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Oral Pregnenolone and DHEA nightmare

pregnenolone dhea excitotoxicity excitotoxic gaba nmda ssri benzo benzodiazepine withdrawal

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#91 genereader

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 04:06 AM

>> "episodes of extreme depersonalization/derealization."

 

erratic, 

 

I saw something tonight on Ray Peat's forum that reminded me of your ordeal.  User kinecticz posted this warning about pregnenolone  ( http://www.raypeatfo...opic.php?t=5452 ): 

 

"I can tell you that too much standard oral pregnenolone DOES cause issues if your basal metabolic rate is low and mitochondria are damaged.

ACTH suppression and depersonalisation are known to occur and horrendous to get out of...."

 

 

Have you checked your ACTH and cortisol levels? 


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#92 AlexCanada

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 05:50 AM

>> "episodes of extreme depersonalization/derealization."

 

erratic, 

 

I saw something tonight on Ray Peat's forum that reminded me of your ordeal.  User kinecticz posted this warning about pregnenolone  ( http://www.raypeatfo...opic.php?t=5452 ): 

 

"I can tell you that too much standard oral pregnenolone DOES cause issues if your basal metabolic rate is low and mitochondria are damaged.

ACTH suppression and depersonalisation are known to occur and horrendous to get out of...."

 

 

Have you checked your ACTH and cortisol levels? 

 

 

How would one recover from pregnenolone use? Initially it provided some short term benefits but down the road I'd just feel worse and off.

 

My ACTH and cortisol are very low.  My bio-available Testosterone is 1.0, Range 4-17.  My total Testosterone is 2.3,  Range 8-32.    My hormones were low before but even worse now. 

 

I really want to nourish my ACTH and adrenals somehow. 


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#93 genereader

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 09:10 PM

How would one recover from pregnenolone use? Initially it provided some short term benefits but down the road I'd just feel worse and off.

 

My ACTH and cortisol are very low.  My bio-available Testosterone is 1.0, Range 4-17.  My total Testosterone is 2.3,  Range 8-32.    My hormones were low before but even worse now. 

 

I really want to nourish my ACTH and adrenals somehow. 

 

 

AlexCanada,

 

I don't know... those numbers are so low, I wonder if you might have worse problems than just weak adrenal output.  Does your doctor have any insight?

 

You could try asking kinecticz on Ray Peat's forum if he has any ideas.

???

 



#94 Christian Hunter

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 02:35 PM

Not sure how symptoms could last for years due to pregnenolone and DHEA, I thought these leave the body at some point? They are water soluble last time I checked.

According to Jay Goldstein's CFS theory, excessive NMDA stimulation can shift you into an unpleasant neural state that is self-perpetuating unless you do something about it. Martin Pall has a complementary set of biochemical vicious cycles that are also self-perpetuating after the stressor is gone.

Krillin,
Could you tell us specifically what Jay Goldstein advocated be done to "shift out" of an unpleasant, self-perpetuating, neural state?

Edited by Christian Hunter, 15 September 2015 - 02:36 PM.


#95 Turnbuckle

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 12:46 PM

 

Nope. Not taking anything else whatsoever.
 

 

 

 

That could be the problem. DHEA is known to shift neural mitochondria to higher metabolic levels, which would make you feel great for a while, but once your endogenous antioxidants become depleted, this could result in mitochondrial damage. So some recommend taking mitochondrial antioxidants along with DHEA.

 

You will find similar cautions and recommendations about DHEA on this page.

 

Possibly the best mitochondria antioxidants are the endogenous ones, like CoQ-10 and reduced L-Glutathione (Setria brand). Also PQQ, another antioxidant that is known to enhance mitochondrial biogenesis. I would suggest C60, but that is entirely experimental and some here with fluoroquinolone damage have reported very bad results with it.


Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 September 2015 - 01:31 PM.

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#96 UniqueNewYork

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 04:37 AM

I do think that NMDA, GABA, Dopamine receptors are all likely suspects. Pregnenolone works on all of them, then he ( erraticpattern ) stopped cold and got completely shut down.

 

Glad to see Turnbuckle on here with the DHEA/mitochondria info. I've taken quite a bit of PQQ, coenzyme Q-10 over the past few years. Also Glutathione stimulating supplements and foods. It might have been what helped me with my own situation. I try to keep all of these supplements around and also have recently started kava 300mg at night for 10 weeks to stimulate GABA receptor density. I then plan to cycle the kava every 6 months. So far it's had nothing but positive effects.

 

Erratic, it's been a year, where are you? How are you doing now?



#97 stephen_b

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 03:55 AM

I have had very good results with both DHEA and pregnenolone. Especially pregnenolone, which I find to be great for concentration and especially memory (I'm a 51 year old male and I find 50-100 mg to be best; in fact maybe 75 would be near the sweet spot). DHEA I like occasionally for exercise recovery, but I am finding alternatives to that, and I think pregnenolone by itself is all I need.



#98 UniqueNewYork

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 10:25 AM

I should have been a little more clear that I was referring to pregnenolone sulfate.



#99 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 08:59 PM

I have a ton of neuro issues, arising from Lyme/other infections. Am actually worried I may have a prion disease. I've had bad reactions to a lot of things, inc. NSI-189 and pregnenolone (though at the time I tried preg. I was having bad reactions to anything that affects brain function, inc calcium, melatonin, and amino acids).

I'm wondering if i should try preg. again... might it be useful in neurogenesis?



#100 UniqueNewYork

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 05:21 AM

If you're worried about prion diseases look at the research into lichens like Parmelia Sulcata in particular. Very eye opening that the deer populations that were drinking water known to be contaminated by carcasses of cows with Bovine spongiform never contracted the disease. There have been investigations into their diet which featured lichens, which may have played a part in protecting them from prion-like diseases ( Deer populations are also exposed to ticks and thus Lyme bacteria constantly ). One study in particular showed that the lichen parmelia sulcata destroyed prions on contact when put anywhere near it in a lab setting. Even water that previously contained lichens was enough to destroy the prions.

 

What you're talking about could be part prion-like, part borrelia bacteria, HHV-6 virus, babesia/malarial protozoans, or even part man-made combinations of all 4. Conspiracies abound but there could be reasonable explanations for possible hybridization and transmission. Pulsed antibiotics/anti-malarials like minocycline and flagyl over months do seem to help as might lichens for prion disease. The Buhner protocol apparently has a lot of positive anecdotal reports using herbs like Japanese knotweed and Cat's claw for Lyme-like illness.

 

I'm going to repeat something that I mentioned earlier in this thread that may or may not be related which involved me taking a small amount of dhea in 2005 ( A mix of 15mg of calcium carbonate with 7mg of dhea ) and niacin within 1/2 an hour of each other and having a near permanent state of GABA/serotonin receptor stimulation that lasted for 6-7 years as a result. I can't explain why. I had overall relaxed mood, no anxiety, lowered sex drive as if I'd taken an SSRI which I've never taken. There may have been serotonin syndrome symptoms overlapping with some of this without even without taking anything. Then when this wore off slowly between 2011-2012 anxiety slowly came back, sleep disruption, seizures, new pronounced ocd and a very nervous and low functioning adrenal state. ( Low dhea, gaba and serotonin, dopamine seemed pretty evident too ).

 

I suspect a Lyme-like illness in my case which began just before all of this with a swollen gouty arthritic knee in which the swelling and pain were excruciating and would rise up in 2-3 hours and cause near shock-wave convulsions of pain. They would happen every 4 months and slowly dissipated over a period of 4-5 years. These pain episodes were later controlled well with regular old ibuprofen. Later I developed spine/neck stiffness and several neurological pains, cluster headaches, aural migraines, gut inflammation, motor nerve problems and cerebral hypoxia and dysfunction. Transient, migrating intense flareups of pain that would come out of nowhere and disappear over and over.

 

I took antibiotics over the past year which seem to be keeping things at bay or reducing the bacterial load ( whatever strain was never confirmed through blood tests ).

 

Lichens are generally harmless and I will be starting some shortly as well. As well as plenty of probiotics with bifidobacteria to keep the gut/immune function stabilized. Along with ALCAR, lipioc acid, lecithin ( for choline ), trimethyglycine for mitochondrial function and repair. Also ashwagandha, resveratrol, quercetin and nigella sativa, milk thistle, NAC and whey protein for glutathione production. Never mind the Klonopin ( sparingly ) that I occasionally have to take to combat herx-like acidic brain flare-ups and panic that feel like my blood is on fire. Curcumin, omega 3 and small amounts of melatonin seem to help with these flare ups. These all have been shown to reduce or neutralize quinolinic acid and lipopolysaccharides/endotoxins from killing bacteria. Then liver cleansing every so often to not recirculate what I'm trying to eliminate. A lot of speculation involved here and possibly some woo-woo science but what I'm doing seems to be working. Fingers crossed.

 

One other feature that is a monkey wrench into this is the fact that massive amounts of vitamin D seem to restore gut, brain and nerve function in many people with anxiety/depression and chronic pain except for those who appear to have vitamin d receptor dysfunction observed in a subset with chronic infection. Vitamin d can make people much better or much worse depending on their bacterial/viral load. It can cause some bad immune flareups. The bacteria might have hijacked your best system for getting rid of it. Pulsed antibiotics with incremental increases of vitamin d could be beneficial.

 

Hope some of this helps.


Edited by UniqueNewYork, 13 December 2016 - 05:36 AM.

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#101 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 06:54 PM

I just tried pregnenolone again and had a similar response to the first (and last) time I tried it in May. Only took 1/5 of a 25 mg capsule, so around 5mg, and had a sharp worsening of dysautonomia: low BP (so low my machine won't even register it), weak fluttering heartbeat, dizziness, and labored breathing. What gives? Anyone know how specifically pregnenolone may be affecting my autonomic nervous system? Sorry if i've asked this before, my memory is really bad of late.



#102 monowav

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:39 AM

Yeah I get a bad stress response from pregnenolone as well.

I wonder if the negative symptoms are preg activating PXR, causing dextox-like symptoms. R

Or it could be preg increasing insulin causing hypoglycmia. R



#103 Omega 3 Snake Oil

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:12 PM

Yeah I get a bad stress response from pregnenolone as well.

I wonder if the negative symptoms are preg activating PXR, causing dextox-like symptoms. R

Or it could be preg increasing insulin causing hypoglycmia. R

I think it has to do with preg. downregulating GABA-A receptors...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2278584/



#104 monowav

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:57 AM

 

Yeah I get a bad stress response from pregnenolone as well.

I wonder if the negative symptoms are preg activating PXR, causing dextox-like symptoms. R

Or it could be preg increasing insulin causing hypoglycmia. R

I think it has to do with preg. downregulating GABA-A receptors...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2278584/

 

It's crazy. I felt the stress response 8 hours after taking it. The GABA-AR downregulation seems almost paradoxical. 



#105 Believer

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:30 AM

What adult person on planet Earth just takes pills without knowing what they do, their mechanisms of effect, their side-effects. The OP seems highly exaggerated. Preg. and dhea are harmless supplements, except for a little bit of paranoia and such they may temporarily induce. You make it sound like you took some psychedelic drug and then become brain-damaged.


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#106 UniqueNewYork

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 10:57 AM

Thats not quite true. I had a very strong reaction to taking niacin and dhea together about 10 years ago. It was like a psychedelic drug experience and very, very intense. It wasnt psychosomatic in nature because I'm not susceptible to that. The experience was jarring and life altering for me. Thankfully it was for the better. I had zero anxiety for several years afterwards which was a new experience for me being a lifelong worrier and anxiety prone. I couldn't even make myself anxious after this experience and I tried. It makes no sense to me at all and didn't seem to add up but it happened. Thats why I responded to the OP. I had a reversal of this effect in 2014 which was equally as jarring but in a very bad way. It left me with what seemed like no neurotransmitters working aside from maybe norepinephrine because I was panicked for months and suffering from partial or frontal lobe seizures, erratic sleep patterns and a complete loss of any normal mental status. It was akin to a form of psychosis that lasted for 2 1/2 years. Whats strange is the experience I had was described very accurately by the painter Edvard Munch who painted 'The scream'. Munch didn't explain what brought this on and didnt seem to know. His description was detailed and like reading of my own experience verbatim. His episode lasted for about the same duration of 2 1/2 years. He only had it once and hopefully I will only do that once. It might have been brought on by an artificial stimulation of certain receptors and then the resulting washout at some point where some parts of the brain were not prepared or not responding due to possible overuse. Kind of like stopping an SSRI cold ( which Ive never taken ).

If I had my choice I would rather have dealt with worry and anxiety rather than the avalanche of psychic pain 9 years later. I paid for it all and then some. Im not sure I'll ever be right but I have faith that if I got into the first good state from bad and then went from good to horrible, then the plasticity is good for anything at all.

Im not completely ruling out the possibility that the dhea was laced with something. In fact I kept the bottle and still have it. I might have it tested at some point.

Edited by UniqueNewYork, 28 December 2017 - 11:32 AM.


#107 sthira

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 04:15 PM

Whats strange is the experience I had was described very accurately by the painter Edvard Munch who painted 'The scream'. Munch didn't explain what brought this on and didnt seem to know. His description was detailed and like reading of my own experience verbatim. His episode lasted for about the same duration of 2 1/2 years. He only had it once and hopefully I will only do that once.


https://en.m.wikiped...:The_Scream.jpg

Munch described: "I was walking along the road with two of my friends. Then the sun set. The sky suddenly turned into blood, and I felt something akin to a touch of melancholy. I stood still, leaned against the railing, dead tired. Above the blue black fjord and city hung clouds of dripping, rippling blood. My friends went on and again I stood, frightened with an open wound in my breast. A great scream pierced through nature.”

He was productive after the experience, and did some nice work. Is there any way you can follow that part of his example, and now use your own similar experience to help deepen your interests, creations, or passions in life?

https://www.quora.co...n-his-paintings

#108 UniqueNewYork

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 04:52 AM

Absolutely and that's a great thing to suggest. I've learned a lot about myself through the process and accepting it has made it not something necessarily negative but perhaps necessary. So much stuff comes up and let's you see where you're imbalanced. I see that the human condition can be perfect in a sense that it can be brought to optimal function by understanding certain things and discovering and removing the imbalanced parts of the self. Whether these be physical or mental/emotional. If we can get past the early traumas and insults caused, we have way more possibilities. Some of those things we've experienced have embedded themselves in us and we end up repeating familiar patterns and thoughts and emotions that drag us into a downward spiral, stuck in them. These patterns get revealed and expressed through some types of illness. Breaking through them is a great thing.

 

I've found for me that the mental fortitude of acceptance and flexibility is the greatest strength. Learning to meditate has allowed me to gain greater self control over the mind and emotions by allowing and accepting them. Standing on the banks watching the river instead of getting thrown about by the currents. First, observe the mind and emotions. After that, observe the mind and emotions. Whatever happens is a great bonus and a gift to learn and grow and choose to agree with it. It;s mine. There is nothing in this world that can heal you as well as your own attitude and acceptance. Scrambling madly to fix something or prevent another. Pitting yourself against what is happening in resistance is an illness itself especially if you're negative about it or conflicted. As far as the Eastern views of healing go, inner conflict is the greatest cause of disease. I know that there can be of course, a physical cause for many diseases and some will take their course regardless of attitude, however those are far, far more rare to encounter and are much better managed and controlled when the spirit is willing. Unification in the spirit is to me the most important thing and everything is possible when that happens. At the very least life is rich, rewarding and a joy to be expressed. Really living. Like when you were a child and just able to enjoy things without all the extra ideas, evaluation, judgement, worry, ego stuff. "Be like the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven". Truer words were never spoken. People are sometimes trying to outsmart themselves and caught up in a game of mental vanity. You don't get stupider when you enjoy life as it is. You don't lose anything or  stop caring about making it better. You just do it more easily and much more efficiently and naturally as needed and that becomes something innate. We are far, far more capable of becoming anything we wish than we realize. We can shape ourselves into anything, transform, morph and change into greater things than we've known. That's a truly creative experience. Creating ourselves and being at cause in our lives for everything that happens. You know, instead of a victim mentality which is just a silly, unfortunate choice we make without realizing it.


Edited by UniqueNewYork, 14 January 2018 - 05:04 AM.


#109 UniqueNewYork

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:31 AM

To put it another way, many people will try to enter a room where they believe something good is waiting for them and find a door that's locked and say "My key won't work! What is wrong with my key? And why is this door locked?" and get angry and bitter and frustrated. There is no way through. 'Why have I been led here? This is a trick! A horrible joke". The frustration eats at them. "This should NOT be happening. Everything is wrong now". An enlightened person might stop fussing and do a magical thing. Stop and slowly turn. Turning to see a long hallway full of endless doors. They say, "oh, okay this door is locked". and continue to the next. If that isn't open they continue to the next. Why did we go to the first door? What was it that told us that was the one? We believed it was. Someone might have said so or we might have believed it and thought it was the ONLY door. We didn't see anything else really. If we ask others they might say "Oh that door, I don't know. I think that door way over there has something". They're never sure. Some try and lead us to some other door and we go on our best hunches and guesses. A key might not even be needed. It;s already open and what do we think? Surely every door won't be locked. Or maybe it's a big room they might come across, or a window or an escalator. Maybe they'll check a hundred doors or 5 or 1,000 or go out on the street and roam around exploring. At no point would they say that "Fate designed it so nothing is open to me!". They haven't looked everywhere or paid attention to see what there is, or tried every single door and the doors are endless. It might be door 10,607 and what else is there to do? Patience, resolve and opportunity are all together. What is, is. Opportunity is never, ever lost. Unless we sit on the floor in front of one locked door and never turn from it and grieve that. Even if OUR door was the very one next to it. It's a pretty good analogy of opportunity versus believing you're a victim of life in some way and being stuck in that idea because 'something happened'. Whatever happened is a challenge to your old ideas, which you might discover have not been as wonderful as you thought.


Edited by UniqueNewYork, 14 January 2018 - 05:53 AM.

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#110 researcher

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 08:14 AM

An interesting similar story from the reviews section of a pregnenolone MLM formulation on Amazon:
 

Reviewed in the United States on May 31, 2016

DANGERSOUS!!! Not just this brand but all brands of pregnenolone. Before rushing in to take this, best read this as this is what has happened to me. I trusted my NP to know what she was doing, and failed to research this as I should...my mistake. If your body metabolizes ANYTHING slowly right on down to advil, you need to avoid this hormone at all costs (as well as many others). Pregnenolone is at the top of the hormonal cascade meaning that everything is made from it as far as steroidal hormones (testosterone, aldosterone, cortisol, & DHEA.. Estradiol & progesterone synthesis is impaired without a uterus and ovaries. Pregnenolone is also a GABA (one of the "feel good" neurotransmitters) antagonist which means that GABA cannot bind to the receptor sites because of the pregnenolone. My experience with this has been a nightmare. I first took it approximately 3 months ago at half dosage, without any side effects (nor did I notice any benefit!). About 5 weeks ago, I noticed that something was very wrong, fear of driving (never had it in my life), feeling overwhelmed, depressed, anxious and unable to sleep. Not realizing what it was, I thought it was a bit more stress in my life. Not true! Then came the onset of severe palpitations, extreme terror and inability to function coupled with extreme agitation and anger, sensory overload and thoughts of imminent death. Bottom line, I am awaiting results of wearing a holter heart monitor to see how much damage this has done to my heart, praying that it will return to normal and I won't have to have some very serious interventions. So, do your research on this hormone BEFORE you let anyone talk you into taking it...it does not always do what it should with everyone. One online proponent of it years ago has radically changed his tune in recent months as to how much of this substance most people should take. His recommendation? 1-3 mgs with holidays from it. Your liver is in place to protect you from this type of thing, this particular brand is micronized and made lipid soluble so that it avoids the liver on the first pass and goes directly to the blood stream. (Read the label). This in and of itself is highly dangerous for a substance like this.

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#111 experimenting

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 05:49 PM

Seconded. Can’t believe this stuff is legal. It’s powerful.

Took 50mg micronised. Mixed results...

The one thing I appreciated was increased libido and weirdly harder muscles. I assume due to DHT conversion.

But the rest of it wasn’t great. Upregulating NMDA and downregulating GABA produces miserable effects. I noted the same effects as OP, derealization, intense fear, etc. These lasted about 3 days before finally subsiding.

The positive hormonal effects tell me there might be something to this, but I really would drop the dose down to an order of 1-5mg. 50mg seems crazy.
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#112 T1m

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Posted 11 July 2022 - 12:55 AM

Hi, folks. I have not forgotten about this thread at all and remain steadfast in my intention to update my progress here as it happens. There have been no major changes since I last posted. None of the supplements or behaviors I've added into my regimen have had the slightest effect on my symptom profile.

With that said, I will continue to post updates when noticeable changes, whether for better or worse, occur. I do have several upcoming appointments with different doctors who hold MDs while also having undergone extensive training in functional medicine, so am still maintaining the hope that I'll find a medical professional with the ability to treat me effectively. My confidence in that is minimal, but enough to motivate me to continue to try to find one who can.

 

I realise that you'll probably never see this, but I'm wondering how you are doing and, if you have healed, what have you done?

 

I just started taking pregnenolone as a treatment for the nearly identical symptomology you describe. (My symptoms started nearly two years ago, but have gradually become a bit better over time, with great effort and experimentation on my part.) The current working theory is that mine was caused by Lyme disease.

 

I'd love to hear from someone who recovered: especially you. I am a PhD student in mathematical systems/controls engineering and a background in theoretical physics. I have a wife and two kids and I haven't been able to perform academically since this began. (I'm only now starting to get back to light academic work.)

 

Thanks! And my best hopes and wishes are with you.



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#113 Unclesam

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Posted 21 February 2024 - 01:20 AM

If anyone is still active on this thread, or has any idea what happened to this guy that would be wonderful to hear. I have had the same symptoms for a while now and am not sure what to do. 







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