28 replies to this topic

[3mp0w3r]

Irregardless of the amount of sleep I get, I never "snap" out of bed.  I think biology has a large part to play.  Habits wont change the fact that even when I fall asleep on time and get 8+ hours of sleep I still feel rotten.  Something is messing with the quality of my sleep.  I suspect my prior shift work has disrupted some of the natural hormone cycles.  But even after being back to 9-5 for months, things are not getting better.  

 

I did a sleep study a year back.  It showed occasional disruptions but nothing severe.  I cut out alcohol and mostly drink my caffeine before noon.  

Either than "sleep hygeine", does anyone use supplements that improve quality of sleep?  Melatonin left me very groggy when I tried it.  At reduced doses it was less effective but still had difficulty getting out of bed.  I wondered about GH and other hormones.  Anyone have similar experience?

[Galaxyshock]

Cordyceps through adenosine receptors deepens sleep. Lavender / its essential oil can also improve sleep quality and it's good for relaxation.

 

I wouldn't mess with hormones. Then there's Phenibut and GHB which can give the most restful sleep of your life, yet these are very problematic drugs.

[3mp0w3r]

Cordyceps through adenosine receptors deepens sleep. Lavender / its essential oil can also improve sleep quality and it's good for relaxation.

 

I wouldn't mess with hormones. Then there's Phenibut and GHB which can give the most restful sleep of your life, yet these are very problematic drugs.

 

Was looking into Phenibut.  Sounds pretty variable.  5HT and melatonin are often mentioned.  There is also MK677 which gets mentioned occasionally.  

 

I just started looking into a gradually waking alarm clock using light.  
Phillips has a lines of alarm clocks what gradually brighten the room 20-30min before the alarm goes off.  Supposed to really help for grumpy morning people.  Only problem is that they are fairly expensive for what they do.  Trying to figure out if there are any alternatives out there.  If I owned my house I would have remote controlled blinds/blackout curtains that gradually opened in the morning.

[Flex]

Snoring could cause sleep apnea and therefore reducing blood oxigen levels

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Sleep_apnea

 

If it´s the case, then I would avoid any strong tranquilizers like Phenibut.

But I forgott the reason.. so tak it with a grain of salt.

 

I would nevertheless consult a Doc, because this could not be good in the longterm for the Brain&Body

Edited by Flex, 11 January 2015 - 01:09 AM.

[3mp0w3r]

I think I already mentioned that I had a sleep study.  Very mild sleep apnoea if any.  

[Dan1976]

You could try phosphatidylserine in the evening and pantethine in the morning. This could modulate your cortisol level - phosphatidylserine decreases cortisol (and has some cognitive health benefits), pantethine increases it (and has some lipid profile benefits).

[Blackkzeus]

You sound like me. Even after adequate amount of sleep, (8,9 hours) I still have a hard tim getting out of bed, and when I do, two to three hours later I feel lethargic/tired. I've tried several supplements that supposedly enhance sleep quality and did they not help with the sluggish lethargic feeling. So, I ruled out the  problem being poor sleep quality.  I suspect it's a dopamine or histamine problem. Whenever I take a supplement that increases dopamine or histamine that lethargic, half awake feeling goes away and I feel normal. What I"m looking to do is taking a chinese herb called Jiagoulan which supposedly regulates and restores the dopamine system. Also, exercise truly helps. I've been running about 2 miles a day for the past month and surprisingly it's increased my energy levels overall. 

[Galaxyshock]

Long-term usage of Reishi extract is associated with increased slow-wave sleep, and when ceasing the amount of SWS is even further increased. I bought 500 grams of dual-extracted Reishi and I'm going to take it for at least a couple of months, will report back.

[3mp0w3r]

Long-term usage of Reishi extract is associated with increased slow-wave sleep, and when ceasing the amount of SWS is even further increased. I bought 500 grams of dual-extracted Reishi and I'm going to take it for at least a couple of months, will report back.

 

I just ordered that a few days ago myself.  I also take 5HT but can't say I notice much of a difference.  I recently started taking rhodiola but not really for sleep.  

Melatonin gives me a massive groggy hangover the next day.  Even with lower doses I find the negatives outweigh any benefits.

Outside phenibut, are there any other supplements that people find a significant result from?

 

You sound like me. Even after adequate amount of sleep, (8,9 hours) I still have a hard tim getting out of bed, and when I do, two to three hours later I feel lethargic/tired. I've tried several supplements that supposedly enhance sleep quality and did they not help with the sluggish lethargic feeling. So, I ruled out the  problem being poor sleep quality.  I suspect it's a dopamine or histamine problem. Whenever I take a supplement that increases dopamine or histamine that lethargic, half awake feeling goes away and I feel normal. What I"m looking to do is taking a chinese herb called Jiagoulan which supposedly regulates and restores the dopamine system. Also, exercise truly helps. I've been running about 2 miles a day for the past month and surprisingly it's increased my energy levels overall. 

 

I will have to look into the Jiaogulan...  They describe it as the "immortality" herb.  But they also think rhinoceros horn will cure impotence...

 

Apparently rhodiola is supposed to improve stability and reuptake of dopamine.  I recently started taking this.  It seems to have a positive effect but does not cure my morning fatigue.

L-theanine is also supposed to increase dopamine.  I find it gives more of a kick than caffeine but it also upsets my gut.  I have mild gastritis and drink too much coffee already so think the l-theanine pushes me over the edge.

Macuna pruriens is supposed to actually contain l-dopa.  L-tyrosine is also supposed to increase it.  There are probably more supplements that I missed as well.  

 

The histamine side of things seems more confusing.  I get sneezing fits when I drink red wine (contains more histamine than white wine).  So I suspect that I would want to limit the my histamine since I am sensitive to it.  Of course there are a few threads on here mentioning that there are supplements that allegedly increase only one type of histamine.  I don't fully understand it yet myself.  

[Galaxyshock]

I don't like melatonin either, it gives me a headache and dull feeling the next day. Jiaogulan has that rejuvenating feeling, I like it a lot. Rhodiola is good anti-fatigue herb and moodlift, you should also notice more endorphins flowing when exercising. I probably wouldn't recommend Mucuna, it's more closer to a drug when standardized to L-DOPA. Although, using the whole herb in short term or occasionally as a tonic is alright I'd say, it's actually shown to restore endogenous dopa-levels and also affects serotonin. Cordyceps increases dopamine biosynthesis and has the sleep-enhancing effect I mentioned, you might wanna consider that. Also, Reishi decreases histamine release, you can take low doses during the day if you have problems with histamine sensitivity or allergies, and higher dose in the evening to promote sleep.

 

If you want to try a pharmaceutical compound for sleep, perhaps Gabapentin is an option:

http://www.longecity...ep-enhancement/

[3mp0w3r]

I don't like melatonin either, it gives me a headache and dull feeling the next day. Jiaogulan has that rejuvenating feeling, I like it a lot. Rhodiola is good anti-fatigue herb and moodlift, you should also notice more endorphins flowing when exercising. I probably wouldn't recommend Mucuna, it's more closer to a drug when standardized to L-DOPA. Although, using the whole herb in short term or occasionally as a tonic is alright I'd say, it's actually shown to restore endogenous dopa-levels and also affects serotonin. Cordyceps increases dopamine biosynthesis and has the sleep-enhancing effect I mentioned, you might wanna consider that. Also, Reishi decreases histamine release, you can take low doses during the day if you have problems with histamine sensitivity or allergies, and higher dose in the evening to promote sleep.

 

If you want to try a pharmaceutical compound for sleep, perhaps Gabapentin is an option:

http://www.longecity...ep-enhancement/

 

I was taking lyrica (pre-gabalin) previously for a herniated disc.  I ended up having a microdiscectomy.  Lyrica somewhat helped with the sleep but I wouldn't say it was amazing.  If you have pain, proper pain management at night is important.  Now my sciatica is gone so I am not taking lyrica any more.  It kind of gave me a zoned out feeling during the day.  I tried tramadol for a short while and it was even worse.  I would prefer to take supplements at this point even though some of them can have side effects of their own.  

 

There are some pretty messed up pictures of cordyceps fungi growing out of dead insects.  But I'll give it a shot :P.

[3mp0w3r]

Part of this process is that I go to bed fairly warm most nights and wake up cold (even in summer).  It seems really hard to get out of bed when you are cold.  I am going to try to hook up a light on a gradual timer and a heater.  Hopefully the reishi shows up soon.  I haven't ordered the cordyceps yet.

[the_apollo]

You could try phosphatidylserine in the evening and pantethine in the morning. This could modulate your cortisol level - phosphatidylserine decreases cortisol (and has some cognitive health benefits), pantethine increases it (and has some lipid profile benefits).

 

Would love a source for that claim, if you remember where you read that.

The only link between pantethine and cortisol i found was a short text on pubmed describing nothing but the header for a study in italian.

 

 

[Various hormonal parameters (ACTH, cortisol, somatotropic hormone and prolactin) following administration of a single high dose of pantethine in healthy subjects].

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3040046

[Dichotohmy]

OP,

 

Do you have the written report from your sleep study? In particular, AHI, TST, REM latency, and sleep stage data?

 

You really do need to be familar with what's going on with and during your own sleep architecture, even if it means recording yourself sleeping on video.

 

For instance, from my polysomnogram, I know that I have a 90% total sleep time, 3 hour REM latency, little REM sleep, frequent awakenings during REM/N1 sleep, little N3 sleep, and over 10/hour of spontaneous arousals or changes from deeper sleep stages to shallower ones.

 

Nothing works consistently for improving my sleep quality, but I have some ideas if I knew more about your sleep study.

Edited by Dichotohmy, 31 January 2015 - 02:29 AM.

[3mp0w3r]

Total dark  419min

Total sleep 342min

N1 51min

N2 178

N3 41

REM 71.5 (21%)

REM latency (min) 66.5

Sleep efficiency 81.6%

ESS 10

Arousals/hr 19.5

SPO2 baseline asleep 94% (96% awake)

Conclusion: minimal sleep disordered breathing present.

 

The nasal prongs and a few leads popped off at different times.  This was a take home sleep study that I did 2 years ago.  Going to do an official sleep study on site this week.  

Edited by 3mp0w3r, 31 January 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[deeptrance]

L-theanine is also supposed to increase dopamine.  I find it gives more of a kick than caffeine but it also upsets my gut.  I have mild gastritis and drink too much coffee already so think the l-theanine pushes me over the edge.

 It seems to have a positive effect but does not cure my morning fatigue.

Macuna pruriens is supposed to actually contain l-dopa.  L-tyrosine is also supposed to increase it.  There are probably more supplements that I missed as well.  

 

The histamine side of things seems more confusing.  I get sneezing fits when I drink red wine (contains more histamine than white wine).  So I suspect that I would want to limit the my histamine since I am sensitive to it.  Of course there are a few threads on here mentioning that there are supplements that allegedly increase only one type of histamine.  I don't fully understand it yet myself.  

 

 

I'm skeptical about some of what's quoted above.

 

First, coffee is an enormous source of gut problems for many people, whereas I've never heard of or seen anything, prior to your comment, to suggest any such problem due to l-theanine.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say that your coffee habit could be causing the bulk of your problems, everything from morning grogginess to gastritis. Yes, even as I type this it seems painfully obvious to me that this is a primary driver of your issues. 

 

Coffee causes gastritis, this is well known and you can find plenty of documentation of it. I used to be a coffee drinker until 3 years ago when my doctor diagnosed me with esophagitis and prescribed a proton pump inhibitor such as Prilosec. I knew I didn't want to take that because of what it would do to my digestion, so I decided to quit. I went cold turkey off of coffee and my esophagus and gastrointestinal issues cleared up immediately, like within 2 days. I haven't had a problem with that since.

 

In the intervening time, I've taken to consuming caffeine mixed with a few amino acids, which I take first thing in the morning. I keep it under my bed because I'm a slow waker too. I can control the dose of caffeine I get and I don't have to deal with the coffee probs or wait until I get out of bed to get my caffeine.

 

If you drink coffee throughout the day then it is guaranteed to mess up your sleep patterns. So if you aren't willing to give it up entirely then at least eliminating all but the breakfast cup would be advisable. 

 

Ideas about needing to increase dopamine are popular on this and other forums, and probably aren't true for most people, but if you do want to do that then l-theanine, tyrosine, and d,l-phenylalanine are good indirect methods, while high-dopa content Mucuna is a more direct method. Many people find tyrosine to be overly stimulating, and if that were the case for you then DLPA might be a better choice, along with l-theanine. I take theanine and DLPA every morning with my caffeine and amino acids. 

 

Your comment about red wine and histamine makes me skeptical as well. There are other chemicals such as certain tannins in red wine that some people are allergic to. But this is sort of off topic, other than the connection between histamine receptors and wakefulness.

 

I think adaptogens are a good option to try, and try it aggressively. I agree with suggestions for rhodiola and jiaogulan. These substances don't work in ways that you necessarily would notice, except over a long period of time. I also find it useful to take several of them in order to get variety of effects. Good choices for you to add to rhodiola and jiaogulan in the morning would include Eleuthero (Siberian ginseng) and schisandra. In the evening (with dinner, for example), you could take ashwagandha and bacopa. Over time I think you'd experience some balancing of your cortisol levels, along with other benefits such as enhanced immunity and stamina.

 

I read one study which found that taking 3 grams of glycine at bedtime led to improved sleep quality and a feeling of being more rested in the morning among study participants. So I take 3 grams of glycine every night. I've never noticed it being especially helpful and yet I've done this for 3 years. Glycine supposedly has other benefits, which I won't get into here.

Edited by deeptrance, 31 January 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[3mp0w3r]

@deeptrance

I think I stated that I am drinking too much coffee already.  I like theanine but it can just push it over the edge with the GIT symptoms.  The gastritis is under control by evening if I only stick to my morning coffees but one of the sites I work at has a nice espresso machine that is free and too easy to access.  Stopping coffee cold turkey would give me massive headaches.  (Tried a few months ago) It will be a difficult habit to break since it is part of my breakfast routine.  It is similar to wine in that respect.  Wine just goes with spaghetti or a nice steak etc.  The food associations make it difficult to cease entirely but it is mostly gone from my diet now.  I might go through a similar process with coffee but not sure if I can do it just yet.  It will require changing my breakfast foods and a few other habits.

 

I have jigaolan on the way and already have the rhodiola and ashwagandha.  

 

 

@Dichotohmy

I would be interested to hear what you think about the sleep study details.  I am not overweight but I plan to loose 5-10kg after my exams since there was a comment about possible mild sleep apnoea by the doc.  Unfortunately the nasal prongs came off during the night so I think that the portable home study was not a perfect representation. 

 

 

 

[Blackkzeus]

How is Rhodiola working for you?

[3mp0w3r]

How is Rhodiola working for you?

 

When I first started taking it, I felt a improvement in mood and energy the first few days.  Now I am not noticing much.  I am pretty skeptical about supplements that supposedly take weeks to have an effect.  It is also possible that the few days of improved mood had nothing to do with the supplement.  I am aware the research for many of these supplements is not there yet.  However, it isn't expensive and seems safe so I will continue to take it.  

[johnjuanb1]

Cordyceps through adenosine receptors deepens sleep. Lavender / its essential oil can also improve sleep quality and it's good for relaxation.

I wouldn't mess with hormones. Then there's Phenibut and GHB which can give the most restful sleep of your life, yet these are very problematic drugs.

Was looking into Phenibut. Sounds pretty variable. 5HT and melatonin are often mentioned. There is also MK677 which gets mentioned occasionally.

I just started looking into a gradually waking alarm clock using light.
Phillips has a lines of alarm clocks what gradually brighten the room 20-30min before the alarm goes off. Supposed to really help for grumpy morning people. Only problem is that they are fairly expensive for what they do. Trying to figure out if there are any alternatives out there. If I owned my house I would have remote controlled blinds/blackout curtains that gradually opened in the morning.

MK-677 releases a dozen low wave HGH pulses from only 25mg oral dose. This SARM will make you sleep very well, especially as your serum igf1 gradually increases from daily use.

[Gerrans]

 

How is Rhodiola working for you?

 

When I first started taking it, I felt a improvement in mood and energy the first few days.  Now I am not noticing much.  I am pretty skeptical about supplements that supposedly take weeks to have an effect.  It is also possible that the few days of improved mood had nothing to do with the supplement.  I am aware the research for many of these supplements is not there yet.  However, it isn't expensive and seems safe so I will continue to take it.  

 

 

It is no surprise that noticeable effects of adaptogens wear off. After all, they adapt things towards a normal level. So if you are fatigued, for example, rhodiola might reduce that fatigue, because fatigue is an unbalanced state. If you are not fatigued, there can be no reduction in fatigue.

 

Good quality rhodiola definitely works for me. But it is not something I take regularly--just when I have a busy or long day ahead. I do not find the effect tangibly noticeable, but at the end of the day I look back at how much I have done and realise the rhodiola had its effect. Not all brands work for me, though--so I expect there are different compositions. In my opinion, adaptogens are best used sparingly, as tonics.

[deeptrance]

 

How is Rhodiola working for you?

 

When I first started taking it, I felt a improvement in mood and energy the first few days.  Now I am not noticing much.  I am pretty skeptical about supplements that supposedly take weeks to have an effect.  It is also possible that the few days of improved mood had nothing to do with the supplement.  I am aware the research for many of these supplements is not there yet.  However, it isn't expensive and seems safe so I will continue to take it.  

 

 

I'm interested in getting an update on your experience with whatever you're currently using. Like, did the rhodiola do anything again for you after the effect had worn off, and have you tried taking other adaptogens with it? 

 

What I'm about to say is just an opinion and anecdote --- I've been using stuff like valerian, melatonin, baicalin, bacopa, and magnesium to help me settle down and sleep every night, for many years. The effect is still as robust today as it was 5 years ago. It seems like tolerance doesn't really happen with most of these, at least not for me.

 

I also occasionally take a low dose of clonidine, which diminishes norepinephrine release. It's a very safe drug if used properly, and its effectiveness doesn't seem to wane over time. It might be a good option for you if the herb/supplement route fails. I'm surprised it isn't more of a first-line-of-attack for sleep, as it has seems to be far less problematic than drugs that target GABA receptors and anti-cholinergics. Oh, but there's this thing called profit --- a 90-day supply of clonidine can be purchased for the cost of a cup of coffee. I get mine from the Indian distributor AllDayChemist. 

[3mp0w3r]

I use 5HT, magnesium, reishi but don't notice any difference.  I have a bottle of a sleep supplement with melatonin and valerian and a few other things but the melatonin always leaves me way too groggy the next day.  

I believe the bacopa I ordered is not bacopa since I ordered it from ebay.  It literally tastes like dirt.  I take ashwagandha during the day now.  I might try to get some bacopa from a different source.   I have some WPI and glycine on the way as well.  A big protein load before bed helps to fall asleep but I am uncertain if it does much for quality of sleep.  Glycine and Gaba amino acids have both been mentioned by different people.  Glycine will be tried first.  

 

Cordyceps was mentioned previously and I still haven't tried it.  

I also still need to buy a sunrise simulating alarm clock.  The amount they cost kind of pisses me off.  Over $200 for an alarm with a light that gradually turns on?  No way that technology should cost that much (they are cheaper outside Australia of course).  I attempted to use a few android apps with my tablet but they were all poorly written and the light never actually came on.  

 

I have this daily pattern where I become flat at around 4pm.  I then get home and try to wake up to do some study but often the tired and depleted feeling doesn't go away.   Then around 9 or 10 I get a second wind. 

The days I cycled to work I felt good.  I think part of the problem with sitting all day is that blood pools in the lower limbs and leaves you feeling flat.  I used to attempt to combat this with tons of caffeine.  But it doesn't really work so I have cut out the at work coffee and only have it with breakfast now. 

 

Clonidine is not something I had considered before.  

[Monkey_Boy]

I had very similar problems waking up and staying awake until I started supplementing with choline.

Not even a lot of choline, just the RDA for my age and weight.

I still have problems wanting to get up but once I am up, I don't have any of the brain fog I used to have.

Additionally, I am more alert during the day and so I've been able to cut way down on my caffeine intake.

 

[vendelin]

Rhodiola took at least a couple months to reach full effect for me, even though I've been taking high doses, so hang in there. If it does end up working for you, it's worth the wait. It doesn't really have much "noticable" effect like other things, it kind of sneaks up on you.. I had to sit down and think about where I was at a few months back to realize how much of an effect it was having on me. Waking up is only slightly easier, but I'm much more functional during the day.

 

Eventually it did stop working for me, but I believe that's because I was taking double doses daily for months on end. I took a month off, and I'm planning to cycle it from now on.

[Blackkzeus]

I had very similar problems waking up and staying awake until I started supplementing with choline.

Not even a lot of choline, just the RDA for my age and weight.

I still have problems wanting to get up but once I am up, I don't have any of the brain fog I used to have.

Additionally, I am more alert during the day and so I've been able to cut way down on my caffeine intake.

 

 

What kind of Choline? Regular Choline Bitrate or a more absorbable, stronger form such as CDP-choline? 

[3mp0w3r]

I don't think Choline is my issue.  I eat 3-4 eggs every day.  When I use choline supplements they make no difference at all.  I thought I needed them with the nootropics but I can't tell any difference with / without.  

 

I have a genetic problem with my collagen that complicates things.  

[Monkey_Boy]

 

I had very similar problems waking up and staying awake until I started supplementing with choline.

Not even a lot of choline, just the RDA for my age and weight.

I still have problems wanting to get up but once I am up, I don't have any of the brain fog I used to have.

Additionally, I am more alert during the day and so I've been able to cut way down on my caffeine intake.

 

 

What kind of Choline? Regular Choline Bitrate or a more absorbable, stronger form such as CDP-choline? 

 

 

Choline Bitartrate. 

 

The RDA for choline is something like 3.5mg/lb for an adult. So I need about 800mg of choline daily. Choline Bitartrate is 40 percent choline, so I take  2000mg of the bitartrate in divided doses. If I reduce the amount by more than 25% the brainfog returns.  Dietary choline like eggs or lechithin don't work at all for me as a substitute, I suspect because choline must be extracted from the phosphatidtyl form . In any case, I think eggs have an average of 100mg choline and I don't like eggs enough to eat 8 a day.

 

I have started taking ALCAR and it works very nicely indeed as long as I take enough choline.

 

Wikipedia on CDP-choline.

"The brain prefers to use choline to synthesize acetylcholine. This limits the amount of choline available to synthesize phosphatidylcholine. When the availability of choline is low or the need for acetylcholine increases, phospholipids containing choline can be catabolized from neuronal membranes. These phospholipids include sphingomyelin and phosphatidylcholine."

 

Since the brain preferentially uses choline to make acetylcholine, it must first break down the CDP-choline get to the choline. If it has enough choline for neurotransmitters then it can use the CDP-choline to make the stuff of memories like neuronal membranes. I might try CDP-choline or A-GPC or Lecithin or a few eggs but only in addition to my base amount of (cheaper) choline.

 

PS

I just realized that, "choline can be catabolized from neuronal membranes", gives a whole new meaning to shrinkage.

 

 

 

 

[archiloc]

Any updates?