28 replies to this topic

[LDK]

My introduction to this forum to share with your all my knowledge regarding euphoria, anxiety, depression, levodopa, 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-htp) and the relation towards

the HPA-axis (hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis).

 

Most experiences are reinforced by dopamine the chemical that gets released by all forms of stimulants and addictive drugs. Whenever this system gets depleted, lack of focus confidence and feelings of well being diminish.

It is also reported that people with low dopamine levels lack motivation to work for rewards. Dopamine is also involved in psychosis and hallucinations and parkinsons disease.

 

For me, the most interesting fact is about ecstasy. The drug induces a whole lot of positive effects initially. Feelings include euphoria, empathy, anxiolysis and energy.

 

When supplementing with L-dopa together with aromatic amino acid decarboxylase inhibition from EGCG (from green tea or raw cocoa beans) Dopamine gets charged and released. It even pushes noradrenaline out of the synaptic vesicles and replaces it with dopamine) When you add a subsequent dose of 150 mg 5-htp there is a rise in CRH and ACTH which induces a cortisol spike, without a need for bungy jumping or entering a rollercoaster. This cortisol spike will last for some time increasing dopamine/noradrenaline/adrenaline release and is the mechanism of action of MDMA.

 

Cortisol is part of a negative feedback loop on CRH. So taking a low starting dose of MDMA and gradually upping the dose will result in a blunted cortisol spike and no euphoric dopamine kick.

 

The downside of MDMA is that is depletes the serotonin stores, induces adrenal fatigue, and depletes dopamine and noradrenaline stores.

All of this is fine as long as you take 1 pill, once a month. But when you take additional pills and party every week another nasty thing happens.

Serotonin gets severely depleted, body responds in a way to preserve the lower 5htp levels by upregulating the 5ht1a AUTORECEPTORS. The autoreceptors are hypersensitive and lower pre-synaptic release of 5HT and the lower amount of 5ht1a receptors from the sustained levels of cortisol. As one can see, this feedback systeem is now completely out of balance and will not return to balance without taking the right nutrition, and supplements to restore function.

 

On the restoring effects of tryptophan, rhodiola rosea and ginkgo biloba.

tryptophan can increase stores of 5HT and in the long term can cause gradual downregulation of the somatodendritic 5ht1a autoreceptors, resulting in enhanced activation of anxiolytic 5ht1a post-synaptic receptors.

rhodiola rosea can restore levels of 5HT neurons in the hippocampus

gingo biloba is shown to reverse age related loss of 5ht1a receptors due to aging.

 

To induce a state of euphoria (by activating the innate stress response system) 5-htp can be used to bypass the regulation of 5HT release. 5-htp needs to hit the brain cells therefore pheripheral blocking of 'aromatic amino acid decarboxylase' AADC is necessary. This can be partially achieved with EGCG from green tea. Eventuall a pre-load with L-dopa for enhancement of dopamine release i also recommend.

 

On why this method has limted side effects.

5-htp and the 5HT that follows is from a spillover effect rather than the MDMA throw everything out thing. So the 5ht1a AUTORECEPTOR upregulation which is a bad thing is prevented.

when 5-htp together with carbidopa (AADC blocker) gets ingested the effects on cortisol last

100 mg 2-3 hours +/-200% cortisol from baseline

200 mg 3-5 hours +/-275% cortisol from baseline

300 mg 4-6 hours +/-350% cortisol from baseling

above 100 mg per dose can induce nausea, so i recommend 100 mg dosis taken 1-2 hours apart.

 

On why you can not use this trick every day.

5-htp activates the stress-response system, and puts your brain/body in a catecholamine overdrive (dopamine rise about 500% like cocaine...) and depletes stores. Also cortisol has destructive action on 5ht receptors in the hypothalamus.

 

Why the effects feel different than amphetamine.

Amphetamine mainly enhances dopamine release (1600% rise) and not so much a cortisol spike.

[Lobotomy]

Go directly to excitotoxicity, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[LDK]

Go directly to excitotoxicity, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I don't think so, levodopa in low doses are actually neuroprotective.

I'm sure sustained cortisol increase can be detrimental, that's why i only recommend max. once a week.

Edited by Lambiek de Kanter, 17 October 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[xEva]

In my experience, ecstasy is best taken over a baseline level of low selegiline, like 5 mg once a week -- not together, but separated, like say, selegiline always on Wed  and ecstasy, 2-3 times a month, on Sat (it just happened like this in my experience, unpremeditated and for no special reasons). Years later,  it turned out that  selegiline counteracted MDMA neurotoxicity. I did not know that, but once I tried ecstasy while being off selegiline for over a year and did not like the experience at all. It seemed too rough in comparison. ..for what it's worth..

 

[Major Legend]

Xeva I do not recommend the route you are going, it's not a bad idea but all these drugs are extremely powerful, when you used frequently they can really cause ireversible damage. L-Dopa is way more benign than Ecstasy and Selegiline. Do not underestimate selegiline as it kills completely kills Mao B and the body takes a long time to regenerate them.

 

All 3 drugs are not very well understood as they have "extreme" effects on multiple pathways. MDMA it a methamphetamine derivative, it is actually a lot more powerful than meth itself, which is why you never see anybody take MDMA frequently.

 

Its therapeutic effects are probably similiar to something like LSD, where once in a blue moon is highly beneficial for some, its only a guess though. I can be wrong

Edited by Major Legend, 18 October 2014 - 01:25 AM.

[FW900]

You're downplaying the downsides, and there are even worse downsides you did not look at. The worst downside of chronic MDMA use is severe oxidative stress of serotonergic neurons and possibly acute neurotoxicity. Once a week use will severely diminish 5-HT levels. You can't reverse oxidative stress and restore 5-HT levels by taking supplements after the fact.

 

Another downside: Do not forget the role serotonin plays with the heart. MDMA is a serotonin releasing agent. Frequent use of serotonin releasing agents is associated with pulmonary hypertension. Most MDMA users infrequently consume the drug, making it essentially a non-issue; weekly however will surely reap its penalty in future heart problems.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1573567/

 

The psychological downsides stemming from frequent MDMA use are severe. Many users of MDMA report a state similar to depression after the drug wears off and it persists for days. Weekly use of it, will increase tolerance, meaning the utility derived from taking it will decrease. You're trading a whole lot of depression and irritability for one day a week with ever decreasing returns? It simply is not worth it and this is exactly the reason why you don't see frequent MDMA users. This is going to lead to emotional instability, irritability, cravings, and long-lasting psychological problems.

 

Also, OP, you state 'ecstasy' in the title. I would assume you are taking ecstasy tablets rather than pure MDMA; your dosages are unknown, the content of it is unknown and you're putting yourself at an even greater risk. You might have a mixture of low quality MDA, MDMA, PMA, methamphetamine and god knows what else.

 

Your reasoning of how to sustain once-a-week MDMA is really just plain wrong and demonstrates a lack of understanding of overall neuroscience and the pharmacology of MDMA. 5-HT levels/reserves are severely diminished following MDMA use and take over a week to recover. You can't fix this by supplementing with some 5-htp and L-DOPA. Even more laughable you complain about 'upregulation' from 5-htp supplementation. You'll have severe downregulation of affected sertonergic receptors from weekly MDMA use, drastically offsetting potential upregulation. 5-HT levels will essentially be extremely low with chronic use and there is nothing you can do to combat this aside from taking MDMA less frequently.

 

You're worried about adrenal fatigue (what many call a pseudo condition that's non existent) in face of all these other issues? Wow.

 

This is one of the most reckless posts I have ever seen on Longecity and is in no way shape or form conducive to promoting brain health let alone life-extension.

 

 

Xeva I do not recommend the route you are going, it's not a bad idea but all these drugs are extremely powerful, when you used frequently they can really cause ireversible damage. L-Dopa is way more benign than Ecstasy and Selegiline. Do not underestimate selegiline as it kills completely kills Mao B and the body takes a long time to regenerate them.

 

All 3 drugs are not very well understood as they have "extreme" effects on multiple pathways. MDMA it a methamphetamine derivative, it is actually a lot more powerful than meth itself, which is why you never see anybody take MDMA frequently.

 

Its therapeutic effects are probably similiar to something like LSD, where once in a blue moon is highly beneficial for some, its only a guess though. I can be wrong

 

 

 

Major Legend, I disagree. Selegiline + MDMA is safer than L-DOPA + MDMA in terms of mitigating oxidative stress. See study below. The risks stems from whenever it inhibits MAO-A, which could possibly result in serotonin syndrome in conjunction with MDMA. Just because selegiline inhibits MAO-B does not mean anything bad, MAO-B is an enzyme that breaks down dopamine; you mention 'kills MAO-B' as though MAO-B is a receptor--- it is not.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7542394

 

You never see people taking MDMA frequently as it has diminishing returns and people do not want the frequent aforementioned state of depression and apathy that follows MDMA use. Low 5-HT levels fit the classical model of depression.

 

MDMA is not a derivative of methamphetamine; they are similar in that they are both phenylethylamines.

Edited by FW900, 18 October 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[LDK]

Hi again and thanks for the replies.

 

It seems I've got to make something clear here and something that is misunderstood by you guys. I never meant to take ecstasy once a week. The topic title may have been a little confusing.

First of all I am talking about a way to induce euphoria, by using only a mixture of natural plant extracts (so kinda safe in a way as all those substances are proven to be benificial for brain health):

 

Green Tea / Raw Cocoa for the EGCG and Aromatic Amino Acid Decarboxylase Inhibitor in the periphery. To let you all know, the pharmacokinetics

of this catechin reach a maximum value between 1,5 to 3,5 hours. This is step one. 3 grams of boiled green tea for rougly 20-40 minutes and taking on empty stomach is necessary for strong inhibition.

Also pure EGCG extract can be used but 200 mg should do the trick, it's even better absorbed with some black pepper powder.

 

L-Dopa / Mucuna pruriens: When you take this after the green tea, most of it will reach the brain, make sure you don't take past 150 mg for the first time, this is plenty.

 

5-HTP pure extract: Take 100-150 mg for the first experience, The thing is that depression / anxiety and especially neurotoxicity issues are out of the question because.

5-HTP increases cortisol which is the primary function of the euphoric experience as ALL neurotransmitters spill over!

The neurotransmitter stores for serotonin won't get depleted as MDMA remember it spills over, not thrown over like MDMA does. MDMA is a serotonin releaser.

The cortisol doens't reach 800% levels above baseline like MDMA, only 350% maximum. But the effect lasts quite some time and there is NO COMEDOWN. Only a gradual fading of the extreme uplift mood.

Catecholamine stores (dopamine/nor-epinephrine/epinephrine) will drop a little bit but the pre-load with L-Dopa will counteract this.

 

So as to say, over the last years when I was trying to fight my inbalanced system from a MDMA abusing history I came across this very interesing findings during my journey.

 

My success came from first restoring my brain with various supplements those include:

1. Melatonin (before sleep) and / or Sunflower seeds (during daytime)
2. Rhodiola Rosea (500 mg before sleep)
3. Green Tea + L-Dopa (upon waking, 150 mg L-Dopa)
4. Vitamin C (1000 mg before sleep)
5. Ginkgo Biloba (upon waking 120 mg)
6. Creatine ( 5 gr. before sleep)

7. Fish oil

8. Brewers yeast

9. Vitamin D

10. Moderate exercise

 

The MDMA experience in the past, 8 years ago as only inspired me to find a sustainable alternative. And this is my discovery after going though extensive research reading about loads of scientific papers during the past 7,5 years and testing on myself. So I invite you all to try this method some time on empty stomach

Enjoy

[LDK]

FW900, to reply on your post,

For what you are saying, everything is right. Ecstasy will seriously screw over brain health and it is indeed not possible to just replenish stores with L-Dopa and 5-HTP.

What most people do is just take 5-HTP to recover from MDMA use but that is not kinda the right fix. You are right that serotonin gets extremely depleted.

The things you say in your posts are the things I learned during my ecstasy use, 8 years ago, because at that time I was only taking St. John's wort, Rhodiola, 5-HTP but did not result in any much recovery.

Only stopping using the drug did help in some way but the damage was already done. Due to massive disregulation of the serotonin feedback loop.

 

This is something I wanna discuss because the way anti-depressants are claimed to work is via long term downregulation of 5ht1a somatodendritic autoreceptors over a period of 4-6 weeks.

MDMA does the opposite, it induces depression and anxiety because of the lower 5HT stores, and the feedback results in increase in number of those autoreceptors. And lower 5ht1a postsynaptic activation = anxiety.

Also why I think using MDMA is especially bad is because of the supraphysiological levels of cortisol. 800% is very damaging to the hippocampus and the body in general.

 

Anyway thanks for your reply!

[FW900]

It seems I've got to make something clear here and something that is misunderstood by you guys. I never meant to take ecstasy once a week. The topic title may have been a little confusing.

First of all I am talking about a way to induce euphoria, by using only a mixture of natural plant extracts (so kinda safe in a way as all those substances are proven to be benificial for brain health):

 

The MDMA experience in the past, 8 years ago as only inspired me to find a sustainable alternative. And this is my discovery after going though extensive research reading about loads of scientific papers during the past 7,5 years and testing on myself. So I invite you all to try this method some time on empty stomach

 

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying things. Based on the title and overall flow of your post, I really thought you were trying to find a way to sustain weekly MDMA use. I'm very glad that this is not the case!

 

 

Have you ever tried selegiline? The reason I recommend selegiline with L-DOPA, is because: without it, excess dopamine is broken down by MAO-B which forms DOPAC and other metabolites that have the potential to cause oxidative stress. Selegiline reduces oxidative stress and may even potentiate L-DOPA. I suggest you add it to this combination if you have not tried it.

 

 

EDIT: Since you were not talking about weekly ecstasy use, I take back what I said about your post/advice being reckless.

Edited by FW900, 18 October 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[LDK]

I have never tried it, I know about the destuctive potential of dopamine metabolites and dopamine-quinones on tryptophan hydroxylase and tyrosine hydroxylase, here is the study...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10461926

 

Anyway, no I have no seligilline, and I think it is only available as prescription medicin. I am really interested for the fact that it is neuroprotective.

Also, the L-dopa seems to be neuroprotective in a sense that it upregulates the endogeneus anti-oxidant enzymes in the brain like glutathione.

Also some people have tried phenylethylamine in conjunction with seligiline, but I have read that the breakdown of PEA is even more neurotoxic than is dopamine. So I don't wanna go THAT far into stimulation...

For the release of PEA I just go for some running and enjoy the runners high..

 

By the way, thanks again for your reply and everything is cool now I see your good intentions and this could be a very informational topic for everyone who's interested in the dangers of taking ecstasy.

And enjoying a more natural way to induce that state of bliss without using stimulants like MDMA or any other kind of amphetamines

[xEva]

Xeva I do not recommend the route you are going, it's not a bad idea but all these drugs are extremely powerful, when you used frequently they can really cause ireversible damage. ...

 

oh that was years ago, back when the raves were popular.

 

and btw,  I heard of 'black tuesdays' or 'suicidal tuesdays' or whatever those post party come downs were called, but never experienced them. Mine were 'i'm still flying tuesdays'. ..and yeah, at some point we ecstasized almost weekly, but that was just a crazy short period. 

 

 

@Lambiek de Kanter: like FW900, I too thought that with that regimen you were trying to mitigate weekly X use.  I'll give it a try, since I have not seen X in years. 

[Major Legend]

FW900, selegiline is not just a irreversible MAO B enzyme inhibitor, its effects are very complicated. I speak from my personal experience of trying literally hundred of different things (all of the 3 drugs mentioned included), selegiline is definetely not "benign". If you want to just go for that route use rasgiline. L-dopa is only really dangerous in the presence of a good COMT inhibitor, dose for dose wise its way easier to F* up the doses on selegiline and MDMA. Selegiline's purported neuroprotective features can be achieved with other methods, its also highly unlikely that a low dose use of selegiline can mitigate neurotoxity of something like MDMA in the long run.

 

As I said as the body takes a few weeks to regenerate MAO B enzymes its not exactly healthy to "destroy" enzymes that are supposed to control dopamine levels, this makes selegilines dosage really hard to control, in regards to its effect on dopamine. Also it has two isomers, one isomer, which is completely shitty and just causes crappy side effects

 

And yes thanks for correcting me about MDMA , however it doesn't change my original point about it not being a drug people should use frequently. I was trying to say that the strength of MDMA is not to be trifled with. People often don't think MDMA is as strong as Methamphetamine.

[LDK]

I wish people would try this method.

 

Today I did it again, with my girlfriend.

 

0:00 Started with 3 grams green tea. Boiled for 40 minutes. Taken on empty stomach together with some black pepper for bioavailabilty enhancement of EGCG and some sugar tot taste.

+0:30 minutes later added 200 mg L-Dopa.

+1:00 Took 300 mg 5-HTP.

+1:25 First effects noticed.. coming up smoothly

+1:40 Effects getting stronger but feelings really calm and focused

+2:00 Full effects.

+2:15 Ended up in bed with my girlfriend, we both had a really enjoyful lovemaking act... the 'point-of-no-return is easily managable making it much more fun but this is an effect of 5-htp i was already familiar with

+3:00 Feeling fine, no feelings of being worn out after sex feeling energetic but calm.

 

Really enjoyable experience and not feeling any sign of fatigue up until now, but feel just back to baseline which is also a nice place to be in for me

 

As a sidenote, 5-htp at this dose (300 mg) usually can accompany some heavy nausea, with the green-tea preload there it was completely abstinent.

Edited by Lambiek de Kanter, 20 October 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Ark]

As long as you won't mind the long term damage from the damage to the 5 HT receptor via clipping. I say go for it, if your purpose for posting is to get confirmation on your theory, well your just plan wrong. Btw I'm a libertarian, my post is just to open your eyes. If your set on mdma I suggest you do more research into magic mushrooms they might help negate some of the negative effects stacked with other noots.

[Ark]

The other problem with brain damage is trying to self diagnose. As you might not notice the difference in yourself as the mental decline usually comes gradually.

Edited by Ark, 20 October 2014 - 07:14 PM.

[LDK]

Easy dude, i'm here not here to get confirmation, just to make something popular as opposed to MDMA abuse as is the world we live in now. Anyway, it won't destroy neurons dude, it is just supplementing with 5-htp...

[88LS]

This combo sounds super interesting, thanks for posting Lambiek.

[Ark]

Easy dude, i'm here not here to get confirmation, just to make something popular as opposed to MDMA abuse as is the world we live in now. Anyway, it won't destroy neurons dude, it is just supplementing with 5-htp...

to each his own, haha.

[medievil]

I used to take xtc twice a week for a long time, over a long term period it induced a massive confidence increase and it was the key in overcoming my social issues.

 

The problem with it is receptor downregulation, st johns worth is known to reverse tolerance so it may prevent the short term side effects.

 

For me it induced severe brainzaps and fatigue in the week afterwards.

[Flex]

I have never tried it, I know about the destuctive potential of dopamine metabolites and dopamine-quinones on tryptophan hydroxylase and tyrosine hydroxylase, here is the study...

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10461926

 

Anyway, no I have no seligilline, and I think it is only available as prescription medicin. I am really interested for the fact that it is neuroprotective.

Also, the L-dopa seems to be neuroprotective in a sense that it upregulates the endogeneus anti-oxidant enzymes in the brain like glutathione.

Also some people have tried phenylethylamine in conjunction with seligiline, but I have read that the breakdown of PEA is even more neurotoxic than is dopamine. So I don't wanna go THAT far into stimulation...

For the release of PEA I just go for some running and enjoy the runners high..

 

By the way, thanks again for your reply and everything is cool now I see your good intentions and this could be a very informational topic for everyone who's interested in the dangers of taking ecstasy.

And enjoying a more natural way to induce that state of bliss without using stimulants like MDMA or any other kind of amphetamines

 

I would rather take the full-spectrum extract of Mucuna Pruriens because pure L-Dopa could cause Dyskinesias and is possibly neurotoxic

 

Neuroprotective and neurotoxic roles of levodopa (L-DOPA) in neurodegenerative disorders relating to Parkinson's disease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12373519

Neuroprotective effects of the antiparkinson drug Mucuna pruriens.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15478206

 

I guess at the end of the day if You use L-dpoa seldom, You wont expect any bad effects unless You´re using it on regular and for a long time-frame

Edited by Flex, 22 October 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[medievil]

First of all I am talking about a way to induce euphoria, by using only a mixture of natural plant extracts

 

A treshold dose of mescaline is natural and said to be like mdma, its not toxic.

[Godof Smallthings]

I tried this, although not 100% like you described it.

 

What I did:

3 grams of green tea in vigourously boiling water, let it steep for 30 minutes, then drank it. Then I added new boiling water and some more tea leaves.

I then took a Natrol Resveratrol Diet for more EGCG, and swilled it with some more tea.

Sipped on the second tea for 30 minutes until finished.

Took 1 Now Foods DOPA mucuna.

30 minutes later, I took 200 mg 5-HTP

35-40 minutes later, I noticed blurred vision, head pressure and sweating.

1 hour later I was feeling severe unease and nausea. Had to go lie down.

After a while I fell asleep. Slept for over one hour.

When I woke up, I had an immense craving for milk (I virtually never drink milk). Finished two large glasses and then had something to eat. Felt better, but depleted.

 

So in essence, that really did not seem to work for me. At all.

[LDK]

I tried this, although not 100% like you described it.

 

What I did:

3 grams of green tea in vigourously boiling water, let it steep for 30 minutes, then drank it. Then I added new boiling water and some more tea leaves.

I then took a Natrol Resveratrol Diet for more EGCG, and swilled it with some more tea.

Sipped on the second tea for 30 minutes until finished.

Took 1 Now Foods DOPA mucuna.

30 minutes later, I took 200 mg 5-HTP

35-40 minutes later, I noticed blurred vision, head pressure and sweating.

1 hour later I was feeling severe unease and nausea. Had to go lie down.

After a while I fell asleep. Slept for over one hour.

When I woke up, I had an immense craving for milk (I virtually never drink milk). Finished two large glasses and then had something to eat. Felt better, but depleted.

 

So in essence, that really did not seem to work for me. At all.

Alright let me help you get through this.

Some things to consider, I know, the experience you had sound familiar to what happened to me in the past.

 

First of all, the symptoms you experienced are from peripheral OD on serotonin.

To prevent this from happening several steps have to be taken.

 

1. EGCG from green tea should be taken on empty stomach, also adding 500 mg black pepper will boost bioavailability and prevent excretion and prolong half life in the blood.

It seems that you can load on EGCG for some days because the AADC inhibition is likely to be an irreversible inhibitor. Study suggests it: "On the basis of the properties of the EGCG-inactivated enzyme, it can be suggested that inactivation could be ascribed to a covalent modification of not yet identified residue(s) of the active site of Ddc."

 

2. Do not take high dose multivitamins with high doses of vitamin B6. They speed up the reaction 5HTP > 5HT. Instead take some brewers yeast which has vitamin b6 in appropriate doses.

 

3. Be careful with MAO Inhibitors, it seems that this nausea effect can be potentiated by it, as with my experiences with Rhodiola Rosea in combination. It will let the peripheral serotonin stay in the blood for longer, preventing the breakdown.

When high enough levels of either dopamine or serotonin reach the chemoreceptor trigger zone (CTZ) located in the cerebellum, you get nausea and it will completely block any euphoria.

It seems that resveratrol has some MAO inhibiting properties like quercetin and kaempferol. So leave that one out for the next try.

 

4. Dopa Mucuna Now Foods, it seems that 1 pill contains 120 mg L-Dopa and total is 800 mg. I am not sure if there are any MAOI's in the natural extract, I am using pure L-Dopa powder/crystals. Also I have had mucuna pruriens powder

in the past, i had too cook it or i would get bad reaction to the histamine, my throat was all triggered and could hardly swallow. But that was from the powder, no capsules..

 

What I suggest is you try leaving out the EGCG from the Resveratrol, make sure you did not take any high dose vitamin b6 supplements, try everything on empty stomach.

Also, try 2 pills Dopa Mucuna and use only 100 mg 5-htp next time. Remember euphoria will come from Dopamine, not especially serotonin, but the activation of the stress response system by cortisol (from CNS serotonin) will enhance dopamine release 500%. So eventually you don't need to go higher than 100 mg 5-htp to trigger the dopamine kick. Just make sure you have enough dopamine in stores from the Dopa Mucuna.

[TheBatman]

Go directly to excitotoxicity, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

 

I literally sprayed Dr. Pepper all over myself upon reading your post. 

[Mescalito]

Thank you for the excellent information Lambiek!  My story is very similar to yours, and I have also ended up on a similar regimen, taking green tea with mucuna pruriens, however only recently have I begun seriously including 5-htp into the mix.  Do you feel the 5-htp in the doses you take prevents side effects from developing from the L-dopa? 

 

I ask because I have taken L-Dopa daily before, for quite some time, and when mixed with green tea, and I think the real culprit here is caffeine, that side effects develop that could be seen as similar to cases of amphetamine abuse; namely anxiety, mild psychosis, de-motivation, dyskenesia, etc.  My research does lead me to believe that 5-htp can negate some of these side effects, however I am yet to begin such a vigorous regimen again.

 

Do you have any experience taking your combination consecutively, and have you ever experienced any side effects from your use?

 

Kind regards,

 

Mescalito

[LDK]

Hi Mescalito, thanks for your reply on the topic.

 

It has been some time since i started the topic, but as you may expect i keep on researching and testing. Things i found lately have been very helpfull in understanding what exactly goes on during the process of taking the various supplements in sequence.

Let me first state and for everyone to note is very important.

5-HTP directly activates a stress response when used at daytime. This is ALWAYS unhealthy for long term use and can never be used as a supplement at daytime for health effects.

For recreational use, it can deliver a more healthy high compared to the most popular serotonin releaser MDMA.

 

As I am a biologist, I connected some dots related to anxiety/stress/depression. and the other side of the medal, feeling connected/stress resistant/euphoric any time of the day.

The hormones involved are testosterone and cortisol.

Whenever an organism experiences stress either induced through environment / psychological  or physical overload / fear / 5-HTP / MDMA. your body releases cortisol,

this cortisol response shuts down the testosterone axis and vice versa. When you are devoid of stress for longer periods of time with enough rest and nutrition your testosterone levels skyrocket,

you will feel alpha male and you will feel natural high as dopamine levels rise further and further compared to an amphetamine / cocaine high.

 

So dopamine levels and dopamine receptor binding are linked to confidence and alpha male characteristics, makes sense right. As the most healthy of the group should be the natural leader.

Now how i implemented the following knowledge into my regimen.

 

First thing in the morning

3 grams green tea crushed... made to powder... and boiled water on it to sit for some minutes.

Add some black pepper for enhancement of EGCG and honey for the taste and enhancement of bioavailabiliy as well.

After 1 hour, take 500 mg L-Dopa. Maximum I tested was 700-800 mgs some days ago. No nausea nothing, just feeling great, full of energy

 

Now 5-HTP CAN be taken as well at this time to trigger a stress response releasing more dopamine and converting some to noradrenaline and releasing adrenaline.

 

Rhodiola Rosea can reduce sweaty hands and the high as it dampens the stress response, when taking rhodiola rosea for a longer time it definitely does, I am not sure for single time use.

The are some reports of Rhodiola Rosea removing conditioned place preference to morphine so that says a lot!

 

Now to get back to how to reduce the anxiety, first you need proper levels of dopamine to achieve this you need a balanced stress response. When it is out of whack, you will never feel confident.

How to repair a broken stress response system.

 

Take 5-htp only sublingually at 20-50 mg doses and when melatonin levels are somewhat maxed out, for 5-HT2A antagonism. This is really important otherwise 5-HTP will induce cortisol release in the evening and prevent recovery and ability to fall asleep.

How to make sure melatonin levels are up?

Reduce the blue light in screens in the evening, as they will prevent the pineal gland from secreting melatonin. I feel this is a serious unknown health problem nowadays.

Make sure you eat sunflower seeds during daytime, for your body to make melatonin it needs vitamin b6, vitamine b5 and vitamin C also zinc and magnesium and tryptophan. all of these are included in the sunflower seed.

Tryptohan will not trigger cortisol release, instead it lowers cortisol. As opposed to 5-HTP which has the ability to bypass the tryptophan hydroxylase enzyme and this increase serotonin release.

 

When 5-htp is taken before sleep, it will enhance slow wave sleep (deep sleep) and REM-sleep stages which help you recover from stress. This means the stress response system will calm down and this allows for dopamine levels to build up.

The higher the dopamine levels and the better the receptor binding, the better you will feel.

So for a long term approach this is the goal.

How to further increase dopamine receptor binding:

Increase omega 3 fatty acids from DHA or flaxseed, but DHA probably does a better job in reaching the brain.

Get enough melatonin to downregulate 5-HT2A receptors

And make sure you are not addicted by taking rhodiola rosea regularly. Rhodiola Rosea removes addictions by long term use by reducing the rewarding effects of drugs for aquisition and the withdrawal effects that follow during abstinence.

There are studies on Rhodiola for quitting cigarette smoking and morphine addictions.

 

And by the way, personally i would never go over 700-800 L-dopa just to be safe.

Also whenever L-Dopa gets periphery converted to dopamine you will get nausea or eventually noradrenaline release which also induces cortisol release.

Sustained cortisol release is the worst thing to happen to your health and confidence.

 

Some other things you may try, which has helped for me. Taking sunflower seeds daily. About 50 grams a day is perfect. And St. john's wort standarized on hyperforin (LI 160 extract).

 

Enjoy

 

[HappyShoe]

I tried this, although not 100% like you described it.

 

What I did:

3 grams of green tea in vigourously boiling water, let it steep for 30 minutes, then drank it. Then I added new boiling water and some more tea leaves.

I then took a Natrol Resveratrol Diet for more EGCG, and swilled it with some more tea.

Sipped on the second tea for 30 minutes until finished.

Took 1 Now Foods DOPA mucuna.

30 minutes later, I took 200 mg 5-HTP

35-40 minutes later, I noticed blurred vision, head pressure and sweating.

1 hour later I was feeling severe unease and nausea. Had to go lie down.

After a while I fell asleep. Slept for over one hour.

When I woke up, I had an immense craving for milk (I virtually never drink milk). Finished two large glasses and then had something to eat. Felt better, but depleted.

 

So in essence, that really did not seem to work for me. At all.

 

Boiling water destroys many of the compounds in tea, especially boiling it for that long. Water should be hot, not boiling, and only steeped for 3-5 minutes max.
 

[Mescalito]

Thank you for the lengthy & detailed response!  I find it amazing that you can take upwards of 800 mg of L-Dopa with 3 grams green tea, I assume this is all done on an empty stomach, yes?  Even amounts of L-Dopa as low as 120 mg when combined with 3-4 grams of green tea cause me excessive stimulation.  I will have near manic energy for about 6 hours total, often followed by a crash.  Would not a dose of L-Dopa at such an amount cause even more excessive stimulation, or is something else going on here?  A buffering of the caffeine + L-Dopa induced mania by heightened dopamine levels?

[LDK]

Green tea must be taken on empty stomach in the morning.

Reason for this is that the EGCG is the molecule responsible for the inhibition of aromatic amino acid decarboxylase in the peripheral nervous system, the enzyme that converts L-Dopa into dopamine.

This is what you need for the effects of L-Dopa inside the brain!! Whenever you take green tea at different times in day, when your stomach is not completely empty, the EGCG won't reach blood concentrations necessary for inhibition. So, first thing in the morning. Green tea powdered + 500 mgs black pepper (prolongs EGCG stability for blood levels and bioavailability) + sugar (better bioavailability) + vitamin C (bioavailability / stability of EGCG) + NOTHING ELSE.

 

Wait 45 minutes / 1 hour. Add 500 or more L-Dopa.

Today I will test with 700 mgs again

 

The reason for your excessive stimulation from 120 mgs L-Dopa comes from peripheral conversion to dopamine which in turn releases noradrenaline from it's stores resulting in activation of adrenoceptors and release of cortisol as well.

When you succeed in inhibition in peripheral nervous system, L-Dopa only makes it's way into the brain and actually calms you down, releases growth hormone and just improves your mental abilities and hormone system.