits the bill of addiction those reports are wildly scarce when you take into account how many people are taking this. You might become dependent on this if you take it at say 60mgs/day for 2 months but that`s a different story. 

 

Oh and I think it would be useful to actually gather peoples testimonies about tianeptine usage and see what pattern of dependence emerges and how the dose and time spent on it would affect the symptoms.

 

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

Hi NineLives,

 

Tianeptine does not seem to have the powerful addiction-paradigm potential  (potentials to tolerance, craving, withdrawals, abuse, dependence, etc) as most potent dopaminergic stimulants and classical opiates, but still appears to have enough of a potential to warrant concern, caution, and care.  That was the intent in relating the apparent nature of this substance in this regard as conveyed within the initial statement.

 

It would indeed be great to have such an overview as you have proposed, though it takes a great deal of work to compile and assess such.  For now though it seems best just to alert people as best as possible as to that which is important for consideration and awareness with Tianeptine usage.

[Max Headroom Incident]

I agree that tianeptine should be used carefully (or not at all by people with a history of drug addiction).  But the abuse potential is really low compared to even mild things like kratom.  I've used it for 7 months now and have never been tempted to abuse it...and I have a history of opiate abuse/dependence. 

 

It would be a tragedy to see it get banned because of irresponsible idiots abusing it.  For that reason I feel the warning is justified.  We don't need any bad press for a drug that helps so many people.  The antidepressant selection in the U.S. is shitty and we need all the options we can get.  If you're looking for a fast high, find something else.  There are far better options for that anyway. 

 

Of course you're going to have withdrawals if you're using more than the recommended dose (12.5 mg three times daily) or keep increasing your dose.  The solution is simple: STOP DOING THAT SHIT. 

Edited by Max Headroom Incident, 26 October 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[nowayout]

Has anyone heard of a person using Tianeptine while on suboxone? Possible to alleviate WD's? Would it even work on an opiate dependent person or would it perhaps be like tramadol where you feel the serotonergic effects but none of the opiate effects?

 

I certainly feel the opiate effects of tramadol.  Especially when starting tramadol, it gives me significant euphoria that kicks in after a couple of hours, which is not typical of serotonergics, which take weeks to kick in and don't tend to cause euphoria.  Tramadol also causes terrible withdrawal symptoms of the opioid type upon cessation, in addition to its SNRI withdrawal effects. 

 

Tianeptine seems to reduce the withdrawal symptoms from tramadol a little, which makes sense if it agonizes mu-opioid receptors. 
 

Edited by nowayout, 28 October 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[Babychris]

And there is no risk by using the dozens of stuff you have untested on humain lool ?

[heymazing]

I find it amazing that people exceed the dosage of a medication and are surprised of the negative effects. Try this strategy with many supplements or over the counter medications and you will find yourself very ill or worse. Be responsible and use all with a mature perspective.

 

This. 

 

So much of what is really beneficial when taken responsibly and for prescriptive reasons (as opposed to recreational) is being maligned because of ridiculous overuse. For the past 10 month or so I have been taking 1/4 of a vicodin tablet 3-5 times per month only, with excellent results in helping my depression and no symptoms of withdrawal (on the 23 days per month I don't take it) whatsoever. So many of these substances really COULD be used successfully and beneficially if taken with the logical mindset of addressing a specific issue. But because of ridiculous overdosing they get a bad rap. It's extremely frustrating to those of us who are using such things responsibly and with truly life-enhancing results. 

[VerdeGo]

A quarter of a tablet would probably include 2.5 mg hydrocodone and a quarter of 325 mg of tylenol, if your tablets are 10/325. Perhaps the benefits are coming from the anti inflammatory properties? Depression has been linked to brain inflammation, so if this is helping your depression, that would make sense. However I don't see how it could carry over into days you are not taking it. The stuff doesn't stay in your system for an extended amount of time, but I'm glad you're getting benefits from it for your depression.

 

But with some nootropics and other drugs, there are no set dosing guidelines, and everyone seems to react differently. At least opiates are well-studied and generally safe in prescribed amounts (as long as one doesn't become addicted and abuse the substance). Tylenol appears far more dangerous than the hydrocodone, which is why they scaled back the amount of tylenol they put in these tablets. I'm not surprised you haven't experienced withdrawal in the menial amount you take. If it works, keep it up.

[nowayout]

A quarter of a tablet would probably include 2.5 mg hydrocodone and a quarter of 325 mg of tylenol, if your tablets are 10/325. Perhaps the benefits are coming from the anti inflammatory properties? Depression has been linked to brain inflammation, so if this is helping your depression, that would make sense. However I don't see how it could carry over into days you are not taking it. The stuff doesn't stay in your system for an extended amount of time, but I'm glad you're getting benefits from it for your depression.

 

2.5 mg hycdrocodone doesn't sound like a lot but it can certainly cause some euphoria in someone who hasn't become tolerant to it. 

 

There is a definite dearth of immediate-onset antidepressants - opioids are the only immediate-onset ADs that I know of.  In my experience opioids can be very useful for someone who suffers from Recurrent Brief Depression (e.g. deep depressions lasting a few days) or unbearable situational depressions (breakups or other losses) and I think they could definitely have great utility for emergency treatment of depression and suicide prevention.  This is just my experience and I am not making any recommendations.  You won't get tolerance or withdrawal if you use them for a few days, BUT it is unfortunately easy to like them too much.   

 

By the way, opioids may also have strong anti-inflammatory effects, as a brief search of Pubmed shows. 

Edited by nowayout, 23 April 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[Heisenburger]

I can’t personally speak to the issue of addiction/tolerance, because complete immunity to opiate abuse runs on both sides of my family. We can take any natural opium derivative or any synthetic analog until it’s coming out of our ears, for any period of time, and simply discontinue use without ill effects. However, I can personally attest that taking more than the accepted therapeutic dose of tianeptine will have the classic opiate effect of inducing absolutely horrific constipation. I will (sheepishly) admit that after a particularly crappy day at work, I have occasionally come home and taken a “let’s get happy” dose of tianeptine. The next day it was as if I had stuck a concrete butt plug in my nether orifice and superglued it in place. Needless to say, I’ve discontinued this practice.

[smccomas01]

Heisenburger thank you for the visual.... 

[Heisenburger]

Always glad to oblige.   I was particularly amused by the perfect juxtaposition of my post and the username of the person who posted immediately before me.

[smccomas01]

HA HA that is sooo bad 

[nowayout]

Always glad to oblige.   I was particularly amused by the perfect juxtaposition of my post and the username of the person who posted immediately before me.

 

Haha!  Quite ironically, I am immune to that particular side effect, no matter how many opioids I have taken. 
 

[Max Headroom Incident]

Tianeptine constipation is definitely as bad/worse than other opiates for me.  I use it in place of Imodium when I feel an IBS attack coming on (it's actually being tested as an IBS drug, so yeah).  It also upsets my stomach more than other opies.  It causes a weird gnawing sensation like I'm hungry, even if I've just eaten.  That alone prevents me from abusing it. 

[Heisenburger]

Fast forward three or four years. What is the general consensus now in the nootropics business and among long-term users of tianeptine? Although it pains me to say it, TeamTLR’s advisory now seems to have more merit in light of four years of experience with this compound, particularly the sodium form. The tianeptine subreddit is clamoring with posts from people who have been abusing this drug and want desperately to be free of it. I don’t know whether or not this represents only a tiny fraction of the population of tianeptine users, but there is absolutely no question now that abusing this drug at 50 times the therapeutic amount for an extended period of time can be a recipe for disaster. I have personally seen somebody going through withdrawal from usage levels this high, and it looks like classic heroin or morphine withdrawal. I know many people who believe that this drug is more difficult to discontinue than IV heroin. Almost all of the major online vendors have stopped selling the sodium form. There haven’t been any reasons stated, but I’m guessing that it was just too difficult to sell tianeptine, with a constant barrage of orders and telephone inquiries from desperate individuals overwhelming the vendors’ available resources. So what is the current thinking among the major sellers of nootropics regarding tianeptine sodium?