28 replies to this topic

[Brain_Ischemia]

Just wondering if anyone else has found that depression and suicidal ideation are side effects of choline supplementation?

It's been difficult for me to nail this down as I've struggled with lifelong depression and suicidal ideation since childhood. As an adult, I've learned to manage and cope with these issues so that intensity and frequency are much reduced (after antidepressants failed to yield benefit). In the last few years, however, I've found that extremely intense depressive episodes seem to coincide almost perfectly with the use of supplemental choline. I first noticed this when using Alpha GPC but ultimately doubted that it was causal. Recently, I started using supplemental choline again (Phosphatidylcholine) and experienced an episode that's as powerful as any I've ever had. Since discontinuing use a few days ago, the symptoms have since subsided.
 
I've done some brief searching on a link between choline and suicidal ideation but not come up with much (I don't have much time these days).
 
Has anyone had similar experiences with choline?

Edited by caliban, 17 April 2018 - 07:39 AM.
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[Brain_Ischemia]

BTW:

Timely...

 

http://www.northwest...-in-adults.html

 

http://www.nature.co.../tp201466a.html

[normalizing]

same here. choline is fucking nightmare. any type, any form just gives me anxiety and enhances already depression within normal range. not sure why but i really wish there is scientific explaination as to why choline supplementation would cause depression in some but not others. its sad because, choline is the most natural best way to enhance cognition but counter acts it with RAGE

[Godof Smallthings]

Too much choline does induce a negative emotional state in me (irritation, bad mood, even anger), so while I have not experienced suicidal ideation when on it, I could see how it might push a person with stronger depressive tendencies than me into such. Alpha GPC has been the most noticeably negative cholinergic supp for me.

 

Too much acetylcholineesterase inhibitors can also induce negative effects, but I have found I can deal with some bacopa monnieri, clitoria ternatea or centella asiatica - I just have to be careful not to combine them or take excessive doses.

 

I suspect my choline levels are fairly high at baseline.

[nefarious one]

haven't posted in a long time, but this one caught my attention.

 

earlier this year I dealt with a lot of stress... and not just usual stress, but rather stuff on like the 9 out of 10 degree of f*cked-upness - only to where 10/10 would be a terminal event, to put it in perspective.

 

i had never supp'd with choline before and was using it daily during that time.  at a few points over the course of 2.5 months i was definitely the 'darkest' i've ever felt before, ever.  i can absolutely attest to the anxiety ^100 as well.  

 

anyway - i'm glad you're off of it now.  and please let those around you pull you away from that darkness... it's a terrible place to be and i hope the best for you.

[xEva]

same here. by chance i found what counteracts it: fly agaric brew or levamisole, in small quantities of course. 

[drstrangeglove]

Choline supplementation is certainly not for everyone, you may even want to try something that would reduce your acetylcholine levels like piracetam. 

[normalizing]

but reducing acetylcholine levels is opposite of the cognitive enhancing effect. why would you do that.

[Plasticperson]

i experience this too. I'm starting to think the depression is due to the down regulation of the conversion of serine to glycine. excess choline breaks down into glycine. serine is directly converted to glycine. This conversion methylates (activates) folate. When excess glycine is present it would make sense for the body to down regulated the conversion of serine to glycine which decreases the amount of activated folate. This is actually one of the main ways that folate is methylated (activated). Folate has effects on activating neurotransmitters.

 

http://www.biocarta....cinePathway.asp

[Brain_Ischemia]

Interesting... I'm actually taking glycine (3 g/day), but my most recent suicidal episode subsided virtually instantaneously as soon as I stopped choline supplementation. As I said, I would've chalked this up to coincidence (and did...the first time); it's only that I've now noted the correlation again and again and again.

 

Regarding folate, I had good results with quatrefolic and I'm considering trying it again...

http://www.quatrefolic.com/

[fntms]

Choline type supplements definitely make me depressed, anxious and angry (at those too slow to follow me), except at very low doses.
Experimenting now with low doses of dmae for extra drive and cognition ...
I have found that sulbutiamine gives some of the benefits of choline (better memory, fluency...) without the negative effects, or much less so... I also take it for other unusual effects (stops my palpitations)...

[normalizing]

i experience this too. I'm starting to think the depression is due to the down regulation of the conversion of serine to glycine. excess choline breaks down into glycine. serine is directly converted to glycine. This conversion methylates (activates) folate. When excess glycine is present it would make sense for the body to down regulated the conversion of serine to glycine which decreases the amount of activated folate. This is actually one of the main ways that folate is methylated (activated). Folate has effects on activating neurotransmitters.

 

http://www.biocarta....cinePathway.asp

 

so are you suggesting maybe supplement with folate and/or glycine and then add choline supplementation to kind of supress negative impact by choline only or just saying avoid choline all together and maybe concentrate on glycine and/or folate for cognition?

[Galaxyshock]

- Magnesium decreases acetylcholine release

- Lavender oil is a natural anticholinergic. This was rather wonderful discovery how it rapidly relieved that awful state of excess cholinergic activity.

[Plasticperson]

 

i experience this too. I'm starting to think the depression is due to the down regulation of the conversion of serine to glycine. excess choline breaks down into glycine. serine is directly converted to glycine. This conversion methylates (activates) folate. When excess glycine is present it would make sense for the body to down regulated the conversion of serine to glycine which decreases the amount of activated folate. This is actually one of the main ways that folate is methylated (activated). Folate has effects on activating neurotransmitters.

 

http://www.biocarta....cinePathway.asp

 

so are you suggesting maybe supplement with folate and/or glycine and then add choline supplementation to kind of supress negative impact by choline only or just saying avoid choline all together and maybe concentrate on glycine and/or folate for cognition?

 

No not glycine!.. Glycine will down regulate the conversion from serine to glycine which is what methylates folate. Take serine. essentially you would need at least a  1:1 dose of serine to glycine to avoid any negative effects of choline. now choline not ps or ac is 72% glycine so just multiply your dose by .72 to determine how much serine you need to take to counteract the negative effects.

 

In my opinion its better to take the serine than the folate.. balance the system and fix the source of the problem not just the problem itself.

Edited by Plasticperson, 13 October 2014 - 03:56 PM.

[Plasticperson]

I also think serine has the ability to produce some cognitive effects

[normalizing]

i took sublingual glycine tho and it pumped up my sex desire. im not sure what the fuck was that about

[Simon Silver]

I remember at some point someone on this subforum posted that there was an inverse see-saw like correlation between acetylcholine and serotonin. I know l-tryptophan, l-phenylalanine, and l-tyrosine compete for the same transport mechanism, and the inverse correlation makes intuitive sense to me, acetylcholine based nootropics seem to make me more cerebral than empathetic. I just don't know if this acetylcholine-serotonin relationship is a fact or broscience/netlore. Does anyone with a deeper knowledge than me know if this is a fact?

[fntms]

-
- Lavender oil is a natural anticholinergic. This was rather wonderful discovery how it rapidly relieved that awful state of excess cholinergic activity.

Interesting, do you just swallow a few drops of the essential oil? I also read it has some effects on hormones...

[Galaxyshock]

 

-
- Lavender oil is a natural anticholinergic. This was rather wonderful discovery how it rapidly relieved that awful state of excess cholinergic activity.

Interesting, do you just swallow a few drops of the essential oil? I also read it has some effects on hormones...

 

 

Yes a few drops with water, and I also inhale the aroma, it works rapidly for relaxation. Haven't experienced any side effects.

[iseethelight]

 

 

i experience this too. I'm starting to think the depression is due to the down regulation of the conversion of serine to glycine. excess choline breaks down into glycine. serine is directly converted to glycine. This conversion methylates (activates) folate. When excess glycine is present it would make sense for the body to down regulated the conversion of serine to glycine which decreases the amount of activated folate. This is actually one of the main ways that folate is methylated (activated). Folate has effects on activating neurotransmitters.

 

http://www.biocarta....cinePathway.asp

 

so are you suggesting maybe supplement with folate and/or glycine and then add choline supplementation to kind of supress negative impact by choline only or just saying avoid choline all together and maybe concentrate on glycine and/or folate for cognition?

 

No not glycine!.. Glycine will down regulate the conversion from serine to glycine which is what methylates folate. Take serine. essentially you would need at least a  1:1 dose of serine to glycine to avoid any negative effects of choline. now choline not ps or ac is 72% glycine so just multiply your dose by .72 to determine how much serine you need to take to counteract the negative effects.

 

In my opinion its better to take the serine than the folate.. balance the system and fix the source of the problem not just the problem itself.

 

 

Hey Plasticsurgeon,

 

I think you're unto something here. What form of serine do you recommend for this? D or L- serine?

[gamesguru]

probably D, but they're good to switch up.  Glycine and taurine do have effects on acetycholine release as well.

The bit about glycine might explain why ginkgo isn't reported to have as many mood issues like other common supps.  They're all cholinergic, but ginkgo ups the glycine site after the fact.

 

I would take the lavender and magnesium more seriously too.  It's one of the cheaper oils, and use a spray bottle to spritz the house up a few times a week at least.  Closer to 30 drops tho.  I wouldn't drink it (the extraction process can be a bit crude), do a tea with dandelion or something.  You can even find other oils, but lavender is the most common.

[iseethelight]

probably D, but they're good to switch up.  Glycine and taurine do have effects on acetycholine release as well.

The bit about glycine might explain why ginkgo isn't reported to have as many mood issues like other common supps.  They're all cholinergic, but ginkgo ups the glycine site after the fact.

 

I would take the lavender and magnesium more seriously too.  It's one of the cheaper oils, and use a spray bottle to spritz the house up a few times a week at least.  Closer to 30 drops tho.  I wouldn't drink it (the extraction process can be a bit crude), do a tea with dandelion or something.  You can even find other oils, but lavender is the most common.

 

I've tried d-serine and sarcosine(serine precursor) in the past, they've all made me very tired and achy and worsens my anhedonia. I tried l-serine before but can't recall how I felt, so I'm going to try it again..

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Yes the neurotransmitter acetylcholine can cause depression, just as the neurotransmitter serotonin can. I get moody/depressive from both fish oil and tryptophan/anything serotonergic. Now, which receptor's activation causes the acetylcholine problems, that I don't know but would love to know.

[sthira]

Reading what people blessed without depression think causes depression also causes depression.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I guess when I am about to kill myself by cutting my own throat I will send you a picture in a pm and you'll let me know in the hereafter whether that's really depression or that's totally fake.

[sthira]

No, please don't slit your throat and attempt suicide: that would be a horrible tragedy.

But I know what it's like when people look at you in the face and say you, you're depressed, what have you got to be depressed about, seems to me like you've got it pretty good, ever been to Cameroon where kids are so poor that they can't even drink clean water, yet they're not depressed so why should you be depressed?

And then they look at you from far away. And it's almost like now, well, now I've got to somehow prove to this unconscious fuck that yes I am, too, depressed...

I know this well.

But don't kill yourself, we all have to die in the decades ahead, might as well stick around and find something to laugh at. One thing to laugh at is people who don't have depression advising us on why we have it and how to solve it. Cheer up! They say excitedly: turn that frown upside down.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

One thing is for certain, when people have to announce their "depression" to others then it is insignificant. And when people threaten suicide but don't follow through with it, it is insignificant. And when women claim to be depressed I always laugh it off as whore play.

And no, don't call the poh-leash please, I am not depressed right now - I can't be - that's the sweet part affective issues, you know when you have a short range of emotions and don't really feel anything.

[sthira]

Women are statistically more likely to find themselves deep in depression than that other gender. And many women are and were victims: sexually assaulted, abused, traumatic reasons abound to tilt toward depression. Women are also paid less fairly for equal employment, have fewer rights on the world stage, may have more education yet fewer career opportunities, and women are usually smarter than men, mature more quickly, discover what their roles are expected to be in this pointless life, and so to deny women their feelings is injustice.

And when women claim to be depressed I always laugh it off as whore play.

This is actually a sad commentary about your drawn conclusion, and not about women. The sooner you disavow yourself of this the sooner you may reach peace and prosperity, PeaceAndProsperity.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I think the reason women are more prone to emotional outburst and such is due to female hormones increasing acetylcholine and serotonin primarily. Those two neurotransmitters cause most of female personality traits alone, everything from empathy to all the other personality traits. I know for a fact that whenever I take anything that increases acetylcholine while having high serotonin I feel exactly how I assume women on birth control pills feel like.

So it makes perfect sense that depression is linked to these two neurotransmitters.