39 replies to this topic

[eon]

http://en.wikipedia....ulsive_disorder

 

"In the early 1910s, Sigmund Freud attributed obsessive–compulsive behavior to unconscious conflicts that manifest as symptoms.[78] Freud describes the clinical history of a typical case of "touching phobia" as starting in early childhood, when the person has a strong desire to touch an item. In response, the person develops an "external prohibition" against this type of touching. However, this "prohibition does not succeed in abolishing" the desire to touch; all it can do is repress the desire and "force it into the unconscious".

 

My decent into OCD:

 

When I was a kid I had a desire to touch "something", I believe this quote is exactly on point but maybe I misinterpreted it. So Freud attributed OCD as something like if you want to touch something but that something does not want to be touched? Is that about right? I remember as a kid, I would grab and touch random cats/stray cats, I would get scratched and bitten by them of course (the rejection), but they're so cute that I still end up having this "desire" to touch them. Of course I kept getting rejected by the cats. I think I remember reading that cats can cause a person to be mentally ill? I forgot where I read that but it has something to do with their coats? Ever seen a crazy cat lady, makes you wonder how they became that way. Cats to blame?

 

I later hated having my stuff "touched", stuff such as CD collection, etc. Some kind of karma, cats hate to be touched but I touched them, so then later on I hated my stuff touched. Till it developed to hating things being "out of place" (the OCD). In my teens is when it became a time consuming ritual, I just had to have things in a certain way.

 

"μ-Opioids, such as hydrocodone and tramadol, may improve OCD symptoms.[89] Administration of opiate treatment may be contraindicated in individuals concurrently taking CYP2D6 inhibitors such as fluoxetine and paroxetine."

 

Does Percocet fall under this category as well or not? Is it a different type of opioid. I am willing to try it to see if it clears up my OCD as an experiment.

Edited by eon, 02 November 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[AOLministrator]

Well ... yes pretty much anything similar to heroin in effect will help against pretty much any mental disorder. Schizophrenia: cured, depression: cured, anxiety: cured. You know the drill.

[blood]

Don't use percocet for your ocd.

The paracetamol in the percocet will destroy your liver, if you take too much (which you almost certainly will).

[eon]

wow, everyone got -1, what's up with that? This is a legitimate topic. Percocet is helpful to those suffering from pains. It's not meant to be abused just like everything else.

[StevesPetRat]

Toxoplasmosis is the cat-borne disease you are thinking of. It is remotely possible that this could contribute to OCD, as even in latent form the parasitic cysts secrete dopamine. This in turn may lower serotonin, which I believe is implicated in many cases of OCD.

[eon]

so high dopamine lowers serotonin and is one of the possible culprit behind OCD?

[AOLministrator]

so high dopamine lowers serotonin and is one of the possible culprit behind OCD?

 

No. Increasing/decreasing single neurotransmitters doesn't cause any mental disorders. All it can do is cause certain and rather physical than mental defects (like seizures, apathy/fatigue/spasms/agitation/tremors and such).

[StevesPetRat]

so high dopamine lowers serotonin and is one of the possible culprit behind OCD?

 

I should have been more precise; low serotonin tends to exacerbate the symptoms of OCD.

 

Edit: Anyway, toxo is more strongly implicated in schizophrenia; there may be something to the "crazy cat lady" stereotype

Edited by StevesPetRat, 05 November 2014 - 03:26 AM.

[eon]

but high serotonin leads to serotonin syndrome?

 

"OCD has been linked to abnormalities with the neurotransmitter serotonin, although it could be either a cause or an effect of these abnormalities. Serotonin is thought to have a role in regulating anxiety." Wiki

 

Does this mean taking a drug or supplement that works on the serotonin mean it could help with OCD? I've tried the Zoloft and 5htp routes, not sure that worked. I will get to other things regarding drugs and supplements that affect serotonin (serotonergic) at the bottom.

 

Considering too much dopamine is linked with schizophrenia, what could too much serotonin be link with? Considering the Zoloft I took then is an SSRI but didn't work, what does that tell me? Did I have too much serotonin and needed an antagonist instead and not an SSRI!? But which type of antagonist? Propanolol came to mind. But what I don't get is why I was given something that wouldn't work like a Zoloft. I looked at the profile of Propanolol and as if it's what I had been looking for all my life! 

 

But since I have a fondness for herbs as well, 2 came to my attention being a serotonin antagonist: 

 

- Feverfew Is an herb traditionally used for migraines. 

 

This is synonymous with Chrysanthemum, which I have seen in tea form in the stores. Not sure if type of breed matters but Chrysanthemum is chrysanthemum to me.

 

- Reserpine- depletes serotonin stores in the brain, heart, and many other organs and has been used in hypertension and psychoses.

 

I like this one's profile. Look it up. It's natural. I found 1 product on amazon containing this as an ingredient. I have to do more research before I purchase.

 

Although I liked my use of magic mushrooms, which is a serotonin receptor agonist, I'm curious if too much serotonin is linked to OCD? Possibly?

 

"Rapid onset of OCD in children and adolescents may be caused by a syndrome conntected to Group A streptococcal infections (PANDAS)[44][45] or caused by immunologic reactions to other pathogens (PANS)."

 

http://en.wikipedia....ulsive_disorder

 

Does this mean OCD can be caused by a virus?

 

"Penicillin antibiotics were among the first drugs to be effective against many previously serious diseases, such as bacterial infections caused by staphylococci and streptococci." Wiki

 

Does this mean an antibiotic could cure OCD?

 

I have a feeling my OCD was caused by psychological and not biological causes unless my serotonin receptor has a defect.

 

Differential diagnosis:

 

"OCD is often confused with the separate condition obsessive–compulsive personality disorder (OCPD). OCD is egodystonic, meaning that the disorder is incompatible with the sufferer's self-concept.[54][55] Because ego dystonic disorders go against a person's self-concept, they tend to cause much distress. OCPD, on the other hand, is egosyntonic — marked by the person's acceptance that the characteristics and behaviours displayed as a result are compatible with his or her self-image, or are otherwise appropriate, correct or reasonable." Wikipedia

 

I fall under egodystonic. Would an OCPD individual, who would be egosyntonic, mean they suffer less from obsessive compulsiveness considering they think it's reasonable? Which then it wouldn't really be "true" OCD, right?

 

 

 

so high dopamine lowers serotonin and is one of the possible culprit behind OCD?

 

I should have been more precise; low serotonin tends to exacerbate the symptoms of OCD.

 

Edit: Anyway, toxo is more strongly implicated in schizophrenia; there may be something to the "crazy cat lady" stereotype

 

 

Edited by eon, 21 December 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Ark]

Considering adding these three to your OCD regiment. Memantine, Pregnenolone and low dose Psilocybin. Also make sure your keeping your vitamin d levels up, plus if you have time look into lithium off label it has been used somewhat successfully in conjunction with other drugs/supplements treating anxiety orders.

Edited by Ark, 21 December 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[blood]

Considering the Zoloft I took then is an SSRI but didn't work, what does that tell me?

All it tells you is that Zoloft doesn't work for you.

(That's assuming you took it for long enough to give it a real go).

It doesn't mean a different SSRI wouldn't be helpful for your OCD.

Do you have access to a physician or psychiatrist, or are you self-prescribing?

From wikipedia:

... many OCD patients benefit from the use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), a class of antidepressant medications that allow for more serotonin to be readily available to other nerve cells...

Behavioral therapy (BT), cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), and medications are first-line treatments for OCD...

... Medications as treatment include selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and the tricyclic antidepressants, in particular clomipramine...

[eon]

I tried all those separately not at the same but never used Memantine yet. I've tried Inositol as well. I just tried OTC lithium that has 50 mcg elemental lithium in it, after 1 dose I dumped the whole bottle. I felt like I had Alzheimer's with all the hand trembling and unsteadiness with standing up, my legs felt unstable. It wasn't for me. 

 

What I was getting at was since OCD is linked to the serotonin receptor (for the most part right?), should I be looking into:

 

serotonin receptor agonist (SRA), antagonist, serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SRI), serotonin releasing agents, and even MAOI has been used for OCD.

 

I guess this varies from person to person then right? considering the "selective" serotonin reuptake inhibitor (Zoloft) didn't work for me, could it have worked if I used something that wasn't "selective" but rather working on the serotonin as a whole, say an SRI or a serotonin releasing agent?

 

"SRIs are not synonymous with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), as the latter term is usually used to describe the class of antidepressants of the same name, and because SRIs, unlike SSRIs, can either be selective or non-selective in their action. For example, cocaine, which non-selectively inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine, can be called an SRI but not an SSRI." Wiki

 

Considering adding these three to your OCD regiment. Memantine, Pregnenolone and low dose Psilocybin. Also make sure your keeping your vitamin d levels up, plus if you have time look into lithium off label it has been used somewhat successfully in conjunction with other drugs/supplements treating anxiety orders.

 

[eon]

I think my intent and or attempt to experiment with here is to have less serotonin. So that means I should be looking into serotonin antagonist then?

 

SSRIs (and MAOIs, SRIs, SRAs, etc) can cause serotonin syndrome and akathisia. I think I had serotonin syndrome when I combined 5htp, st john's wort and SAMe as a stack. I never knew what the syndrome was then. This was AFTER I had been off Zoloft and Seroquel and never went back as they were ineffective for me. I think my body didn't need it otherwise it would have worked.

 

Other than drug induced serotonin syndrome, I couldn't find of another reason why it happens. What would cause a person to produce too much serotonin? Genetics?

 

 

 

Considering the Zoloft I took then is an SSRI but didn't work, what does that tell me?

All it tells you is that Zoloft doesn't work for you.

(That's assuming you took it for long enough to give it a real go).

It doesn't mean a different SSRI wouldn't be helpful for your OCD.

Do you have access to a physician or psychiatrist, or are you self-prescribing?

From wikipedia:

... many OCD patients benefit from the use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), a class of antidepressant medications that allow for more serotonin to be readily available to other nerve cells...

Behavioral therapy (BT), cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), and medications are first-line treatments for OCD...

... Medications as treatment include selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and the tricyclic antidepressants, in particular clomipramine...

 

 

[Area-1255]

 

so high dopamine lowers serotonin and is one of the possible culprit behind OCD?

 

I should have been more precise; low serotonin tends to exacerbate the symptoms of OCD.

 

Edit: Anyway, toxo is more strongly implicated in schizophrenia; there may be something to the "crazy cat lady" stereotype

 

OCD is not based on low serotonin, or high serotonin, its based off of central glutamatergic neuron dysfunction and specifically, a strange cAMP-adenosine disinhibition that causes very high calcium channel activity leading to central overstimulation.....however, there are also instances where cAMP is much lower in OCD individuals - and it tends to follow either biphasic histaminergic action e.g action starting with excessive H1 activation and then being exascerbated by H3 activation which reduces cAMP, but also reduces GABA and serotonin as well as other NT's.  

 

NMDA-glutamate receptors are usually distinctively different in OCD, generally being hypoactive (underactive) but not to the point or level of schizophrenia, and interestingly, unlike  schizophrenics, OCD sufferers don't have a net lower glutamate tone and tend to have higher at the kainate and AMPA receptors..if this were exchanged and OCD sufferers were to somehow re-map this networking issue, where NMDA-glutamate receptors are favored over kainate and AMPA, that would be expected to help the situation.....

 

Lowering glutamate may not be the best therapy either, but it can help in many individuals, however, it's interesting to note that there are some OCD sufferers who have actually been noted with LOW GLUTAMATE, and the patterns in these individuals tend to be less compulsive but far more obsessive.

 

Dopamine has a role , but it's the cross-interactions with serotonin that play a bigger role , when dopamine cross-reacts and activates serotonin 2X family, this is expected to worsen OCD symptoms as these serotonin receptors would worsen the calcium / IP3 pathway which is usually already excessive in these individuals.

 

Dopamine doesn't directly worsen nor help OCD, but it may alter the tone of OCD or intensity of thoughts, depending on how much is converting into noradrenaline...and how much at which receptor for both catecholamines.

 

D2R activation in moderate amounts may reduce OCD symptoms if the 5-HT2X serotonin complex is also blocked, and glutamate is under control , because then the contributions to AMPA reactivity by D2R would be reduced, so therefore D2R would raise GABA and hopefully alleviate some excessive stimulation.

 

Serotonin 1A is a weird one, the pre-synaptic autoreceptors receptors are most probably over-active, and the post-synaptic is either under-active or unchanged....however, antagonizing both 1A and 1B receptors would also alter the tone of OCD, possibly reducing some of the more intense and broad OCD symptoms but possibly increasing more externalized symptoms.

 

 

**SOURCES/REFERENCES**

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ocd/basics/causes/con-20027827

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008204000280

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder

[datrat]

I'm not so sure that serotonin doesn't have a role in OCD. I had miserable, intrusive, obsessive fears since I was a kid until I was put on Effexor. Effexor completely obliterated the obsessive fears. The problem; Effexor was way too serotogenic for me, it caused so many miserable side-effects that I never felt like celebrating being rid of, what I once thought, was the bane of my existence.

[Area-1255]

I'm not so sure that serotonin doesn't have a role in OCD. I had miserable, intrusive, obsessive fears since I was a kid until I was put on Effexor. Effexor completely obliterated the obsessive fears. The problem; Effexor was way too serotogenic for me, it caused so many miserable side-effects that I never felt like celebrating being rid of, what I once thought, was the bane of my existence.

I didn't say it didn't have a role, I said it's not specifically about high or low levels, it's about what receptors are / aren't being activated and the overall influence on glutamate mediated currents......

Serotonergic activity can increase obsessive fears in some cases, and even facilitate paranoia depending on which receptor it binds to, let's not forget that LSD (Acid) has affinity for multiple serotonin subtypes and in addition, many other addictive drugs; cocaine even, have pronounced effects on serotonin receptors, especially the 5-HT1A receptor, 2A and type 3 through which they are known to produce some degree of euphoria. 

 

On the other hand, most other serotonin receptors can be emotionally blunting / anhedonic. 

It seems to depend on the person.

 

 

Eur J Pharmacol. 2003 Jan 17;459(2-3):167-9.

Cocaine inhibits 5-HT3 receptor function in neurons from transgenic mice overexpressing the receptor.

Carta M1, Allan AM, Partridge LD, Valenzuela CF.

Author information

 

Abstract

Studies have shown that cocaine alters the function of recombinant 5-HT(3) receptors and that behavioral responses to cocaine are affected by 5-HT(3) receptor ligands. However, the actions of cocaine on brain 5-HT(3) receptors have not been characterized because these receptors are not abundantly expressed in most neuronal populations. We examined the effect of cocaine on 5-HT(3) receptor function in cultured hippocampal neurons from transgenic mice overexpressing the receptor. Cocaine competitively inhibited 5-HT(3) receptors with an IC(50) of approximately 4 microM, indicating that brain 5-HT(3) receptors are important targets for the actions of this commonly abused substance.

PMID:   12524142   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

http://www.sciencedi...166432801002534

 

 

Abstract

Cocaine induced locomotor stimulant effects are generally attributed to cocaine effects on brain dopamine. In this report, we present evidence that the 5-hydroxytryptamine_1A (5-HT_1A) agonist, 8-hydroxy-2-(di-n-propylamino)tetralin (8-OHDPAT) and the 5-HT_1A antagonist, N-[2-[4-(2-methoxyphenyl)-1-piperazinyl]ethyl]-N-2-pyridinyl-cycylhexanecarboxaminde maleate (WAY 100635) can enhance or block, respectively, the locomotor stimulant effects induced by cocaine. In two separate experiments, rats administered cocaine (10 mg/kg) exhibited a locomotor stimulant effect and decreased grooming behavior compared to saline treated rats. Pretreatment with the 5-HT_1A agonist, 8-OHDPAT (0.2 mg/kg) enhanced and pretreatment with the 5-HT_1A antagonist, WAY 100635 (0.4 mg/kg) eliminated the locomotor stimulant effect of cocaine. Neither the 8-OHDPAT nor WAY 100635 effects were attributable to effects on the behavioral baseline. The 8-OHDPAT and WAY 100635 had opposite effects on grooming behavior. 8-OHDPAT decreased and WAY 100635 increased grooming. Neither treatment, however, affected the grooming suppression induced by cocaine. Ex vivo biochemical measurements indicated that neither 8-OHDPAT or WAY 100635 affected brain dopamine metabolism or cocaine availability in brain. Both treatments affected 5-HT metabolism and altered the effect of cocaine on 5-HT metabolism. 8-OHDPAT increased and WAY 100635 decreased cocaine effects on 5-HT metabolism. Cocaine and 8-OHDPAT but not WAY 100635 increased corticosterone. Altogether, these findings indicate that the 5-HT_1A receptor site may be an important target for the development of pharmacotherapies for the treatment of cocaine abuse.

[eon]

name drop some drug compounds regarding your last 2 paragraphs...

 

would taking a calcium channel blocker be worth looking into? Nimodipine comes to mind as it is one and is listed in "Smart Drug 2" (book).

 

Nimodipine (Nimotop) - This substance can pass the blood-brain barrier and is used to prevent cerebral vasospasm. - Wiki

 

From the book regarding nimodipine: "by blocking calcium channels on the nerve cell membranes, nimodipine slows the entry of calcium into those cells. This has the effect of increasing the magnesium/calcium ratio. Would a magnesium supplement have some of the effects of nimodipine? Maybe."

 

Although I do not have severe OCD anymore, I do supplement with magnesium glycinate. Not sure if that is enough. I only become OCD when I forgot to become OCD as if having such ritualistic habits needed to be done.

 

I don't quite get the whole calcium thing, is this regarding calcium we consume daily? I do not supplement with calcium. Would a calcium deficient diet be enough not to use a calcium channel blocker?

 

 

 

 

so high dopamine lowers serotonin and is one of the possible culprit behind OCD?

 

I should have been more precise; low serotonin tends to exacerbate the symptoms of OCD.

 

Edit: Anyway, toxo is more strongly implicated in schizophrenia; there may be something to the "crazy cat lady" stereotype

 

OCD is not based on low serotonin, or high serotonin, its based off of central glutamatergic neuron dysfunction and specifically, a strange cAMP-adenosine disinhibition that causes very high calcium channel activity leading to central overstimulation.....however, there are also instances where cAMP is much lower in OCD individuals - and it tends to follow either biphasic histaminergic action e.g action starting with excessive H1 activation and then being exascerbated by H3 activation which reduces cAMP, but also reduces GABA and serotonin as well as other NT's.  

 

NMDA-glutamate receptors are usually distinctively different in OCD, generally being hypoactive (underactive) but not to the point or level of schizophrenia, and interestingly, unlike  schizophrenics, OCD sufferers don't have a net lower glutamate tone and tend to have higher at the kainate and AMPA receptors..if this were exchanged and OCD sufferers were to somehow re-map this networking issue, where NMDA-glutamate receptors are favored over kainate and AMPA, that would be expected to help the situation.....

 

Lowering glutamate may not be the best therapy either, but it can help in many individuals, however, it's interesting to note that there are some OCD sufferers who have actually been noted with LOW GLUTAMATE, and the patterns in these individuals tend to be less compulsive but far more obsessive.

 

Dopamine has a role , but it's the cross-interactions with serotonin that play a bigger role , when dopamine cross-reacts and activates serotonin 2X family, this is expected to worsen OCD symptoms as these serotonin receptors would worsen the calcium / IP3 pathway which is usually already excessive in these individuals.

 

Dopamine doesn't directly worsen nor help OCD, but it may alter the tone of OCD or intensity of thoughts, depending on how much is converting into noradrenaline...and how much at which receptor for both catecholamines.

 

D2R activation in moderate amounts may reduce OCD symptoms if the 5-HT2X serotonin complex is also blocked, and glutamate is under control , because then the contributions to AMPA reactivity by D2R would be reduced, so therefore D2R would raise GABA and hopefully alleviate some excessive stimulation.

 

Serotonin 1A is a weird one, the pre-synaptic autoreceptors receptors are most probably over-active, and the post-synaptic is either under-active or unchanged....however, antagonizing both 1A and 1B receptors would also alter the tone of OCD, possibly reducing some of the more intense and broad OCD symptoms but possibly increasing more externalized symptoms.

 

 

**SOURCES/REFERENCES**

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ocd/basics/causes/con-20027827

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008204000280

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder

 

 

[Area-1255]

 

name drop some drug compounds regarding your last 2 paragraphs...

 

would taking a calcium channel blocker be worth looking into? Nimodipine comes to mind as it is one and is listed in "Smart Drug 2" (book).

 

Nimodipine (Nimotop) - This substance can pass the blood-brain barrier and is used to prevent cerebral vasospasm. - Wiki

 

From the book regarding nimodipine: "by blocking calcium channels on the nerve cell membranes, nimodipine slows the entry of calcium into those cells. This has the effect of increasing the magnesium/calcium ratio. Would a magnesium supplement have some of the effects of nimodipine? Maybe."

 

Although I do not have severe OCD anymore, I do supplement with magnesium glycinate. Not sure if that is enough. I only become OCD when I forgot to become OCD as if having such ritualistic habits needed to be done.

 

I don't quite get the whole calcium thing, is this regarding calcium we consume daily? I do not supplement with calcium. Would a calcium deficient diet be enough not to use a calcium channel blocker?

 

 

No and Yes;  it's regarding calcium ions that are triggered by glutamate. histamine, serotonin ,adrenaline , etc

(visualize the mineral calcium being taken into an electrical stream of energy and that this energy activates glutamate , GABA, norepinephrine)

The more calcium channels and calmodulin-kinase-channels/Ca2+ the less uptake of calcium into the bones the more in the brain , the less calcium channels as with 5-HT1B activation, beta blockade etc, the calcium retracts from the nerves and gets into the bones and other tissues, low calcium channel can be dangerous as well because it can pre-dispose one to kidney stones and other calcium related issues such as over-methylation.

 

 

It should all make sense now.

 

Calcium channels are an important modulator of homeostasis, and they are needed for blood pressure maintenance; if they rise too high they will cause BP issues due to central norepinephrine/glutamate overload..and even though glutamate stimulates nitric oxide, it also has an effect on the efflux of norepinephrine, and due to it's effects through cortisol, it can also raise blood pressure.

 

You want to minimize cortisol, but you don't want to eliminate glutamate, because glutamate is needed for calcium channels and for proper energy production as well as some is needed in the balance of keeping your blood pressure stable.

http://www.ecmjourna...pdf/v007a02.pdf

http://hmg.oxfordjou...11/20/2377.full

 

 

See comment in PubMed Commons below

Cell. 2008 Nov 28;135(5):825-37. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2008.09.059.

Lrp5 controls bone formation by inhibiting serotonin synthesis in the duodenum.

Yadav VK1, Ryu JH, Suda N, Tanaka KF, Gingrich JA, Schütz G, Glorieux FH, Chiang CY, Zajac JD, Insogna KL, Mann JJ, Hen R, Ducy P, Karsenty G.

Author information

 

Abstract

Loss- and gain-of-function mutations in the broadly expressed gene Lrp5 affect bone formation, causing osteoporosis and high bone mass, respectively. Although Lrp5 is viewed as a Wnt coreceptor, osteoblast-specific disruption of beta-Catenin does not affect bone formation. Instead, we show here that Lrp5 inhibits expression of Tph1, the rate-limiting biosynthetic enzyme for serotonin in enterochromaffin cells of the duodenum. Accordingly, decreasing serotonin blood levels normalizes bone formation and bone mass in Lrp5-deficient mice, and gut- but not osteoblast-specific Lrp5 inactivation decreases bone formation in a beta-Catenin-independent manner. Moreover, gut-specific activation of Lrp5, or inactivation of Tph1, increases bone mass and prevents ovariectomy-induced bone loss. Serotonin acts on osteoblasts through the Htr1b receptor and CREB to inhibit their proliferation. By identifying duodenum-derived serotonin as a hormone inhibiting bone formation in an Lrp5-dependent manner, this study broadens our understanding of bone remodeling and suggests potential therapies to increase bone mass.

Comment in

• When the gut talks to bone. [Cell. 2008]

PMID:   19041748   [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]    PMCID:   PMC2614332     Free PMC Article

 

Edited by Area-1255, 23 December 2014 - 02:09 PM.

[eon]

which is why I can't find such a thing as glutamate agonists? 

 

Is it like vitamin K is needed for vitamin D to get in to the bones and not the blood? So how does calcium get to the bones and not the brain? Vitamin K? I do not supplement with calcium.

 

Norephinephrine isn't all that needed unless you are fighting for a world championship boxing, right? So a beta blocker seems to block this fight or flight neurotranmitter but what can it do to OCD?

 

So should I look more into NMDA antagonist drugs for OCD then? Which magnesium is. What about a glutamine supplement considering it sounds like it's for the glutamate? What about ATP supplements? Also, adenosine reuptake inhitors, are they something to consider? Calcium channel blockers fall under this type.

 

How does one lower or raise cAMP so I can experiment with either one?

 

"Adenosine plays an important role in biochemical processes, such as energy transfer — as adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and adenosine diphosphate (ADP) — as well as in signal transduction as cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). It is also a neuromodulator, believed to play a role in promoting sleep and suppressing arousal."

 

​Could the suppression of "arousal" be similar to suppressing "obsession"?

 

"Caffeine's principal mode of action is as an antagonist of adenosine receptors in the brain."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine

 

Does this mean caffeine may cause or potentiate OCD? I have a feeling it's part of it.

 

I looked into the drug Dilantin and its effective use in Obsession. The drug was the subject of the book "A Remarkable Medicine Has Been Overlooked" by Jack Dreyfuss.

 

It's foremost an anticonvulsant medicine but I'm still looking more into it as to why it works for obessision. It has other uses as well according to the "Smart Drugs" book series.

Edited by eon, 24 December 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[eon]

So should I be looking to glutamatergic compounds?

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Glutamic_acid

 

MSG (monosodium glutamate) is the salt version of glutamic acid. 

 

"Monosodium glutamate (MSG, also known as sodium glutamate) is the sodium salt of glutamic acid, one of the most abundant naturally-occurring non-essential amino acids.[Manuf. 1] MSG is found in tomatoes, Parmesan, potatoes, mushrooms, and other vegetables and fruits."

 

"Studies exploring MSG's role in obesity have yielded mixed results.[13][14] Although several studies have investigated anecdotal links between MSG and asthma, current evidence does not support a causal association.[15] Since glutamates are important neurotransmitters in the human brain, playing a key role in learning and memory, ongoing neurological studies indicate a need for further research."

 

"If MSG is a problem, why doesn't everyone in China have a headache?"

 

http://en.wikipedia....odium_glutamate

 

I wonder what the prevalence of OCD is in China compared to the U.S.?

 

"If MSG is so bad for you, why doesn't everyone in Asia have a headache?" Article below:

 

http://www.theguardi...drink.features3

 

"Some people wonder how OCD could grow from a little-known condition just a few decades ago to one widely recognized today.  They ask if OCD is some new form of disorder brought about by the way our society is changing, or if parents are doing something differently today that has caused a spike in the prevalence of this disorder."

 

http://www.ocdeducat...ncidence-of-ocd

 

Did the fear mongering regarding MSG's status have anything to do with the prevalence of OCD since not many use MSG anymore?

 

"Much current research is devoted to the therapeutic potential of the agents that affect the release of the neurotransmitter glutamate or the binding to its receptors."

 

http://en.wikipedia....isorder#History

 

[eon]

Area-1255, I shall look into histaminergics as well regarding OCD. I'm not sure if having lower or higher cAMP can be measured. So high histamine can lower cAMP, GABA and serotonin, which could be a cause of OCD. But regarding high calcium channel activity as the cause of OCD as well, I looked into calcium channel blockers, mainly something nootropical like nimodipine as it crosses blood brain barrier.

 

Considering magnesium may work like a calcium channel blocker, the types of magnesium matters I suppose. I've currently been on steady magnesium glycinate but have tried aspartate as well for a short amount of time.

 

Yet I don't understand why a suggestion of taking a calcium supplement with magnesium is "a must" according to the seller of bulk powder magnesium.

 

"Ionic calcium is antagonized by magnesium ions in the nervous system. Because of this, bioavailable supplements of magnesium, possibly including magnesium chloride, magnesium lactate, and magnesium aspartate, may increase or enhance the effects of calcium channel blockade."

 

http://en.wikipedia....channel_blocker

 

Edited by eon, 29 December 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[eon]

is not knowing how to let go (i.e. obsessing) a form of OCD and or obsession? Say you had a falling out with a family member over what the person did and you refuse to let the problem go (whatever it may be) and has become an obsession as a form of holding a grudge. I'm trying to learn how to let go but it seems difficult as if this compulsion to obsess about something that had already happened has been preventing me from letting something that happened in the past be the past. In other words, I need to learn how to move on, but find it difficult, especially if it's a relative, but not so much with a stranger (because a stranger is really just that).

[datrat]

is not knowing how to let go (i.e. obsessing) a form of OCD and or obsession? Say you had a falling out with a family member over what the person did and you refuse to let the problem go (whatever it may be) and has become an obsession as a form of holding a grudge. I'm trying to learn how to let go but it seems difficult as if this compulsion to obsess about something that had already happened has been preventing me from letting something that happened in the past be the past. In other words, I need to learn how to move on, but find it difficult, especially if it's a relative, but not so much with a stranger (because a stranger is really just that).

 

I'm not sure if this will be helpful to you or not, but I'll explain my own experience with holding and not letting go of grudges. I suffered from mildly to moderately severe obsessive fears for most of my life. Then I was put on the snri Effexor and in just a few weeks these obsessive thoughts were just obliterated. Unfortunately effexor was just too seretonongenic for me and caused a host of nasty side effects. One of the side effects was increased anger and holding grudges. I would get mad at someone for a genuinely good reason, but I simply could not let go of my anger and would obsessively ruminate about how mad I was at this person and on and on forever. I finally got off snri's and went back to tca's and within a few days almost all of my long standing grudges just melted away. It did take about 8 months total to be rid of all grudges and a great deal of my anger, but I'm pretty normal now when it comes to getting mad at someone and then letting it go when it's over.

 

I'm not sure if any of this pertains to your situation, but in my case not letting go of grudges was not part of the obsessive/compulsive spectrum, but rather too much serotonin causing too much NE firing, at least in specific parts of my brain, and this led to increased anger and holding grudges forever.
 

[eon]

Lots of drugs that are serotonergic and TCAs are considered to cause serotonin syndrome. Not sure how the TCA you took worked for you. I think I know what you mean by being angrier and holding more grudges than you really had. I think it's too much serotonin. SSRIs, TCAs, and SNRIs I would think would exacerbate the symptoms.

 

I took herbals: 5htp, SAMe, and St. John's Wort in combination. 5htp and St. John's Wort are listed as the herbals that can cause serotonin syndrome. I think too much adrenaline makes one vigilant. It's good when you're in battle but if you're with loved ones or co-workers being obsessively watchful may cause problems add to that the OCD.

 

A serotonin antagonist would work for the situation you described, not sure how a TCA helped you, but I guess it depends on what type of action the medicine you took had. Which one was it?

 

Thinking about the grudges or something small and blown out of proportion by the mind is somewhat obsessive I think as it keeps repeating in one's mind similar to an OCD. I was already OCD before I took the meds/herbals so upon taking them I guess gave me too much serotonin and exacerbated my OCD symptoms. 

Edited by eon, 03 January 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[datrat]

It's not true of all tca's, but many don't inhibit SERT as strongly as the snri's/ssri's. So with those tca's that are less inhibiting you don't have as much serotonin floating around in your brain, so less potential for triggering anger. The downside is that physical side-effects (dry mouth, constipation, etc,) are worse with tca's and also with less serotonin obsessive/compulsive symptoms can worsen. I do agree with you that the inability to let go of anger does feel obsessive, but for me it was almost as if I enjoyed being angry and didn't want to drop my grudges, rather than being unable to.

[AOLministrator]

U noobs nothing helpful did ever come from this neurotransmitter pseudoscience esotericism talk. Better embrace some REAL shamanism with real hallucinogenic drugs or continue to go by your "mitochondrial support" (hahahhahaha) placebos for less risky stuff.

[eon]

I know what you mean, as if anger is a "gift", enjoying much of it would not allow you to drop the grudges, so it goes round and round. Like I said, it's fine if you're in battle but not in the "real world". 

 

It's not true of all tca's, but many don't inhibit SERT as strongly as the snri's/ssri's. So with those tca's that are less inhibiting you don't have as much serotonin floating around in your brain, so less potential for triggering anger. The downside is that physical side-effects (dry mouth, constipation, etc,) are worse with tca's and also with less serotonin obsessive/compulsive symptoms can worsen. I do agree with you that the inability to let go of anger does feel obsessive, but for me it was almost as if I enjoyed being angry and didn't want to drop my grudges, rather than being unable to.

 

Don't get me started with hallucinogenics! Do not call yourself a shaman if you haven't tried Datura. Off topic...

 

U noobs nothing helpful did ever come from this neurotransmitter pseudoscience esotericism talk. Better embrace some REAL shamanism with real hallucinogenic drugs or continue to go by your "mitochondrial support" (hahahhahaha) placebos for less risky stuff.

 

[eon]

OCD is defined as:

 

"Excessive thoughts (obsessions) that lead to repetitive behaviors (compulsions)".

 

If OCD is excessive thoughts that lead to repetitive behavior, would calming down the thoughts be the first step in avoiding repetitive behavior? So how then do you shut these thoughts down? Where does thoughts really come from?

 

"Researchers have yet to pinpoint the exact cause of OCD, but brain differences, genetic influences, and environmental factors are being studied. Brain scans of people with OCD have shown that they have different patterns of brain activity than people without OCD and that different functioning of circuitry within a certain part of the brain, the striatum, may cause the disorder. Differences in other parts of the brain and neurotransmitter dysregulation, especially serotonin and dopamine, may also contribute to OCD.^[47] Independent studies have consistently found unusual dopamine and serotonin activity in various regions of the brain in individuals with OCD. These can be defined as dopaminergichyperfunction in the prefrontal cortex (mesocortical dopamine pathway) and serotonergic hypofunction in the basal ganglia.^[48][49][50] Glutamate dysregulation has also been the subject of recent research,^[51][52] although its role in the disorder's etiology is not yet clear. Glutamate is known to act as a cotransmitter with dopamine in dopamine pathways that project out of the ventral tegmental area."

 

http://en.wikipedia....urotransmitters

 

So the "root" of OCD may lay in the striatum?

[sensei]

 

but high serotonin leads to serotonin syndrome?

 

 

 

Not really.

 

Serotonin Syndrome refers to a syndrome of acute and extremely high levels of Synaptic Serotonin most commonly caused specifically by drugs/foods/herbs that inhibit Monamine oxidase (MAOIs) in combination with drugs/foods/herbs that suppress the re-uptake of serotonin (SSRIs, SSNRIs).

 

Monoamine oxidase braks down serotonin and other neurotransmitters -- MAOIs stop that process -- leaving more Serotonin available at the synapse.

 

SSRIs/SSNRIs --- inhibit the reuptake of Serotonin into the presynaptic cell.

 

Or by intentional or unintentional overdose of said drugs

 

That said, it can also be caused by a combination of any drug or metabolite that significantly raises levels of serotonin -- and concomitant (simultaneous) use of drugs that limit re-uptake, inhibit monoamine oxidase -- or affect the cytochrome pathway for clearance of said drugs.

 

Libby Zion apparently died from SS because of the metabolite of pethidine -- norpethidine which apparently raises serotonin -- used in combination with phenelzine an IRREVERSIBLE MAOI -- meaning it binds to MAOI permanently, rendering the MAOI ineffective -- resulting in reduced MAOI activity in the CNS until the body can make more.

 

Moral of Serotonin Syndrome -- IRREVERSIBLE MAOIs are bad news unless you absolutely need to use them because other psychotropics fail to work.

 

That said, It is not a common syndrome.

 

Millions of people are taking said drugs -- without causing boatloads Serotonin Syndrome  

[eon]

Does anyone here think there is an association between OCD and hoarding? I think there is...

 

While my OCD is no longer severe, I must mention that after taking Kava, my productivity has increased and I finally had the time to throw out all items I hoarded for over 10 years! Looking at all of it made me think that time was wasted collecting junk I have no use for but at least I've finally learned to let it all go. It's such a relief. The things I hoarded were magazines, catalogs, old notes that I know I have no need but still kept. All of it gone in the trash and shredded using my paper shredder which I bought but haven't used in almost 4 years! CDs I haven't listened to in years will be sold on Ebay. CDs I listen to, I dumped all cases as now I view it as clutter and now I only keep the actual disc and I have a CD binder I bought that can store 500 CDs. I'm even surprised I found a belt bag that had a date from 1995! I just kept it all these years because something about my mind has a hard time letting go. I would think this is part of the OCD/hoarding disorder. Plus, I'm also motivated in moving, therefore I need less stuff as possible. I still think kava was responsible for me finally letting go of the items I hoarded throughout the years. It feels great to let go. Anyone else with a similar story, go on, tell us.

 

What is compulsive hoarding? Compulsive hoarding includes ALL three of the following:

 

1. A person collects and keeps a lot of items, even things that appear useless or of little value to most people, and

2. These items clutter the living spaces and keep the person from using their rooms as they were intended, and

3. These items cause distress or problems in day-to-day activities.

 

How is hoarding different from collecting?

 

• In hoarding, people seldom seek to display their possessions, which are usually kept in disarray.

• In collecting, people usually proudly display their collections and keep them well organized.

 

http://iocdf.org/wp-...-Fact-Sheet.pdf

 

The stuff I hoarded aren't exactly a "collection" that I would want to show anyone but they are more like junk mail.

 

What are the signs of compulsive hoarding?

 

• Difficulty getting rid of items

• A large amount of clutter in the office, at home, in the car, or in other spaces (i.e. storage units) that makes it difficult to use furniture or appliances or move around easily

• Losing important items like money or bills in the clutter

• Feeling overwhelmed by the volume of possessions that have ‘taken over’ the house or workspace

• Being unable to stop taking free items, such as advertising flyers or sugar packets from restaurants

• Buying things because they are a “bargain” or to “stock up”

• Not inviting family or friends into the home due to shame or embarrassment

• Refusing to let people into the home to make repairs

 

What makes getting rid of clutter difficult for hoarders?

 

• Difficulty organizing possessions

• Unusually strong positive feelings (joy, delight) when getting new items

• Strong negative feelings (guilt, fear, anger) when considering getting rid of items

• Strong beliefs that items are “valuable” or “useful”, even when other people do not want them

• Feeling responsible for objects and sometimes thinking of inanimate objects as having feelings

• Denial of a problem even when the clutter or acquiring clearly interferes with a person’s life

 

I've had most of these symptoms...

 

Is compulsive hoarding caused by past poverty or hardship?

 

People who hoard may call themselves “thrifty.” They may also think that their behavior is due to having lived through a period of poverty or hardship during their lives. Research to date has not supported this idea. However, experiencing a traumatic event or serious loss, such as the death of a spouse or parent, may lead to a worsening of hoarding behavior.

 

My family went through hardship so I think this is a valid theory but may be hard to prove scientifically. My grandma collected housewares like drinking glasses, etc. Her apartment was almost full of it. My mom always bought anything she found "cheap" at the thrift store. Genetics...

 

Are there medicines that can help reduce hoarding?

 

• Medicine alone does not appear to reduce hoarding behavior.

• Medicine may help reduce the symptoms.

• Medicine can be used to treat conditions that may make hoarding worse, like depression and anxiety.

Edited by eon, 22 March 2015 - 06:43 AM.