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Permanent damage because of PEA "overdose"?

phenylethylamine pea overdose

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#1 Isabeau

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:19 PM


About a month ago, I inadvertently put a scoop of PEA HCL instead of one of my other supplements. I guess I was distracted and took the wrong bag. I could tell immediately because of the horrid taste, so I made myself vomit but too late as I soon started feeling the usual "onset", only much stronger. Talking proved difficult and my HBP felt like it was through the roof.

 

It lasted about 2 hours and slowly tapered off but since I feel what I can best describe as my body being disconnected from my mind, in a dream-like state, where things don't seem as real. For a week it was difficult to control my irritability and since I'm a bit more depressed and experience anhedonia. Edited to add that my memory isn't as good since and it's harder to concentrate.

 

I weighed a scoop and it's app. 345mg.

I take 2mg selegiline EOD so that seems like it's a lot. The most I ever took was 60mg.

 

Any theories ?

 

I guess making mistakes is a byproduct of messing with so many bags of powders, but the uncertainty of what happened because of my very limited knowledge of the substance scares me a little bit.

 

Any insight appreciated!

 


Edited by Isabeau, 12 January 2015 - 08:21 PM.

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#2 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 03:55 AM

345mg honestly isn't a lot, especially if you vomited. I've combined 1 gram with more selegiline. I think you'll be fine, don't sweat it.


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#3 Isabeau

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 05:09 AM

Yeah, I thought the same, I'm just surprised that a month after it still hasn't improved. Ok thanks for the reassurance!



#4 MadScientistX

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:13 PM

Don't stress. As mentioned before, 345mg is a very small dose.
It is commonly used in much larger doses (even 2g+) without long term damage.
The risk of excitotoxicity seems fairly low given the method of action.
PEA seems to provide a very quick and sharp increase/amplification of catecholamines (particularly dopamine and epinephrine/adrenaline) which is what you most likely experienced. This can indeed lead to a dissociative effect with your environment.
The main risk factor here seems to be elevated heart rate and blood pressure however thus would be a temporary side effect.
PEA is also rapidly deaminated by MAO with a half life of 5-10 mins.
I would suggest desensitization of receptors would occur with continual and regular use of large doses however this is unlikely after a single use.
In short don't sweat it ;)
P.s typing on mobile so excuse spelling
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#5 MadScientistX

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:22 PM

Just to add onto the above, your body and brain is good at re-regulating neurotransmitter levels and receptor sensitivity after cessation of intake of the offending chemical. After significant downregulation of receptors that is another story but you would need to be taking something much more addictive or ingesting over a longer term to have that affect.
Are you taking anything else that could be causing this?
Not suggesting this is the case, but also be aware placebo effect is very real, even in cases such as thinking my memory is not as good as it used to be or I am more irritable than normal etc. This can also lead to a downward spiral of these emotions.


Edited by MadScientistX, 13 January 2015 - 12:24 PM.

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#6 Galaxyshock

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 01:00 PM

Don't stress. As mentioned before, 345mg is a very small dose.
It is commonly used in much larger doses (even 2g+) without long term damage.
The risk of excitotoxicity seems fairly low given the method of action.

 

OP mentioned taking Selegiline, which potentiates PEA to massive degrees so that doses around 50mg or something are used with it because of the strong MAOB-inhibition. So damage might have occured to some degree.


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#7 Isabeau

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 06:16 PM

@MadScientistX thanks for the reply! I still take the selegiline but I also take Tianeptine EOD. That day I took 1G Creatine Monohydrate, 2G Beta Alanine and NALT.

Cannot rule out nocebo, although in this case I'd be surprised, as I was not worried for any long term problem (I am always amazed to read how plastic the brain is) and it actually took a while before I made the connection between the disconnected state and the PEA, then I backtracked to the irritability following the incident, etc.



#8 MadScientistX

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 10:37 PM

 

Don't stress. As mentioned before, 345mg is a very small dose.
It is commonly used in much larger doses (even 2g+) without long term damage.
The risk of excitotoxicity seems fairly low given the method of action.

 

OP mentioned taking Selegiline, which potentiates PEA to massive degrees so that doses around 50mg or something are used with it because of the strong MAOB-inhibition. So damage might have occured to some degree.

 

 

Thats not quite true.

 

Selegiline is a MAO-I, it will simply increase the time required to complete deamination of the PEA (due to the inhibition of MAO enzyme). It would not somehow increase the dosage of PEA. PEA is usually metabolised very quickly meaning you would reach a peak blood dosage rapidly regardless of MAO-I use or not.

You could simply expect the effect to last longer (perhaps up to 1-2 hours) with a MAO-I. Unless you were using some massive dose of PEA (significantly more than 345mg) or were regularly dosing, your brain, neurotransmitter levels and receptor sensitivity should still quickly return to baseline. With selegeline it would take slightly longer however to return to baseline.

As I said dont stress it, highly unlikely you have caused any damage whatsoever.

Do keep in mind what I said. in my original post.

 

 

Are you taking both Selegiline and Tianeptine daily ? :)

Need to be careful with such a combination those 2 chemicals as one is a Tricylic anti-depressant the other is both a MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitor.

You want to be careful of keeping seretonin levels in check. High level of seretonin and/or dopamine can also result in increased irritibility and impatience. Have experienced that first hand.

 

Is Beta-Alanine used for preworkouts days only?

 

Edit: you already answered by question above :)


Edited by MadScientistX, 13 January 2015 - 10:48 PM.

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#9 Isabeau

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 03:45 PM

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

 

I'm really surprised to read that Selegiline doesn't increase sensitivity to PEA. I am a neophyte in the world of synapses but from what I had read, it was needed to decrease dosage of PEA when on selegiline. As per example, when I received them, I first tried the PEA and to get a bit of energy from it, the dosage was around 500mg (albeit short lived). After a few weeks on the selegiline the dose was 50-60mg. I concede that it could be placebo, but I'd be really surprised.

 

To give further details about Selegiline and Tianeptine (EOD only goes so far :laugh:) I would say I take the former 2-3 times a week and the latter 4-5 (only once usually in the evening, not the regular 3 doses a day). Your opinion on this administration would be welcome.

 

I used to take Beta everyday, I was experimenting with intermittent fasting and seeing if I could keep my shape even when cutting down the gym time to once a week. Indeed it works! It's almost magic. I can't train at the moment so stopped the creatine and beta.



#10 Babychris

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:22 PM

I'm much more worried with my case of 2-Fa abuse on a 3 month period (Abuse is not the right word because it was low dose and not for a recreative purpose) but anyway this mysterious RC didn't help to repair my poor dopamine system.

 

Furthermore Pramiracetam leaved my brain in a bad shape (for sure it has made some damage) Modafinil was a no no for my blood vessels. 

 

I had a very stupid period in my life, but I don't think that this combo can do a long term harm, but you should be very very carefull on a immediate basis since it has increase my BP to 210 systolic which is incredibly high... I felt quite high it was very pleasant but absolutely not worth those risks...



#11 MadScientistX

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 01:12 PM

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

 

I'm really surprised to read that Selegiline doesn't increase sensitivity to PEA. I am a neophyte in the world of synapses but from what I had read, it was needed to decrease dosage of PEA when on selegiline. As per example, when I received them, I first tried the PEA and to get a bit of energy from it, the dosage was around 500mg (albeit short lived). After a few weeks on the selegiline the dose was 50-60mg. I concede that it could be placebo, but I'd be really surprised.

 

To give further details about Selegiline and Tianeptine (EOD only goes so far :laugh:) I would say I take the former 2-3 times a week and the latter 4-5 (only once usually in the evening, not the regular 3 doses a day). Your opinion on this administration would be welcome.

 

I used to take Beta everyday, I was experimenting with intermittent fasting and seeing if I could keep my shape even when cutting down the gym time to once a week. Indeed it works! It's almost magic. I can't train at the moment so stopped the creatine and beta.

 

No problem. Happy to help.

 

Selegiline shouldn't increase sensitivity to PEA per say. It will make PEA have a stronger effect on the person however this is because it is slowing down the metabolization of the PEA which is otherwise rapidly absorbed leading to a very short lived or unpronounced effect. To achieve a pronounced effect from PEA, people usually seem to take PEA in large enough doses to "tie up" your MAO enzymes or use a MAO inhibitor (such as selegiline) to slow the deamination/breakdown of PEA. Thus by using selegiline you would simply be slowing down the breakdown of the PEA in your system but not necessarily making yourself more sensitive to PEA itself.

 

Not much more I can say on the Selegiline and Tianeptine combo apart from what I already mentioned. Just be careful of overdoing the two in combination. This can lead to serious complications (seretonin syndrome). As mentioned high serotonin and/or dopamine levels also often results in a short temperament and irritability.

Personally, I would evaluate whether I really need those compounds and if so would only work with one at a time but thats just me as I find a naturalistic approach to my brain and mind health is much more efficient and healthier. Things like meditation and learning love and be loyal to oneself and be at one with the universe seem to work far better for me than various chemical influences I have tried. That however is too hippy for some :)

Btw Never stop anti-depressants cold turkey. May lead to nasty thoughts and sudden poor emotional wellbeing.

 

Also wouldnt suggest Beta-Alanine everyday. Agree its great for extra energy at the gym.

There has been some evidence that suggests it can cause a Taurine deficiency or a drop in your taurine intake levels due to the fact that it competes for the same transporter. Limited evidence however exists of such an effect in vivo.

See below from examine.com:

 

Taurine deficiency may not be a practical concern with conserved beta-alanine supplementation (with breaks, for cells to accumulate taurine), but excessive usage of beta-alanine and full-day dosing has not been studied in humans and has plausiblity for inducing a taurine deficiency

 

 

Also it does have some evidence that it alters your neurotransmitter levels in various regions of the brain. This can lead to unintended consequences (irritability etc.)

If you are concerned, cut it down to workout days or alternate days with Taurine.

 

Just wanted to add, you may be able to cut down to 1 day a week at the gym and maintain figure but cardio activity is important for healthy body, brain and mind function (definitely more than once a week).

 

Hope that helps


Edited by MadScientistX, 15 January 2015 - 01:16 PM.

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#12 Isabeau

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:28 PM

Sorry for not replying sonner, the last week was quite something and kept me away from this forum.

 

@Babychris, I'm really sorry to read of your troubles, it sounds terrible. I hope you are on the way to recovery!



#13 Isabeau

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:40 PM

 

Things like meditation and learning love and be loyal to oneself and be at one with the universe seem to work far better for me than various chemical influences I have tried. That however is too hippy for some :)

 

Not too hippy for me, if you ever have the time and inclination, you can read my (long) introduction post here, where I make similar claims and conclude that in my opinion, I think the first line of defense against depression and anxiety are exercise/healthy eating and meditation/cognitive restructuring, so we're on the same page :)

 

Just wanted to add, you may be able to cut down to 1 day a week at the gym and maintain figure but cardio activity is important for healthy body, brain and mind function (definitely more than once a week).

 

Although very active all my life, I'm currently suffering from pretty intense chronic pain and outside of tai-chi, exercising has become difficult, thus my experimenting to see how I can reduce it to a minimum without loosing too much muscle mass. I'm also doing intermittent fasting and cold thermogenesis, it's interesting!

 

Hope that helps

 

Yes it does indeed, thank you!



#14 bern004

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 02:48 PM

I experimented with PEA (without an MAOI) back in 2017. After experiencing a powerful, MDMA-like ecstasy, I noticed my heart rate going through the roof. I suddenly became ill-at-ease and ended up on the floor of my room with my heart beating through my chest at 200 bpm, I felt like I was going to explode. Tried to calm myself with some deep breathing. Ended up calling my girlfriend and telling her I was afraid I was going to have a stroke or heart attack.

I finally came down, but the next day I had a headache located at a precise point in the right side of my head. The headache lasted, off-and-on, for about 6 months. I've experimented with a plethora of substances in my lifetime but I'm never touching the stuff again.



#15 xEva

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 06:47 AM

345mg honestly isn't a lot, especially if you vomited. I've combined 1 gram with more selegiline. I think you'll be fine, don't sweat it.

 

 

PEA is also rapidly deaminated by MAO with a half life of 5-10 mins.

 

 

OP mentioned taking Selegiline, which potentiates PEA to massive degrees so that doses around 50mg or something are used with it because of the strong MAOB-inhibition. So damage might have occured to some degree.

 

 

I had exactly 2 experiences with PEA and both ran against a background of a steady low dose of selegiline (5mg one or twice a week).

 

In both cases I had a tremendous headache, in the back at the base of the scull, severe sweating, weakness and malaise that lasted almost two hours, during which time I had to be lying down not able to sit or stand. The headache in the back of my scull was so powerful that I had to keep kicking my legs on the ground as a distraction (I'm not prone to headaches at all, except due to hangover, which I have not had 'the pleasure' in years).

 

In both of these cases with PEA I was tremendously relieved and happy to be alive when it was finally over. I think I may belong to a genetic phenotype (actual SNPs unknown) which predisposes one to a coma and subsequent brain death which some kid had reportedly experienced on this combo of PEA+selegiline.

 

 I will never ever touch the stuff again, coz I'm scared by the 2 experiences I had. I'm not sure about the dosage now, except that it was on a smallish side, certainly the second time around, when I was especially cautious. No long-term consequences that I'm aware of (xcept fear of PEA which is still very strong).


Edited by xEva, 28 December 2018 - 07:00 AM.


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#16 BioHacker=Life

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:17 AM

I would try taking some phenibut. It counters the effects of pea and can help with some of the paws symptoms.


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