20 replies to this topic

[cuprous]

I know many folks here take metformin for its ability to control blood sugar and supposed life extension capabilities.  Since it's prescription only in the US I was wondering if berberine would be considered a viable analog on the life extension front (it controls blood glucose to the same degree) or whether metformin has benefits not present in berberine.

[albedo]

Sorry if you have seen this already but while not answering your question on the longevity effect you might find it interesting:

http://examine.com/s...ents/Berberine/

[Darryl]

I take 500mg/d berberine HCl. I'd prefer to have a prescription for metformin, as I'm not entirely satified with respect to berberine's activity as a DNA intercalator/topoisomerase inhibitor.

 

More here. Only a sampling, given the high interest from Chinese labs. No week goes by without at least a couple articles with "berberine" in the title in Google Scholar alerts.

Edited by Darryl, 16 October 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[Dolph]

I wouldn't think of berberine as a viable metformine alternative. The last time I checked its mode of action is more similar to the glitazones. And we all know where these went...

[cuprous]

I wouldn't think of berberine as a viable metformine alternative. The last time I checked its mode of action is more similar to the glitazones. And we all know where these went...

 

Can you expand on that?   Wikipedia says the issue with glitazones was liver damage whereas Examine cites nothing but positive and protective effects on the liver.

[maxwatt]

I've tried berberine and compared it to metformin, using a glucose meter.  No comparison, at least for me.  If you cannot get a prescription for metformin, it is available on the internet.  Fears of acidosis are somewhat overblown for healthy people, but caution is in order.

 

There are three things I have found lower my fasting glucose:  a shot of Jack Daniels the night before, genuine Sichuan food, most specifically Ma Po Tofu, and medical marijuana.  All are more effective than metformin.

 

WRT Chinese food: traveling in South China, mostly Hunan, I found on return that my fasting glucose was significantly lower for a few weeks.  Then a real Sichuan restaurant opened in my neighborhood, clientele is 90% Chinese.  It lowers my blood sugar.  Especially the Ma Po Tofu.  Why, or what?  Particular spices?  Maybe the cumin and cinnamon and hot peppers?  And the Tofu?  Cumin is supposed to be an effective blood sugar lowering herb, but Mexican food is full of it and has no such effect for me.

[Dolph]

 

I wouldn't think of berberine as a viable metformine alternative. The last time I checked its mode of action is more similar to the glitazones. And we all know where these went...

 

Can you expand on that?   Wikipedia says the issue with glitazones was liver damage whereas Examine cites nothing but positive and protective effects on the liver.

 

 

The problems with glitazones weren't so much liver damage but increased risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer and bone fractures...

[PerfectSeek]

Metformin is very well studied, why would you want to use Berberine instead?

 

Berberine effects a huge amount of biological pathways, the long-term human impacts of which are relatively unstudied.  Metformin is probably "cleaner".  

[Dolph]

I guess the reason is that the OP isn't a type2-diabetic but wants to use the metformin for other purposes but doesn't get a prescription? 

I stumbled across this some time ago, Interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20003839

Edited by Dolph, 18 October 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[PerfectSeek]

I guess the reason is that the OP isn't a type2-diabetic but wants to use the metformin for other purposes but doesn't get a prescription? 

I stumbled across this some time ago, Interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20003839

 

Thanks, I didn't read the OPs post closely enough.  In theory, berberine could have life extending properties, and does act on similar pathways to metformin.  

 

You could probably obtain metformin somewhere without a prescription if you looked hard enough I bet.  I still wouldn't be taking berberine long term myself.  

 

Interesting study re: creatine.  Creatine is a pretty outstanding, well researched, safe supplement.  I wonder why there is not more discussion on it from this board - it seems like it should be part of many people's regimens.  

Edited by PerfectSeek, 18 October 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[cuprous]

I guess the reason is that the OP isn't a type2-diabetic but wants to use the metformin for other purposes but doesn't get a prescription? 

I stumbled across this some time ago, Interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20003839

 

That's very interesting about creatine.. I'll have to research more.

 

Yes, my question was not whether people found berberine effective but whether it would presumably have the same life-extending effect as metformin given the similar ability to reduce Hba1c and blood sugar. Anecdote - it reduced my own Hba1c levels by 0.8.

 

Not that the examine.com page for berberine is the authoritative source for everything but it lists a wide array of positive effects with only a couple relatively insignificant negatives.

[tintinet]

I take creatine fairly regularly, and I just had a disability insurance physical with lab tests. Fasting glucose 60 mg/dl, FWIW (likely not much.)

 

 

[albedo]

Does someone out there has a comment on a possible effect of carnitine supplementation on homocysteine level? I put on hold metformin as I need to recheck that level prior to give it a try. Again, apologizes if not replying the original question in Cuprous's first post but Dolph's one triggered again another question.

[krillin]

Berberine can lower tyrosine hydroxylase and dopamine.

 

Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2009 Mar;6(1):85-90. 

Inhibitory Effects of Coptidis rhizoma and Berberine on Cocaine-induced Sensitization.

Lee B, Yang CH, Hahm DH, Choe ES, Lee HJ, Pyun KH, Shim I. 

Abstract 

Substantial evidence suggests that the behavioral and reinforcing effects of cocaine can be mediated by the central dopaminergic systems. Repeated injections of cocaine produce an increase in locomotor activity and the expression of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH) in the main dopaminergic areas. Protoberberine alkaloids affect neuronal functions. Coptidis rhizoma (CR) and its main compound, berberine (BER) reduced the dopamine content in the central nervous system. In order to investigate the effects of CR or BER on the repeated cocaine-induced neuronal and behavioral alterations, we examined the influence of CR or BER on the repeated cocaine-induced locomotor activity and the expression of TH in the brain by using immunohistochemistry. Male SD rats were given repeated injections of saline or cocaine hydrochloride (15 mg/kg, i.p. for 10 consecutive days) followed by one challenge injection on the 4th day after the last daily injection. Cocaine challenge (15 mg/kg, i.p) produced a larger increase in locomotor activity and expression of TH in the central dopaminergic areas. Pretreatment with CR (50, 100, 200 and 400 mg/kg, p.o.) and BER (200 mg/kg, p.o.) 30 min before the daily injections of cocaine significantly inhibited the cocaine-induced locomotor activity as well as TH expression in the central dopaminergic areas. Our data demonstrate that the inhibitory effects of CR and BER on the repeated cocaine-induced locomotor activity were closely associated with the reduction of dopamine biosynthesis and post-synaptic neuronal activity. These results suggest that CR and BER may be effective for inhibiting the behavioral effects of cocaine by possibly modulating the central dopaminergic system. 

PMID:     18955248

 

Neurosci Lett. 2010 Dec 3;486(1):29-33. 

Effects of berberine on 6-hydroxydopamine-induced neurotoxicity in PC12 cells and a rat model of Parkinson's disease.

Kwon IH, Choi HS, Shin KS, Lee BK, Lee CK, Hwang BY, Lim SC, Lee MK.

Abstract 

Protoberberine isoquinoline alkaloids including berberine inhibit dopamine biosynthesis and aggravate l-DOPA-induced cytotoxicity in PC12 cells. In this study, the effects of berberine on 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA)-induced cytotoxicity in PC12 cells and on unilateral 6-OHDA-lesioned rats were investigated. In PC12 cells, berberine at 10 and 30μM associated with 6-OHDA (10, 20, and 50μM) enhanced cytotoxicity at 48h compared to 6-OHDA alone, indicated by an increase in apoptotic cell death. In addition, treatment with berberine (5 and 30mg/kg, i.p.) for 21 days in 6-OHDA-lesioned rats markedly depleted tyrosine hydroxylase-immunopositive cells in the substantia nigra as compared to berberine-untreated rats. Further, the levels of dopamine and norepinephrine were also significantly decreased by berberine administration (5 and 30mg/kg) in the striatal regions of 6-OHDA-lesioned rats. These results suggested that berberine aggravated 6-OHDA-induced cytotoxicity in PC12 cells, and led to the degeneration of dopaminergic neuronal cells in the substantia nigra of 6-OHDA-lesioned rats. It is, therefore, suggested that the use of long-term l-DOPA therapy with isoquinoline derivatives including berberine may need to be examined for the presence of adverse symptoms. 

PMID:     20851167

[cuprous]

One-off, copy-and-paste abstracts are not very insightful.

 

Hey, look at this, in a different study berberine was shown to be a neuroprotective therapeutic agent for mice with Parkinsons.  

 

However, treatment with berberine enhanced motor balance and coordination by preventing dopaminergic neuronal damage. Treatment with berberine also improved short-term memory by inhibiting apoptosis in the hippocampus.

 

 

So what? There are 3,500 studies mentioning berberine on pubmed.

[AdamI]

I thought the main thing for taking Metformin as a anti aging "drug" was because of the extra oxygen the cells are capable of take, therefore reducing any production problems with the mitochondria that results in reactive oxygen is created that damages the cell/DNA

I'm assuming berberine has no such effect on oxygen uptake in cells??

[mccm98]

I was under the impression that berberine was just as effective as metformin in lowering blood sugar. Besides that, I am unaware of any differences. I do know that berberine is very useful when fasting as it promotes autophagy. It does this by upregulating AMPK and downregulating mTOR.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...2410097/?tool..

 

http://translational...2967-015-0450-z

 

I think berberine is the better choice when looking at price and availability here. I don't know whoever said that berberine hasn't been studied because it has been used in traditional Chinese medicine long before Metformin existed. Studies concerning berberine are pretty plentiful as well.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Berberine did absolutely nothing for my fasting blood glucose levels, which are in normal range but I'd like to get them a little bit lower. Going to try metformin next if I manage to get a prescription.

Edited by Captain Obvious, 04 April 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[OP2040]

I know this is an old thread, but I am currently investigating Berberine.  And also, I don't understand the logic of the previous poster.  If your fasting glucose is in normal range, then there is no reason to want it to go lower.  most aspects of the body is not a linear machine that can be made better and better.  It's a homeostatic process that is best when it is within a certain range.  Also, Berberine presumably does a lot more than just lower glucose.

 

Secondly, it's silly for people to ask why someone would choose this over Metformin.  Maybe because you don't need a prescription and can buy it on Amazon.  If it is at all comparable, that seems self-explanatory to me.

 

Is it comparable?  Still up for debate I guess.  The one thing that tipped me in favor if giving it a try is that it has the same actions as metformin on the microbiome.  And apparently a lot of metformins mojo takes place there as well.  I have an excellent microbiome with two significant exceptions, almost no Vitamin K2 action, and no Akkermansia.  both of which can be targeted by Berberine (and metformin).

[albedo]

... I have an excellent microbiome with two significant exceptions, almost no Vitamin K2 action, and no Akkermansia.  both of which can be targeted by Berberine (and metformin).

 

Hi OP, you might have seen this already on the thread on microbiome: progress to have an Akkermansia probiotic supplement:

https://uclouvain.be...in-off-ucl.html
 

[OP2040]

Thanks Albeda,

However, I've become quite cynical as we all know how fast "Progress" happens in the hands of the medico-pharmaco-FDA complex.  I'm curious if that company plans to patent a bacteria, or just a new way to deliver it.  I never knew there were patented bugs until I got into the microbiome stuff.

 

 

Three years from now, a first nutritional supplement will become available, based on a gut bacterium called Akkermansia

 

 

....based on active component isolated from A. muciniphila

 

Not sure if I'm underestimating the complexity of getting a bacteria to be inestible.  But I'm guessing this is more evidence of our broken system, since there are plenty of animal studies with Akkermansia where they use the actual microbe and it colonizes well enough.

 

That part that upsets me is not so much that some company can tweak something and patent it.  It's that, once that is done, the original microbe/substance falls off the face of the earth and you can't find it anywhere.  I'm not sure why that happens as you can just as easily sell the original.