5 replies to this topic

[HoldingTheFaith]

I have depression and adrenal fatigue, caused both by psychological and physical stress. So I read somewhere in a post-SSRI forum about this guy that eats 30 grams of lecithin per day and has more refreshing sleep etc Being non-restorative sleep my number one symptom I´ve been trying lecithin for roughy three weeks now, 2 tablespoons in the morning (taken before sleep will make you dream CONSTANTLY, which depresion already does lol).

 

OK so it gives me a dizzy, brainfogged feeling, and slight nausea that lasts much of the afternoon. I was so slow to realise this because with my horrible sleep is not uncommon to feel like that in the mornings but the malaise is different on lecithin. Then I found this:

 

https://bbrfoundatio...-narsad-grantee

 

Awesome! I managed to find a supplement that makes depression worse. Yayyyy. All of this is fascinating scientifically, but I feel like shit, and that nullifies the interest of acetylcholine, depression and self experimentation.

 

PD: It also makes you ejaculate more, but it is kind of sad that you supplement for that IMO.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 19 November 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[StevesPetRat]

Any article that claims to have found the "root cause of depression" is 100% bullshit, if you'll pardon the language, but I do feel very strongly about this. It's absurd that researchers are STILL hung up on this "durrr 1 neurotransmitter imbalance CAUSES depression" nonsense from out of the 1970s. When most vitamin deficiencies, several mineral deficiencies, lack of sufficient protein, every autoimmune disease, infections, cancer, hypothyroidism, hyperparathyroidism, etc etc etc all have depression as a SYMPTOM, one should be extremely skeptical of any glib hypothesis about depression that can be summarized in a single sentence. This archaic thinking brought me and I'm sure 1000s of others to the brink of suicide (you can read some of the bleak, self-pitying garbage I posted around here months ago) because "hurrr durrr we know depression is caused by low serotonin" to quote my quack, err I mean shrink. Nevermind that I had *every single* physical and mental symptom of anticholinergic exposure before being put on an SSRI, and 6 weeks on that garbage made everything 10x worse. Nope, it's serotonin, let's get you on a cocktail of drugs to hit that target even harder. Thank God my insurance never approved the Abilify or who knows what psyche ward I'd be locked up in today. Needless to say, once I figured all this out, I found lecithin and pro-cholinergic supplementation to have a *profound* effect in restoring my mood and cognition. /rant
OK, with that out of the way... sounds like this article DOES apply to you OP, so on the bright side, at least you have some idea of what to try treatment-wise going forward. Bust out the Benadryl, pound some piracetam!

[HoldingTheFaith]

I know what you mean and I agree 100% re Hurr Durr Scientists that act like one thing is the answer. However my point is that acetylcholine seems involved with at least a subset of depressed people. Increasing acetylcholine does make me feel a lot worse. I assume I already have high acetylcholine. Some scientists have drawn a, in my opinion legit link, between the well known excessive REM sleep in depression and acetylcholine dysregulation (not just high acetylcholine, of course is more complex than that).

 

http://psycnet.apa.o.../1982-23713-001

 

I mean pretty much I know my "depression" has a ton of factors including HPA axis dysregulation but apparently I do not benefit from supplemental choline.

 

Hey, please tell me how you figured out your case and what helped!  . 

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 19 November 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[StevesPetRat]

LOL, that post was a little crankier than intended, even for a rant. Haven't been sleeping enough lately -- been working online till 4 or 5 am trying to get out of the tremendous hole I'm in from months of being unable to work. It is very likely true, as you have stated, that in a subset of depressed people, acetylcholine is excessive. I hate that most psychiatrists do not heed physical symptoms. The field's insistence on compartmentalizing and categorizing mental illness rather than taking a more integrated approach has set it back decades. Of course, you could make this claim about any subfield of Western medicine, but it's IMO particularly detrimental to psychiatry.

 

I'm somewhat the opposite of you; as far as I can tell, I have virtually no REM sleep (I had a sleep study done last year, it was about 20 minutes out of 4 hours IIRC -- and I never seem to dream). As for figuring it out, I had to be smacked in the face by the most obvious list of physical symptoms ever, and it still took me almost a year... I have a thread here if you're really hungry for more detail (If you do read that, I'm not 100% sure I actually have any lasting nerve or muscle damage, it could just be another anticholinergic symptom. The rest are confirmed though). I added to my stack based on this insight two weeks ago, and words can't explain how huge a difference it has made. I have emotions again! And a sense of humor! And I don't forget everything 15 seconds after it happens! I was going to wait a month to make sure these aren't just placebo effects -- though I don't see how they could be; Ive tried dozens of interventions in the past year and nothing has given a placebo effect past the first dose -- and then post a new thread, but here's the preview: 1/2 kilo of blueberries, 20 g sunflower lecithin, and 200 mg fisetin a day. Edit: forgot 450 mg pantethine for acetyl-CoA synthesis

 

Best of luck in your journey through the depths of your brain. You probably don't want to add the lecithin, but the other ingredients have effects beyond the cholinergic system and may be useful (fisetin is pretty cheap, blueberries not as much...).

Edited by StevesPetRat, 21 November 2014 - 12:02 AM.

[HoldingTheFaith]

Half a kilo of blueberries? Holy cow that could get expensive in fact. But I like the superfood-loading approach. It has helped me a lot, and I favour it before supplements. I especially recommend juicing like 600 grams (one big) romaine lettuce everyday, if you look it up it gives 100% of RDA folate and 25% aprox of all the other B-tamins.

 

Yeah I have a lot of REM, as all classic depressed have. It comes from rumination. Acetylcholine doesnt help us at all! I stopped lecithin and I am already feeling a ton better.

 

Panthetine = neat supplement. Lowers prolactin, supports adrenals, gives energy trough the acetyl-CoA thingie. I notice a libido lift while on it (I have high prolactin for some reason)

 

Fisetin, as a flavonoid, is probably a great supplement. Looks cheap, I would do one month trial. Does it improve mood or just cognition? I am on grape seed extract right now, good stuff for my intestinal inflammation, probably will make more things for me long term.

 

Hey now we have in longecity a lot of options to rate comments. Pretty cool.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 21 November 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[StevesPetRat]

Fisetin, as a flavonoid, is probably a great supplement. Looks cheap, I would do one month trial. Does it improve mood or just cognition?

It has really increased my stress resistance. I also find myself singing for no reason again. Your mileage may vary, though, as the kids say.