21 replies to this topic

[SeccoTech]

So, a little relevant back ground about me....

 

I am 32 years old and have been suffering from PTSD (officially) since July 2007 (although I think I have had it since 2003). I've been on just about every prescription they could prescribe and none of them have helped - most of them actually made me want to roll over and die. After my discharge from the military, I couldn't hold a job, lived with my parents, and had no friends to speak of. This lasted almost 3 years. It was May 2010 when I finally decided the doctor's didn't have "my cure" and I took things into my own hands. Diet, exercise, even relocated to a place where I thought I would encounter less "triggers" (people mostly) and a bit more relaxing then the bustling city center I was in. 

 

[Note - I have never done any drugs in the past except for those prescribed by my doctor - except for alcohol.]

 

I eventually was able gain control of my symptoms without the need for medications. My drinking was and is still fairly heavy. Quite a few shots of scotch or bourbon straight up just about every night. Since relocating, exercising, eating right, living in the country, (still drinking) and some group therapy I have gotten married and had 3 kids, been able to hold a job and for the most part have been able to maintain social relationships. Although, I really only have 2 actual friends I trust enough or actually want to hang out with.

 

In November 2014, I suffered a huge break down. It wasn't my first since relocating in 2010, but this was by far the worst. I disappeared for 2 days and showed up back at my home, scaring the hell out of my kids and wife, unable to get myself to bed after passing out on the kitchen floor (all according to my wife). I don't remember anything from those two days. Since then I have been extremely exhausted, numb, detached, and really feel nothing. I've always been able to bite my tongue, so to speak, in situations where it was necessary. Now, I find myself insulting people, pissing people off by blurting out disrespectful remarks, and extremely shut down. I can't empathize with my children. I am sleeping on the couch most nights. My job is suffering big time since I can't find the motivation to do anything throughout the day. Lucky for me, the General Manager is an old family friend and has been very understanding, but I can tell his patience is wearing thin.

 

[I know many would say to seek professional help and I have. All but one doctor wanted to put me back on anti-depressants and the other one wanted to give me a tranq... wasn't doing that.]

 

I have been researching nootropics since the beginning of December. My first stack was L-theanine and caffeine (caffeine only in the morning in form of coffee). I have to say, it works, but I have to take upwards of 400mg of L-theanine twice a day (my second dose is without caffeine and around lunch time). Sometimes I will take another 600mg right before laying down at night. It calms me enough I can usually get some sleep. While it has kept an edge off, helped ease some tension, it wasn't enough. I ordered phenibut after reading about how it could help with PTSD. I tried normal doses of 500mg and 1g to no avail. Didn't feel anything. I laid off it for a week and then tried 2g. I thought I felt a sense of normalcy for about an hour. Again, didn't last, so I think it was just in my head - as if I wanted to feel it. Laid off another week and tried 2.5g. This time I slept for about 3 hours, but it was after my nightly 2-3 drinks (even though I knew I wasn't suppose to drink on it). My best sleep in months! I know it can be addicting, especially at higher doses, so I laid off again for about 5 days.

 

I had some L-theanine (about 400mg) one morning at about 8am with my coffee. It worked in the past and I absolutely needed a decent day (I had family coming over). Then I thought, why not add some phenibut with the l-theanine. So I took 2g of phenibut about 15 mins after the l-theanine. Amazing. I felt very relaxed. My thoughts stopped focusing on the things I couldn't change. I was able to play with my kids without being "Grumpy". Family visit went well, even though I didn't talk much (which is a good thing because normally I'd be very insulting and disrespectful). The only problem was I couldn't focus at all. All I wanted to do was chill and not think or talk. While that helped, it's not what I am looking for. I even got a "buzz" type feeling like I had just drank the perfect amount of alcohol without being drunk. 

 

I ordered a few nootropics in search of something that would help. I've read post after post about people's experiences, taking notes and comparing, cross referencing, and comparing again. I ordered the nootropics that appeared in most the posts/sites so I am guessing they are the most common.

Nootropics I ordered:

 

- Noopept

- Aniracetam

- NALT

- Alpha GPC

- 5-HTP

- L-theanine

 

Now for the reason behind this post, and if you made it this far, thank you for sticking with it!

 

I tired Aniracetam (250mg twice a day) and Alpha GPC (300mg once a day) with a nice fatty sausage and egg butter biscuit (and after lunch for the second Aniracetam dose). Taking the nootropics about 15 minutes after eating. I did this for a week and nothing. Well, not nothing... I felt spaced out more than usual. Kind of like I have been awake for 2 days straight.

Last week I started noopept. I heard extremely good results with this at 30mg per day (15mg twice a day). I did the first 3 days orally with a smoothie (flax seed, greek yogurt, bananas, kale, honey and almond milk). After 3 days I felt nothing, so I started doing it sublingually for the last 3 days.... 15mg twice a day... nothing. 

Today I did aniracetam, noopept, alpha GPC, caffeine (in form of coffee) in the morning and by lunch I was a zombie at my desk. After lunch I took noopept (15mg) and aniracetam (250mg) again. Completely exhausted, zoned out, detached and numb... pretty much normal. Usually coffee gives me a boost... hell, even when I drink a Monster I get some "zap" and wake up... but after an afternoon Monster... nothing.

Should I give them more time to work? I did read where aniracetam took 2 weeks for some people, but noopept I have read it only takes a few hours at most. Or maybe my brain is just so far gone nootropics need higher doses than normal or won't work at all?

 

Anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

Thank you for bearing through all that if you made it this far!

[3mp0w3r]

I find that I get a very minor stimulant effect from noopept.  Sunifiram is the same.  It doesn't really cure the brain fog and only minorly contributes to focus.  (Very minor effect).  The only thing so far that seems to help is modafanil but you can't take it every day.  

 

As far as caffeine...  Beyond 3 shots of espresso, I have negligible effect but it can keep me up at night if I drink anything after noon.  6hr half life so if you are like me and have multiple coffees through the day, it becomes more of a problem because the stimulant effect is minimal but the half life means at night you will have a hard time sleeping.

I am the same with monster.  I think a key thing you mentioned is desk work.  I am at a desk all day as well.  Blood pooling and inactivity from desk jobs has a pretty bad effect on energy for some people.  I am trying to figure out how to put 20min of exercise at lunch into the routine.  It is difficult though because you need to wear work clothes, and exercise makes you sweat so adding a change/shower into it limits you significantly.  Possibly walking might help.  The zombie feeling is incredibly frustrating.  I think in 30 years they will look back and say the way we work currently is not healthy and probably inefficient.  

 

I also wonder with PTSD if the original emotional experience is not as important as the disruption of sleep/wake cycles and neurotransmitter disruption that follows.   

Many shift workers have agitation/brain fog as well.  

 

Grumpiness is also linked to testosterone levels so that might be something to check if you haven't yet.  

 

[Razor444]

MDMA alongside psychotherapy has been reported to help PTSD.

[SeccoTech]

Interesting thing happened last night. I was getting ready to go to bed around midnight when I realized I had not eaten since my 1130am lunch. I didn't feel hungry, but I knew I should be eating. I decided I better at least have a granola bar or something. So I ate and laid down. Now this is where things get interesting... 

I remember laying there, but then my alarm was going off and it was 430am already. Normally I am laying there half-asleep, brain on overdrive, tossing to get comfortable and waiting for the alarm to go off. Not last night... I think I must of slept... I woke up feeling OK. Not as groggy. Not as pissed off at the world. Wasn't feeling great, but I wasn't feeling like my normal self either. I also had a sharp, slightly painful headache in the front of my head. That is gone now though. Lasted for about a hour after I woke up.

 

Yesterday morning I had NALT (300mg), 5-HTP (100mg), Noopept (15mg), Aniracetam (250mg), Alpha GPC (300mg) with my daily vitamins (stress complex of A, Bs, C, Zinc, Magnesium, spirulina powder, and Vitamin D supplement since the sun seems to hibernate this time of the year). This was all around 630am with coffee and a homemade egg, cheese, sausage biscuit. 

At lunch time (about 1130am) I took Noopept (15mg) and Aniracetam (250mg). 

 

Now I am at work with about 1.5 hours in, got caught up on 3 days of work, made progress on a project, not feeling completely like crap. Mind isn't quite clear and I'm not overly motivated and I do feel slightly tired, but it's like I know what I have to do and I'm doing it without really thinking about it.

So this morning I took the same regiment of NALT, 5-HTP, Noopept, Aniracetam and Alpha GPC. Not sure what to make of it just yet...

[SeccoTech]

MDMA alongside psychotherapy has been reported to help PTSD.

 

I've heard about this before. It came up in a group therapy session and was immediately disregarded by the VA representative. Unfortunately, here in the US, MDMA is highly illegal and these studies are so small and infrequent.

[Razor444]

 

MDMA alongside psychotherapy has been reported to help PTSD.

 

I've heard about this before. It came up in a group therapy session and was immediately disregarded by the VA representative. Unfortunately, here in the US, MDMA is highly illegal and these studies are so small and infrequent.

 

 

What did the VA representative say about aniracetam and noopept?
 

[zompy]

Your dose of aniracetam seems really low to me, i used to take 700-800mg twice a day.

[SeccoTech]

 

 

MDMA alongside psychotherapy has been reported to help PTSD.

 

I've heard about this before. It came up in a group therapy session and was immediately disregarded by the VA representative. Unfortunately, here in the US, MDMA is highly illegal and these studies are so small and infrequent.

 

 

What did the VA representative say about aniracetam and noopept?
 

 

 

I will have to ask her at my next session. She's a pusher for the anti-depressant/anxiety, cognitive and exposure therapy. I doubt she even knows what nootropics are. Her deal is we shouldn't be looking to fix our problems with illegal drugs - funny, because most anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds have far greater risks than most illegal drugs from what I have researched.

[ZHMike]

What effects are you looking for? memmory? energy? motivation?  how much do you drink every night?

[SeccoTech]

Your dose of aniracetam seems really low to me, i used to take 700-800mg twice a day.

 

Now that you mention it, I just went back through my notes and for some reason I crossed out 750mg and put 250mg... this could be my problem. At lunch I will try 750mg, see what happens and report back.

[SeccoTech]

What effects are you looking for? memmory? energy? motivation?  how much do you drink every night?

 

If I had to put down 3 or 4 things I am looking for, I would have to say energy/motivation - focus - anxiolytic - mood enhancing. 

 

I drink probably 300-350ml of scotch or bourbon each night. Sometimes as much as 400-500ml. 

[ZHMike]

Not that this is news to you, but your not going to have any energy/focus/motivation with that much scotch every night.  I used to be in a similar boat, not quite as much as you but prob like 3-4 drinks most nights, with  day off and at least 1 day of heavy binge drinking 10+ drinks. Right now I limit myself to about 8-9 drinks a week, with 3-4 days of no alcohol a week.  I feel wayyyy better than I used to.  Basically most things you are looking for came back to me. I really think if you cant curb your drinking on your own a rehab setting might be good.  

 

I would try by limiting yourself say like 350ml of scotch a night for 1 week, than go down by like 25-50 units a week. Do not try to stop cold turkey, you can get seizures from that. But if you could even reduce by 25 ml a night/week in 2 months you would be down to 150 a night in 2 months, than try to abstain completely 1 night, than 2 nights etc.

 

 

My stack right now is pretty simply Magnesium glycinate at bedtime, and caffeine/theanine every morning , 3-4 times a week I take about 300-600 mg of adrafinil - this gives me great energy and focus. I am working on cutting down drinking a little more, but seem to be stuck at this level. The last thing that helps for me is cardiovascular excessive,  this can help repair dopamine receptors and improve general well being, its not fun at first but I feel way better.

 

Good luck man, again I am sure you know this but your not gong to get any better with that much alcohol on a daily basis, 

[gamesguru]

MDMA alongside psychotherapy has been reported to help PTSD.

MDMA use is associated with long-term mood changes and cognitive deficits. And, as pointed out, evidence for its utility in psychotherapy is alarmingly sparse.
 

 

If I had to put down 3 or 4 things I am looking for, I would have to say energy/motivation - focus - anxiolytic - mood enhancing. 

 

I drink probably 300-350ml of scotch or bourbon each night. Sometimes as much as 400-500ml. 

So is binge drinking. And if you don't respond well to the noopept, aniracetam, GPC, or theanine, don't waste your money.

I would also recommend at once quitting 5-HTP and NALT, due to respective concerns over heart valve fibrosis and dopaminergic neurotoxicity.

 

For energy, focus, motivation, and anti-anxiety, I recommend two cups of premium sencha tea; high in caffeine, theanine, and polyphenols/catechins, it won't disappoint.

For mood enhancement, 12 oz. weekly of fish (obviously for their EPA & DHA. Try ones high in vitamin D [sardines & salmon] to kill two birds with one stone) and 30 mg daily of saffron (I tried it and found it was an effective, though very expensive, anti-depressant). 

 

And if you ever want something for memory, try Bacopa extract.

[StevesPetRat]

Shall we address the elephant in the room?

I was getting ready to go to bed around midnight... but then my alarm was going off and it was 430am already.

No amount of noots will help if you're averaging around 4 hours of shitty sleep a night. In my opinion, this must be addressed first.

[Razor444]

 

MDMA alongside psychotherapy has been reported to help PTSD.

MDMA use is associated with long-term mood changes and cognitive deficits. And, as pointed out, evidence for its utility in psychotherapy is alarmingly sparse.
 

 

That study relates to repeated or high-dose MDMA:

'Repeated or high-dose MDMA/ecstasy use has been associated with tolerance, depressive symptomatology, and persisting cognitive deficits, particularly in memory tests.'

 

Taking MDMA, or most any other substance, isn't without its risks. And MDMA's risks are often exaggerated.

[gamesguru]

So it's harmless if you only take one dose of it once? How about some evidence that one dose significantly improves the success rate of psychotherapy in reversing severe PTSD? Most patients underwent a minimum of three sessions with the drug, and the average street user a minimum of 20 sessions. Since nearly everyone takes it repeatedly, I feel the risks are being duly emphasized.  If it's not safe and effective, it's bad medicine.

 

Some substances are without appreciable risk: green tea or bacopa are apparently harmless at 10x the normal dose, and when used repeatedly at a normal dose. They are relatively benign substances, not appearing to easily damage organ systems, particularly the brain; if anything they appear healthy for the brain. MDMA is clearly bad for memory when taken repeatedly. What's more is there isn't conclusive evidence that it is an effective medicine! Safe? Probably not. Effective? Probably not. Bad? Probably!

Edited by dasheenster, 08 January 2015 - 07:11 PM.

[Razor444]

So it's harmless if you only take one dose of it once? How about some evidence that one dose significantly improves the success rate of psychotherapy in reversing severe PTSD? Most patients underwent a minimum of three sessions with the drug, and the average street user a minimum of 20 sessions. Since nearly everyone takes it repeatedly, I feel the risks are being duly emphasized.  If it's not safe and effective, it's bad medicine.

 

Some substances are without appreciable risk: green tea or bacopa are apparently harmless at 10x the normal dose, and when used repeatedly at a normal dose. They are relatively benign substances, not appearing to easily damage organ systems, particularly the brain; if anything they appear healthy for the brain. MDMA is clearly bad for memory when taken repeatedly. What's more is there isn't conclusive evidence that it is an effective medicine! Safe? Probably not. Effective? Probably not. Bad? Probably!

 

So it's harmless if you only take one dose of it once? How about some evidence that one dose significantly improves the success rate of psychotherapy in reversing severe PTSD?

 

 

One dose? That's an arbitrary number, and to demand evidence for one dose—versus three—doesn't make any sense. What's so special about one dose?

 

Most patients underwent a minimum of three sessions with the drug, and the average street user a minimum of 20 sessions. Since nearly everyone takes it repeatedly, I feel the risks are being duly emphasized.

 

 

Ecstasy is no more dangerous than horse riding.

 

And if you look at this 'harm caused by drugs chart', in the Economist, you'll see MDMA is one of the safest drugs being compared. Alcohol is top of the chart!

 

2.5 million people worldwide die from alcohol each year. That highlights the risks people are willing to take—for recreation. Yet 3 sessions of MDMA is dangerous... please!

 

And even without that statistic on alcohol, the 'harm caused by drugs charts' shows MDMA to be a lower risk drug than alcohol. Where are the warnings each time someone has a few drinking sessions? There are none! The dangers of alcohol are understated, and the dangers of MDMA are overstated.

 

Hypothetically: If there was a study which suggested 3 alcohol sessions (in total) could help PTSD, would there be warnings then? (Since alcohol is more harmful than MDMA). I think not.
 

 

Some substances are without appreciable risk: green tea or bacopa are apparently harmless at 10x the normal dose, and when used repeatedly at a normal dose. They are relatively benign substances, not appearing to easily damage organ systems, particularly the brain; if anything they appear healthy for the brain.

 

 

I didn't mean literally every substance. Water is quite safe, also! In this context, I was referring to substances that could make a real impact with PTSD.

 

MDMA is clearly bad for memory when taken repeatedly. What's more is there isn't conclusive evidence that it is an effective medicine! Safe? Probably not. Effective? Probably not. Bad? Probably!

 

 

With limited dosage the risks are relatively low.

 

I linked to some evidence initially. More studies need to be done for it to be 'conclusive', but there is some evidence. And given that three sessions of MDMA in a controlled environment has relatively low risk, its usage could well be justified in some circumstances.

[gamesguru]

 

One dose? That's an arbitrary number, and to demand evidence for one dose—versus three—doesn't make any sense. What's so special about one dose?

 

Ecstasy is no more dangerous than horse riding.

 

And if you look at this 'harm caused by drugs chart', in the Economist, you'll see MDMA is one of the safest drugs being compared. Alcohol is top of the chart!

 

2.5 million people worldwide die from alcohol each year. That highlights the risks people are willing to take—for recreation. Yet 3 sessions of MDMA is dangerous... please!

 

And even without that statistic on alcohol, the 'harm caused by drugs charts' shows MDMA to be a lower risk drug than alcohol. Where are the warnings each time someone has a few drinking sessions? There are none! The dangers of alcohol are understated, and the dangers of MDMA are overstated.

 

Hypothetically: If there was a study which suggested 3 alcohol sessions (in total) could help PTSD, would there be warnings then? (Since alcohol is more harmful than MDMA). I think not.
 

With limited dosage the risks are relatively low.

 

I linked to some evidence initially. More studies need to be done for it to be 'conclusive', but there is some evidence. And given that three sessions of MDMA in a controlled environment has relatively low risk, its usage could well be justified in some circumstances.

 

It's the most number of times one can dose MDMA without measureable damage. After two, three or more, the damage accumulates. So if MDMA can't cure PTSD in a single dose, it can't cure it safely.

 

The harm evaluation studies will obviously score alcohol as #1. Its use is widespread, it is highly addictive, it greatly impairs driving and common sense, and is easy to overdose on. None of these properties apply to psilocybin, which is consistently ranked last.

 

It would be interesting to look just at the 'impairment of mental functioning' metric, that would give a new perspective on individual harm. I suspect MDMA would be rated as more damaging than marijuana or alcohol, with alcohol less damaging than cocaine or meth.

 

You can't consider only deaths, obvious injuries, and harm to society when assessing a drug's harm, you must also consider hidden, asymptomatic organ damage too. With horse-riding this could come from the constant bouncing inducing some sort of trauma (pure speculation), with ecstasy I suspect it comes from peroxidation of serotonergic dendrites...asymptomatic, clinically silent damage, but still damage. With drugs like THC and LSD, which have produced few if any fatal overdoses, it's obvious  that harm could only come in this form of hidden damage. And sure enough, both were discovered to express unwanted genes in various brain regions, impairing mental functioning without causing death.

 

No, it must cure PTSD after one session...after two or three sessions serotonergic neurotoxicity accumulates to a significant degree.

 

Edited by dasheenster, 08 January 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[Razor444]

 

It's the most number of times one can dose MDMA without measureable damage. After two, three or more, the damage accumulates. So if MDMA can't cure PTSD in a single dose, it can't cure it safely.
 

 

No, it must cure PTSD after one session...after two or three sessions serotonergic neurotoxicity accumulates to a significant degree.

 

 

From the study which was referenced in the article I linked:

 

Using rigorous scientific methodology, we describe a potentially beneficial new therapeutic modality with support from solid empirical data. Following this promising first step, we now report very long-term outcome results in the original cohort, demonstrating a sustained benefit over time, with no cases of subsequent drug abuse and no reports of neurocognitive decline. These results indicate that there was a favorable long-term risk/benefit ratio for PTSD treatment with just a few doses of pure MDMA administered in a supportive setting, in conjunction with psychotherapy.

 

 

We're not talking about chronic use of MDMA, or usage at a rave. We're talking about three times in a controlled environment, which has shown in a similar situation to yielding 'no reports of neurocognitive decline', as per the study.

 

And ever if we were talking recreationally, it's less damaging than alcohol, as per the study done by Dr David Nutt.

 

 

It's the most number of times one can dose MDMA without measureable damage. After two, three or more, the damage accumulates.

 

Out of interest, do you have a source for this?

[gamesguru]

"Abstinent regular Ecstasy users often show: reduced cerebrospinal 5-HIAA, reduced density of 5-HT transporters, blunted response to a fenfluramine challenge, memory problems, higher cognitive deficits, various psychiatric disorders, altered appetite, and loss of sexual interest. [Significant reductions in these markers were not observed in one-time Ecstasy users.] Functional deficits may remain long after drug use has ceased and are consistent with serotonergic axonal loss in higher brain regions."

"Abstinent MDMA users had lower scores on personality measures of impulsivity (p = .004) and indirect hostility (p = .009)"

"We do, however, NOT agree with the authors' conclusion that a single oral dose of 1.7 mg/kg MDMA in humans is likely to cause damage to serotonergic neurons."

"In the present study, we treated C57Black mice chronically (25 days) with daily injections of MDMA (2.5 mg/kg)...Behavioral data showed a sensitization as measured by locomotor activity, which related to progressive and long-lasting EEG changes and neuronal degeneration within the hippocampus."

 

And the original: Altered Serotonin Innervation Patterns in the Forebrain of Monkeys Treated with (±)3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine Seven Years Previously: Factors Influencing Abnormal Recovery, with the famous stained serotonin nerves in figure 1.

Edited by dasheenster, 09 January 2015 - 12:08 AM.

[SeccoTech]

I want to thank everyone for their input. After talking to a few people who know much more than I do about noots and nutrition (health overall), I've decided the first step for me needs to be curbing my drinking (or hopefully kicking it altogether) and then hopefully the sleep cycle will begin to get back to normal as well in the process. Then I will go from there.

 

Thanks again!

 

 

[Brock]

I would say diet is the first place you should examine. It sounds like you have a good variety of nootropics although some more than others. In terms of your diet your brain is mostly fat and water, for synapses to work effectively keep it up with the flax for the healthy omega's but make sure they are hulled or ground since the husk is coated with indigestible fibre and will be left mostly whole if ingested in it's whole form (handy little feature from the seeds perspective). As for the nootropics you are using try switching to more calming options to better combat the PTSD. L-theanine like you mentioned would be your go to but if you're looking for energy try using acetyl-carnitine since it has the ability to break the blood brain barrier and will give you noticeable energy and clarity. I personally stack this with a half dose each of tyrosine and Acetly-carnitine. They will aid your mitochondria (cells) to use the energy you already have more effectively. 

 

Hope this gives you some clarity!