24 replies to this topic

[NeuroGeneration]

I had a blood hormone panel done, and I'm slightly concerned about relatively low Testosterone, Free T, & zinc levels. They aren't "out of range" for my age group (30 year old male), but considering that I eat a strict paleo diet, lift heavy weights, do HIIT, am not overweight, etc., I'd expect (and want) my levels to be closer to the mean or median for my age (over 600), or at least in the 500s! I know that I'm not in danger, but in wanting to maximize the quality of my life, I feel like higher levels may help to remedy minor issues I have with mood, libido, memory & fatigue.

 

Here are my numbers:

 

Total Testosterone: 475 (mean for 30-34 year olds is 621. I feel like I should be in 500 or 600's, and have heard that levels in the 400's can have an impact on your quality of life)

 

Free Testosterone: 65.8 ("low risk" range is 46 - 224. I'd like to be closer to 100+, no?)

 

Estradiol: 21 (I'm comfortable with this)

 

Prolactin 7 (I'm also comfortable with this)

 

Alkaline Phosphatase (ALP – zinc levels): 41 (below 40 is considered to be of moderate concern. Ideal is 40 - 129; I'm on the fringe)

 

My theory is that I have a large amount of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) attached to my T, as a result of inadequate zinc, which leads to lower free T. Beyond that, I'd still like to raise my total T, alongside the free T.

 

A few questions:

 

1. What are your thoughts on my levels?

2. Do you think that inadequate zinc could be the culprit?

3. Any suggestions on how to naturally raise the total and free T levels, without down regulating T receptors?

 

Thanks a ton!

Edited by NeuroGeneration, 26 September 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[Hebbeh]

Sounds like over-training syndrome.  That volume of training while maintaining a lean physique will commonly result in depressed T at that age...you're not 18 anymore but training like you are and more than likely not eating enough carbs nor recovery time to support that volume of training.  Maintaining a lean physique, while looking good, isn't conducive to high T.  All things are a trade off.  Take a month off and eat some carbs....I guarantee your T will skyrocket.  Less is often more...especially if not chemically enhanced.

[mustardseed41]

Sounds like over-training syndrome.  That volume of training while maintaining a lean physique will commonly result in depressed T at that age...you're not 18 anymore but training like you are and more than likely not eating enough carbs nor recovery time to support that volume of training.  Maintaining a lean physique, while looking good, isn't conducive to high T.  All things are a trade off.  Take a month off and eat some carbs....I guarantee your T will skyrocket.  Less is often more...especially if not chemically enhanced.

 

I missed the part where he said what kind of volume he was doing? You psychic?

[Hebbeh]

 

Sounds like over-training syndrome.  That volume of training while maintaining a lean physique will commonly result in depressed T at that age...you're not 18 anymore but training like you are and more than likely not eating enough carbs nor recovery time to support that volume of training.  Maintaining a lean physique, while looking good, isn't conducive to high T.  All things are a trade off.  Take a month off and eat some carbs....I guarantee your T will skyrocket.  Less is often more...especially if not chemically enhanced.

 

I missed the part where he said what kind of volume he was doing? You psychic?

 

 

Perhaps you just need to work on reading comprehension....but what is your point?  Anything worthwhile to add mustardseed?

 

 

I eat a strict paleo diet, lift heavy weights, do HIIT

 

 

Would indicate not enough carbs to support a regimen of heavy lifting and HIIT.  I've seen it before.  How about your experiences mustardseed?

 

The following quote is also a clue and classic symptoms of over-training (probably compounded with lack of carbs for recovery) when put into context of the previous statements as quoted above.

 

issues I have with mood, libido, memory & fatigue.

 

 

Edited by Hebbeh, 26 September 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[NeuroGeneration]

Fair points. I experimented with ketosis for a few months, and I fell into depression, couldn't sleep, etc. I've been back to carbs for the last 8 weeks, and the test was taken 2 weeks ago. Perhaps the levels will continue to climb.

 

I'll take it a little more easy on myself in the gym, and be sure to rest more. I'll get back to HRV training.

 

With that said, do you think I should increase my zinc intake? Any other suggestions to maximize my odds of optimal levels, without going overboard?

[Hebbeh]

How much red meat are you eating on your Paleo diet?  Red meat is fairly high in zinc.  If you decide to experiment with zinc, I wouldn't supplement more than 25mg/day.  Too much zinc can suppress E and too low E can compound some of your issues.

[Dorian Grey]

I started taking Vitamin-D for health and wound up with an interesting side effect...  A noticeable bump in libido!  

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21154195

 

Effect of vitamin D supplementation on testosterone levels in men

 

"Compared to baseline values, a significant increase in total testosterone levels (from 10.7 ± 3.9 nmol/l to 13.4 ± 4.7 nmol/l; p < 0.001), bioactive testosterone (from 5.21 ± 1.87 nmol/l to 6.25 ± 2.01 nmol/l; p = 0.001), and free testosterone levels (from 0.222 ± 0.080 nmol/l to 0.267 ± 0.087 nmol/l; p = 0.001) were observed in the vitamin D supplemented group."

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

How much red meat are you eating on your Paleo diet?  Red meat is fairly high in zinc.  If you decide to experiment with zinc, I wouldn't supplement more than 25mg/day.  Too much zinc can suppress E and too low E can compound some of your issues.

 

Speaking if E...  I've also noticed Vitamin-E substantially increases my semen volume.  This too seems to affect my libido, but mostly in the ability to have sex more often rather than the testosterone fueled drive to mate I got from D.  When I'm on vacation with my sweetheart I take extra E and the sex is an every day thing.  

[NeuroGeneration]

I'm not eating nearly as much meat as I used to. I've subbed a lot of it out for fish (sadines, tuna, wild salmon), and added raw milk yogurts (not paleo, but it agrees with me).

 

I'm asking about the zinc mainly because of my ALP levels. Wouldn't 41 indicate that I could use some more? Also, I supplement with 500mg of magnesium daily. Shouldn't I balance the equation with a 25mg zinc pill?

[Hebbeh]

It wouldn't hurt to experiment with 25 mg zinc for a few weeks and see how you respond.  I would suggest 15-25 mg per day for a month and see if that improves your feeling of well being and retest if possible.  I still believe your original symptoms are due to pushing yourself too hard in the gym on too few carbs.  Both over-training and too few carbs will negatively impact hormones and contribute to the symptoms you mentioned.  And it can take quit awhile to recover from the state of overtraining....and why even pro and world class athletes have an off season.....to recover...and unlike most of us, they are blessed with exceptional genetics and exceptional support system to begin with but they still need to be careful not to fall into that trap.

[NeuroGeneration]

Yes, I definitely agree re: low carb. Don't tell a keto dieter that, though – I tried on Reddit (with blood tests to substantiate it), and they all claimed I was "doing something wrong", despite having done everything that they pointed out and have blood ketones above 2.0. Dogmatism. Ugh...

 

I'll give the zinc a try, and cool it a bit at the gym.

[Hebbeh]

Yeah, I've done keto back in the day when I was younger and wished to get shredded.....and it works extremely well to accomplish the lean and mean goal...and know more about it than I care to admit...but it's not sustainable and compatible with either an enjoyable lifestyle or long term goals.  I always viewed it as a hard core means to an end in achieving insane low bodyfat for the shredded appearance...but I always felt better and performed better on moderate carbs.  My old age wisdom has brought me full circle to believe all things in moderation and proper balance...the way nature intended.

[Stephen12]

Your problem is quite complicated, and honestly requires a bit more knowledge than we actually have.

 

That said, my answer on zinc is if you're deficient, yes, absolutely.  There was a study that said if someone got 1/3rd of what they should be getting in zinc, their test dropped to a 1/3rd of what it should be as well.

 

But, I think, an under-appreciated supplement for boosting test is d-aspartic acid.  3 weeks on, 1 week off with 1g a day should work wonders.  Also, fats are good, and if you're avoiding carbs too much on paleo, such as sweet potatoes, etc., it could be affecting your thyroid and your test.

 

Good luck!

[malden]

At what time of day you have drawned blood, Thats the quetstion.=?

alsow posted refenrence ranges on pro trt sited are not always a golden standart.

 

trying zinc is always good

 

 

[NeuroGeneration]

I made sure to do it in the morning: 10am.

 

I'll look into d-aspartic acid.

 

How fast does test. respond to intervention? In other words, if we simplify things and say that inadequate zinc is 100% the cause, after supplementation, would I see my test raise almost immediately? After a week, month, months...?

[Area-1255]

How much red meat are you eating on your Paleo diet?  Red meat is fairly high in zinc.  If you decide to experiment with zinc, I wouldn't supplement more than 25mg/day.  Too much zinc can suppress E and too low E can compound some of your issues.

Actually the bigger concern would be DHT over inhibition and too much NMDA blockade by Zinc.

[BobDole]

Any opinions on taking Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) to increase testosterone? Would there be any dangers? From what iv'e  read it sounds pretty safe.

[Stephen12]

I know that anastrozole is good.  When I was researching it for some reason I preferred anastrozole to clomid, but I think they're pretty similar to each other.

 

Too much, however, will reduce your estrogen levels to an unacceptable range.  Believe it or not, it's even need for sexual function in men.

[GoingPrimal]

Why not look into a few herbs/supplements to boost T, lower SHBG and a weak aromatase inhibitor as well?

 

A good stinging nettle extract to lower SHBG

Boron raises T levels

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor

 

Don't expect crazy results but if you're looking along the lines of zinc these would be nice additions.

 

Like Hebbeh is saying, it may just be a case of overtraining. Make sure you're getting plenty of sleep, eating enough fats and a bit more carbs if you spent time in ketosis, try to eliminate xenoestrogens from your diet (for example, the hops in beer are very estrogenic, a sad, sad truth  ) and look into natural AI's, T boosters and SHBG lowering supplements/herbs.

[NeuroGeneration]

Great ideas, GoingPrimal.

 

I actually have Grape Seed Extract, but have hesitated taking it. The reason being, I am very active in the gym, and there have been studies that find certain antioxidants to reduce muscle growth (for example, vitamin C, NAC...). The thought is that the free radicals are actually signaling molecules, which then induce hormesis.

 

Certain antioxidants wouldn't cause this effect. For example, I don't see why glutathione would. Do you think grape seed extract would counteract some of the benefits of exercise? I came across this abstract, which states, "In conclusion, GSE supplementation prevents exercise-induced oxidative stress by preventing lipid peroxidation and increasing antioxidant enzyme activities."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22011589

[Area-1255]

Any opinions on taking Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) to increase testosterone? Would there be any dangers? From what iv'e  read it sounds pretty safe.

Possible estrogen dominance or estrogen elevation in a normal individual, I don't recommend clomid use for enhancing test levels, at least not without an AI.

[GoingPrimal]

Great ideas, GoingPrimal.

 

I actually have Grape Seed Extract, but have hesitated taking it. The reason being, I am very active in the gym, and there have been studies that find certain antioxidants to reduce muscle growth (for example, vitamin C, NAC...). The thought is that the free radicals are actually signaling molecules, which then induce hormesis.

 

Certain antioxidants wouldn't cause this effect. For example, I don't see why glutathione would. Do you think grape seed extract would counteract some of the benefits of exercise? I came across this abstract, which states, "In conclusion, GSE supplementation prevents exercise-induced oxidative stress by preventing lipid peroxidation and increasing antioxidant enzyme activities."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22011589

 

 

Yeah I've recently stopped ingesting antioxidants pre- and post-workout because of this very find. If you're "pampering" your muscles and not allowing them to break down and grow back stronger it kinda defeats the purpose.

 

That said GSE is just one aromatase inhibitor out of many. I think if you dosed far enough away from your workouts it shouldn't be a problem but there are other AIs out there - apigenin from chamomile is one, resveratrol another though that again is an antioxidant. 

[Young Paul]

Possible estrogen dominance or estrogen elevation in a normal individual, I don't recommend clomid use for enhancing test levels, at least not without an AI.

 

correct. clomid and HCG are ugly drugs. They bypass the message from the pituitary gland to the gonads, but after withdrawl you can suffer. Always gave me blurred vision, and a foggy brain.

Edited by Young Paul, 16 July 2023 - 10:00 AM.

[Young Paul]

Any opinions on taking Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) to increase testosterone? Would there be any dangers? From what iv'e  read it sounds pretty safe.

 

its not safe, it's really bad. Memory loss, blurred vision. Ive used it a lot. clomid will give you bad eyesight. Try forskelin, zinc, magnesium, watermelon, citrulline, lycopene, argenine, ornithine, Ashwagandha, vitamin D, Indole-3-carbinol (anti-estrogen from brussel sprouts) try broad beans (fava) they contain massive amounts of L-dopa to boost HGH and testosterone. Avoid beer and soya. Just my opinion, but I've read on many studies about increasing testo naturally. Steroids will mess you up forever.

[Gal220]

Why not look into a few herbs/supplements to boost T, lower SHBG and a weak aromatase inhibitor as well?

 

A good stinging nettle extract to lower SHBG

Boron raises T levels

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor

 

Don't expect crazy results but if you're looking along the lines of zinc these would be nice additions.

 

Like Hebbeh is saying, it may just be a case of overtraining. Make sure you're getting plenty of sleep, eating enough fats and a bit more carbs if you spent time in ketosis, try to eliminate xenoestrogens from your diet (for example, the hops in beer are very estrogenic, a sad, sad truth  ) and look into natural AI's, T boosters and SHBG lowering supplements/herbs.

 

Pine pollen is probably the best supplement for testosterone

pine pollen tincture testosterone at DuckDuckGo

 

Lost Empire sells a tincture and nettle as a combo buy

 

 

Also avoid sugar, aluminum deodorant

What I Learned From Taking Testosterone For A Decade (daveasprey.com)

 

"Eliminating sugar is probably the single most powerful way to increase your performance, in part because sugar absolutely devastates your testosterone levels "