21 replies to this topic

[KJx]

Hello and please excuse my ignorance as I'm completely uneducated in this.

The topic should be self explanatory. I am thinking of applying GABA for an ALS patient. Wondering if Phenibut is the same under a different name or somehow different? 

Thanks!

Also, some of you might be able to help with another one of my questions here in this forum: http://www.longecity...for-alzheimers/

Edited by KJx, 15 December 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[jroseland]

The difference is that Gaba is a neurotransmitter and Phenibut is nonprescription drug from Russia. Gaba you can take it directly as a Nootropic (although it's usually taken as as part of stack) even though it's a neurotransmitter that occurs naturally in your mind, other neurotransmitters you can't directly supplement (that I'm aware of)

 

GABA appears both in the brain and throughout the rest of the body in the central nervous system. Smart drug junkies supplement GABA in their expensive designer Nootropic stacks or slightly less expensive DIY Nootropic mixes as it balances out the runaway train of neuronal excitability that systemic upregulators conduct.

Imagine your state of mind as a tightrope walker, suspended between two extremes; GABA, is tranquility and restfulness inducing and the other Glutamate is energy, creativity, motivation and stress. To function as dynamic and robust individuals in a complex society we really need both to thrive.

 

Phenibut has an intimate relationship with the GABA receptors, sometimes even compared to alcohol, it's a purveyor of a tranquil and euphoric mind.

For ALS... I couldn't find any good studies showing Gaba as a positive treatment for ALS. While Phenibut is a hell of a Gabergic drug, it comes with some risks. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I cared about who had ALS.

 

I did detailed videos on both actually... Let me know if this illuminates it for you

[Pallas]

Phenibut is actually a prescription drug in Russia called Noofen, it's sold as a supplement legally in the states and australia though. I'm starting to understand why it's prescript in Russia, this shit is pretty potent. 

[Candidatus]

GABA itself has a very low blood brain barrier permeability so if you ingest pure GABA powder, not that much actually happens. The uptake can be increased by taking nitric oxid boosters but still, nothing spectacular.

Be careful with Phenibut.

By the way, I've read your thread and I consider it EXTREMELY IRRESPONSIBLE to self medicate an alzheimer patient with such a wide variety of obscure and unproven drugs. Someone not sure about the difference between GABA and Phenibut should definitely not attempt to medicate anyone with a brain disease. Period.

Please don't take it as a negative criticism, just a friendly advice

Edited by Candidatus, 16 December 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[KJx]

I heard ALS patients have a disturbed blood-brain barrier, though? Perhaps some GABA might get in? 

As for self-medicating the Alzheimer's patient, well, most of the substances don't have immediate side effects on healthy humans, so I think it's quite safe and I'd probably try them myself once or twice. On the other hand, most of the substances increase memory or nerve growth and protection in one way or another, or reduce glutamate so it's a risk I think worth taking. Especially since the "patient" doesn't really have many alternatives. Most of the substances are actually already tested at least on animals with Alzheimer's, similar neurodegenerative diseases or for memory improvement.  I understand, however, the huge limit of my knowledge as you pointed out, and that is why I'm asking for second opinions, which I sorely need. I would really like someone to take a closer look at each substance I am thinking of using if there are some that are really useless, for these illnessess, in that stack. 

[Candidatus]

Ok, glad to see you are all for a sensible approach 

 

Although I don't want to recommend any nootropics for the sole reason that taking more than 1 at a time is much much different than taking several in a stack (and all the studies are obviously done while administering only 1 nootropic) and also, I have no idea in which stage is this patient nor do I know what other medications is she on, and considering the fact that I am not trained to advise anyone in this area, I can only hypothetically speculate that these nootropics actually might prove useful:

 

Piracetam: http://www.neurology.../43/2/301.short

Cerebrolysin: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20500802

 

Other than that, I would definitely look into neuroprotective antioxidants:

 

Acetylcysteine + Lipoic Acid: https://estudogeral....yl cysteine.pdf

 

...and search for others.

 

And then make sure the patient receives brain nutrients such as:

 

Phosphatydil serine: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1609044

DHA (even though it was not found to improve ALS): http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21045096

 

Also, don't forget to take care of the diet.

 

Recent studies have raised the possibility that the ketogenic diet could provide symptomatic benefit and might even be disease modifying in Alzheimer’s disease. Thus, Reger et al. (2004) found that acute administration of medium-chain triglycerides improves memory performance in Alzheimer’s disease patients. Further, the degree of memory improvement was positively correlated with plasma levels of β-hydroxybutyrate produced by oxidation of the medium-chain triglycerides. If β-hydroxybutyrate is responsible for the memory improvement, then the ketogenic diet, which results in elevated β-hydroxybutyrate levels, would also be expected to improve memory function. http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2367001/

 

Last but not least, ensure some physical activity and if the patient manages to do some cognitive games such as Lumosity (which is pretty mild), it can benefit her much more than any medication.

 

 

 

Edited by Candidatus, 16 December 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[mindpatch]

I heard ALS patients have a disturbed blood-brain barrier, though? Perhaps some GABA might get in? 

As for self-medicating the Alzheimer's patient, well, most of the substances don't have immediate side effects on healthy humans, so I think it's quite safe and I'd probably try them myself once or twice. On the other hand, most of the substances increase memory or nerve growth and protection in one way or another, or reduce glutamate so it's a risk I think worth taking. Especially since the "patient" doesn't really have many alternatives. Most of the substances are actually already tested at least on animals with Alzheimer's, similar neurodegenerative diseases or for memory improvement.  I understand, however, the huge limit of my knowledge as you pointed out, and that is why I'm asking for second opinions, which I sorely need. I would really like someone to take a closer look at each substance I am thinking of using if there are some that are really useless, for these illnessess, in that stack. 

ALS....are we talking about Alzheimer's or Lou Gehrig's Disease?

[KJx]

 

ALS....are we talking about Alzheimer's or Lou Gehrig's Disease?

 

 

Lou Gehrig's Disease.

 

Thank you, Candidatus (do you have candidosis or something ? ;P )

I will inspect the information you provided. I already have like 30-40 substances to inspect ;O a bit overwhelming. I am thinking about applying some aspects of the "Deanna Protocol" for ALS. I too have found out about the ketogenic diet and it really interested me. I think it's worth a go. Although for the moment I asked the person with ALS to try and eat more raw food, fish oil, vitamin B shots and pills, magnesium. To stay away from calcium. 

Also thinking of applying Glutathione and GABA mechanisms into action somehow. Then, because I don't buy that "random gene mutation" BS, I will try to rule out pesticide, heavy metal (heavy rock, too) poisoning and I even plan to offer the patient to use something that could theorically kill brain parasites, like viruses. I think this disease could be caused by one that is unknown.

Too much is not known to medicine to count only on what is known.

I also plan to try TB500, which is supposed to strenghten nerve signals into the muscles (which is lacking in ALS patients) 

Then of course all those nerve growing factors, including curcuminoids, J147, nootropics, which would also grant nerve protection. Hoping to avoid any glutamate stimulation there. Wondering if noopept is good or bad here. As I understand, it helps glutamate move throughout the brain better. Which could prevent it from accumulating in spots and killing neurons there, but could also prove to be dangerous throughout the brain.
So yeah, lots to cover...

[Candidatus]

I was referring to Alzheimer's (based on the thread you referred to), so just discard all the posts I have written  no, no candidosis lol - 2nd person on this board who asks 

Edited by Candidatus, 16 December 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[KJx]

Actually ketogenic diet is highly probably beneficial to ALS patients as well. One of the reasons the cells are dying is lack of energy. Alzheimer's and ALS are very similar in this regard. Someone could say "diabetes of the brain". 

[Fenix_]

According to wikipedia, Phenibut acts as an agonist primarily at GABA B receptor sites while only affecting GABA A at higher dosages. Phenibut has different receptor binding affinitys than GABA so the psychological effects must be different. Additionally, GABA is more likely a safer drug than phenibut as the brain is better equipped to maintain equilibrium when it (an edogeneous neurotransmitter) is in excess through enzymatic metabolism within the brain. Compared to an artificial ligand such as phenibut which is probably removed through either the liver or kidneys. For a more bioavailable form of GABA, capable of crossing the BBB, try picamilon.

Edited by Fenix_, 18 December 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[SuperStack]

Personally, I don't stand very well with the idea of giving phenibut to someone with ALS. I don't really support giving someone who's in a debilitated state, something that has been shown to be an addictive. I don't believe people in that kind of state have a self control of an average being due to the psychological process of accepting a fate. When you're dealt that hand you go down a path of acceptance and there are some parts during that when self control is a very harsh thing to understand.

This is just my opinion though. I believe there are better alternatives to phenibut if you do some research.

[protoject]

I'm in the camp that phenibut is a really bad idea. Kind of in the same ballpark as Baclofen

[Galaxyshock]

If you want GABA-B agonism without troubles, try Gotu Kola or Ashwagandha.

[KJx]

Thank you! I was worried after reading all those reports of people addicted to Phenibut in really bad ways. Glad to hear GABA itself does not come with those side effects. I will just buy some GABA then. Wondering if there's any kind of 'magical' GABA that crosses the blood-brain barrier better. I'll also try to add aswagandha and/or Gotu Kola as suggested. 

I might still buy a stack with a low dose of Phenibut which includes 

Choline (200mg) 

L-Tryptophan (225mg) 

NALT (225mg) 

Phenibut (300mg)

 

But only 20 caps. To have something to try if nothing else works, I guess. I will want to try it myself, too :D It's a low dose and a one or two times try shouldn't hurt. 

[protoject]

Maybe try not taking it daily since it can downregulate gaba-b receptors and probably cause addiction.  That's the advice for yourself. For the ALS patient I recommend not medicating the person unless they are giving you full consent. Otherwise this would just be plainly irresponsible. A disease like that could be fickle and you could be messing things up even more

[KJx]

Of course it will be with full consent. Since I'm going to try like 15 substances I will probably mix them in ~3 groups by risk. Least risky will be given right away and we'll see if it helps. If it helps, but not enough, 2nd group will be used in addition (or instead of the first one for some time). It may sound brutal, but I'd experiment on myself too if I had this disease. 

[JellyRev]

pickup baclofen as well. its the cleaner cousin of phenibut. slightly harder to get, but similar prices per effective dosage. 

 

 

[sensei]

Phenibut β-Phenyl-γ-aminobutyric acid

 

It IS GABA with a phenyl group attached to allow it to cross the blood brain barrier.  Plain GABA supplements are a waste of money -- they can't get across the blood brain barrier.

 

 

[tritium]

Testing...

Edited by rwac, 29 December 2014 - 04:55 AM.
[Pokemon hack removed -mod]

[KJx]

It seems like this substance "Picamilon" could be the perfect way of delivering GABA to the brain? Found it in newstarnootropics, on the to-order list now. Will start giving plain GABA to the patient in 1 or 2 days (in this: http://www.sourcenat...roducts/GP1053/). Also Ubiquinol. 

[Jbac]

Edited by rwac, 29 December 2014 - 04:54 AM.
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