122 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

Thanks for the information, PerC

 

I didn't know about the restaurant freezers on liquid nitrogen. I will try to find such with their costs. I wonder if there will be such, that manage to hold an entire human, or will have big enough door. I also,simmilarly to you believe, that in the future, the science will allow the head to survive, and the rest of the body may not be needed. However, if we manage to find a way for cheap preservation of the entire body, why not keep it also.

 

The custom made dewars, cappable of repairment is also a very nice idea. It seems, that the CI really have went very further with the knowledge in cheaper vitrification.

 

I noticed also, that there have been attempts to build cryonic companies in cheaper countries, such as China and India, and the attempts has failed, probabbly accompanied with the loss of not a small amount of investor's money. Probabbly there are also other unexpected big obstacles.

There are some which are in formation, but I don't think any have openned or failed outside of the US and UK. It takes a decade to organize something like this. Look into Stassis Systems Australia.

[YOLF]

The same problem ... the openining is too small to tickle a head or a corpse through it.

It seems, that dewars have to be custom - made after all.

I'm talking about something more like this:

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Such a freezer would be perfect. Are there such, that run on liquid nitrogen, and keep LN2 temperature? I proceed searching

[YOLF]

For a liquid nitrogen freezer, one only needs a vessel to hold the LN2 to be in something else and open. If you pour LN2 into a bowl and place it in the freezer above, that would make it a LN2 freezer. Drill a hole in and let the LN2 pour into something and you can refill it without opening it. CI did all their own designs. You'd get the best information from them.

[Antonio2014]

I did some research recently and I think the most expensive part of cryonics is standby and transport, not the cryopreservation. And it's even more expensive for international patients. That's why Alcor is so expensive, they, unlike CI, provide all the services: cryopreservation, standby, transport and even revival. Regarding European patients, maybe there is a mean to make standby costs cheaper. In Switzerland, euthanasia is legal, even for non citizens. So, if you have a terminal disease, you can go to Switzerland, commit suicide and be cryopreserved cheaper and faster. Also, if you have a neurodegenerative disease, you can be cryopreserved before your brain is unrecoverably damaged, using euthanasia. The only problem is that Switzerland is a very expensive country.

 

We are in great need of legislative reform in Europe. All would be much more easier and cheaper if cryonics and euthanasia were legal.

Edited by Antonio2014, 16 November 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Sounds logic. The transport I think is the easiest to plan and make by yourself. Well... in cases of sudden death, it isn't. But if you know averagely, that you are currently dying slowly and will die in several months, you may plan the trip to the cryonics company, and it will again cost you the cost of the cryopreservation. This is valid for no matter whaere you want to be cryopreserved. It will be nice if the Swiss people make a cheap cryonics company.

[Antonio2014]

Sounds logic. The transport I think is the easiest to plan and make by yourself. Well... in cases of sudden death, it isn't. But if you know averagely, that you are currently dying slowly and will die in several months, you may plan the trip to the cryonics company, and it will again cost you the cost of the cryopreservation. This is valid for no matter whaere you want to be cryopreserved.

 

Still, the standby will be expensive. You don't know which time you will die, so you need a medical team 24/7 near your bed to make the preparations for preservation, and also an independent doctor or qualified nurse that can certify the death. Both are expensive.

[YOLF]

I did some research recently and I think the most expensive part of cryonics is standby and transport, not the cryopreservation. And it's even more expensive for international patients. That's why Alcor is so expensive, they, unlike CI, provide all the services: cryopreservation, standby, transport and even revival. Regarding European patients, maybe there is a mean to make standby costs cheaper. In Switzerland, euthanasia is legal, even for non citizens. So, if you have a terminal disease, you can go to Switzerland, commit suicide and be cryopreserved cheaper and faster. Also, if you have a neurodegenerative disease, you can be cryopreserved before your brain is unrecoverably damaged, using euthanasia. The only problem is that Switzerland is a very expensive country.

 

We are in great need of legislative reform in Europe. All would be much more easier and cheaper if cryonics and euthanasia were legal.

You're right. Standby and transport are expensive. The Merkle plan is able to bring costs down to $5k for whole body by storing all patients in a single giant dewar and having lots of places where patients would be frozen and temporarily stored locally. If we had several sites across the EU, we could drive around, pick them up and ship them to the mass storage facility in a single shipment and save tons of money on transportation and standby.

[YOLF]

 

Sounds logic. The transport I think is the easiest to plan and make by yourself. Well... in cases of sudden death, it isn't. But if you know averagely, that you are currently dying slowly and will die in several months, you may plan the trip to the cryonics company, and it will again cost you the cost of the cryopreservation. This is valid for no matter whaere you want to be cryopreserved.

 

Still, the standby will be expensive. You don't know which time you will die, so you need a medical team 24/7 near your bed to make the preparations for preservation, and also an independent doctor or qualified nurse that can certify the death. Both are expensive.

 

Declaring patients legally dead is done routinely and can be done by those who do the rest of the procedure. In any case, this is why we need local cryopreservation centers everywhere and enough patients support so many cryocenters as it negates the need and expense of local standby. Let's face it, doing it the way we are already, as inexpensive as it has become is still pricing a significant portion of the population out of cryonics. Some have the huge sums to spend on it, others have need of spending that money elsewhere and just can't afford it. 

 

We have to realize that people have plans to buy things when they spend more than $1000 on something, esp when they spend $80-88k on cryonics. If they weren't planning to do so, they won't at that price. Compared to other things in that range are cars, homes, major home improvement, annuities, businesses and so forth. These aren't things that people just buy and more often than not, people don't buy the things they want in this price range. The price has to drop, if we think we'll be successful at swaying the general public to get cryonics at the current rates, we're deluding ourselves with wishful thinking and that's why progress in cryonics has been this slow.

[Antonio2014]

Declaring patients legally dead is done routinely and can be done by those who do the rest of the procedure.

 

 

At least at Alcor, they use independent staff to certify death, maybe because in the past they were charged with homicide.

Edited by Antonio2014, 17 November 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[ceridwen]

Antonio you can not go to Switzerland use Dignitas and then be cryo preserved. At least with the provider I'm using. They said this would be seen as taking someone who had committed suicide and they won't touch it. I wondered about changing my provided to the one in Oregon where assisted suicide is legal because I have a neurodegenerative diseases. If anyone can give me any advice as to what I could do. I want to preserve as much of me as possible and if my current therapy does not work I am going to need those services at some point

[Danail Bulgaria]

To preserve as much of you, as possible means full body cryopreservation. In the USA the cheapest way I know of is to use the services of the Cryonics Institute. Another not this expensive way is to do that with CryoRus in Moscow.

[Antonio2014]

Ceridwen, which is your provider?

 

Seivtcho, I think Ceridwen is referring to as undamaged a brain as possible, not to as complete a body as possible.

 

There has been some cases of suicide at Alcor: http://www.alcor.org...eservation.html

Edited by Antonio2014, 17 November 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[Antonio2014]

For a Spanish citizen, including all the expenses (transportation, etc.), cryonics costs roughly like a house. Costs must be hugely reduced before cryonics becomes more popular.

Edited by Antonio2014, 17 November 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[YOLF]

Antonio you can not go to Switzerland use Dignitas and then be cryo preserved. At least with the provider I'm using. They said this would be seen as taking someone who had committed suicide and they won't touch it. I wondered about changing my provided to the one in Oregon where assisted suicide is legal because I have a neurodegenerative diseases. If anyone can give me any advice as to what I could do. I want to preserve as much of me as possible and if my current therapy does not work I am going to need those services at some point

This is another thing that has to change... suicide is just hitting pause for a cryonicist and it needs to be understood this way by the general public. Controlled suicide plays a very important role in an timely and high quality cryopreservation. The outcome for other patients isn't nearly as good and suicide is an inherent right that people have. I'm fairly certain that reanimated cryonicists would never face a penalty for committing suicide. 

 

The real problem lies in that cryonics is life insurance funded and for the most part, suicide isn't covered by life insurance, or at the very least, it complicates things. This is another reason we need cryonics that doesn't need to be funded with insurance.

[YOLF]

For a Spanish citizen, including all the expenses (transportation, etc.), cryonics costs roughly like a house. Costs must be hugely reduced before cryonics becomes more popular.

Exactly! People buy houses/mortgages because they planned on it for years and have assumed they would have one for their entire life... Same with cars. People just don't wake up and decide to spend $80-90k or commit themselves to a long term payment for things like this. In a generation, if we had every kid banking on their cryopreservation someday, then we might become a little more successful among wealth buyers... But to get the masses in on it... that will require a new level of affordability and a more profitable buying "pathology."

[ceridwen]

Regarding the link above as far as I know cryonics is illegal in the Netherlands

[Antonio2014]

Can you post some link? I want to add it to the legal status thread.

[Antonio2014]

I'm seriously considering signing a contract with KrioRus. Neuro is really cheap (12000$) and I think I can afford it in one year or two. Standby is not included, nevertheless.

 

Air trip from Spain is around 2- or 3-times cheaper than flying to the US, and stay and health care are probably much cheaper than in the US.

Edited by Antonio2014, 27 December 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[Antonio2014]

Here is information about building cryostats: http://web.archive.o.../cryostats.html

[Douglas Delvaux]

I would not want to be cryopreserved in such a facility. One single point of failure. One earthquake, one calamity, and 5.5 million people thawed/dead. I understand the desire for economics of scale, but survivability is more important. Smaller dewars can be moved, can be handled by hand if neccessary, easier to maintain by a small staff, etc... Having smaller cryo-storage facilities in many countries would be more robust.

I do not like the current situation of cryogenic, but in the absence of better options is something to consider. Speaking in place large-scale frozen heads, i think it is mounted, in a strategic location on the planet, has a good chance of success, of course, can happen to drop a meteor or future civilization die by global warming, but as the it can not do much.

[Julia36]

I think we could lobby for it as a human right.

[Julia36]

This is certainly feasible right now:

 

crowdsourcing the money

 

People could simply pay $200 via PayPal which gives them an instant coded number

 

and if the target fund it reached, they get the right to suspension for $4000 (or whatever)

 

if not its refunded less say $5 admin costs.

May be possible to do a deal with Alcor for a cheap suspension eg freeze only no perfusion..ur head is just chopped off and thrown into a freezer. You wouldn't need paperwork as brain scans in the future would tell you everything about the person.

 

The costs are going to be cooling, and solar might do this?

 

 

 

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

If your aim is only to cut your head and throw it in the dewar with liquid nitrogen, then you can do that at home. Dewars that size are not that expensive, and the cost of liquid itrogen is a dollar a liter. You simply will have to find some one, who to refill your dewar periodically.

 

Ofcourse, you will also need to find some one to cut off your head after your death.

Edited by seivtcho, 20 July 2015 - 04:57 AM.

[ceridwen]

After a generation or so care may fail whereas with an Institution they is more pressure on it not to fail and to continue to store you at optimum conditions

[Rib Jig]

Yolf,

 

Thanks for this thread!!!  You forgot Be-Del-Aware...

Just started investigating cryonics for me & wifey.

Some questions:

a. why are some willing to pay Alcor $220K rather than CI $28K + $1200+ memb. fee??!!

(am guessing, from your Alcor video link, its because Alcor spends $$ to make facility look

very polished & that impresses $$millionaires $$billionaires?)

(the Alcor guy in video is so well groomed, I imagine him driving an Alcorized Bentley)

(FYI, Alcor email follow-up is horrible = one person telling me another person will get back,

going on three days now, as a result I went on to learn of CI)

(is there a CI video?  I hope they look & dress more like Einsteins)

b. what, if anything, do I get with Alcor, that I don't get with CI -- besides lower humidity?

c. is there any organization that is clear leader in updating asap to the very latest "best" techniques?

 

IMO, affording cryonics is of the highest priority;  higher that current unneccesary comforts;

use public transportation if one has to, get a second job if one has to, rent cheaper flat if

one has to, forego ALL luxuries, cancel subscriptions, etc. etc. etc.  No Freeze-R-Us for me!!!

 

Personally, I want the best scheme available on day of my legal death at lowest price, not

what was the best scheme available a year before my legal death!!!

 

 

Edited by Rib Jig, 25 September 2015 - 02:10 AM.

[PWAIN]

Alcor puts aside a lot more cash for patient care ie. They assume the worst in terms of investment returns which are used for things like rent, staff and liquid nitrogen. Both orgs are mostly volunteer and I've not seen anyone get rich in cryonics.

[Antonio2014]

(a) (b) Alcor covers standby costs, CI doesn't.

 

( c) http://www.brainpreservation.org/

Edited by Antonio2014, 25 September 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I am looking for a lawyer in Bulgaria, who is keen of immortality ideas. For discussing the feasability of the cheap cryonics firm project in terms of law. If you know some one like that, it is the time to point him to me. 

[Rib Jig]

This thread has scared me off CI:

 

http://lesswrong.com...nics_institute/

 

(unlocked tanks, only 1 or 2 full time employees, apparently sloppy techniques, etc.)

(Alcor is criticized in thread, too, but for not maintaining highest possible standards)