25 replies to this topic

[tfor]

I'm confused. There's a professor who seems to be against fish oil and he sells his own oil formulas.

Now I'm worried. I have been taking fish oil for years daily. Usually 1-2 grams. How can this be bad?

 

http://www.advancedb...EFA-Formula.htm

[timar]

It isn't. That's just another stupid sales pitch to get people to pay $40 for a 87 g bottle of some cheap plant oils.

[D Mason]

It isn't. That's just another stupid sales pitch to get people to pay $40 for a 87 g bottle of some cheap plant oils.

 

Agreed.  A poor attempt.

[Dorian Grey]

Fish oil & even veg-oils get a good thrashing here: http://www.second-op...ml#.VA-i1vldWuk

 

One KNOWN problem with these oils is that they do oxidize and become rancid at the drop of a hat.  This can occur before you consume them or from metabolic processes inside the body.  Vitamin-E is the bodies primary lipid antioxidant and I wouldn't get caught dead taking FO without substantial supplemental E.  

 

Iron and to a lesser extent copper (which accumulate with age) act as a catalyst for lipid peroxidation.  A regular blood donor with naturally low iron levels might get substantial benefit from Fish Oil (provided E is not deficient), but an old gomer who's full of accumulated transition metals might be doing more harm than good by gobbling down FO or PUFA/vegetable oils.  

Edited by synesthesia, 10 September 2014 - 01:20 AM.

[Application]

A good article questioning utility and need for fish oil:

 

 

Review Article

 

Has an aquatic diet been necessary for hominin brain evolution and functional development?

 

John H. Langdon*

Departments of Biology and Anthropology, University of Indianapolis, 1400 East Hanna Avenue, Indianapolis, IN 46227, USA (Received 1 June 2005 – Revised 13 March 2006 – Accepted 13 March 2006)

 

A number of authors have argued that only an aquatic-based diet can provide the necessary quantity of DHA to support the human brain, and that a switch to such a diet early in hominin evolution was critical to human brain evolution. This paper identifies the premises behind this hypothesis and critiques them on the basis of clinical literature. Both tissue levels and certain functions of the developing infant brain are sensitive to extreme variations in the supply of DHA in artificial feeding, and it can be shown that levels in human milk reflect maternal diet. However, both the maternal and infant bodies have mechanisms to store and buffer the supply of DHA, so that functional deficits are generally resolved without compensatory diets. There is no evidence that human diets based on terrestrial food chains with traditional nursing practices fail to provide ade- quate levels of DHA or other n-3 fatty acids. Consequently, the hypothesis that DHA has been a limiting resource in human brain evolution must be considered to be unsupported.....

 

source: http://journals.camb...68140bc4db80943

Edited by Application, 10 September 2014 - 03:39 AM.

[timar]

The OP felt unsettled by some wildly speculative, fearmongering article about fish oil and asked whether the dose he currently takes (1-2 g) could be considered unhealthy. The only valid answer to that question, according to overwhelming evidence from countless ramdomized controlled trials as well as epidemiological studies, is no, it certainly isn't unhealthy but likely to be beneficial. Now you come up with more speculative, fearmongering articles about polyunsaturated oils in general.

 

Yes, there is some evidence that excessive intakes of polyunsaturated fats, particularly refined seed oils with a high omega 6-to-3-ratio are indeed unhealthy. However, that was not what the OP's question was about. synesthesia and Application: please exercise some self-discipline when answering questions of unexperienced new members, trying to give a precise answer based on the best available evidence instead of promoting your speculative pet theories to the effect of scaring instead of helping poeple. Thank you!

 

Anyway, this subject is one of the classic Déjà-vu-experiences in this forum and has been discussed over and over. Read the most recent topic on it and post there if you think you can add to the discussion.

Edited by timar, 10 September 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[lockthedoor]

I don't feel like fish oil can cause you to look older, age faster, or trigger other health problems. This guys is just trying to sell his own product!!!

[Application]

The OP felt unsettled by some wildly speculative, fearmongering article about fish oil and asked whether the dose he currently takes (1-2 g) could be considered unhealthy. The only valid answer to that question, according to overwhelming evidence from countless ramdomized controlled trials as well as epidemiological studies, is no, it certainly isn't unhealthy but likely to be beneficial. Now you come up with more speculative, fearmongering articles about polyunsaturated oils in general.

 

Yes, there is some evidence that excessive intakes of polyunsaturated fats, particularly refined seed oils with a high omega 6-to-3-ratio are indeed unhealthy. However, that was not what the OP's question was about. synesthesia and Application: please exercise some self-discipline when answering questions of unexperienced new members, trying to give a precise answer based on the best available evidence instead of promoting your speculative pet theories to the effect of scaring instead of helping poeple. Thank you!

 

Anyway, this subject is one of the classic Déjà-vu-experiences in this forum and has been discussed over and over. Read the most recent topic on it and post there if you think you can add to the discussion.

Timar, did you even look at the linked paper? If you did please let me know where the scaremongering and pet cause speculative parts are.

Far as I can tell its a paper discussing the underlying premises behind supplementing with fish oil.

[Dorian Grey]

OK timar, I'll plead guilty to my (perhaps) over-zealous thumbs down to the fish oil question raised by the thread title "Is fish oil actually unhealthy?"  

 

I stand by the rationales I've given though...  Fish oil processed using heat in the presence of oxygen very well may be largely rancid in the bottle when you buy it.  Eating fresh, wild caught oily fish is likely a much safer option than consuming processed oils.  

 

Nature had tailored fish oil to cold blooded low iron organisms who live in frigid waters (which inhibits oxidation), and when these oils are incorporated into tissues of warm blooded high iron organisms, problems with oxidation can and do occur.  

 

Vitamin-E is the human's primary lipid antioxidant and the only hope of controlling oxidation of susceptible lipids as these are processed through metabolic pathways.  E is also the most common vitamin deficiency in humans.  

 

I truly don't know if taking pure unoxidized fish oil in moderate doses might provide a net beneficial effect in humans not predisposed to oxidation problems due to age related accumulation of transition metals, but the theory of the dangers involved appear to me to be sound.  

 

More here: http://raypeat.com/a...s/fishoil.shtml

 

Apologies if my input is unsound.  I am but a human and prone to error, though my intentions are good.  

 

Edited by synesthesia, 11 September 2014 - 04:37 AM.

[Application]

I mistakenly hit dislike on synethesia's post. Please someone upvote the above post to re-neutralize it. Thanks

[tfor]

Hi,

but the fish oil which I buy is being tested for oxidization, at least they provide lab tests.

Does this mean that it's all good? I also keep my fishoil in the fridge.

 

I really wonder what kind of oils are we even allowed to consume?

If polyunsaturated fats are bad like some say then what shall we eat? Butter,meat and coconut oil?

I don't really use a lot of oils. I use sunflower oil to cook and other than that I take small amounts of fish oil, coconut oil (rarely), evening primrose oil, blackseed oil.

I don't see how adding some of these fats can be bad when most of the fats which we get through prepared foods are most likely unhealthy fats.

 

 

[Dolph]

Even if it was oxidized despite what some cranks claim this wouldn't be a problem anyways.
http://journals.camb...007114511005484

[blood]

Even if it was oxidized despite what some cranks claim this wouldn't be a problem anyways.
http://journals.camb...007114511005484

A very interesting result.

But then, what about results such as these:
 

J Nutr. 1991 Apr;121(4):484-91.

Effect of long-term fish oil supplementation on vitamin E status and lipid peroxidation in women.

Meydani M1, Natiello F, Goldin B, Free N, Woods M, Schaefer E, Blumberg JB, Gorbach SL.

Abstract

Fifteen young (22-35 y) and 10 older (51-71 y) women received six capsules of fish oil (Pro-Mega)/d, providing a total of 1,680 mg eicosapentaenoic (EPA), 720 mg docosahexaenoic (DHA), 600 mg other fatty acids, and 6 IU vitamin E. Blood was collected before and after 1, 2 and 3 mo of supplementation. Compliance was confirmed by the significant increase in plasma EPA and DHA in all women. Older women had a significantly higher increase in EPA and DHA than did young women (10-fold increases in EPA and 2.5-fold increases in DHA vs. 8-fold in EPA and 2-fold in DHA for older and young women, respectively). The decrease in the arachidonic acid:EPA ratio was more dramatic in the older women. Plasma total triglycerides (TG) decreased significantly, and the ratio of polyunsaturated fatty acids to saturated fatty acids was significantly (P less than 0.01) increased. Plasma vitamin E levels did not change significantly after supplementation; however, after 3 mo of supplementation by young women, plasma vitamin E was significantly lower than after 1 mo. The vitamin E: TG ratio was significantly increased and vitamin E:(EPA + DHA) significantly decreased. All women showed a significant increase in plasma lipid peroxide through mo 2 of supplementation. After 2 mo, older women had significantly higher lipid peroxide levels than young women. The lipid peroxide:TG ratio, which declined by mo 3, was still significantly higher than baseline. These data indicate that although long-term fish oil supplementation may be beneficial in reducing plasma total TG, susceptibility of plasma lipids to free radical attack is potentiated.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Lipids. 1997 May;32(5):535-41.

Lipid peroxidation during n-3 fatty acid and vitamin E supplementation in humans.

Allard JP1, Kurian R, Aghdassi E, Muggli R, Royall D.

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to investigate in healthy humans the effect of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) intake, alone or in combination with dL-alpha-tocopherol acetate (vitamin E) supplements on lipid peroxidation. Eighty men were randomly assigned in a double-blind fashion to take daily for 6 wk either menhaden oil (6.26 g, n-3 fatty acids) or olive oil supplements with either vitamin E (900 IU) or its placebo. Antioxidant vitamins, phospholipid composition, malondialdehyde (MDA), and lipid peroxides were measured in the plasma at baseline and week 6. At the same time, breath alkane output was measured. Plasma alpha-tocopherol concentration increased in those receiving vitamin E (P < 0.0001). In those supplemented with n-3 fatty acids, EPA and DHA increased in plasma phospholipids (P < 0.0001) and plasma MDA and lipid peroxides increased (P < 0.001 and P < 0.05, respectively). Breath alkane output did not change significantly and vitamin E intake did not prevent the increase in lipid peroxidation during menhaden oil supplementation. The results demonstrate that supplementing the diet with n-3 fatty acids resulted in an increase in lipid peroxidation, as measured by plasma MDA release and lipid peroxide products, which was not suppressed by vitamin E supplementation.

Perhaps Timar will come along, and direct us to a nice, recent review that addresses concerns of increased lipid peroxidation with fish oil supplementation.

(If mortality - or whatever - is reduced by fish oil supplementation, is increased lipid peroxidation even something worth worrying about?)

[Dorian Grey]

"is increased lipid peroxidation even something worth worrying about?"

 

We might wish to consider in this part of the equation the fact that oxidized lipids tend to cause a bit of a STINK!  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2865286/

 

Lipid Peroxidation Generates Body Odor

 

Interesting in blood's study above: "older women had significantly higher lipid peroxide levels than young women"

Yes, post menopausal women start accumulating excess iron resulting in more lipid peroxidation issues!  In the younger women it appears Vitamin-E was depleted: "after 3 mo of supplementation by young women, plasma vitamin E was significantly lower than after 1 mo".  

 

When iron is at all elevated (adult males and post menopausal females), lipids prone to oxidation will get oxidized!  Fish Oil...  Good for little fishies.  Perhaps not so good for humans?

Edited by synesthesia, 14 September 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[timar]

Far as I can tell its a paper discussing the underlying premises behind supplementing with fish oil.

 

Yes, but in a pretty biased and speculative manner and by doing so expressing a clear minority view on the subject within the scientific literature. There's nothing wrong about such hypothetical papers, they often provide thought-provoking new hypothesis which can than be tested - but they are certainly not what to direct someone to who is seeking basic, unbiased and authoritative information on a subject.

 

I stand by the rationales I've given though...  Fish oil processed using heat in the presence of oxygen very well may be largely rancid in the bottle when you buy it.  Eating fresh, wild caught oily fish is likely a much safer option than consuming processed oils.  
 

 

No, it may not be "very rancid" as we have actually evolved an extremely sensitive olfactory sense in order to detect a degree of rancidity that would be potentially harmful. You can trust your sense of smell when it comes to rancidity. This is why I have disadvised to use lemon-flavoured bottled fish oil, as the strong lemon scent may mask the rancidity. Anyway, a GMP certified manufacturer is obliged make to properly handle the fish oil and process it in a low-oxygen environment. Most of them provide analysis certificates upon request and in case you don't trust the certificate you can still trust your sense of smell and open a capsule. This is really a non-issue IMO.

 

I really wonder what kind of oils are we even allowed to consume?

If polyunsaturated fats are bad like some say then what shall we eat? Butter,meat and coconut oil?

 

Indeed this is what many poeple sweepingly demonizing polyunsaturated fats would suggest. Many of them are strongly biased Paleo/low-carb advocates who simply ignore the large body of scientific evidence for the harmful effects of saturated fats. One should be wary of their advice!

 

I don't really use a lot of oils. I use sunflower oil to cook and other than that I take small amounts of fish oil, coconut oil (rarely), evening primrose oil, blackseed oil.

I don't see how adding some of these fats can be bad when most of the fats which we get through prepared foods are most likely unhealthy fats.

 

Nothing wrong about the other oils in moderation but if you want to do yourself a favor, ditch the sunflower oil and use olive and/or canola oil instead. While it is safe or even beneficial to consume moderate amouns of polyunsaturated oils with cold dishes, cooking oils should be largely monounsaturated because of the greater heat stability. Moreover, one should avoid an exessive intake of omega-6 linoleic acid, as a disbalance of omega-6 and omega-3 (too much omega-6, too little omega-3) promotes inflammation. Sunflower oil contains up to 70% omega-6 and next to no omega-3, which makes it strongly proinflammatory. Canola oil, for comparison, contains 20% omega-6 and 10% omega-3, which is great ratio. Olive oil contains little polyunsaturated fatty acids (10% omega-6, 1% omega-3) , so it won't throw off that balance nearly as much as sunflower oil.

 

You see, the question is considerably too complex for any simple answer lumping together all polyunsaturated fats as good or bad per se.

 

I have recently given more in-depth practical advice about dietary fats and fish oil in this post. Stick to it and you should be fine

 

Perhaps Timar will come along, and direct us to a nice, recent review that addresses concerns of increased lipid peroxidation with fish oil supplementation.

(If mortality - or whatever - is reduced by fish oil supplementation, is increased lipid peroxidation even something worth worrying about?)

 

I don't think that there is such a review. I think it is a non-issue compared to the hard endpoints we have plenty of. However, to have some peace of mind about it, get a high quality fish oil, stick to reasonable doses (e.g. not more than 1-2 g of EPA and DHA), keep it in the fridge, do the smell test with every bottle, and make sure you get plenty of vitamin E and other antioxidants from the diet (and optionally low-dose supplements).

Edited by timar, 15 September 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Dolph]

I don't really use a lot of oils. I use sunflower oil to cook and other than that I take small amounts of fish oil, coconut oil (rarely), evening primrose oil, blackseed oil.
I don't see how adding some of these fats can be bad when most of the fats which we get through prepared foods are most likely unhealthy fats.

 
Nothing wrong about the other oils in moderation but if you want to do yourself a favor, ditch the sunflower oil and use olive and/or canola oil instead. While it is safe or even beneficial to consume moderate amouns of polyunsaturated oils with cold dishes, cooking oils should be largely monounsaturated because of the greater heat stability. Moreover, one should avoid an exessive intake of omega-6 linoleic acid, as a disbalance of omega-6 and omega-3 (too much omega-6, too little omega-3) promotes inflammation. Sunflower oil contains up to 70% omega-6 and next to no omega-3, which makes it strongly proinflammatory. Canola oil, for comparison, contains 20% omega-6 and 10% omega-3, which is great ratio. Olive oil contains little polyunsaturated fatty acids (10% omega-6, 1% omega-3) , so it won't throw off that balance nearly as much as sunflower oil.

Timar, I'm really surprised you are pushing this. I know the myth of "proinflammatory" Omega 6 is virulent over here. But YOU???

I aim for at least 6-8% of my daily calories to be Omega6, slightly more than SFAs. And based on what I eat I wouldn't reach this threshold level (effectively countering the effects of SFAs) without some sunflower oil in spreads and salads.

Omega 6 fatty acids actually have, beside some indeed proinflammatory actions, some potent ANTI-inflammatory qualities, for example on vessel walls.
http://circ.ahajourn.../6/902.full.pdf

This whole Omega 6/inflammation woo has actually much of the same sources as the "SFAs are healthy."-dogma BS.

Edited by Dolph, 15 September 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[timar]

Timar, I'm really surprised you are pushing this. I know the myth of "proinflammatory" Omega 6 is virulent over here. But YOU???

I aim for at least 6-8% of my daily calories to be Omega6, slightly more than SFAs. And based on what I eat I wouldn't reach this threshold level (effectively countering the effects of SFAs) without some sunflower oil in spreads and salads.

Omega 6 fatty acids actually have, beside some indeed proinflammatory actions, some potent ANTI-inflammatory qualities, for example on vessel walls.
http://circ.ahajourn.../6/902.full.pdf

This whole Omega 6/inflammation woo has actually much of the same sources as the "SFAs are healthy."-dogma BS.

 

 

Well, I always welcome questioning popular internet "wisdom" but in the case of omega 6/3, although certainly overstated in some circles, there is quite some evidence not only from numerous animal studies but also epidemiolgical studies, some randomized controlled trials and particularly from the recent meta-analysis by Ramsden et al. that an excess of omega-6 is indeed bad for you (btw. I never said that omega 6 per se is proinflammatory, I said that "a disbalance of omega-6 and omega-3 [...] promotes inflammation". Please be more careful with your interpretation ). Moreover, I don't think the DGE (German Nutrition Society) based its recommendation for an omega-6/3-ratio intake of 5:1 or less on hearsay or mere speculation. But as I wrote before: even if the evidence is somewhat inconclusive - it is so easy to get that ratio right (e.g. by using canola instead of sunflower oil) that it would simply be foolish not to take care of it.

Edited by timar, 15 September 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[Dolph]

The ratio of omega 6 and omega 3 is probably not important PER SE but results directly from the need for absolute amounts of O6 and O3 as such. (By the way I'm sure you know the criticism of the Ramsden "work". He clearly is not a neutral source to call it politely. I'm somewhat surprised you cite THAT as prove for your point.)

So I have of course no problem with the recommendations of the DGE as they clearly recommend 10% of total daily calories to be from O6 and a 1:1 ratio with saturated FAs. (At least the last time I checked it was that way... I think they now stuff all PUFA together and I don't know if that makes anything easier. Still, 10% PUFAs and a 5:1 O6/O3 ratio result in ~8% O6.)
So this can't be "excess" cause they wouldn't recommend that, right? I don't think anyone following a halfway decent diet will get beyond these 10% PUFA easily, so I don't see cause for concern, especially not in our circles. Our intake of O3 easily should be enough to achieve a decent O3/O6 ratio. That's a thread about FISH OIL, right???)
But it's on the other hand pretty easy to achieve an Omega6 intake so pathologically low to multiply the detremental effects of SFAs on blood lipids.

Edited by Dolph, 15 September 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[timar]

The ratio of omega 6 and omega 3 is probably not important PER SE but results directly from the need for absolute amounts of O6 and O3 as such. (By the way I'm sure you know the criticism of the Ramsden "work". He clearly is not a neutral source to call it politely. I'm somewhat surprised you cite THAT as prove for your point.)

 

I'm not interested in Ramsden's reputation as being in the "anti omega-6" camp. I'm only interested in the quality of his publications. I think his dissection of the Sidney Diet Heart Trial was brilliant and his meta-analysis provides strong evidence for the importance of the omega 6/3 ratio. I don't think that the results can be explained by a deficiency of omega-3 (long chain or not) in the omega-6 trials alone, as you seem to imply. At least I see no evidence for such an interpretation. If you do, please explain (instead of simply downvoting my post without further explanation).
 

So I have of course no problem with the recommendations of the DGE as they clearly recommend 10% of total daily calories to be from O6 and a 1:1 ratio with saturated FAs. (At least the last time I checked it was that way... I think they now stuff all PUFA together and I don't know if that makes anything easier. Still, 10% PUFAs and a 5:1 O6/O3 ratio result in ~8% O6.)
So this can't be "excess" cause they wouldn't recommend that, right? I don't think anyone following a halfway decent diet will get beyond these 10% PUFA easily, so I don't see cause for concern, especially not in our circles. Our intake of O3 easily should be enough to achieve a decent O3/O6 ratio. That's a thread about FISH OIL, right???)
But it's on the other hand pretty easy to achieve an Omega6 intake so pathologically low to multiply the detremental effects of SFAs on blood lipids.

 

I haven't said that 10% is an excess. It would be an excess if alpha-linolenic acid was below 2%. I don't think, however, that the recommendation for 10% is based on solid evidence regarding absolute intakes. It is more of a pragmatic recommendation to offset the intake of saturated fat in a typical Western diet relatively rich in animal products. The actual requirement for linoleic acid as an essential fatty acid is probably around 1%, and the AI set by the EFSA is 4%, which is about 10 g. This would be more than sufficient if the intake of saturated fat is low, such as in low-fat plant-based diets. Personally I shoot for a ratio of 2:4:2:1 (saturated to omega-9 to omega-6 to omega-3), as this ratio most closely resembles a Mediterranean dietary pattern (and suits my tastes and biases ).

Edited by timar, 15 September 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[Rocket]

Fish oil contains PUFA, which should be avoided. If you want healthy fat then stick to nuts.

[tfor]

I wonder do we know wether fish oil is good or bad for smokers and people who probably have a high oxidative stress?

What happens if a smoker for example only takes 2 grams fish oil daily and no additional antioxidants would the fish oil then oxidize in the body

and cause damage?

This worries me a bit cause for many years I ate pretty poor and didn't take any supplements except fish oil and whey protein and during this time

I excessively trained in the gym 3 times a week for 90 minutes straight. This was probably very unhealthy for the body but back then I didn't know it any

better.

[timar]

Fish oil contains PUFA, which should be avoided. If you want healthy fat then stick to nuts.

 

 

[tfor]

How do I know which nuts are healthy to be eaten daily on a long term?

My intern once told me that he knew someone who got liver cancer and he blamed nuts for it which contained toxins from mold.

I read that you cannot see the mold. This would mean that you cannot know if a nut is safe or not.

[krillin]

Peanuts are the ones that get contaminated by aflatoxin, which is the liver cancer toxin. Walnuts can go rancid due to the large PUFA content. Most of the other popular ones are high in MUFA so they are good choices. I eat almonds and macadamias.

[tfor]

This is not good. I have been eating peanuts a lot over the last year or so.

Usually when I watch TV I can easily eat 100 grams of more.

What if they were contaminated?

[blood]

There was a previous, quite thorough Longecity forum discussion on the risks & benefits of eating nuts, here.