45 replies to this topic

[VICREP]

Overview

 

Ok I'll try make this as short as possible. I have severe anhedonia both for seeking rewards and from receiving pleasure when goals are accomplished. This, I'm assuming, ties into my complete lack of sexual desire, poor sexual performance, etc. Additionally, I have cognitive issues with memory, attention, etc. Lastly, I also have some low grade, susceptibility to pain (Fibromyalgia type symptoms?) Additionally I have some Social Phobia that preceded the above problems by about 12 months, but has worsened. 

 

This developed over the course of the last 2.5 years (I'm 23) and has so far been somewhat resistant to treatment. Right now I'm taking Rx'd Dextroamphetamine 2-4 days per week just to get me functioning semi-normally. I realize this is a band-aid approach and will stop treatment with Dex in the next week or two when I'm done studying for the year.

 

 

Potential causes

 

Prolonged Stress

• I went through a heavy bout of depression about 2 years ago, that no doubt left me with some neurological damage. I am not in a saddened state anymore necessarily, but I'm stuck in a state of emotional flatness. 
• My thinking is this could have someone led to atrophy of my Hippocampus, or some other stress induced neurological change.
• Some AD's have been tried. Will discuss shortly.

Drug Abuse/Misuse

• I have experimented with a variety of drugs recreationally and medicinally. None really in "excess" but definitely irresponsible use
• Some of the drugs I used that coincided with developemnt of my current state include: Methamphetamine, Oxycodone, MDMA, Dextroamphetamine (therapautic and above doses), DXM, Marijuana, Psychedelics (these actually helped me out of the darkness at times, even after the drug wore off)
• Again, I must reiterate that I wasn't addicted to any of these drugs and never went on bendors, but definitely may have damaged my reward pathways. I have also been through periods of sustained abstinence from all these drugs with little relief from symptoms

Treatments Tried

 

Tianeptine

• Positives: Improved anhedonia to an extent, mood improved greatly, instant pleasure, increased sociability, slightly increase libido, eradicated anxiety (remained somewhat after cessation)
• Negatives: Laziness, addictive, rebound depression upon withdrawal (Mu agonist)

Bupropion

• Positives: More energy and motivation (not significantly)
• Negatives: Anxiety at times, dry mouth, memory concerns (anticholinergic)

Deprenyl (selegiline)

• Positives: Some improvement in anhedonia, more sociable, slightly improved libido
• Negatives: Lethargy, too many interactions, possible withdrawal symptoms (MAO-B upregulation?)

 

5htp

• Positives: Less prone to worrying about my problems
• Negatives: Worsens anhedonia and libido

Dextroamphetamine

• Positives: Increased motivation, reduces anhedonia, improves cognition, improves sociability
• Negatives: Tolerance to most benefits, Increases anhedonia overtime, can overflow stimulation into anxiety, hair loss, withdrawal symptoms, neurological impairments long-term

Memantine

• Increase Generalised anxiety, ruined sleep, ruined cognition

Choline (ALCAR, CDP Choline, Alpha GPC)

• Induces depression, destroys motivation

Piracetam

• Positives: Improved anhedonia in some aspects, pleasure obtained from music
• Negatives: Sometimes increased social anxiety, made libido worse at times as well

 

Note: There are a range of other things i have tried that probably aren't even worth mentioning.

 

 

Where to from here?

 

Well I think I have damaged my reward pathways through dopaminergic, and opioid drug misuse, especially during times of chronic stress. From my own reading and research I'm beginning to believe I may have upregulated Kappa Opiod receptors in the mesolimbic system (VTA, NAcc) due to my weird acquired fear response in social situations that began sometime around my abuse of oxycodone and recreational amphetamine use. Add this with the down-regulation of DA recpetors in the same reward pathways and I believe I might be in the right vicinity.

 

I'm not interested in taking drugs that will further impair this system in the long-term. That is another reason I wouldn't be willing to give conventional treatments, like Bupropion an extended trial. I believe I'm probably far beyond most conventional treatments if I want sustained remission, and thus I have come up with a couple possible treatment avenues.

 

Naltrexone 

• Should help repair damage done in the reward pathways in relation to opioid receptors, and DA receptors to a lesser extent. Has research backing it's ability to improve sexual function in males.
• I'm concerned over how long treatment must be sustained for though. Anyone with any idea how long LDN (Low Dose Naltrexone) therapy must be used for to gain long-term benefits upon cessation?
• Ordered some the today and will update after trial.

Ibogaine

• I live in Australia and have been in contact with an experienced Ibogaine treatment physician(?)
• Work on a similar hypothesis as my LDN approach, except in a more acute, spiritual sense I guess.
• Would be financially intrusive for myself though

Agomelantine

• I'm actually surprise this drug hasn't got more attention on these boards. I haven't tried it myself but am very intrigued by what I have read.
• Anecdotally, improves libido, and the literature claims it's an effective AD, acting on DA in some parts of the mesolimbic system, without directly manipulating dopamine (5ht2c antagonism), thus could theoretically be absent of downregulating this system further.
• Prohibitively expensive though. 

 

Any help or advice would be appreciated. I'm probably leaving out parts, but as is my current state, typing this post alone has left me drained.

 

Thanks guys

[Galaxyshock]

I think you have a right hunch about the damage done. Dynorpin through kappa-opioid can basically shut down the nucleus accumbens by inhibiting glutamatergic neurotransmission in the area. NAc appears to be the anticipation (reward, punishment) center.

 

Agomelatine actually has some evidence being helpful for anhedonia, but I think the studies were in depressed patients. I've read that tolerance developes also to the opioid rebound effect from naltrexone, but I don't know about long-term benefits of LDN. Ibogaine seems to be a radical "reset" for opioid system while doing the trip from 5-ht2a agonism and dissociation through nmda-antagonism. Heavy stuff, it could heal or make things worse...

 

St. John's Wort was partially helpful in reversing my anhedonia. It definitely brought back "simple pleasures".

SJW upregulates 5-HT2A and affects the mesolimbic region: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12595953

It also contains amentoflavone that is kappa-antagonist, although most likely a weak one.

 

Jiaogulan has restorative effect at dopaminergic system that is impaired from chronic stress for example. It could be helpful.

 

Good news is also that anhedonia can reverse on its own, but tends to take frustratingly long time. Feel free to join my anhedonia forum.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 24 October 2014 - 06:03 AM.

[drg]

Seems silly to not try some standard antidepressants and welbutrin is not one I'd suggest.

 

Try any SSRI 

Anhedonia + hyposexuality are both depression related. It doesn't matter if you believe they are related to drug use because that it is just an assumption and you shouldn't limited your options based on that.

-------------------------
 

I would try to stick with the more standard treatment of mental illnesses until you have exhausted all those options.

 

--------------------------

 

Then you have plenty of off label things to try.

Taking testosterone would help both your problems too. NSI189 would be great. Pramipexole. There is so much really. 

 

[NeuroNootropic]

Since you seem to respond to dopaminergics you could try Cordyceps, Maca, or Jiaogulan.

[mindpatch]

Seems silly to not try some standard antidepressants and welbutrin is not one I'd suggest.

 

Try any SSRI 

Anhedonia + hyposexuality are both depression related. It doesn't matter if you believe they are related to drug use because that it is just an assumption and you shouldn't limited your options based on that.

-------------------------
 

I would try to stick with the more standard treatment of mental illnesses until you have exhausted all those options.

 

--------------------------

 

Then you have plenty of off label things to try.

Taking testosterone would help both your problems too. NSI189 would be great. Pramipexole. There is so much really. 

Anhedonia and hyposexuality are both side effects of SSRIs.  An SSRI would be the last thing I'd try in this case.  

 

If you have both anhedonia and hyposexuality and suspect DA dysfunction, there's some blood work that would helpful.  Check your testosterone and estradiol levels and also check your prolactin levels.  High prolactin inhibits libido, and prolactin levels are inversely proportional to dopamine levels.  If it's high, it could an indicator that your DA levels are low.  And it is counterintuitive, but low estrogen in men negatively effects libido as well.  I also wish I had been checking my cortisol levels when I went into this anhedonia/low libido/high anxiety spiral a couple of years ago.  I suspect that lots of physical stress from lots of endurance training while suddenly stopping testosterone treatment, in addition to long-term SSRI use for a personality type that is naturally low DA caused a crash for me. A check of my cortisol levels could have provided some insight into this.  I don't know about AUS, but here in The States I order blood tests online from privatemdlabs.com.  You don't need a doctor's note, and the tests are less expensive.

 

I've been trying NSI 189 for a couple of months.  The immediate effect was anxiety, so you have to be careful with dosing, but I've noticed that my libido is back, the best it's been in years, and I'm starting to get my cognition back.  I also was taking Uridine with fish oil, and I think that helped as well.  You mentioned sensitivity to choline, so you could bypass the traditional uridine/choline/fish oil Happy Stack and stick with uridine and fish oil and folate. I'm fascinated by the possibilities of this stuff as well, but want to see more user feedback.   I'm also exercising some willpower with my newfound libido and am not giving in to masturbating to orgasm.   

 

Behaviors and changing habits are a big part of the reset process as well, and that's something that is not really discussed here on this magic potion forum.  Even though the motivation is not really there because there's no innate sense of reward or pleasure, develop a new and positive habit.  Go to the gym and develop a workout routine, or try to learn a new hobby.  Get out in different social situations.  Look for novelty.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[platypus]

Exercise should help both mood and libido. Do some cardio, lift heavy weights, lose possible belly-fat to balance your hormones better. 

[medievil]

Amphetamine for anhedonia and luvox for sexual issues work for me.

[drg]

Anhedonia and hyposexuality are both side effects of SSRIs.  An SSRI would be the last thing I'd try in this case.  

 

Anhedonia and hypoesexuality are both caused by depression too. And not everyone experiences those side effects. It comes down to individual experience and if does get those side effects he can try somethign else. They could even be counter intuitively fixed by treating the depression.

[VICREP]

@drg

I really doubt an SSRI would help. They are well known for inducing anhedonia and sexual side effects. Additionally I'm not 'depressed', it's more if a flat mood induced by my lack of pleasure seeking.

I have tried DA agonist as well. Roprinole and Pramipexole. Good for libido, nothing else. Not interested in the direct agonism of DA receptors either. Sounds like trouble to me long term.

Also I know exercise, a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle issues are not an issue here. I'm relatively athletic, although this has lessened since my anhedonia has grown. I'm still in relatively good shape.

Got a blood test done the other day for sex hormones, thyroid function, etc. Will update when I get my results.

[VICREP]

Update:

 

Still waiting on the Naltrexone to arrive.

 

Been using Tianeptine, and dextroamphetamine to get me by in the mean through time.

 

Just something I have noticed. When I take the dex, even at the beginning or after a holiday, I never find it euphoric in the raw sense. It makes me more introverted most of the time. However, Tianeptine is not as motivating or energising but it makes me a lot more social and eliminates all negative thought, improves libido, and reduces a lot of the anhedonia. This further seems to suggest my problems my be a mixture of dysfunction between my dopamine and opioid rewards pathways.

 

Initially I thought most of my problems stemmed from anticipatory anhedonia, although I see now that consummatory anhedonia may play a pivotal role.

 

I never get excited or cheerful when I finish a task, or win something. It's like I'm never pleased, but I'm also not motivated to set goals, chase rewards, etc.

 

 

[nowayout]

Amphetamine for anhedonia and luvox for sexual issues work for me.

 

That's really interesting, since reading the side effect profile of Luvox, one would have expected the opposite to be the case.  I guess everyone is different. 
 

[Area-1255]

Seems silly to not try some standard antidepressants and welbutrin is not one I'd suggest.

 

Try any SSRI 

Anhedonia + hyposexuality are both depression related. It doesn't matter if you believe they are related to drug use because that it is just an assumption and you shouldn't limited your options based on that.

-------------------------
 

I would try to stick with the more standard treatment of mental illnesses until you have exhausted all those options.

 

--------------------------

 

Then you have plenty of off label things to try.

Taking testosterone would help both your problems too. NSI189 would be great. Pramipexole. There is so much really. 

Please do not post if you did not read OP's history and concerns, and indeed it seems like you haven't really looked over it - or you don't know what you are talking about....

We don't want to make OP's situation worse, and SSRI's - will certainly make it worse...these are known for CAUSING or WORSENING anhedonia, hyposexuality and even anxiety in the first place....plus they downregulate serotonin receptors after just a few weeks of use!

 

OP - you are spot on in terms of considering naltrexone... Your lengthy opiate use probably also caused a prolactin increase...so I would get that checked...tianeptine is fine for upregulating dopamine receptors itself - but it also acts as, you said, a selective opioid AGONIST...which might just cause more issues related to the reward circuitry, depending on what the most significant factor even was in the first place.

 

NAc (nucleus accumbens) and striatum...well, some above poster said glutamate is very important here...that is true!

Glutamate is needed to channel dopamine and carry metabolic rate, and for utilization of sugars and glucose..however..too much can do the opposite..since memantine (an NMDA-glutamate antagonist and AcHe inhibitor) caused your symptoms to get worse... I would think either..

 

A.) Your glutamate levels are already shot from the heavy use of past drugs. NMDA's are needed for neurosteroid and GABA release, and are crucial to testosterone production.

2.) You have an acetylcholine excess which is initiating, worsening or amplifying / compounding your dopamine deficiency. 

3.) You already have high glutamate and the additional NMDA blockade is not doing anything of benefit because glutamate is simply shifting to more toxic receptors (and given the efflux) like kainate and AMPA.

 

 

One way to tell this would be by judging how racetam's affect you.

 

One thing that helped me with anhedonia a while back..not just naltrexone but also the combination of cordyceps , and muira puama as well as catuaba! These three are amazing at hitting multiple pathways...catuaba is dopamine reuptake inhbitor..cordyceps is an MAO-B inhibitor and muira puama acts as a d1 agonist and beta agonist....you could also switch catuaba out for flowering quince which has no other actions EXCEPT dopamine reuptake inhibition (whereas catuaba may also affect serotonin to an extent and presumably a little norepinephrine boost due to that or separate effects on phospholipases).

 

 

 

 

IN SUMMARY  OP (VICREP) - MY SUGGESTIONS

 

-LDN (low dose naltrexone)          (helps relieve anhedonia and opiate antagonism also removes serotonin from the hypothalamus and NAc) (study)

-Catuaba or flowering quince ((DATI)) dopamine reuptake inhibitors (catuaba study) (flowering quince study)

-Muira Puama ( dopamine d1 agonist and beta agonist..would help raise glutamate mildly too) (muira puama study)

-Requip, pramipexole, or cabergoline as dopamine d2 family agonists. (dopamine agonist study on anhedonia)

Edited by Area-1255, 29 October 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[drg]

Please do not post when you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL.

 

If you could tell me for a fact that an SSRI would worsen his situation I'd call you a liar.

 

Anhedonia is a symptom of DEPRESSION, and if you mention it to any doctor the first thing they will think of is depression. So trying a first line treatment of DEPRESSION seem rather logical to me.

 

Hell it doesn't even need to be an SSRI but OP should try a first line depression treatment. Welbutrin and tianeptine are not first line treatments. OP has tried many meds but not the common ones.

 

 

--

The only other cause of anhedonia which would be obvious to me would be ADHD? Well most of OP's attempts at treatment have been down this line so it seems unlikely treating ADHD will help.

 

Please don't insult me when I am just trying to help and give my experience with the subject.

Please do not post if you did not read OP's history and concerns, and indeed it seems like you haven't really looked over it - or you don't know what you are talking about....

We don't want to make OP's situation worse, and SSRI's - will certainly make it worse...these are known for CAUSING or WORSENING anhedonia, hyposexuality and even anxiety in the first place....plus they downregulate serotonin receptors after just a few weeks of use!

 

Edited by drg, 29 October 2014 - 11:53 PM.

[Area-1255]

 

Please do not post when you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL.

 

If you could tell me for a fact that an SSRI would worsen his situation I'd call you a liar.

 

Anhedonia is a symptom of DEPRESSION, and if you mention it to any doctor the first thing they will think of is depression. So trying a first line treatment of DEPRESSION seem rather logical to me.

 

Hell it doesn't even need to be an SSRI but OP should try a first line depression treatment. Welbutrin and tianeptine are not first line treatments. OP has tried many meds but not the common ones.

 

 

--

The only other cause of anhedonia which would be obvious to me would be ADHD? Well most of OP's attempts at treatment have been down this line so it seems unlikely treating ADHD will help.

 

Please don't insult me when I am just trying to help and give my experience with the subject.

Please do not post if you did not read OP's history and concerns, and indeed it seems like you haven't really looked over it - or you don't know what you are talking about....

We don't want to make OP's situation worse, and SSRI's - will certainly make it worse...these are known for CAUSING or WORSENING anhedonia, hyposexuality and even anxiety in the first place....plus they downregulate serotonin receptors after just a few weeks of use!

 

Typing in all caps makes you sound real smart, eh?

Lmao.

 

Serotonin is oppository...to dopamine, so regardless of his state of mind or depression...it's going to worsen things..unless you have a copy of his blood work on desk that sais his dopamine levels are fine ?

 

>.......Which of course you don't, so therefore your ad hominem idiocy is going to be completely disregarded ...

 

OP Is trying to get help, trying to suggest emotionally blunting chemical changes makes you look like an idiot. So just save yourself the time and navigate away from this thread until you have something more helpful to say.

[drg]

I am just trying to help him, not to have some pin brained crack pot blogger like yourself argue with me. When I go out of my way to reply to him. VICREP chose to disagree with me. You chose to insult me.

 

SSRIs are "emotionally blunting chemical changes"? They are standard treatment for depression fool.

"Serotonin is oppository to dopamine"? wtf are you saying, who says he needs dopamine? are you checking his blood work?

 

 

Please do not post when you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL.

 

If you could tell me for a fact that an SSRI would worsen his situation I'd call you a liar.

 

Anhedonia is a symptom of DEPRESSION, and if you mention it to any doctor the first thing they will think of is depression. So trying a first line treatment of DEPRESSION seem rather logical to me.

 

Hell it doesn't even need to be an SSRI but OP should try a first line depression treatment. Welbutrin and tianeptine are not first line treatments. OP has tried many meds but not the common ones.

 

 

--

The only other cause of anhedonia which would be obvious to me would be ADHD? Well most of OP's attempts at treatment have been down this line so it seems unlikely treating ADHD will help.

 

Please don't insult me when I am just trying to help and give my experience with the subject.

Please do not post if you did not read OP's history and concerns, and indeed it seems like you haven't really looked over it - or you don't know what you are talking about....

We don't want to make OP's situation worse, and SSRI's - will certainly make it worse...these are known for CAUSING or WORSENING anhedonia, hyposexuality and even anxiety in the first place....plus they downregulate serotonin receptors after just a few weeks of use!

 

Typing in all caps makes you sound real smart, eh?

Lmao.

 

Serotonin is oppository...to dopamine, so regardless of his state of mind or depression...it's going to worsen things..unless you have a copy of his blood work on desk that sais his dopamine levels are fine ?

 

>.......Which of course you don't, so therefore your ad hominem idiocy is going to be completely disregarded ...

 

OP Is trying to get help, trying to suggest emotionally blunting chemical changes makes you look like an idiot. So just save yourself the time and navigate away from this thread until you have something more helpful to say.

 

 

Edited by drg, 30 October 2014 - 01:34 AM.

[Gorthaur]

My experience with naltrexone, in both high and low doses, is that it greatly exacerbates depression, anxiety, hyposexuality, and anhedonia. While you are taking it, you will feel terrible, but when you stop taking it, and you get a rebound effect with your endorphins, you will feel amazing. I was unable to take it more than a couple months due to it causing insomnia. Also keep in mind that naltrexone will totally block the effects of tianeptine. 

 

Given your history of extensive drug use, it's likely that you have developed permanent adaptations in your reward system. Naltrexone will not fix these. Ibogaine is a better choice. Better still would be to concentrate on neurogenesis, which would mean regular cardio exercise, lots of NSI-189, and a BDNF increaser like SEMAX. It would also be a good idea to get some genetic testing done, such as with 23andme, so that you can supplement based on scientific evidence instead of personal reflection. 

[Area-1255]

My experience with naltrexone, in both high and low doses, is that it greatly exacerbates depression, anxiety, hyposexuality, and anhedonia. While you are taking it, you will feel terrible, but when you stop taking it, and you get a rebound effect with your endorphins, you will feel amazing. I was unable to take it more than a couple months due to it causing insomnia. Also keep in mind that naltrexone will totally block the effects of tianeptine. 

 

Given your history of extensive drug use, it's likely that you have developed permanent adaptations in your reward system. Naltrexone will not fix these. Ibogaine is a better choice. Better still would be to concentrate on neurogenesis, which would mean regular cardio exercise, lots of NSI-189, and a BDNF increaser like SEMAX. It would also be a good idea to get some genetic testing done, such as with 23andme, so that you can supplement based on scientific evidence instead of personal reflection. 

It depends on where your testosterone levels are at, 99% of the time - most psychological/psychiatric issues stem from a hormone imbalance...for example, on naltrexone alone , you have a point - particularly during night time, I would get very depressed and almost in despair on it...however..upon adding an anti-estrogen / anti - cort agent...most of these effects of nalt went away...I am convinced that high androgen levels are the ultimate augmentation strategy to anything you take...they also help your body adapt to stressors..and since naltrexone is known for also improving some aspects of stress response...particularly in relieving stress induced anhedonia and such...one may find benefit in it. As some others have mentioned though - the nucleus accumbens is particularly important when anhedonia/dysphoria is present.....and nalt will actually aid this pathway..but if your hormones are amiss or messed up - then nalt may be of less benefit. 

 

I am convinced that the benefit of naltrexone would also lie with disinhibition of GABA , DOPAMINE, oxytocin, nitric oxide etc....everything opioids attempt to reduce would be increased...also nalt should lower prolactin...which may raise estro in itself..which explains why taking an anti estrogen had leveled it out and alleviated the side effects; any time you lower prolactin you may raise both test and estro....

Edited by Area-1255, 30 October 2014 - 02:16 AM.

[Area-1255]

 

I am just trying to help him, not to have some pin brained crack pot blogger like yourself argue with me. When I go out of my way to reply to him. VICREP chose to disagree with me. You chose to insult me.

 

SSRIs are "emotionally blunting chemical changes"? They are standard treatment for depression fool.

"Serotonin is oppository to dopamine"? wtf are you saying, who says he needs dopamine? are you checking his blood work?

 

 

Please do not post when you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL.

 

If you could tell me for a fact that an SSRI would worsen his situation I'd call you a liar.

 

Anhedonia is a symptom of DEPRESSION, and if you mention it to any doctor the first thing they will think of is depression. So trying a first line treatment of DEPRESSION seem rather logical to me.

 

Hell it doesn't even need to be an SSRI but OP should try a first line depression treatment. Welbutrin and tianeptine are not first line treatments. OP has tried many meds but not the common ones.

 

 

--

The only other cause of anhedonia which would be obvious to me would be ADHD? Well most of OP's attempts at treatment have been down this line so it seems unlikely treating ADHD will help.

 

Please don't insult me when I am just trying to help and give my experience with the subject.

Please do not post if you did not read OP's history and concerns, and indeed it seems like you haven't really looked over it - or you don't know what you are talking about....

We don't want to make OP's situation worse, and SSRI's - will certainly make it worse...these are known for CAUSING or WORSENING anhedonia, hyposexuality and even anxiety in the first place....plus they downregulate serotonin receptors after just a few weeks of use!

 

Typing in all caps makes you sound real smart, eh?

Lmao.

 

Serotonin is oppository...to dopamine, so regardless of his state of mind or depression...it's going to worsen things..unless you have a copy of his blood work on desk that sais his dopamine levels are fine ?

 

>.......Which of course you don't, so therefore your ad hominem idiocy is going to be completely disregarded ...

 

OP Is trying to get help, trying to suggest emotionally blunting chemical changes makes you look like an idiot. So just save yourself the time and navigate away from this thread until you have something more helpful to say.

 

 

Funny, I have 8 years of official experience and then 10 additional years of experimentation and self study to hold over your head..nice try.  

[drg]

Thanks for the downvotes. You have some interesting opinions for a professional Area 1123151.

[Gorthaur]

 

My experience with naltrexone, in both high and low doses, is that it greatly exacerbates depression, anxiety, hyposexuality, and anhedonia. While you are taking it, you will feel terrible, but when you stop taking it, and you get a rebound effect with your endorphins, you will feel amazing. I was unable to take it more than a couple months due to it causing insomnia. Also keep in mind that naltrexone will totally block the effects of tianeptine. 

 

Given your history of extensive drug use, it's likely that you have developed permanent adaptations in your reward system. Naltrexone will not fix these. Ibogaine is a better choice. Better still would be to concentrate on neurogenesis, which would mean regular cardio exercise, lots of NSI-189, and a BDNF increaser like SEMAX. It would also be a good idea to get some genetic testing done, such as with 23andme, so that you can supplement based on scientific evidence instead of personal reflection. 

It depends on where your testosterone levels are at, 99% of the time - most psychological/psychiatric issues stem from a hormone imbalance...for example, on naltrexone alone , you have a point - particularly during night time, I would get very depressed and almost in despair on it...however..upon adding an anti-estrogen / anti - cort agent...most of these effects of nalt went away...I am convinced that high androgen levels are the ultimate augmentation strategy to anything you take...they also help your body adapt to stressors..and since naltrexone is known for also improving some aspects of stress response...particularly in relieving stress induced anhedonia and such...one may find benefit in it. As some others have mentioned though - the nucleus accumbens is particularly important when anhedonia/dysphoria is present.....and nalt will actually aid this pathway..but if your hormones are amiss or messed up - then nalt may be of less benefit. 

 

I am convinced that the benefit of naltrexone would also lie with disinhibition of GABA , DOPAMINE, oxytocin, nitric oxide etc....everything opioids attempt to reduce would be increased...also nalt should lower prolactin...which may raise estro in itself..which explains why taking an anti estrogen had leveled it out and alleviated the side effects; any time you lower prolactin you may raise both test and estro....

 

 

I have used a powerful testosterone booster (tongkat ali) both on and off naltrexone. Tongkat ali always helps my mood, but it does not counteract the side effects of naltrexone by any means. In addition, maintaining unnaturally high androgen levels virtually guarantees that you will develop an enlarged prostate and male pattern baldness. I already have high DHT, so raising my testosterone further pushed those side effects to unacceptable levels. Hormones like testosterone have no direct effect on mood, they just work by enhancing dopaminergic transmission. 

[Area-1255]

 

 

My experience with naltrexone, in both high and low doses, is that it greatly exacerbates depression, anxiety, hyposexuality, and anhedonia. While you are taking it, you will feel terrible, but when you stop taking it, and you get a rebound effect with your endorphins, you will feel amazing. I was unable to take it more than a couple months due to it causing insomnia. Also keep in mind that naltrexone will totally block the effects of tianeptine. 

 

Given your history of extensive drug use, it's likely that you have developed permanent adaptations in your reward system. Naltrexone will not fix these. Ibogaine is a better choice. Better still would be to concentrate on neurogenesis, which would mean regular cardio exercise, lots of NSI-189, and a BDNF increaser like SEMAX. It would also be a good idea to get some genetic testing done, such as with 23andme, so that you can supplement based on scientific evidence instead of personal reflection. 

It depends on where your testosterone levels are at, 99% of the time - most psychological/psychiatric issues stem from a hormone imbalance...for example, on naltrexone alone , you have a point - particularly during night time, I would get very depressed and almost in despair on it...however..upon adding an anti-estrogen / anti - cort agent...most of these effects of nalt went away...I am convinced that high androgen levels are the ultimate augmentation strategy to anything you take...they also help your body adapt to stressors..and since naltrexone is known for also improving some aspects of stress response...particularly in relieving stress induced anhedonia and such...one may find benefit in it. As some others have mentioned though - the nucleus accumbens is particularly important when anhedonia/dysphoria is present.....and nalt will actually aid this pathway..but if your hormones are amiss or messed up - then nalt may be of less benefit. 

 

I am convinced that the benefit of naltrexone would also lie with disinhibition of GABA , DOPAMINE, oxytocin, nitric oxide etc....everything opioids attempt to reduce would be increased...also nalt should lower prolactin...which may raise estro in itself..which explains why taking an anti estrogen had leveled it out and alleviated the side effects; any time you lower prolactin you may raise both test and estro....

 

 

I have used a powerful testosterone booster (tongkat ali) both on and off naltrexone. Tongkat ali always helps my mood, but it does not counteract the side effects of naltrexone by any means. In addition, maintaining unnaturally high androgen levels virtually guarantees that you will develop an enlarged prostate and male pattern baldness. I already have high DHT, so raising my testosterone further pushed those side effects to unacceptable levels. Hormones like testosterone have no direct effect on mood, they just work by enhancing dopaminergic transmission. 

 

This is likely one of the most unintelligent and ill informed, generalized statements I've ever heard.

Maybe you just aren't educated on the matter..but first.

1.) It's not that simple, and tongkat ali doesn't have much of an effect on estrogen and progesterone - which are opiate modulators.

2.) Net androgen activity and responsivity also correlates with genetics.

3.) Enlarged prostate is related to estrogen, several studies show that dihydrotestosterone treatments can reduce prostate enlargement.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are still consuming propaganda like maple syrup. 

4.) MPB  , though has some relevance to androgens..it has more to do with 5-alpha reductase localization and genetics.

5.)Testosterone and androgens do NOT just affect dopamine..in fact, androgens like DHT have little to no effect on dopamine...

DHT however may raise epinephrine and alter adrenaline receptor expression, and it may actually decrease dopamine turnover..but not directly alter the serum or whole level. Then again it may allow for more dopamine interactions by it's modulation of hippocampal plasticity and calcium nerve terminals....

6.)Free T that converts into estrogen, when in the proper ratio with androgens..upregulates multiple dopamine and serotonin subtypes, inhibits PDE AND MAO's..and affects many other pathways including nitric oxide, glutamate etc, histamine h1 mRNA..all that.

7.) DHT modulates opiate receptor bioavailability and may enhance the effects of naltrexone by re routing beta endorphin to more acceptable and less harmful receptors.

 

Do some reading, check out these articles..you'll learn a lot!

 

http://area1255.blog...how-of-dht.html

http://well.blogs.ny...-exercise/?_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4000546

Edited by Area-1255, 31 October 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[drg]

Watch out big shot blogger here to insult everyone and sling his own garbage opinions in peoples faces.

 

I have used a powerful testosterone booster (tongkat ali) both on and off naltrexone. Tongkat ali always helps my mood, but it does not counteract the side effects of naltrexone by any means. In addition, maintaining unnaturally high androgen levels virtually guarantees that you will develop an enlarged prostate and male pattern baldness. I already have high DHT, so raising my testosterone further pushed those side effects to unacceptable levels. Hormones like testosterone have no direct effect on mood, they just work by enhancing dopaminergic transmission. 

 

This is likely one of the most unintelligent and ill informed, generalized statements I've ever heard.

Maybe you just aren't educated on the matter..but first.

1.) It's not that simple, and tongkat ali doesn't have much of an effect on estrogen and progesterone - which are opiate modulators.

2.) Net androgen activity and responsivity also correlates with genetics.

3.) Enlarged prostate is related to estrogen, several studies show that dihydrotestosterone treatments can reduce prostate enlargement.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are still consuming propaganda like maple syrup. 

4.) MPB  , though has some relevance to androgens..it has more to do with 5-alpha reductase localization and genetics.

5.)Testosterone and androgens do NOT just affect dopamine..in fact, androgens like DHT have little to no effect on dopamine...

DHT however may raise epinephrine and alter adrenaline receptor expression, and it may actually decrease dopamine turnover..but not directly alter the serum or whole level. Then again it may allow for more dopamine interactions by it's modulation of hippocampal plasticity and calcium nerve terminals....

6.)Free T that converts into estrogen, when in the proper ratio with androgens..upregulates multiple dopamine and serotonin subtypes, inhibits PDE AND MAO's..and affects many other pathways including nitric oxide, glutamate etc, histamine h1 mRNA..all that.

7.) DHT modulates opiate receptor bioavailability and may enhance the effects of naltrexone by re routing beta endorphin to more acceptable and less harmful receptors.

 

Do some reading, check out these articles..you'll learn a lot!

 

http://area1255.blog...how-of-dht.html

http://well.blogs.ny...-exercise/?_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4000546

 

 

[Area-1255]

 

Watch out big shot blogger here to insult everyone and sling his own garbage opinions in peoples faces.

 

I have used a powerful testosterone booster (tongkat ali) both on and off naltrexone. Tongkat ali always helps my mood, but it does not counteract the side effects of naltrexone by any means. In addition, maintaining unnaturally high androgen levels virtually guarantees that you will develop an enlarged prostate and male pattern baldness. I already have high DHT, so raising my testosterone further pushed those side effects to unacceptable levels. Hormones like testosterone have no direct effect on mood, they just work by enhancing dopaminergic transmission. 

 

This is likely one of the most unintelligent and ill informed, generalized statements I've ever heard.

Maybe you just aren't educated on the matter..but first.

1.) It's not that simple, and tongkat ali doesn't have much of an effect on estrogen and progesterone - which are opiate modulators.

2.) Net androgen activity and responsivity also correlates with genetics.

3.) Enlarged prostate is related to estrogen, several studies show that dihydrotestosterone treatments can reduce prostate enlargement.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are still consuming propaganda like maple syrup. 

4.) MPB  , though has some relevance to androgens..it has more to do with 5-alpha reductase localization and genetics.

5.)Testosterone and androgens do NOT just affect dopamine..in fact, androgens like DHT have little to no effect on dopamine...

DHT however may raise epinephrine and alter adrenaline receptor expression, and it may actually decrease dopamine turnover..but not directly alter the serum or whole level. Then again it may allow for more dopamine interactions by it's modulation of hippocampal plasticity and calcium nerve terminals....

6.)Free T that converts into estrogen, when in the proper ratio with androgens..upregulates multiple dopamine and serotonin subtypes, inhibits PDE AND MAO's..and affects many other pathways including nitric oxide, glutamate etc, histamine h1 mRNA..all that.

7.) DHT modulates opiate receptor bioavailability and may enhance the effects of naltrexone by re routing beta endorphin to more acceptable and less harmful receptors.

 

Do some reading, check out these articles..you'll learn a lot!

 

http://area1255.blog...how-of-dht.html

http://well.blogs.ny...-exercise/?_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4000546

 

 

I can sense your jealousy from here, and it stinks bad. No wonder why nobody agrees with you. look at you though! Gettin all them downreps and your opinion being bashed from every angle...you must feel like a real king. Lmao.

Moreover, it seems like you are signing on just to deliberately quote my posts and respond in this beautiful fashion you have so humbly presented.

Also, thanks for the threats via PM, I appreciate that.

Edited by Area-1255, 31 October 2014 - 06:51 PM.

[drg]

I never PM'd you. Nor threatened you.

 

I don't care if people disagree with me I am just sharing my opinion on the matter of the treatment of a complex symptom. 

Edited by drg, 31 October 2014 - 06:57 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

drg and Area-1255, you both come off like huge a**holes in this thread, attacking each other more than you contribute.  I'm surprised moderators haven't come down hard on both of you.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 31 October 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[mindpatch]

 

 

Watch out big shot blogger here to insult everyone and sling his own garbage opinions in peoples faces.

 

I have used a powerful testosterone booster (tongkat ali) both on and off naltrexone. Tongkat ali always helps my mood, but it does not counteract the side effects of naltrexone by any means. In addition, maintaining unnaturally high androgen levels virtually guarantees that you will develop an enlarged prostate and male pattern baldness. I already have high DHT, so raising my testosterone further pushed those side effects to unacceptable levels. Hormones like testosterone have no direct effect on mood, they just work by enhancing dopaminergic transmission. 

 

This is likely one of the most unintelligent and ill informed, generalized statements I've ever heard.

Maybe you just aren't educated on the matter..but first.

1.) It's not that simple, and tongkat ali doesn't have much of an effect on estrogen and progesterone - which are opiate modulators.

2.) Net androgen activity and responsivity also correlates with genetics.

3.) Enlarged prostate is related to estrogen, several studies show that dihydrotestosterone treatments can reduce prostate enlargement.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are still consuming propaganda like maple syrup. 

4.) MPB  , though has some relevance to androgens..it has more to do with 5-alpha reductase localization and genetics.

5.)Testosterone and androgens do NOT just affect dopamine..in fact, androgens like DHT have little to no effect on dopamine...

DHT however may raise epinephrine and alter adrenaline receptor expression, and it may actually decrease dopamine turnover..but not directly alter the serum or whole level. Then again it may allow for more dopamine interactions by it's modulation of hippocampal plasticity and calcium nerve terminals....

6.)Free T that converts into estrogen, when in the proper ratio with androgens..upregulates multiple dopamine and serotonin subtypes, inhibits PDE AND MAO's..and affects many other pathways including nitric oxide, glutamate etc, histamine h1 mRNA..all that.

7.) DHT modulates opiate receptor bioavailability and may enhance the effects of naltrexone by re routing beta endorphin to more acceptable and less harmful receptors.

 

Do some reading, check out these articles..you'll learn a lot!

 

http://area1255.blog...how-of-dht.html

http://well.blogs.ny...-exercise/?_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4000546

 

 

I can sense your jealousy from here, and it stinks bad. No wonder why nobody agrees with you. look at you though! Gettin all them downreps and your opinion being bashed from every angle...you must feel like a real king. Lmao.

Moreover, it seems like you are signing on just to deliberately quote my posts and respond in this beautiful fashion you have so humbly presented.

Also, thanks for the threats via PM, I appreciate that.

 

What threats?  Do share?  Inquiring minds want to know.  .. 

[mindpatch]

drg and Area-1255, you both come off like huge a**holes in this thread, attacking each other more than you contribute.  I'm surprised moderators haven't come down hard on both of you.

Pretty much.  Though sometimes it can be an entertaining diversion to witness foolish people make fools of themselves. 

[mindpatch]

 

Please do not post when you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL.

 

If you could tell me for a fact that an SSRI would worsen his situation I'd call you a liar.

 

Anhedonia is a symptom of DEPRESSION, and if you mention it to any doctor the first thing they will think of is depression. So trying a first line treatment of DEPRESSION seem rather logical to me.

 

Hell it doesn't even need to be an SSRI but OP should try a first line depression treatment. Welbutrin and tianeptine are not first line treatments. OP has tried many meds but not the common ones.

 

 

--

The only other cause of anhedonia which would be obvious to me would be ADHD? Well most of OP's attempts at treatment have been down this line so it seems unlikely treating ADHD will help.

 

Please don't insult me when I am just trying to help and give my experience with the subject.

Please do not post if you did not read OP's history and concerns, and indeed it seems like you haven't really looked over it - or you don't know what you are talking about....

We don't want to make OP's situation worse, and SSRI's - will certainly make it worse...these are known for CAUSING or WORSENING anhedonia, hyposexuality and even anxiety in the first place....plus they downregulate serotonin receptors after just a few weeks of use!

 

I understand you're trying to help the OP, but I think you oversimplify his particular predicament to fit inside your own simplistic box.  Firstly, he didn't mention that he was depressed.  In fact, he specifically stated he was not "depressed," but suffered from anhedonia and low libido.  Yes, those two symptoms are often associated with depression, but they are also indicated in other neurochemical dysfunctions as well.  The problem as I see it is that you subscribe to an impossibly broad and all encompassing definition of depression, as if it's this monolithic disease which, if treated, will solve all.  There are many ways we can and should look at depression, and it has a myriad of types, sub-types and different causes.  There are those who respond well to traditional SSRIs who probably have a very specific type of serotonergic based depression.  Conversely, there are those with low energy depression, combined with ADHD symptoms for whom an SSRI and it's subsequent possible downregulation of dopamine would make those symptoms worse.  Over 60% of SSRI users report sexual dysfunction, and emotional blunting and anhedonia are common characteristics of SSRIs.  

 

 Really, I think the scientific community still has a ways to go to really understand the impossibly complex and interrelated mechanisms that contribute to the galaxy of symptoms that we collectively refer to as "depression."   Understanding them in greater detail will allow us to tailor a treatment protocol that targets the specific root causes and not just ...."oh, you're tired?  You must be depressed.  Here!  Take these SSRIs!"  Trust me, I've been there.  

[mindpatch]

 

My experience with naltrexone, in both high and low doses, is that it greatly exacerbates depression, anxiety, hyposexuality, and anhedonia. While you are taking it, you will feel terrible, but when you stop taking it, and you get a rebound effect with your endorphins, you will feel amazing. I was unable to take it more than a couple months due to it causing insomnia. Also keep in mind that naltrexone will totally block the effects of tianeptine. 

 

Given your history of extensive drug use, it's likely that you have developed permanent adaptations in your reward system. Naltrexone will not fix these. Ibogaine is a better choice. Better still would be to concentrate on neurogenesis, which would mean regular cardio exercise, lots of NSI-189, and a BDNF increaser like SEMAX. It would also be a good idea to get some genetic testing done, such as with 23andme, so that you can supplement based on scientific evidence instead of personal reflection. 

It depends on where your testosterone levels are at, 99% of the time - most psychological/psychiatric issues stem from a hormone imbalance...for example, on naltrexone alone , you have a point - particularly during night time, I would get very depressed and almost in despair on it...however..upon adding an anti-estrogen / anti - cort agent...most of these effects of nalt went away...I am convinced that high androgen levels are the ultimate augmentation strategy to anything you take...they also help your body adapt to stressors..and since naltrexone is known for also improving some aspects of stress response...particularly in relieving stress induced anhedonia and such...one may find benefit in it. As some others have mentioned though - the nucleus accumbens is particularly important when anhedonia/dysphoria is present.....and nalt will actually aid this pathway..but if your hormones are amiss or messed up - then nalt may be of less benefit. 

 

I am convinced that the benefit of naltrexone would also lie with disinhibition of GABA , DOPAMINE, oxytocin, nitric oxide etc....everything opioids attempt to reduce would be increased...also nalt should lower prolactin...which may raise estro in itself..which explains why taking an anti estrogen had leveled it out and alleviated the side effects; any time you lower prolactin you may raise both test and estro....

 

I'm with Gorthaur on this.  I reset of his reward pathways and drugs that emphasize neurogenesis seems like a better way to go.  He's not detoxing off heroin for gawdssakes, and a treatment that makes a person "very depressed and almost in despair" doesn't sound smart. 

[Area-1255]

 

 

My experience with naltrexone, in both high and low doses, is that it greatly exacerbates depression, anxiety, hyposexuality, and anhedonia. While you are taking it, you will feel terrible, but when you stop taking it, and you get a rebound effect with your endorphins, you will feel amazing. I was unable to take it more than a couple months due to it causing insomnia. Also keep in mind that naltrexone will totally block the effects of tianeptine. 

 

Given your history of extensive drug use, it's likely that you have developed permanent adaptations in your reward system. Naltrexone will not fix these. Ibogaine is a better choice. Better still would be to concentrate on neurogenesis, which would mean regular cardio exercise, lots of NSI-189, and a BDNF increaser like SEMAX. It would also be a good idea to get some genetic testing done, such as with 23andme, so that you can supplement based on scientific evidence instead of personal reflection. 

It depends on where your testosterone levels are at, 99% of the time - most psychological/psychiatric issues stem from a hormone imbalance...for example, on naltrexone alone , you have a point - particularly during night time, I would get very depressed and almost in despair on it...however..upon adding an anti-estrogen / anti - cort agent...most of these effects of nalt went away...I am convinced that high androgen levels are the ultimate augmentation strategy to anything you take...they also help your body adapt to stressors..and since naltrexone is known for also improving some aspects of stress response...particularly in relieving stress induced anhedonia and such...one may find benefit in it. As some others have mentioned though - the nucleus accumbens is particularly important when anhedonia/dysphoria is present.....and nalt will actually aid this pathway..but if your hormones are amiss or messed up - then nalt may be of less benefit. 

 

I am convinced that the benefit of naltrexone would also lie with disinhibition of GABA , DOPAMINE, oxytocin, nitric oxide etc....everything opioids attempt to reduce would be increased...also nalt should lower prolactin...which may raise estro in itself..which explains why taking an anti estrogen had leveled it out and alleviated the side effects; any time you lower prolactin you may raise both test and estro....

 

I'm with Gorthaur on this.  I reset of his reward pathways and drugs that emphasize neurogenesis seems like a better way to go.  He's not detoxing off heroin for gawdssakes, and a treatment that makes a person "very depressed and almost in despair" doesn't sound smart. 

 

That's not the point, you are picking apart statements out of context..I stated that THEORETICALLY , Nalt could help the libido/hyposexuality mainly because of (as studies have provided) - opiates act as central regulators of serotonin function in the hypothalamus...where you don't want serotonin..therefore by decreasing ENDOGENOUS opiates; that means NATURALLY PRODUCED, and specifically their binding to the anti-sexual kappa and u -opioid receptors (beta-endorphin,dynorphiin, etc) - you are limiting and reversing these same hyposexual effects. By antagonizing opiate receptors, it doesn't matter if you are on opiates or not..the endogenous opioids themselves can cause gonadotropic and sexual dysfunction themselves.

 

Refer to this thread and the studies I quoted in it for more information --> http://www.longecity...sfunction-pssd/

 

You will then clearly see what I was getting at here. 

Ane being that OP stated anhedonia and hyposexuality; this is clearly something that can be caused by both excess endorphins and / or low dopamine....and what are the main chemicals that lead to EXCESS endogenous opiates?

Serotonin and adrenaline, my friend. 

That's why with very few exceptions, these two neurotransmitters are always anti sexual...and those exceptions are in exceptionally rare cases, ironically.

Adrenaline has a role in contractile output; including orgasm . 

Serotonin is largely inhibitory but may promote bonding through oxytocin modulation if it is in the NORMAL or ACCEPTABLE range for that person.