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#1 misterE

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 01:41 AM


The standard American diet is high in omega-6 polyunsaturated-fats. Below is an example of an western-diet and a healthier starch-based diet.

I used all info from Cron-O-Meter.

 

 

Western Diet

 

Breakfast

Bacon and eggs.

2 slices of toast with vegetable-spread

 

Snack

Peanuts from vending machine

 

Lunch

Fried chicken-strips with small fries from McDonalds

 

Dinner

Salad with ranch-dressing

Cheese Nachos with salami

 

 

Composition:

2500 Calories

64% Fat

20% Carbohydrate

17% Protein

 

Fat Composition

Total Fat Grams: 180

Polyunsaturated Fat Grams: 53

Omega-3 to Omega-6 Ratio: 1:14

 

 

 

Starch Diet

 

Breakfast

whole-wheat pasta

 

Lunch

White-rice and peas

 

Dinner

Lentils and steamed broccoli

 

 

Composition:

2500 Calories

79% Carbohydrate

17% Protein

4% Fat

 

 

Fat Composition

Total Fat Grams: 8

Polyunsaturated Fat Grams: 4.4

Omega-3 to Omega-6 Ratio: 1:3

 

 


Edited by misterE, 16 January 2015 - 01:45 AM.

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#2 drew_ab

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 02:10 AM

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.


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#3 misterE

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 03:20 AM

There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

 

Here are the problems I see in descending importance.

 

1. Lack of starch and fiber intake.

2. Excessive omega-6 intake.

3. Lack of vegetable intake.

4. Excessive calorie intake due to fat and sugar overconsumption.

5. The consumption of animal-protein in favor of plant-protein.

6. Excessive dietary-cholesterol intake.

7. Toxins in or on food.

 

 

Of course we also need plenty fresh-air, clean-water, exercise, sunshine and some fasting, which most Americans are also missing.


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#4 ForeverBulking

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 03:34 AM

Interesting. I am eating about 200 grams of fat right now. Most of my fat intake comes from olive oil, pistachios, hazelnuts, avocados, and eggs. My intake of Omega-6 is pretty high. Prior to this experimental diet, I was eating close to the same amount of fat, but mostly from coconut and red meat. I am three weeks into my high Omega-6 experiment and feel much better than on the high saturated fat diet. Do you think it is right to vilify Omega6, and put the blame on it as a major cause of the failing health in America? We have to take into consideration that most of Americans intake of Omega-6 is coming from seed oils and high intakes of processed food. I highly doubt they are overdosing on avocados and nuts.

 

That being said I would love to follow a high starch based diet, because I feel most of the evidence is in favor of it. I am also tired of eating oils and pounds of meat to gain weight and would love to try another more sensible, and cheaper, approach. However, I have a problem digesting FODMAPS, and that leaves me with a very limited diet of white potatoes and rice, I have tried a starch based diet of about 400 grams of carbs, with these two foods, but I was urinating all day, and I was getting swollen hands at night. 



#5 misterE

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 04:11 AM

 {1} Do you think it is right to vilify Omega6, and put the blame on it as a major cause of the failing health in America?

 

 {2} I highly doubt they are overdosing on avocados and nuts.

 

{3] However, I have a problem digesting FODMAPS,

 

{1} I think omega-6 in excessive amounts is probably one of the largest problems in the modern-diet.

 

{2} Well consider nuts and avocadoes as seasonal, from all of our evolution we only ate nuts and avocadoes in the fall. Now we eat it all year round. Animals that are not able to migrate, feast on nuts and seeds and soon after, their metabolism slows to a halt. Researchers believe that the high levels of omega-6 in nuts forces the animals to enter hibernation, because feeding hibernating-animals a strictly saturated-fat diet like coconut-oil and they are unable to enter hibernation, perhaps the body thinks it's down in the tropics, where there is no winter or need for hibernation.

 

{3} That would make it difficult to follow a starch diet. Perhaps there is an underlying cause that prevents you from digesting those sugars, rather than the sugars themselves.


Edited by misterE, 16 January 2015 - 04:16 AM.

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#6 pone11

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 06:14 AM

Nice data point MisterE.   The level of poly fat in processed foods is frightening, which is one reason I cut out ALL processed foods from my diet.

 

It would be really interesting to see how other diets add up, particularly if you are using whole foods, manage to find a grass-fed source for pork, beef, etc.

 

I have given up on finding a grass fed chicken.  I audited all the farms within about 75 miles of where I live, and what I discovered is the ones claiming to sell "organic" chickens actually take the chickens outside and give them large piles of grain to eat.   I think the only way to get a healthy chicken would be to raise your own!



#7 StevesPetRat

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 07:26 AM

Your "healthy" diet is remarkably low in phytonutrients. 2 servings of green veggies a day and that's it?! 60% or more of my 3000+ dietary calories may come from fat, but lately I've been eating a pound of fruit, 2 pounds of greens, and a pound of squash daily + a few smaller plant-based sides. I keep waiting for the out-of-control gluconeogenesis to give me diabetes, but my fasting blood sugar stubbornly refuses to go over 75 mg/dl (4.2 mmol/L) although my postprandial level spikes "dangerously" into the low 90's (low 5.'s). My body also now seemingly won't get fatter than I was at 16 -- a significant drop from 18 months ago (210 -> 165 lb / 95.5 -> 75 kg at a wide-shouldered 6'0" / 183 cm) with less exercise.

My suspicion is that the problem with the American diet isn't the macronutrient ratio per se but the deficit of micronutrients and prebiotics (and an abundance of... anti-biotics?? no, we need a word for prebiotics for pathogenic gut flora... pathobiotics?). Starch maybe gets around this as an ad hoc prebiotic, but so would greater plant intake with additional benefits. I hope to run an n=1 test of this hypothesis soon.
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#8 Kalliste

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 09:24 AM

Good luck convincing more than a small fraction of the population do eat something else unless a massive disaster forcibly removes this excess. I suspect we will get some kind of workable myostatin knockout treatment or something similar long before we convince people to stop eating like pigs.



#9 pone11

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Posted 16 January 2015 - 10:02 AM

Your "healthy" diet is remarkably low in phytonutrients. 2 servings of green veggies a day and that's it?! 60% or more of my 3000+ dietary calories may come from fat, but lately I've been eating a pound of fruit, 2 pounds of greens, and a pound of squash daily + a few smaller plant-based sides. I keep waiting for the out-of-control gluconeogenesis to give me diabetes, but my fasting blood sugar stubbornly refuses to go over 75 mg/dl (4.2 mmol/L) although my postprandial level spikes "dangerously" into the low 90's (low 5.'s). My body also now seemingly won't get fatter than I was at 16 -- a significant drop from 18 months ago (210 -> 165 lb / 95.5 -> 75 kg at a wide-shouldered 6'0" / 183 cm) with less exercise.

My suspicion is that the problem with the American diet isn't the macronutrient ratio per se but the deficit of micronutrients and prebiotics (and an abundance of... anti-biotics?? no, we need a word for prebiotics for pathogenic gut flora... pathobiotics?). Starch maybe gets around this as an ad hoc prebiotic, but so would greater plant intake with additional benefits. I hope to run an n=1 test of this hypothesis soon.

 

We are eating a very similar diet.   I am getting most of my calories from saturated and monounsaturated fat, and probably my Omega-6 has been creeping up to north of 6% because of all of the supplements I am taking but overall we are similar.

 

Like you, I am getting most of my simple carbs from fruit, which is about 50% glucose and 50% fructose.   And like you most of my remaining carbs are from veggies that are low carb.   I'm actually juicing an entire head of butter lettuce in the morning, because I want the high nitrates.   In evening, I am having a huge bowl of lettuce, mostly romaine and arugula (another super-high nitrate food).  

 

Do I understand that you are eating about 3.5 cups of fruit a day?   By volume, it seems like a LOT of fruit.   I guess in terms of calories, that works out about 70 grams of sugars, roughly half of that or 35 grams is fructose?   You split that over how many meals?   Which types of fruit?

 

Was this diet your response to being pre diabetic?  What inspired the various macronutrient choices?


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#10 StevesPetRat

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 09:13 PM

We are eating a very similar diet.   I am getting most of my calories from saturated and monounsaturated fat, and probably my Omega-6 has been creeping up to north of 6% because of all of the supplements I am taking but overall we are similar.

Like you, I am getting most of my simple carbs from fruit, which is about 50% glucose and 50% fructose.   And like you most of my remaining carbs are from veggies that are low carb.   I'm actually juicing an entire head of butter lettuce in the morning, because I want the high nitrates.   In evening, I am having a huge bowl of lettuce, mostly romaine and arugula (another super-high nitrate food).  
 
Do I understand that you are eating about 3.5 cups of fruit a day?   By volume, it seems like a LOT of fruit.   I guess in terms of calories, that works out about 70 grams of sugars, roughly half of that or 35 grams is fructose?   You split that over how many meals?   Which types of fruit?
 
Was this diet your response to being pre diabetic?  What inspired the various macronutrient choices?

Ha, we eat so close to the same diet, it's kinda funny (I eat 8 - 16 oz of arugula + butter lettuce daily if I can afford it, too) though I was getting a lot more omega 6 for a while (due to high lecithin consumption, mostly, which I have largely replaced with αGPC). Even 6% of total calories from omega 6 isn't terrible. I have some concerns over saturated fats (long chain) that I just wrote up in another thread.

 

I do eat that much fruit a day, but it's almost exclusively berries, in particular blueberries with a bit of raspberries or strawberries. Cronometer estimates 55 g sugar and other sources suggest it's a bit less than half fructose for those kinda fruits. I was thinking of buying bulk blueberry powder from, say, Nyles on eBay, but it turns out that would barely save me any money, given how cheap the wild berries are. I usually eat 80% of it at once in a smoothie, but when I start hitting the gym again (almost feeling up to it, it's been over a damned year), that'll get split into pre- and post-workout shakes.

 

Nah, I wasn't even pre-diabetic despite a rather poor diet. Previous blood sugar numbers were like 85 fasting, 115 post meal. Not ideal but hardly bad. Rather, I had a bunch of increasingly difficult physical and mental health problems and I finally decided enough was enough. The macro ratios are sort of trial and error. Too much carb makes me feel "inflamed" and I can't seem to do full ketosis either, so here we are. Going to try to do several different ratios over the coming year, though.



#11 pone11

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 10:58 PM

 

We are eating a very similar diet.   I am getting most of my calories from saturated and monounsaturated fat, and probably my Omega-6 has been creeping up to north of 6% because of all of the supplements I am taking but overall we are similar.

Like you, I am getting most of my simple carbs from fruit, which is about 50% glucose and 50% fructose.   And like you most of my remaining carbs are from veggies that are low carb.   I'm actually juicing an entire head of butter lettuce in the morning, because I want the high nitrates.   In evening, I am having a huge bowl of lettuce, mostly romaine and arugula (another super-high nitrate food).  
 
Do I understand that you are eating about 3.5 cups of fruit a day?   By volume, it seems like a LOT of fruit.   I guess in terms of calories, that works out about 70 grams of sugars, roughly half of that or 35 grams is fructose?   You split that over how many meals?   Which types of fruit?
 
Was this diet your response to being pre diabetic?  What inspired the various macronutrient choices?

Ha, we eat so close to the same diet, it's kinda funny (I eat 8 - 16 oz of arugula + butter lettuce daily if I can afford it, too) though I was getting a lot more omega 6 for a while (due to high lecithin consumption, mostly, which I have largely replaced with αGPC). Even 6% of total calories from omega 6 isn't terrible. I have some concerns over saturated fats (long chain) that I just wrote up in another thread.

 

I do eat that much fruit a day, but it's almost exclusively berries, in particular blueberries with a bit of raspberries or strawberries. Cronometer estimates 55 g sugar and other sources suggest it's a bit less than half fructose for those kinda fruits. I was thinking of buying bulk blueberry powder from, say, Nyles on eBay, but it turns out that would barely save me any money, given how cheap the wild berries are. I usually eat 80% of it at once in a smoothie, but when I start hitting the gym again (almost feeling up to it, it's been over a damned year), that'll get split into pre- and post-workout shakes.

 

Nah, I wasn't even pre-diabetic despite a rather poor diet. Previous blood sugar numbers were like 85 fasting, 115 post meal. Not ideal but hardly bad. Rather, I had a bunch of increasingly difficult physical and mental health problems and I finally decided enough was enough. The macro ratios are sort of trial and error. Too much carb makes me feel "inflamed" and I can't seem to do full ketosis either, so here we are. Going to try to do several different ratios over the coming year, though.

 

 

I am pretty confused on the entire phospholipids subject.   Like you I wanted to switch to glycerophosphocholine (GPC), which studies show is better absorbed by the brain, and which removes the fatty acid tails.    I have not read deeply on the subject, but I'm not convinced yet that GPC is a complete substitute for the phospholipid complex that binds GPC to fatty acids.

 

Further complicating that, there is the claim by BodyBio that if you pack phosphatidylcholine in a fatty triglyceride, it becomes unavailable biologically:

https://www.youtube....Fe_O9ps88#t=795

 

The form that is packed in lecithin:

http://www.amazon.co...h/dp/B00DILLV0G

 

costs less than half the form that has the fatty triglyceride of the lecithin removed:

http://www.amazon.co...z/dp/B0027JU9A8

 

I found evidence that the so-called "absorbable" form actually breaks down in digestion:

https://www.drugs.co...oncentrate.html

 

And making it more complicated still, I found a study that suggests that GPC in presence of amyloid beta of alzheimer's makes the disease worse:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....act erythrocyte

 

So who knows what to believe.   I am taking both the PhosChol product and GPC.   They make me feel good, and jury is still out on whether they are healthful.


Edited by pone11, 17 January 2015 - 11:06 PM.


#12 pone11

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 11:22 PM

 

We are eating a very similar diet.   I am getting most of my calories from saturated and monounsaturated fat, and probably my Omega-6 has been creeping up to north of 6% because of all of the supplements I am taking but overall we are similar.

Like you, I am getting most of my simple carbs from fruit, which is about 50% glucose and 50% fructose.   And like you most of my remaining carbs are from veggies that are low carb.   I'm actually juicing an entire head of butter lettuce in the morning, because I want the high nitrates.   In evening, I am having a huge bowl of lettuce, mostly romaine and arugula (another super-high nitrate food).  
 
Do I understand that you are eating about 3.5 cups of fruit a day?   By volume, it seems like a LOT of fruit.   I guess in terms of calories, that works out about 70 grams of sugars, roughly half of that or 35 grams is fructose?   You split that over how many meals?   Which types of fruit?
 
Was this diet your response to being pre diabetic?  What inspired the various macronutrient choices?

I do eat that much fruit a day, but it's almost exclusively berries, in particular blueberries with a bit of raspberries or strawberries. Cronometer estimates 55 g sugar and other sources suggest it's a bit less than half fructose for those kinda fruits. I was thinking of buying bulk blueberry powder from, say, Nyles on eBay, but it turns out that would barely save me any money, given how cheap the wild berries are. I usually eat 80% of it at once in a smoothie, but when I start hitting the gym again (almost feeling up to it, it's been over a damned year), that'll get split into pre- and post-workout shakes.

 

 

So if you are eating 3 cups of berries in a single sitting, that is about $6 to $10 per meal?   You have a pretty big monthly berry budget. :)


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#13 StevesPetRat

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Posted 17 January 2015 - 11:55 PM

So if you are eating 3 cups of berries in a single sitting, that is about $6 to $10 per meal?   You have a pretty big monthly berry budget. :)

$3.49 for 16 oz pesticide free wild berries  :cool: Consuming the equivalent amount of extract would be about $2. 



#14 TheFountain

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 12:23 AM

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

And one of the main things wrong with it is "vegetable spread" "ranch dressing" and "nacho cheese sauce". Guarantee that is where the majority of those omega 6 PUFA come from in his example. 



#15 JohnD60

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 01:20 AM

Straw man argument. My current diet does not include any greens or grains and my n6:n3 ratio is close to 1:1, (I eat cold water fish and 100% grass fed beef everyday)


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#16 pone11

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 08:57 AM

 

So if you are eating 3 cups of berries in a single sitting, that is about $6 to $10 per meal?   You have a pretty big monthly berry budget. :)

$3.49 for 16 oz pesticide free wild berries  :cool: Consuming the equivalent amount of extract would be about $2. 

 

But you are eating about 3.5 cups a day, so roughly almost two of those containers?   Or are you saying you limit daily consumption to 16 ounces?



#17 pone11

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 09:04 AM

 

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

And one of the main things wrong with it is "vegetable spread" "ranch dressing" and "nacho cheese sauce". Guarantee that is where the majority of those omega 6 PUFA come from in his example. 

 

 

The bacon is loaded with omega-6 due to feeding the pigs with grains.

 

The eggs have some omega-6 because factory chickens are raised on grain as a primary foodsource.  

 

The toast is from bread cooked in omega-6 fats.   They do this as a "heart-healthy" alternative to using butter.

 

The peanuts are a fairly high poly-fat nut.

 

The fried chicken strips are Omega-6 from hell, since the fryer is using seed oils (all polyunsaturated, all omega-6).  Same comment applies to potatoe fries and any other fried food.

 

And the processed foods industry can claim total innocence here because the governments dietary guideline is for you to get 25% to 35% of your dietary intake from polyunsaturated fats!


Edited by pone11, 18 January 2015 - 09:05 AM.

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#18 sensei

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 12:46 AM

Starch Diet

 

Breakfast

whole-wheat pasta

 

Lunch

White-rice and peas

 

Dinner

Lentils and steamed broccoli

 

 

Composition:

2500 Calories

79% Carbohydrate

 

2000 calories of pasta and rice =

 

6 cups of  cooked pasta (174 calories per cup)

 

and 5 cups of cooked rice (216 calories per cup)

 

Really, Are you serious ?


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#19 drew_ab

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:04 AM

 

Starch Diet

 

Breakfast

whole-wheat pasta

 

Lunch

White-rice and peas

 

Dinner

Lentils and steamed broccoli

 

 

Composition:

2500 Calories

79% Carbohydrate

 

2000 calories of pasta and rice =

 

6 cups of  cooked pasta (174 calories per cup)

 

and 5 cups of cooked rice (216 calories per cup)

 

Really, Are you serious ?

 

 

Are you saying this is a large quantity of food?



#20 gamesguru

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:07 AM

Are you saying this is a large quantity of food?

I think he's saying it's a large quantity of starch/carbs.



#21 misterE

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:14 AM

 

 

Starch Diet

 

Breakfast

whole-wheat pasta

 

Lunch

White-rice and peas

 

Dinner

Lentils and steamed broccoli

 

 

Composition:

2500 Calories

79% Carbohydrate

 

2000 calories of pasta and rice =

 

6 cups of  cooked pasta (174 calories per cup)

 

and 5 cups of cooked rice (216 calories per cup)

 

Really, Are you serious ?

 

 

Are you saying this is a large quantity of food?

 

 

 

 

Yes it is a large quantity of food. Starch isn't very calorie-dense, compared to fatty-foods like the Western-diet is filled with.

 

I used: 2 cups of uncooked whole-grain pasta

1 cup of uncooked white-rice and 2 cups of frozen peas

2 cups of uncooked lentils and 3 raw broccoli's  

 



#22 sensei

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:16 AM

 

 

Starch Diet

 

Breakfast

whole-wheat pasta

 

Lunch

White-rice and peas

 

Dinner

Lentils and steamed broccoli

 

 

Composition:

2500 Calories

79% Carbohydrate

 

2000 calories of pasta and rice =

 

6 cups of  cooked pasta (174 calories per cup)

 

and 5 cups of cooked rice (216 calories per cup)

 

Really, Are you serious ?

 

 

Are you saying this is a large quantity of food?

 

 

Yes.

 

And the rise in diabetes in the country coincided with the idiocy of the food pyramid telling people lots of starches and grains are a good thing.

 

This diet is very likely to GIVE you metabolic syndrome and diabetes. Not to mention it doesn't have enough protein to even maintain muscle tone for a normal human.

 

If you weigh 170 lbs you need 70 grams of protein just to maintain your muscle mass, muscle tone, and cellular maintenance -- if you are sedentary.

 

A moderately active 170 lb person would need 100-120 grams -- this diet provides 106, and since it only provides lentils and peas it fails to provide all the essential aminos.

 

And 100 calories from fat is just plain unhealthy.

 

 

 

 


Edited by sensei, 20 January 2015 - 03:20 AM.

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#23 misterE

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:29 AM

But Americans aren't eating a starch-based diet, we're eating starch in the form of processed-food and pastries also loaded with omega-6 oils. How many people do you know that eat boiled grains and steamed vegetables for supper? Plus if you look at the dietary trend of America since 1909, you will see that consumption of grains, flour, beans and boiled-potatoes were much higher back then. Now we eat breakfast-cereal, flour mix with omega-6 oils, fried-potatoes and now Americans don't really eat much beans anymore. If they do, its canned pork and beans or something like that.


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#24 TheFountain

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 03:37 AM

 

 

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

And one of the main things wrong with it is "vegetable spread" "ranch dressing" and "nacho cheese sauce". Guarantee that is where the majority of those omega 6 PUFA come from in his example. 

 

 

The bacon is loaded with omega-6 due to feeding the pigs with grains.

 

The eggs have some omega-6 because factory chickens are raised on grain as a primary foodsource.  

 

The toast is from bread cooked in omega-6 fats.   They do this as a "heart-healthy" alternative to using butter.

 

The peanuts are a fairly high poly-fat nut.

 

The fried chicken strips are Omega-6 from hell, since the fryer is using seed oils (all polyunsaturated, all omega-6).  Same comment applies to potatoe fries and any other fried food.

 

And the processed foods industry can claim total innocence here because the governments dietary guideline is for you to get 25% to 35% of your dietary intake from polyunsaturated fats!

 

It's my point. 

 

It's not the food, such as the Chicken or bacon, but the way it is cooked or raised. 


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#25 sensei

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 04:39 AM

But Americans aren't eating a starch-based diet, we're eating starch in the form of processed-food and pastries also loaded with omega-6 oils. How many people do you know that eat boiled grains and steamed vegetables for supper? Plus if you look at the dietary trend of America since 1909, you will see that consumption of grains, flour, beans and boiled-potatoes were much higher back then. Now we eat breakfast-cereal, flour mix with omega-6 oils, fried-potatoes and now Americans don't really eat much beans anymore. If they do, its canned pork and beans or something like that.

 

 

Then why is your starch diet heavy on refined starches -- pasta and white rice?

 

I see absolutely no fruit

 

 

The diet you proposed is horrible.

 

Natural fats are good, even animal fats.

 

Non-fruit digestible carbohydrates are for the most part not really that good for you, and they are not needed in the diet.

 

In fact, the human body has no need for carbohydrates at all.

 

The brain will run just fine on ketone bodies, as will the muscles.  Your liver will make all the glucose you need.

 

High carb low fat diets are bad for you, very very bad.  They make you fat, raise triglyceride levels, and cause metabolic syndrome.


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#26 StevesPetRat

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 09:23 AM

In fact, the human body has no need for carbohydrates at all.
 
The brain will run just fine on ketone bodies, as will the muscles.  Your liver will make all the glucose you need.

Well, the gut flora does need some fermentable carbs for optimal composition. And the gut definitely needs butyrate, which is all but impossible to get in sufficient quantity from dietary sources alone.

Still willing to give the ultra-low fat diet the benefit of the doubt based on possible microbiome modulation, just not that particular ultra-low fat diet. And yeah, it's likely not to work for some.

#27 pone11

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:10 AM

 

But Americans aren't eating a starch-based diet, we're eating starch in the form of processed-food and pastries also loaded with omega-6 oils. How many people do you know that eat boiled grains and steamed vegetables for supper? Plus if you look at the dietary trend of America since 1909, you will see that consumption of grains, flour, beans and boiled-potatoes were much higher back then. Now we eat breakfast-cereal, flour mix with omega-6 oils, fried-potatoes and now Americans don't really eat much beans anymore. If they do, its canned pork and beans or something like that.

 

 

Then why is your starch diet heavy on refined starches -- pasta and white rice?

 

I see absolutely no fruit

 

 

The diet you proposed is horrible.

 

Natural fats are good, even animal fats.

 

Non-fruit digestible carbohydrates are for the most part not really that good for you, and they are not needed in the diet.

 

In fact, the human body has no need for carbohydrates at all.

 

The brain will run just fine on ketone bodies, as will the muscles.  Your liver will make all the glucose you need.

 

High carb low fat diets are bad for you, very very bad.  They make you fat, raise triglyceride levels, and cause metabolic syndrome.

 

 

I want to defer getting into any argument with anyone about high carb versus low carb.   I am on Sensei's side of that issue, but let's defer that to another day.   But I think Sensei hits on a key idea here that very few people understand, even if you want to be a high carb advocate.

 

Not all carbs are created equal.   The work done in support of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) to fight Crohn's Disease, Ulcerative Colitis, and other forms of IBD has very clearly shown that monosaccharides (both glucose and fructose) rapidly absorb in the small intestine and do not survive to feed bad bacteria that produce endotoxins in the colon.   Fruit contains glucose and fructose, and I used to think that eating fruit was equivalent to eating sucrose, but it turns out that they are not the same thing.   SOME kinds of fruit - particularly berries - have about equal amounts of glucose and fructose stored as monosaccharides, NOT stored as sucrose.   Other types of fruit are high in sucrose (e.g., bananas, mangoes, and many of the sweeter types of fruit). If you get your carbs from berries and other sources that are simple monosaccharides, you starve the bad bacteria that create so many intestinal issues for so many people.

 

I hesitate to raise the point because all of the studies that look at these issues are bad.  Like most diet studies, they fail to control all the variables well.   The state of research on the SCD diet was summarized in this 2007 article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1925010/

 

"The exact role of sucrose pathogenesis and progression of IBD has not yet been fully elucidated. Some believe that unrefined carbohydrates, starches and sucrose may play a role in dysbiosis (abnormal alteration of the colonic bacterial flora). This thinking is evident in a popular diet for IBD, Elaine Gottschall's specific carbohydrate diet.

...

Although there have not been any controlled studies evaluating the effectiveness of this diet in patients with IBD, there is no shortage of testimonials proclaiming long-term improvement and remission (http://www.breakingt...testimonies.htm)."

 

The problem with sucrose is that to break this disaccharide into the monosaccharides glucose and fructose requires an enzymes sucrase.   For whatever reason, some people lack enough of that enzyme to break down all of the sucrose.  So, for those people, eating the monosaccharides does not produce the same result as eating sucrose.

 

This insight about monosaccharides allowed me to remodel my diet with pretty amazing effects.   Instead of eating starches, I now have for breakfast a smoothie with berries and I throw in some veggies (butter lettuce) that I want for nitrates (that's a separate story).   Taking the sugars as monosaccharides instead of as sucrose or as starch had the following results for me, almost immediately:

 

1) All of my intestinal symptoms (gas and indigestion) simply disappeared, within about two weeks

 

2) My glucose metabolism improved dramatically, immediately.  Instead of getting glucose at 140+ one hour after eating a starchy carb meal, I now rarely see it go above 110, and there many breakfasts where it doesn't go above 95.  As a prediabetic, those were impressive results.

 

3) I instantly started to feel better, dramatically better.  The energy I derived from food stayed constant instead of causing me to get sleepy or leaving me feeling unwell.

 

Only about 1/2 of 1% of the US population has the more severe IBD like Crohn's or Ulcerative Colitis.  But some estimates of the more benign irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) are that it may affect as much as 20% of the population.   So, even if you are pro carb, shaping the type of carbohydrates you eat to make them rapidly digestible and unavailable to bad bacteria can have dramatic health impacts.   

 

I acknowledge some people do well on starchy carbs.   Those people are usually 25 years old and very fit. :)   The only point I want acknowledged is that disaccharides like sucrose and polysaccharides like starch can create digestive issues for some non trivial percentage of the population.   So even if you want to take in a lot of carbohydrate, taking the time to shape the amount of it that comes from monosaccharides can have a big impact on health, completely separate from issues about what percentage of caloric intake is from carbs overall.


Edited by pone11, 20 January 2015 - 10:18 AM.

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#28 pone11

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:25 AM

 

 

 

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

And one of the main things wrong with it is "vegetable spread" "ranch dressing" and "nacho cheese sauce". Guarantee that is where the majority of those omega 6 PUFA come from in his example. 

 

 

The bacon is loaded with omega-6 due to feeding the pigs with grains.

 

The eggs have some omega-6 because factory chickens are raised on grain as a primary foodsource.  

 

The toast is from bread cooked in omega-6 fats.   They do this as a "heart-healthy" alternative to using butter.

 

The peanuts are a fairly high poly-fat nut.

 

The fried chicken strips are Omega-6 from hell, since the fryer is using seed oils (all polyunsaturated, all omega-6).  Same comment applies to potatoe fries and any other fried food.

 

And the processed foods industry can claim total innocence here because the governments dietary guideline is for you to get 25% to 35% of your dietary intake from polyunsaturated fats!

 

It's my point. 

 

It's not the food, such as the Chicken or bacon, but the way it is cooked or raised. 

 

 

I agree, but:

 

1) Unlike beef, which has lots of grassfed sources, you will never find a grassfed chicken.   The fact is that chicken farmers claim to be organic but they aren't.  They put the chickens out to feed on grass and then dump big piles of grain for them to eat.   I audited every organic chicken farmer within 75 miles of my major metro area and not one chicken farmer who claimed to raise "organic pasteured" chickens passed my screening.   Every single one of them was supplementing 50% of calories or more from grain.   It's a very serious problem, and the advertising in this market is extremely misleading.

 

2) Grassfed pork is very very very hard to find.   When you finally find a person who takes that activity seriously, buy him a case of wine every Christmas, because those people are rare.   But they exist, unlike the situation with chickens.

 

All of the above problems are made 10 times worse in the original post, because they are deep frying the food in pure Omega-6 oil.


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#29 TheFountain

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:20 PM

 

 

 

 

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

And one of the main things wrong with it is "vegetable spread" "ranch dressing" and "nacho cheese sauce". Guarantee that is where the majority of those omega 6 PUFA come from in his example. 

 

 

The bacon is loaded with omega-6 due to feeding the pigs with grains.

 

The eggs have some omega-6 because factory chickens are raised on grain as a primary foodsource.  

 

The toast is from bread cooked in omega-6 fats.   They do this as a "heart-healthy" alternative to using butter.

 

The peanuts are a fairly high poly-fat nut.

 

The fried chicken strips are Omega-6 from hell, since the fryer is using seed oils (all polyunsaturated, all omega-6).  Same comment applies to potatoe fries and any other fried food.

 

And the processed foods industry can claim total innocence here because the governments dietary guideline is for you to get 25% to 35% of your dietary intake from polyunsaturated fats!

 

It's my point. 

 

It's not the food, such as the Chicken or bacon, but the way it is cooked or raised. 

 

 

I agree, but:

 

1) Unlike beef, which has lots of grassfed sources, you will never find a grassfed chicken.   The fact is that chicken farmers claim to be organic but they aren't.  They put the chickens out to feed on grass and then dump big piles of grain for them to eat.   I audited every organic chicken farmer within 75 miles of my major metro area and not one chicken farmer who claimed to raise "organic pasteured" chickens passed my screening.   Every single one of them was supplementing 50% of calories or more from grain.   It's a very serious problem, and the advertising in this market is extremely misleading.

 

2) Grassfed pork is very very very hard to find.   When you finally find a person who takes that activity seriously, buy him a case of wine every Christmas, because those people are rare.   But they exist, unlike the situation with chickens.

 

All of the above problems are made 10 times worse in the original post, because they are deep frying the food in pure Omega-6 oil.

 

 

What are the sources you are deriving this information from? I cannot and will not assume that when beef says "grass fed" on the label it is infinitely correct labeling and that when chicken says "grass fed" on the label it is infinitely misleading. Sounds like a beef bias. 



#30 pone11

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Posted 20 January 2015 - 10:38 PM

 

 

 

 

 

The 180 grams of fat is just shocking.  Of course, the super high omega 6 intake is as well.  There are just so many things wrong with the standard american diet.

And one of the main things wrong with it is "vegetable spread" "ranch dressing" and "nacho cheese sauce". Guarantee that is where the majority of those omega 6 PUFA come from in his example. 

 

 

The bacon is loaded with omega-6 due to feeding the pigs with grains.

 

The eggs have some omega-6 because factory chickens are raised on grain as a primary foodsource.  

 

The toast is from bread cooked in omega-6 fats.   They do this as a "heart-healthy" alternative to using butter.

 

The peanuts are a fairly high poly-fat nut.

 

The fried chicken strips are Omega-6 from hell, since the fryer is using seed oils (all polyunsaturated, all omega-6).  Same comment applies to potatoe fries and any other fried food.

 

And the processed foods industry can claim total innocence here because the governments dietary guideline is for you to get 25% to 35% of your dietary intake from polyunsaturated fats!

 

It's my point. 

 

It's not the food, such as the Chicken or bacon, but the way it is cooked or raised. 

 

 

I agree, but:

 

1) Unlike beef, which has lots of grassfed sources, you will never find a grassfed chicken.   The fact is that chicken farmers claim to be organic but they aren't.  They put the chickens out to feed on grass and then dump big piles of grain for them to eat.   I audited every organic chicken farmer within 75 miles of my major metro area and not one chicken farmer who claimed to raise "organic pasteured" chickens passed my screening.   Every single one of them was supplementing 50% of calories or more from grain.   It's a very serious problem, and the advertising in this market is extremely misleading.

 

2) Grassfed pork is very very very hard to find.   When you finally find a person who takes that activity seriously, buy him a case of wine every Christmas, because those people are rare.   But they exist, unlike the situation with chickens.

 

All of the above problems are made 10 times worse in the original post, because they are deep frying the food in pure Omega-6 oil.

 

 

What are the sources you are deriving this information from? I cannot and will not assume that when beef says "grass fed" on the label it is infinitely correct labeling and that when chicken says "grass fed" on the label it is infinitely misleading. Sounds like a beef bias. 

 

 

I quite prefer the taste of chicken and pork to beef.   My personal bias is against beef, so your assumption is wrong.

 

Second, the request for references is strange.   Is anyone going to run a formal scientific study auditing farms?    If anyone ran that, great, but you do not need it because of the next point.

 

Third, do your own research, and here is what you will discover:

 

1) Most of the farms that claim to raise grassfed beef are putting the cows out to pasture, and they do not supplement the feed with grains.   Don't use the marketing literature.   Pick five farms and call up the farmer yourself and ask them pointed questions about this.   The main problem I have had so far is that many of the better farms with "cheap" grassfed beef only do their slaughter a few times a year, so timing becomes a problem.   I found a place out of state that slaughters a large herd year-round so that helps.    I have avoided store-bought grassfed to date only because I do not know what their quality control process is, and I don't trust marketing words like "organic".

 

2) Call up the chicken and pork farmers, and I want you to ask them these questions at minimum:

 

2a) Do you supplement the grass and insect feeds with grains?    If they say no, then ask them to list all of the foods they feed to the chicken.   I had several farmers say no to grains, only to then list commercial chicken feed products that I was able to find an ingredients list for on the manufacturer's web site where the primary contents were grains.

 

2b) Are your animals getting at least half of their calories from the supplemental grains you feed them?

 

I paid a lady to call 20+ farmers in my metro area...this was every single farmer we found advertising on an "organic" chicken list.   There was bias in the selection in FAVOR OF farmers who considered themselves to have grassfed chickens.   And what we found was that every single one of these supplemented the chickens with grain.   I expanded my search and I only found one lady in the entire nation (so far) who raises her own chickens on a grain-free diet.  It turns out that this is hard, much more expensive, and it requires extra nutritional support.   I think it is mainly about money.   A chicken farmer who wanted to develop a grassfed egg would need to charge two or three times more than the farmers who supplement grains, and ultimately no one would understand the difference in the products so there is not enough of a market.

 

My attempts to find pork farmers were less robust, but basically I went through a list of organic pork farmers and after talking to about eight farmers I found a guy in the Sierra Nevada mountains who does not supplement grains and takes the diet issue very seriously.   

 

You can ask for "references" but I don't think good references for this exist.  And I'm also perplexed why you wouldn't consider the formal audit I conducted on every organic chicken farmer in a major metro area to be a valid reference.   I think that data point has extremely high value and is objective.   You can conduct your own audit, and I don't think you will find a different result.


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