Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:29 PM
P.S. The head is being preserved with blood washout with carrier solution; 10% and 30% Ethylene Glycol and the CI−VM−1 (CI Vitrification Mixture one) formula of the Cryonics Institute. The rest of the body - with glycerol. My question is if you know averagely how much of the above goes for a killogram?
Posted 29 October 2014 - 11:31 PM
I went lost in calculations. I receive either unrealistically low, either unrealistically high costs. Do you know the average cost of the cryoprotectant, needed for vitrification of a person per kilogram?
You would want to contact Alcor or CI for that directly. Perhaps getting it through a co-op arrangement would be best.
Posted 30 October 2014 - 12:20 AM
Yea 
The Cryonics Institute seems to be very simmilar to my type of thinking.
"offering the public cryogenic suspensions of the highest quality at the lowest reasonable cost. This has been our mission since 1976"
It seems, that they had the idea of making it low cost, and they have nearly 40 years of experience doing this.
Posted 30 October 2014 - 02:06 AM
Unfortunately, they could make it lower cost and higher quality by simply offering neuro options, but haven't done that yet and there are fewer than 2000 cryonicists (dead and alive between both companies) in their 35+year history. Cryonics is badly in need of a revolution.
Posted 30 October 2014 - 10:26 AM
Unfortunately, they could make it lower cost and higher quality by simply offering neuro options, but haven't done that yet and there are fewer than 2000 cryonicists (dead and alive between both companies) in their 35+year history. Cryonics is badly in need of a revolution.
They are located in an expensive country, where everything is expensive. There are some things, that remained to calculate - the costs of the cryoprotectand and the dewars - for the dewars, I think, that will have to be custom made - noone is offering such a big dewars. They will rise the cost. The initial investment also will be big - the equipment and a building. In Bulgaria, there are regions with a ridiculosly cheap land and building costs. Equipment can be cheaper if bought from the manyfactorer and shipped. So I am now in a point of calculating, where I don't know from where to start.
Seivtcho, do you know the legal status of cryonics in Bulgaria? I think that is the first issue you have to solve. There's no point in calculating costs if you can't legally provide the service.
To be honest, in Bulgaria, there is absolutely no law, that to say something about the cryonics at all. Legalising will be difficult. Maybe the easiest way will be to legalise it as a funereal company, offering another option rather than burying and cremation (even though, that what the company will be offering is closer more to the medicine, than to the funereal). But even so, the legalisation will be difficult, and lawers don't have an experience in that.
Posted 30 October 2014 - 11:49 AM
To be honest, in Bulgaria, there is absolutely no law, that to say something about the cryonics at all. Legalising will be difficult. Maybe the easiest way will be to legalise it as a funereal company, offering another option rather than burying and cremation (even though, that what the company will be offering is closer more to the medicine, than to the funereal). But even so, the legalisation will be difficult, and lawers don't have an experience in that.
Sad to hear that.
As for the prices for dewars and LN2, surely there are Bulgarian providers for IVF clinics and biotech labs (for example this lab). Since they freeze eggs and tissues, there must be some providers in the country or near it. Maybe you can see their prices in their web pages.
Edited by Antonio2014, 30 October 2014 - 12:00 PM.
Posted 30 October 2014 - 05:05 PM
To be honest, in Bulgaria, there is absolutely no law, that to say something about the cryonics at all. Legalising will be difficult. Maybe the easiest way will be to legalise it as a funereal company, offering another option rather than burying and cremation (even though, that what the company will be offering is closer more to the medicine, than to the funereal). But even so, the legalisation will be difficult, and lawers don't have an experience in that.
Sad to hear that.
As for the prices for dewars and LN2, surely there are Bulgarian providers for IVF clinics and biotech labs (for example this lab). Since they freeze eggs and tissues, there must be some providers in the country or near it. Maybe you can see their prices in their web pages.
You'll want to get it from the source, it's much cheaper as an industrial byproduct in steel manufacturing where they produce liquid oxygen and solid carbon dioxide (dry ice).
Posted 06 November 2014 - 03:45 PM
Alright, people. I almost finished my calculations. Several things remained to be cleared out. I hope to give you more precise answer soon. If made in Bulgaria 15 000 to 18 000 USD for the full body cryopreservation procedure seems cmpletely possible. For cryopreservation of the head only, because of the small size (one eight of the length of the human body), plus because of the smaller amounth of cryoprotectant needed, and the cheaper cryoprotectant(s) used for the head (the carrier solution, that also can be done from more basic ingredients, 10% Ethylene Glycol, 30% Ethylene Glycol and 70% CI−VM−1 in comparison with the glycerol costs used for the remaininng parts of the body, as described in the cryonics institute web site), literary several thousand dollars should be enough for freezing a "neuro".
I haven't included transport of the patirnt's body (the corpse) to the facility. So, this will be an aditional cost.
Another aditional cost will be for the storage of the patient's body. For that purpose money have to be given each month, or each year (for liquid nitrogen and maintainance).
There are also some compromises, that you will need to go through.
In order the investment to be small, and the money to be possible to be recouped, the building in which the procedure is done will be small - literary one small pre-operation theater, not big operation room, very small and old - fashionaly furnished office for signing the contracts. The entire building, where the cryoprocedure will be done, will not be more than 100m2
The initial investment is quite high, and is supposed to be risky, because, you will need at arround 100 full body patients in order to recoupe your money.
I need some law consultation in order how (and more precisely IF ) such a business can be started legaly here. So, if there are some law experts in bulgarian or european laws, please post in the topic or send me a personal message.
By the way, if this are the costs in Bulgaria, I wonder what they will be in China, for example...
Posted 07 November 2014 - 12:58 AM
We could do a fundraiser/grant for the legal expenses so you can talk to a lawyer and maybe get a business set up. On the other hand, you'll need to get more people involved. Have you thought about starting a local chapter in Bulgaria? Have you filled out the questionnaire (mouse over it for links)?
Posted 10 November 2014 - 11:21 PM
The most important thing is to freeze more people. It would be far better to mass market low cost cryonics than it would to save a few thousand dollars on the procedure. If you can just establish a facility to preserve and temporarily store patients, they can be shipped in bulk to more cost efficient storage locations.
I think that's what I'd be most interested in seeing.
The scariest part about cryonics is that I might make $160k+ in insurance/annuity payments and then cryonics fails because it wasn't for everyone. What then if I die and cryonics isn't available? The $1.5-2.5M insurance policy I purchased will probably go to someone who wouldn't care that I was deprived of cryonics and spent my life working for that end. I'd be much happier and much more willing to loose $5-8k or less, but devotion to making payments until I'm 120 that totals $161k+ is very risky. If it doesn't happen, I might have been better off choosing to live better and spending that money on finding a more fulfilling lifestyle. The price for me at present means sacrificing what's left of my youth in many respects and that's why we lack numbers and growth. I hope they are addressing this at the cryonics conference in Laughlin NV this year. Too many people are dieing permanently. I want to live forever, but I know there are just too many who won't make the sacrifices due to the cost and the attitude of the majority is that we don't have the right to live more than once and when we die, that's it. That attitude needs to be changed, and it's unlikely to change on it's own or without becoming a more attractive option that becomes widely accepted.
Given that reflection, we need to focus on bringing the cost down. When people insist that the price remain high, it makes me feel like the cryonics community has been hijacked and been turned into a scam by people who believe that people who want to live longer owe life insurance payouts to people who aren't going to live forever. It just fits the profile of that type of scam.
Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:07 AM
I think that most of the cost of cryonics for most of the people (that is, non US and non Russian people) are the costs before cryopreservation. Suppose my wife has a terminal cancer and doctors say she has 3 months remaining life. Since she can't be cryopreserved in Spain and even standby is illegal, we have to move to the US or Russia and stay there 3 months (or more). We have to pay for a trip, rent a house for 3 months, pay medical care for 3 months without medical insurance, pay for a translator, pay for a lawyer, etc. That will be 1-2 orders of magnitude more expensive than the cryopreservation procedure.
Edited by Antonio2014, 11 November 2014 - 07:09 AM.
Posted 11 November 2014 - 11:48 AM
The most important thing is to freeze more people. It would be far better to mass market low cost cryonics than it would to save a few thousand dollars on the procedure. If you can just establish a facility to preserve and temporarily store patients, they can be shipped in bulk to more cost efficient storage locations.
Absolutely. This is also my way of hinking.
I think that most of the cost of cryonics for most of the people (that is, non US and non Russian people) are the costs before cryopreservation. Suppose my wife has a terminal cancer and doctors say she has 3 months remaining life. Since she can't be cryopreserved in Spain and even standby is illegal, we have to move to the US or Russia and stay there 3 months (or more). We have to pay for a trip, rent a house for 3 months, pay medical care for 3 months without medical insurance, pay for a translator, pay for a lawyer, etc. That will be 1-2 orders of magnitude more expensive than the cryopreservation procedure.
Unfortunately these are inevitable costs. Again something goes in my mind, but I am a bit afraid to make even more not 100% checked out predictions. Bulgaria is a part of the European Union, and because of that the european health insurance card will be valid here. The food here is supposed to be cheaper, than in Spain. Actually, the costs of living are low here, and many retireing people from other countries purchase an appartment or a house in Bulgaria, move to live here, and live well with their pensions (which they can't do in their country). But the cost for the trip, the home, translator and the lawer seem inevitable.
Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:27 PM
So what can we do to give cryonics mass appeal?
The way I see it, very few (such as those signed up currently or which there are around 1500 living and preserved since 1968?) will commit such larges sums to a risk such as cryonics. So we need to focus on those things that will radically lower the cost. The Merkle plan is probably the most useful for this and I'm of the mind that if we say and show that we're going to build it, the numbers will come as reducing the risk from a lifetime of insurance payments to single $5k payment or $5k paid out over the course of several years is much less risky. I've begun a project to this end and will be working out some related plans. We just need to get people behind it.
Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:40 PM
Also, forming a field cryopreservation team of EMTs and Paramedics is equally as important and will provide better, services until such time as cryonics facilities become part of every hospital or funeral house. In fact, it might be better to found a funeral parlor that serves everyone. We know that unless we start living forever that everyone will die and need those services, but being able to do both will help make the company sustainable, and when freezing long term is the same price as cremation and burial or less, people might just get it to save money. In the mean time, you could also store the field cryopreservation equipment and materials and the cephalons (heads) of the patients at the same facility until it becomes cost effective to mail a bunch of them to an efficient mass storage facility such as what we're hoping to see get built.
Posted 13 November 2014 - 02:37 AM
No one can say when, but it will become a hospital procedure when it's proven and reversible. So when will we prove cryonics? When we have enough patients to pay for substantial research or can find a philanthropist to fund the project.
When it becomes proven and reversible it will likely be paid for by conventional health insurance. If pharma and hospitals prove it, I imagine you'll need a Rx for it something like that though... It may or may not be used for the purpose of living forever...
I'd like to hear what others think on this one though.
Posted 13 November 2014 - 08:06 AM
I imagine several avenues to make cryonics widespread:
- Make it cheaper (or at least the same price) than burial/cremation.
- Advance research and show that it works on mammals.
- Big marketing campaign by some cryonics company.
In any of these cases, we need quite a big sum of money.
Edited by Antonio2014, 13 November 2014 - 08:06 AM.
Posted 13 November 2014 - 10:55 AM
Unexpected bad news for making cheap cryonics abroad. When the patient is vitrified, (s)he has to be placed in a dewar. I researched several dewars, and found some cheap ones, large enough to hold a human, but they appaeared to be with a very small throat (if I may say it like that). So, if there is no way for the patient to get inside the dewar, then the dewars has to be custom made and the cost of the dewar itself can reach 18 000 dollars. So, when the patient is cryopreserved, and if (s)he wants to own the dewar, in order for his/her relatives to transport, or the patient to be maintained by relatives, the cost rises much and may go even with the Cryonics Institute cost. This was like a sudden heart attack against the idea for making cheap cryonics in another countries. If someone knows where can be made cheaper large dewars, with large enough hole, through which the vitrified human can be placed inside, now is the moment to shine with knowledge.
Posted 13 November 2014 - 06:43 PM
Unexpected bad news for making cheap cryonics abroad. When the patient is vitrified, (s)he has to be placed in a dewar. I researched several dewars, and found some cheap ones, large enough to hold a human, but they appaeared to be with a very small throat (if I may say it like that). So, if there is no way for the patient to get inside the dewar, then the dewars has to be custom made and the cost of the dewar itself can reach 18 000 dollars. So, when the patient is cryopreserved, and if (s)he wants to own the dewar, in order for his/her relatives to transport, or the patient to be maintained by relatives, the cost rises much and may go even with the Cryonics Institute cost. This was like a sudden heart attack against the idea for making cheap cryonics in another countries. If someone knows where can be made cheaper large dewars, with large enough hole, through which the vitrified human can be placed inside, now is the moment to shine with knowledge.
Maybe you should ask the Cryonics Institute.
Posted 14 November 2014 - 02:12 AM
Unexpected bad news for making cheap cryonics abroad. When the patient is vitrified, (s)he has to be placed in a dewar. I researched several dewars, and found some cheap ones, large enough to hold a human, but they appaeared to be with a very small throat (if I may say it like that). So, if there is no way for the patient to get inside the dewar, then the dewars has to be custom made and the cost of the dewar itself can reach 18 000 dollars. So, when the patient is cryopreserved, and if (s)he wants to own the dewar, in order for his/her relatives to transport, or the patient to be maintained by relatives, the cost rises much and may go even with the Cryonics Institute cost. This was like a sudden heart attack against the idea for making cheap cryonics in another countries. If someone knows where can be made cheaper large dewars, with large enough hole, through which the vitrified human can be placed inside, now is the moment to shine with knowledge.
Whole body is overrated. Only the head needs to be kept. We're printing organs, I'm sure we'll eventually be able to print entire bodies or will have access to the information to do so. Dewars also need to be replaced periodically as they fail and implode every 30 or so years (there are warning signs). The newer ones might last longer, but 30-40 is about the age of those Alcor has been replacing IIRC. CI's custom made ones might last longer, are repairable, and will be lower cost and higher efficiency, but all you really need to be able to do is store heads in the short term. A restaurant freezer that opens from the top that has been converted to run on LN2 with a substantial reserve could be enough if you'll have 10-20 or so heads to split the shipping cost to a high capacity storage facility. More research on that last statement is warranted.
The opening on a bottle is generally referred to as a neck in English.
Posted 14 November 2014 - 11:33 AM
Thanks for the information, PerC
I didn't know about the restaurant freezers on liquid nitrogen. I will try to find such with their costs. I wonder if there will be such, that manage to hold an entire human, or will have big enough door. I also,simmilarly to you believe, that in the future, the science will allow the head to survive, and the rest of the body may not be needed. However, if we manage to find a way for cheap preservation of the entire body, why not keep it also.
The custom made dewars, cappable of repairment is also a very nice idea. It seems, that the CI really have went very further with the knowledge in cheaper vitrification.
I noticed also, that there have been attempts to build cryonic companies in cheaper countries, such as China and India, and the attempts has failed, probabbly accompanied with the loss of not a small amount of investor's money. Probabbly there are also other unexpected big obstacles.
Posted 14 November 2014 - 02:41 PM
They are like these:
http://blog.recetags...tas-500x375.png
http://cocinayaficio...e-nitrogeno.jpg
And you have the IVF freezers:
http://www.advancedf...om/cryolab1.htm
Edited by Antonio2014, 14 November 2014 - 03:00 PM.
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