10 replies to this topic

[NomadWind]

Hi guys, so I am new to nootropics (did one month intensive beginner research from scratch and discovered a lot). I discovered Phenylpiracetam - looks to be amazing and powerful and I really want to try it, but then read (from wiki) "In rats, it has been found to decrease the number of nACh and NMDA receptors and increase the density of D1, D2 and D3 receptors." and from another site "Another US review of the literature suggests the same, stating “However, injection of this drug (100 mg/kg, intraperitoneally) to rats increases the numbers of both nACh and NMDA receptors, but decreases serotonin and dopamine receptors in the brain tissue” .

This might be a bad, beginner question but I would really, more than anything appreciate a straight and detailed answer - 1) Is this decrease in receptors permanent or do these receptors again increase in number when one stops Phenypiracetam. 2) What does a decrease in receptors mean? Will it affect you negatively in a psychological way - like make you into a zombie (like the drugs for depression and ocd do, for example)? 3) I would think that a decrease in serotonin and dopamine (pleasure chemical) receptors would be a bad thing, isn't it - like make you more dull, make you experience less pleasure in life and more depressed (less serotonin from less serotonin receptors? Or have I got it wrong). If it decreases serotonin and dopamine receptors then how can this compound be released to the public and be prescribed by Russian doctors, even to Russian cosmonauts (for increased performance) - I mean am I missing something here?

I would like EACH question to be answered and please dont leave any element of my questions out. I realize after observation that many such questions by new users are not answered here, but unlike them I will NOT give up until I get the answers, as this is very, very important to me and is the first step in my nootropic journey. Thanks a lot in advance

 

Edited by NomadWind, 19 October 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[jly1986]

Do some research into the concept of receptor down regulation, which will help you gain clarity on all your above questions.

[NomadWind]

Thanks for the input, I will do the research, but I could still miss out on the questions I have, so can so can someone please answer them directly? I am pressed on time, and direct answers to these questions will greatly help me. Thanks so much, I appreciate it! i really hope someone can give me DIRECT answers to these questions, please....

Edited by NomadWind, 19 October 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[GoingPrimal]

Briefly 

 

1. Yes and No. Receptors do grow back, at a much slower rate than it takes to "burn them out", so to speak. But if you do enough damage, I don't think the same amount grow back, or they are as sensitive - someone feel free to correct me here.

 

2. It means you've somehow managed to overstimulate said receptors and they have withdrawn, as the body is always looking to maintain homeostasis. Yes, it will cause a psychological effect if you do enough damage - the cocaine junky ruins his dopamine receptors and then becomes moody and depressed during withdrawal. Or overuse of GABAergics (benzos and the like) cause down-regulation of GABA receptors and the person becomes on edge or downright panicky.

 

3. Down-regulation of dopamine and serotonin receptors is usually not desired, yes. Other than the study you listed I haven't come across anything saying that phenylpiractem down-regulates dopamine or serotonin receptors, in fact much discussion is on these boards about using phenylp to UP-regulate dopamine receptors.

 

Do more research on the compound, both on studies and here. Obviously take both with a grain of salt.

[NomadWind]

Thanks a lot for the reply, exactly the sort of answer I was looking for. After reading this I'm not so sure I will be trying Phenylpiracetam - as after a while I might get permanent damage in a sense that my receptors change which can leave lasting impact in terms of how I experience life, the pleasure I get from it, how happy I am, my mood etc. I am surprised, very much so, that others who are researching this substance have not asked the same question or that they dont seem to be concerned about this. Even if it is just one study it already opens up many doors, which don't look good and bashed the possibility that this is safe to take. If anyone has more to add to GoingPrimal answer then please do. This is a similar setback to 1) reports on Noopept causes short term memory loss in, 2) how Idra 21 cant be taken with glutamate (of which wheat has a high amount of) as it causes hippocampal cell death, 3) similar to the thing where you apparently must not combine stimulatns (e.g: caffeine) with sunifiram as it apparently can cause lasting consequences, similar to 4) how nefiracetam can pose anger to the testes, similar to 5) how salbutiamine changes receptors as well http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10996447 (Sulbutiamine, Reduces Dopamine output, Increases D1 receptor from use, lower DAT, and similar to how dangerours nootropic pyritinol apparently may be (even normal vitamin B6 in RDA quantities can cause permanent nerve damage  - (from wiki)  "Recently, a growing number of consumer reports indicate B₆ can cause severe toxicity and permanent disability, even at RDI levels." - so imagine what pyritinol can do which is much more powerful and crosses the brain barrier easily). My point is that many of the so called powerful nootropics do not look safe

Edited by NomadWind, 19 October 2014 - 07:55 PM.

[Gorthaur]

Thanks a lot for the reply, exactly the sort of answer I was looking for. After reading this I'm not so sure I will be trying Phenylpiracetam - as after a while I might get permanent damage in a sense that my receptors change which can leave lasting impact in terms of how I experience life, the pleasure I get from it, how happy I am, my mood etc. I am surprised, very much so, that others who are researching this substance have not asked the same question or that they dont seem to be concerned about this. Even if it is just one study it already opens up many doors, which don't look good and bashed the possibility that this is safe to take. If anyone has more to add to GoingPrimal answer then please do. This is a similar setback to 1) reports on Noopept causes short term memory loss in, 2) how Idra 21 cant be taken with glutamate (of which wheat has a high amount of) as it causes hippocampal cell death, 3) similar to the thing where you apparently must not combine stimulatns (e.g: caffeine) with sunifiram as it apparently can cause lasting consequences, similar to 4) how nefiracetam can pose anger to the testes, similar to 5) how salbutiamine changes receptors as well http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10996447 (Sulbutiamine, Reduces Dopamine output, Increases D1 receptor from use, lower DAT, and similar to how dangerours nootropic pyritinol apparently may be (even normal vitamin B6 in RDA quantities can cause permanent nerve damage  - (from wiki)  "Recently, a growing number of consumer reports indicate B₆ can cause severe toxicity and permanent disability, even at RDI levels." - so imagine what pyritinol can do which is much more powerful and crosses the brain barrier easily). My point is that many of the so called powerful nootropics do not look safe

 

You really need to look closer at these studies before jumping to conclusions. The study you referenced used 100 mg/kg doses of phenylpiracetam. That is 40 times the recommended maximum dosage for humans, given repeatedly. You cannot use this data to conclude that phenylpiracetam will give you permanent receptor damage, it just doesn't follow. If you followed the same protocol with caffeine, and gave people 40 times the safe dosage (16 grams of caffeine) at once, you would conclude that caffeine is fatal. 

[GoingPrimal]

Well said Gorthaur.

[Ark]

I think your underestimating the human brain and over estimating noots effect.

[NomadWind]

Ok thanks

Edited by NomadWind, 20 October 2014 - 08:03 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

[YoungSchizo]

NomadWind, you almost downregulated my GABA receptors there. 

 

*Damn edit option, now I look like an asshole of a person for posting a "oh god why" picture  *