30 replies to this topic

[TheBatman]

A little background info: 

 

I have ADHD-Pi pretty bad and I use adderall to help me manage the symptoms a little better, although I take it differently than most people. Instead of everyday, I use it twice a week. It doesn't matter what day, but only twice. It seems to be more effective and I don't seem to get all "zombied out" and antisocial. In addition to adderall I also take klonopin on an as needed basis, but I do use it to help with adderall insomnia (again, probably not the healthiest choice, but its the only thing iv'e found that works) so usually once or twice a week. In between days I take adderall, I have a stack that helps replenish what adderall uses up as well as a few supplements that i believe help with damage prevention. So far this treatment has been pretty effective.   

 

 

Anyways ever since winter has started I've noticed that I feel much better after I've gone tanning. Now I know tanning itself is harmful to the body and is something i do fairly moderately, but its been a pretty big improvement for me. It seems to be really anxiolytic, especially when i take adderall. I do live in a mountain climate and that probably has something to do with it.

 

I usually have a harder time with depression in the winter time so I try to do anything I can to help it.

 

Can anyone thing of a explanation or a safer alternative for this?

 

 

 

[airplanepeanuts]

Vitamin d?

[TheBatman]

Vitamin d?

 

Maybe. I usually take a vitamin D3 pill in the morning and I honestly don't notice a difference from it.

[FW900]

Tanning, possibly through mechanisms not fully understood associated with melanin production, causes endorphins to be released and has a mild affect on serotonin. It's very reasonable to assume that there is more at play than vitamin d production here.

 

Impact of UVA exposure on psychological parameters and circulating serotonin and melatonin

[Galaxyshock]

Aren't melanin and dopamine production somewhat connected? I remember something like that.

[TheBatman]

Tanning, possibly through mechanisms not fully understood associated with melanin production, causes endorphins to be released and has a mild affect on serotonin. It's very reasonable to assume that there is more at play than vitamin d production here.


Impact of UVA exposure on psychological parameters and circulating serotonin and melatonin

Aren't melanin and dopamine production somewhat connected? I remember something like that.

FW900 - Interesting. I wonder if there's any other way to recreate these effects without a tanning bed or the sun. I tried replicate the effects with a light box and 6,000 IUs of vitamin D (I made sure to take it with a fat source) and it's definitely not the same, so I do think melanin is playing a part. I wonder how much influence melanin has on SAD.

Galaxy - Not sure. I have little to no understanding of how melanin effects mood.

Edited by TheBatman, 20 December 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[Astroid]

Move to South Florida.

 

[TheBatman]

Do you have a spare room and bathroom

[Astroid]

So where are you located? I lived in dreary Pittsburgh for 20 years.. I do think the overcast impacts one's psychic. 

 

 

[airplanepeanuts]

A lot of people of people love tanning presumably also because of this effect.

I avoid direct sun exposure because I'm afraid of what it will do to my skin.

[FW900]

Aren't melanin and dopamine production somewhat connected? I remember something like that.

 

Neuromelanin is linked to dopamine. Melanin might be as well. It is not really known if increased amounts of melanin would lead to would increase amounts of neuromelanin. I would say it is possible.

 

Given that peptides that increase melanin such as melanotan II appears to affect dopamine (increased libido), I would say it there is a connection.

 

FW900 - Interesting. I wonder if there's any other way to recreate these effects without a tanning bed or the sun. I tried replicate the effects with a light box and 6,000 IUs of vitamin D (I made sure to take it with a fat source) and it's definitely not the same, so I do think melanin is playing a part. I wonder how much influence melanin has on SAD.

 

 

Melanotan II and other peptides can increase melanin. Unfortunately, these peptides can have side effects and for all the more anyone knows, could be more harmful than tanning.

[TheBatman]

So where are you located? I lived in dreary Pittsburgh for 20 years.. I do think the overcast impacts one's psychic. 

 

 

Southern Idaho. Its part of the "suicide belt". 

 

I agree the overcast doesn't help. I recently read an article that said altitude can have a large impact on mental health and it may be why the area I live in has such a high suicide rate. I'll try to find the article.

 

Aren't melanin and dopamine production somewhat connected? I remember something like that.

 

Neuromelanin is linked to dopamine. Melanin might be as well. It is not really known if increased amounts of melanin would lead to would increase amounts of neuromelanin. I would say it is possible.

 

Given that peptides that increase melanin such as melanotan II appears to affect dopamine (increased libido), I would say it there is a connection.

 

FW900 - Interesting. I wonder if there's any other way to recreate these effects without a tanning bed or the sun. I tried replicate the effects with a light box and 6,000 IUs of vitamin D (I made sure to take it with a fat source) and it's definitely not the same, so I do think melanin is playing a part. I wonder how much influence melanin has on SAD.

 

 

Melanotan II and other peptides can increase melanin. Unfortunately, these peptides can have side effects and for all the more anyone knows, could be more harmful than tanning.

 

 

Hmmm. I suppose the best option would be living somewhere warmer then. 

[jerrybusey]

This is a stretch, but maybe the mild immunosuppression resulting from UV exposure helped. I think in some cases (like mine) immune disorders can contribute to ADHD-pi. My case improved significantly (though by no means completely) once I started infliximab. That said, that isn't a drug you would want to touch with even a ten foot pole unless absolutely necessary.

[VastEmptiness]

Subjectively tanning made a big difference for me, too. That is a slight but noticeable better feeling afterwards and for about one week and improved self-image was a big deal back then, as I used to have a really unhealthy skin colour due to my nerd background (and tan makes you look alot more defined too). Since I live in Northeast Brazil now this all isn't an issue anymore, but I guess if i move to Northern Europe again, tanning alongside VitaminD/FishOil will be a very standard practice for me again. Short sessions that give you a light tan every 1 to 2 weeks seemed to work fine. No need to look like a baked douche

 

Also look for quality/safety control on the tubes, look for the type of UV that actually produces Vitamin D and always protect/limit sunburn (in a tube thats really easy).

[Flex]

According to this, endrophins are believed to cause the addiction:

http://www.cbsnews.c...ug-study-finds/

 

The problem with Vitamine D pils is that they are under dosed, in contrast to 10min tanning.

Afaik 1,000 IU vs 10,000 IU

 

This could also explain the better feeling

 

Evoked dopamine overflow is augmented in the striatum of calcitriol treated rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22133428

 

Calcitriol promotes augmented dopamine release in the lesioned striatum of 6-hydroxydopamine treated rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24858239

 

Calcitrol is a metabolite of Vitamin D3

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Calcitriol

 

Klonopin is a Benzo and Benzos could lead to perresistent health problems.

Just take a look for reports in longecity :

Benzo withdrawal 14 months off, still suffering with cognitive impairment

http://www.longecity...ive-impairment/

 

http://en.wikipedia....drawal_syndrome

[deeptrance]

 

Aren't melanin and dopamine production somewhat connected? I remember something like that.

 

Neuromelanin is linked to dopamine. Melanin might be as well.

 

 

Yes, l-tyrosine is a precursor to both melanin and dopamine. In fact, there may be an effect of tanning which diverts some production of dopamine to produce melanin. http://www.dovepress...hp?fileID=22774   This would be consistent with the suggestion that tanning results in temporary increase of serotonin via competitive inhibition between dopamine and serotonin. 

 

Here is a discussion of the theoretical link between altitude and depression: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3819157/

The gist of this hypothesis is that lower oxygen levels at higher altitudes lead to a decrease in serotonin production. There is a further discussion of the possibility that dopamine-driving behavior (such as "extreme sports" and risk-taking) is correlated with altitude, which is supported by data but not yet proven as anything other than coincidental.

 

I personally find it extremely enjoyable and relaxing to lie in the sun for 10-20 minutes when possible. It's especially therapeutic if I've spent long periods (like, weeks, not just hours or days) indoors or in gloomy weather. Whether this is entirely a chemical/mechanistic response is open to interpretation. I tend to think we're a bit more than the sum of our molecular reactions, but maybe that just makes me superstitious and irrational.

 

[TheBatman]

 

 

Aren't melanin and dopamine production somewhat connected? I remember something like that.

 

Neuromelanin is linked to dopamine. Melanin might be as well.

 

 

Yes, l-tyrosine is a precursor to both melanin and dopamine. In fact, there may be an effect of tanning which diverts some production of dopamine to produce melanin. http://www.dovepress...hp?fileID=22774   This would be consistent with the suggestion that tanning results in temporary increase of serotonin via competitive inhibition between dopamine and serotonin. 

 

Here is a discussion of the theoretical link between altitude and depression: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3819157/

The gist of this hypothesis is that lower oxygen levels at higher altitudes lead to a decrease in serotonin production. There is a further discussion of the possibility that dopamine-driving behavior (such as "extreme sports" and risk-taking) is correlated with altitude, which is supported by data but not yet proven as anything other than coincidental.

 

I personally find it extremely enjoyable and relaxing to lie in the sun for 10-20 minutes when possible. It's especially therapeutic if I've spent long periods (like, weeks, not just hours or days) indoors or in gloomy weather. Whether this is entirely a chemical/mechanistic response is open to interpretation. I tend to think we're a bit more than the sum of our molecular reactions, but maybe that just makes me superstitious and irrational.

 

 

You know, I do think altitude could be a major factor, and the lack of sunlight certainly doesn't help. I'm certainly a risk taker and I love extreme sports. I've almost died on skis more than a few times.

 

I'm also a bit stressed as of lately, but I don't think I would have as negative of a reaction to stress If my body weren't in such a sluggish state. 

[TheBatman]

According to this, endrophins are believed to cause the addiction:

http://www.cbsnews.c...ug-study-finds/

 

The problem with Vitamine D pils is that they are under dosed, in contrast to 10min tanning.

Afaik 1,000 IU vs 10,000 IU

 

This could also explain the better feeling

 

Evoked dopamine overflow is augmented in the striatum of calcitriol treated rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22133428

 

Calcitriol promotes augmented dopamine release in the lesioned striatum of 6-hydroxydopamine treated rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24858239

 

Calcitrol is a metabolite of Vitamin D3

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Calcitriol

 

Klonopin is a Benzo and Benzos could lead to perresistent health problems.

Just take a look for reports in longecity :

Benzo withdrawal 14 months off, still suffering with cognitive impairment

http://www.longecity...ive-impairment/

 

http://en.wikipedia....drawal_syndrome

Not addicted but i do find a benefit from it.

 

I did take a higher dose of d3 (around 9000IU) and noticed an improvement.

[BasicBiO]

I live at high altitude as well and I most certainly notice a huge increase in well-being when I can finally get out into the sun in the spring. Brain fog and depression go away and I often get a quasi-hypomanic burst of energy for a few weeks.

[Plasticperson]

I'm not surprised I go wild in the summer

[FW900]

I'm not surprised I go wild in the summer

 

I think that would have to do more with the heat. If these people seeing a decrease in their ADHD-Pi symptoms from tanning, I would think that would be near the opposite of 'going wild'.

[deeptrance]

 

I'm not surprised I go wild in the summer

 

I think that would have to do more with the heat. If these people seeing a decrease in their ADHD-Pi symptoms from tanning, I would think that would be near the opposite of 'going wild'.

 

 

Actually, increased dopaminergic activity would seem to help with ADHD, given the fact that most drugs for treating that condition are dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors.

[FW900]

 

 

I'm not surprised I go wild in the summer

 

I think that would have to do more with the heat. If these people seeing a decrease in their ADHD-Pi symptoms from tanning, I would think that would be near the opposite of 'going wild'.

 

 

Actually, increased dopaminergic activity would seem to help with ADHD, given the fact that most drugs for treating that condition are dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors.

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong but I do not understand why you said "actually". This doesn't contradict what I said. Stimulants used for treating ADHD increase dopamine or NE in specific regions, which usually lead to an increase in inhibitory control; the opposite of going wild. Likewise, (assuming) if tanning somehow alleviated ADHD symptoms, it wouldn't make sense that it would also make you go wild.

[deeptrance]

 

I'm not saying you're wrong but I do not understand why you said "actually". This doesn't contradict what I said. Stimulants used for treating ADHD increase dopamine or NE in specific regions, which usually lead to an increase in inhibitory control; the opposite of going wild. Likewise, (assuming) if tanning somehow alleviated ADHD symptoms, it wouldn't make sense that it would also make you go wild.

 

 

Ah, I see. I misinterpreted you. Actually (there's that word again!) it was less that I misinterpreted you, and more that I just failed to pay attention to the fact that "going wild" is the opposite of how ADHD meds should affect a person with that condition. Apparently my nootropic regimen needs tweaking!

[Hip]

@TheBatman

 

The reason your ADHD improves from tanning might be down to the alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone (alpha-MSH) that tanning releases. This alpha-MSH hormone is naturally secreted after sun exposure, and it activates the melanocytes in the skin to make melanin, which is what gives the tan.

 

However, independent to its tanning function, alpha-MSH is a potent anti-inflammatory, and brain inflammation has been linked to ADHD. So this alpha-MSH may be quelling the brain inflammation that may underpin your ADHD.

 

Interestingly enough, you can buy alpha-MSH quite cheaply as a injectable peptide, which people take to produce a nice tan without the risks linked to sun exposure.

 

So this injectable alpha-MSH might be able to treat your ADHD more safely than using tanning booths.

Edited by Hip, 22 January 2015 - 02:27 AM.

[TheBatman]

@TheBatman

 

The reason your ADHD improves from tanning might be down to the alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone (alpha-MSH) that tanning releases. This alpha-MSH hormone is naturally secreted after sun exposure, and it activates the melanocytes in the skin to make melanin, which is what gives the tan.

 

However, independent to its tanning function, alpha-MSH is a potent anti-inflammatory, and brain inflammation has been linked to ADHD. So this alpha-MSH may be quelling the brain inflammation that may underpin your ADHD.

 

Interestingly enough, you can buy alpha-MSH quite cheaply as a injectable peptide, which people take to produce a nice tan without the risks linked to sun exposure.

 

So this injectable alpha-MSH might be able to treat your ADHD more safely than using tanning booths.

I'll definitely look into this. That sounds very interesting, but also somewhat risky being a hormone and all.

 

When I started this thread, the possibilities I could think of for this anxiolytic/calming reaction were:

 

1. The light's effect on my eyes and the management of melatonin. Which I don't see as a possibility now since my eyes aren't even directly exposed while tanning. Also a 10,000 lux light box wasn't able to recreate the same effect)

I now think this hypothesis is a failed explanation completely.

 

2. I also thought it could be something that has to do with vitamin D being increased, and im still not sure if that's part of it or not, but taking vitamin D orally in doses of around 10,000IU makes a noticable improvement, but certainly isn't as powerful of an effect as tanning.

 

3. Melanin has something to do with this phenomenon whether directly or indirectly. Vague, but I think there's something here.

 

4. The altitude may have a part in all of this (perhaps the main reason behind some ADD symptoms entirely) but I don't think it has anything specifically to do with this mysterious tanning effect.

 

 

I'm 90% positive the main effects are coming from something related to melanin and this alpha-MSH you bring up may provide some answers on why tanning does this and how to recreate these effects in a different manner.

 

Edit: I gonna look more into the possibility of having symptoms that stem from brain inflammation. If anyone has any knowledge on the connection between ADD and brain inflammation, I'm all ears.

Edited by TheBatman, 22 January 2015 - 03:30 AM.

[TheBatman]

 

I'm not surprised I go wild in the summer

 

I think that would have to do more with the heat. If these people seeing a decrease in their ADHD-Pi symptoms from tanning, I would think that would be near the opposite of 'going wild'.

 

Maybe. Being predominately inattentive often comes with a sluggish amount of energy. Usually a reduction of symptoms does come with a burst of energy for me, and I find it makes me more calm but upbeat. perhaps that's what they meant by wild? IDK.

Edited by TheBatman, 22 January 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[ceridwen]

A lack of vitamin D triggers so many mental problems

[BasicBiO]

There are a number of biological mechanisms involved with sunlight exposure..many of which are mentioned in this thread. Sunlight entering the eye and even reaching the area of the pineal gland, set off a cascade of hormonal and nuerochemical responses that can effect mood, libido etc. Sunlight reaching the skin sets of multiple cascades of hormones, prostaglandins, neurotransmitters etc (no I don't have them memorized)...but it is a fascinating topic. I recall one study that concluding that suntanning is addictive because it causes a surge of endorphins. I believe it because I feel such a boost in mood and libido when I can finally get outside and tan.

 

 

 

 

[Hip]

 I gonna look more into the possibility of having symptoms that stem from brain inflammation. If anyone has any knowledge on the connection between ADD and brain inflammation, I'm all ears.

 

The following might be of interest on the brain inflammation (neuroinflammation) and ADHD link: 

 

The Link Between Brain Inflammation and Mental Health

 

Nutrition, immunological mechanisms and dietary immunomodulation in ADHD

 

Quite a few cognitive and mental symptoms or conditions are now being linked to inflammation and immune activation in the brain. The inflammatory activation of the immune system perturbs the functioning of the brain in various ways, such as increasing ROS, nitric oxide or glutamate in the brain.

 

What you could try as well is other supplements that are known to reduce brain inflammation. Turmeric 1000 mg twice daily is a good one (not to be confused with curcumin, which is found within turmeric, but turmeric has many other useful constituents). Turmeric is well known to reduce brain inflammation. You can buy a whole bag of turmeric powder very cheaply from Asian/Indian stores. 1000 mg is around a level teaspoon of turmeric powder.

 

 

 

I am in fact planning to take some alpha-MSH myself soon, to see if its potent anti-inflammatory effects will help my anxiety disorder and chronic fatigue syndrome, which are two conditions also associated with brain inflammation. I believe that Dr Richie Shoemaker has used alpha-MSH for his chronic fatigue syndrome patients (see here). It's also very commonly used by people who want a good tan. It makes you very brown within a week. I actually think that people should take a dose of alpha-MSH before they go on a beach vacation to a hot sunny place, as if they are already brown before they arrived, it would protect their skin from sun damage while on vacation.

 

If you buy some alpha-MSH peptide, I have read that you should avoid the premixed type, and instead go for the dry peptide that you have to reconstitute yourself just prior to injection with bacteriostatic water.  

Edited by Hip, 22 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.