6 replies to this topic

[arbettor]

Hi,

 

I've been struggling the past few months studying for an incredibly difficult and long exam (6hour) which is a week from tomorrow. I've been using focalin xr and oxiracetam to help me study for it, along with choline cdp.

 

Two days ago I purchased brain health from GNC because I read on the forums bacopa and huperzine are helpful for short term memory.

 

I took my focalin at 8am, bought the gnc supp, took it at 12:30 and for the next two hours I felt great. Reading everything, comprehending, solving questions faster then I have before. I thought, but what about the oxi which I've been using the past few months? Wouldn't I need to use it during the test so I could recall the concepts I learned while on it? So at 4 I tried taking a quarter teaspoon of oxiracetam and 10mins later when I sat down to read, my brain seemed to shut down. I couldnt understand the question I was reading, or recall anything from my memory to help me solve the questions I had been sucessfully answering. Two days later, I'm still suffering from brain fog. Im struggling to read. My memory recall is not existant. I've gone from working at 100mph to barely keeping up at 10mph. My brain seems to be retarded. I've been reading in the forums that maybe the huperzine and precursors I took had overloaded my acetylcholine receptors, but I don't even know anymore. Really struggling. Would really appreciate some help from you guys. I'm desperate. I went from being very confident about my abilities, memory, and problem solving skills, to being incredibly worried about this exam. My focalin has stopped helping me focus and concetrate. I don't know what to do.

 

Amount Per Serving % DV Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 50.00 mg 83% Vitamin D-3 (as Cholecalciferol) 200.00 IU 50% Vitamin B6 (As Pyridoxine Hydrochloride and Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) 50.00 mg 2500% Folic Acid (as Folic Acid and 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate) 100.00 mcg 25% Vitamin B12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 100.00 mcg 1666% Brain Function Support Blend 0.00 ** L-Tyrosine 500.00 mg ** Choline (as Choline Bitartrate) 100.00 mg ** Acetyl L-Carnitine as (Acetyl L-Carnitine Hydrochloride) 100.00 mg ** Phosphatidylserine 100.00 mg ** DMAE (2-(Dimethylamino)ethanol) 10.00 mg ** Huperzine A 100.00 mcg ** Blood Flow & Circulation Support Complex 0.00 ** Gingko biloba Leaf Extract (24% Ginkgo Flavonglycosides 28.8mg 6% Terpene Lactones 7.2mg) 120.00 mg ** Turmeric Root Extract (Curcuma longa) 50.00 mg ** resVida® trans-Resveratrol 30.00 ** Astaxanthin 1.00 ** Antioxidant Support Blend 0.00 ** Bacopa Monnieri Leaf Extract 100.00 mg ** Ashwagandha Root Extract (Withania somnifera) 50.00 mg ** Ginger Root Powder (Zingiber officinalis) 23.00 mg ** Lutemax 2020™ Lutein 7.00 mg **

 

was it the oxiracetam that put me over the hedge? That's the conclusion I've come to.

[arbettor]

http://www.gnc.com/G...ductId=13218611

 

that's a link to the product i bought.

 

Could it be an acetycholine overload? So far that's the conclusion I've come to from reading on these forums about huperzine and precursor interactions. I was wondering if that, along with my focalin xr and the eventual oxiracetam dose that put me into that state. I'm slowly regaining my cognitive abilities but I'm still not 100 percent back yet. Anyone have any ideas of what might be wrong?

[StevesPetRat]

Hi. I'm 99% sure that the results of this study apply to you. Not the "acute stress" part, but the long term downregulation of ChAT and upregulation of AChE that occurs due to the ACh surge. You probably have too little acetylcholine now, but boosting it directly will be counterproductive. Instead, I found that the cFos inhibitor fisetin was most effective in reversing such brain fog. I haven't found it in stores, but you can get a bottle for like $12 on Amazon.

 

In the meanwhile, you could try eating as many strawberries as you could possibly stomach. Good luck!

[arbettor]

Hi. I'm 99% sure that the results of this study apply to you. Not the "acute stress" part, but the long term downregulation of ChAT and upregulation of AChE that occurs due to the ACh surge. You probably have too little acetylcholine now, but boosting it directly will be counterproductive. Instead, I found that the cFos inhibitor fisetin was most effective in reversing such brain fog. I haven't found it in stores, but you can get a bottle for like $12 on Amazon.

 

In the meanwhile, you could try eating as many strawberries as you could possibly stomach. Good luck!

 

Thanks Steve,

 

I'm even more concerned now then I was before. So am I too assume these are long term changes to cholingeneric system that occured?

I had trouble falling asleep last night. I kept looking at my phone rumminating whether or not exitotoxicity and neurotoxicity was something I had just put my brain through. Reading my previous posts I'm a little peeved by my inability to be articulate here.

 

So just to guide me though this, The AChe and ac precurosors in the brain health formula, overwhelmed my receptors and caused a delayed downregulation? I know you're 99% sure with that hypothesis, but am I wrong to believe that I may have experienced excitotoxicity? Oxiracetam increasing the glutamate receptors? I was perfectly fine, better then fine, up until I took that microdose and then everything went down blank.

[StevesPetRat]

No, I don't think it was excitotoxicity. You would have had some kind of severe anxiety reaction at the least if it were that, seizure, tics, tinnitus, something. It's not clear from the abstract, but in the full text an acetylcholine surge, whether due to stress or exogenous administration of AChEI's, has the following long-term effects:
1) Increase gene expression of AChE
2) Decrease gene expression of ChAT
3) Decrease gene expression of VAChT
 
It's not receptor downregulation per se. Have you noticed anything like constipation, dry mouth, dry mucus membranes, fever, reduced sweat output, cold extremities, weakness or fasciculations, etc.?
 
This is a guess based on my personal experience, but I would recommend the fisetin. The cFos gene is interesting, it seems to be related to oxidative stress as well as psychological, suggesting that our physiological response to physical and mental stress is the same. Also, any further stress will only make things worse. I would simply give up on studying and practice mindfulness as much as possible during the next week. If the brain fog has already improved already after a few days, you probably won't suffer any permanent effects. The "long term" effects in mice lasted days, so in humans I imagine that translates into weeks -- if we can avoid further insults to the cholinergic system. I imagine the reason people end up with problems lasting years is that we're so good at pushing ourselves into further stress such that the system ends up truly chronically messed up. That was the case with me -- I didn't stop when my body was screaming at me to take a break; I slammed myself again and again until I was completely broken. Don't do the same. Take it easy. I would advise you to skip the exam if you haven't recovered before it's time to take it. Clearly it's already a source of major stress, and take it from me, you do not want to push yourself in this state.

[arbettor]

No, I don't think it was excitotoxicity. You would have had some kind of severe anxiety reaction at the least if it were that, seizure, tics, tinnitus, something. It's not clear from the abstract, but in the full text an acetylcholine surge, whether due to stress or exogenous administration of AChEI's, has the following long-term effects:
1) Increase gene expression of AChE
2) Decrease gene expression of ChAT
3) Decrease gene expression of VAChT
 
It's not receptor downregulation per se. Have you noticed anything like constipation, dry mouth, dry mucus membranes, fever, reduced sweat output, cold extremities, weakness or fasciculations, etc.?
 
This is a guess based on my personal experience, but I would recommend the fisetin. The cFos gene is interesting, it seems to be related to oxidative stress as well as psychological, suggesting that our physiological response to physical and mental stress is the same. Also, any further stress will only make things worse. I would simply give up on studying and practice mindfulness as much as possible during the next week. If the brain fog has already improved already after a few days, you probably won't suffer any permanent effects. The "long term" effects in mice lasted days, so in humans I imagine that translates into weeks -- if we can avoid further insults to the cholinergic system. I imagine the reason people end up with problems lasting years is that we're so good at pushing ourselves into further stress such that the system ends up truly chronically messed up. That was the case with me -- I didn't stop when my body was screaming at me to take a break; I slammed myself again and again until I was completely broken. Don't do the same. Take it easy. I would advise you to skip the exam if you haven't recovered before it's time to take it. Clearly it's already a source of major stress, and take it from me, you do not want to push yourself in this state.

 

Thanks Steve,

 

Went ahead and order fisetin on amazon. Thankfully there's prime on it so I'll have it Monday.

 

I had a really stiff neck for the past two days. My heart rate before I fell asleep the first two nights was really pronounced. Not that it was much higher than it normally is, but the pounding against my chest was louder than it was last night. I read in one of the threads that rummination and a stiffneck were symptoms of excess choline which led me to believe that acetylcholine overload overload. I have been sitting for the past several weeks drilling away at practice exams but the stick neck just surprised me out of the blue. It's gotten a lot better now and nowhere near as painful as it was.

 

I've continued to recover from the initial brain fog, but I'm still not fully there. My reading and comprehension has been lowered, and I'm losing alot of time reading questions and then pulling hairs out of my head trying to focus my brain to recall information that just 5 days ago I would have immediately popped into my head. That might be a problem because the test I'm taking requires me to solve many lengthy problems at a very quick rate. As I write this I'm also struggling a bit with sentence structure and word choice (not to mention punctuation and grammar). I purchased some nicotine gum after having read some studies regarding increased attention and learning, and I must say it has been quite helpful getting me out of that darkness but will discontinue it's use after next week.

 

I'm not able to reschedule the test because it's only available once a year. Hoping that by the time I wake up tomorrow, I'll be as close to 100% as possible. It's the final stretch here, and once that's out of the way I'll have a nice lengthy break.

 

 

One final question. Do you think it's possible that NDRI (focalin) I was taking, combined with the gnc formula filled with all those precursors and noot herbs, created a neurotransmitter imbalance that led to that overwhelming amount of stress? As I said earlier, I was running better than I ever was before with that combination for a few hours before that Oxiracetam dose tipped the scales. Not planning to retry it, having so very little time left before my exam date to risk falling behind another three days but just trying to fully analyze and evaluate the causes behind that very quick brain fog occurance.

 

 

[StevesPetRat]

One final question. Do you think it's possible that NDRI (focalin) I was taking, combined with the gnc formula filled with all those precursors and noot herbs, created a neurotransmitter imbalance that led to that overwhelming amount of stress? As I said earlier, I was running better than I ever was before with that combination for a few hours before that Oxiracetam dose tipped the scales. Not planning to retry it, having so very little time left before my exam date to risk falling behind another three days but just trying to fully analyze and evaluate the causes behind that very quick brain fog occurance.

Yeah, possibly, I'm not a neuroscientist or anything though. You seem to have overdriven your sympathetic nervous system without taking adequate precautions (A common problem around here-- lots of people seem to pump up on dopaminergics without any way to put on the brakes). In my limited understanding, it could certainly lead to the scenario outlined in the paper I linked. When the fisetin comes try 100 mg 2x daily; I opened the caps under my tongue but it's a sticky powder so be careful when you do that. You'll often end up with little yellow clumps on your lips, which can be embarrassing when rushing out the front door right after taking one

I am trying to get ahold of an old friend who actually is a neuroscientist to see what she knows about those various genes, will probably post a new thread when / if I hear back.