39 replies to this topic

[misterE]

 

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It's not the food, such as the Chicken or bacon, but the way it is cooked or raised. 

 

 

In Okinawa, the people there have the longest longevity ever. They eat primarily a plant-based diet based on sweet-potatoes. They do eat some pig muscle and fat. But the pigs there aren't fed grain, but rather sweet-potatoes and coconuts, so their fat is much lower in omega-6 fats than American pigs.

 

Good luck finding good quality lard. Plus even if the lard is low in omega-6, it will still contain high levels of dioxins, pesticides and heavy-metals just like most animal-fats.

Edited by misterE, 20 January 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[misterE]

 

 

 

{1} Then why is your starch diet heavy on refined starches -- pasta and white rice?

 

{2} I see absolutely no fruit

 

 

{3} The diet you proposed is horrible.

 

{4} Natural fats are good, even animal fats.

 

{5} Non-fruit digestible carbohydrates are for the most part not really that good for you, and they are not needed in the diet.

 

{6} In fact, the human body has no need for carbohydrates at all.

 

{7} The brain will run just fine on ketone bodies, as will the muscles.  Your liver will make all the glucose you need.

 

{8} High carb low fat diets are bad for you, very very bad.  They make you fat, raise triglyceride levels, and cause metabolic syndrome.

 

 

{1} Because that is the best fuel for the human body.

 

{2} Fruit is ok, but starch is superior.

 

{3} I completely disagree.

 

{4} The fats that the human body synthesizes from carbohydrates are the best.

 

{5} I disagree. Grains are the most important component of the diet.

 

{6} Well the brain and blood-cells must have glucose. If no glucose is supplied from the diet, the body will tear down muscle-mass and convert the muscle-protein into glucose to feed the brain (via a process called de novo lipogenesis). This causes muscle-wasting, and is seen commonly seen in diabetics and people of old-age.

 

{7} Ketone can somewhat replace glucose needs, but glucose is needed for optimal brain-function. People with Alzheimer's disease have reduced glucose uptake into the brain and increased brain-cell apoptosis due to a lack of insulin and IGF-1.

 

{8} Tell that to the Okinawans! 

 

 

 

Edited by misterE, 20 January 2015 - 11:28 PM.

[misterE]

 

Well, the gut flora does need some fermentable carbs for optimal composition. And the gut definitely needs butyrate, which is all but impossible to get in sufficient quantity from dietary sources alone.

Still willing to give the ultra-low fat diet the benefit of the doubt based on possible microbiome modulation, just not that particular ultra-low fat diet. And yeah, it's likely not to work for some.

 

 

 

The gut flora needs fiber and carbohydrates to ferment into those beneficial substances. Fiber and carbohydrates (resistant-starch) also assist the growth of good bacteria in the gut.
 

[misterE]

 Sounds like a beef bias. 

 

 

Beef is naturally lower in omega-6 than chickens, pigs and turkeys.

 

From what I understand beef-fat cannot get up past 5% polyunsaturated-fat because of the rumen detoxification system they have. The type of food given to them will never alter that percentage. However depending on what they eat (grain-fed or grass-fed) will determine the omega-3 to omega-6 ratio. Grain-fed beef has a very similar ratio to grass-fed beef and equal total polyunsaturation. This is more pronounced in turkeys, chicken, eggs, pigs and their fat. 

Edited by misterE, 20 January 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[misterE]

 

the body will tear down muscle-mass and convert the muscle-protein into glucose to feed the brain (via a process called de novo lipogenesis). This causes muscle-wasting, and is seen commonly seen in diabetics and people of old-age.

 

 

 

I meant to so gluconeogenesis instead of de novo lipogenesis.

Edited by misterE, 21 January 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[sensei]

 

 

 

 

{1} Then why is your starch diet heavy on refined starches -- pasta and white rice?

 

{2} I see absolutely no fruit

 

 

{3} The diet you proposed is horrible.

 

{4} Natural fats are good, even animal fats.

 

{5} Non-fruit digestible carbohydrates are for the most part not really that good for you, and they are not needed in the diet.

 

{6} In fact, the human body has no need for carbohydrates at all.

 

{7} The brain will run just fine on ketone bodies, as will the muscles.  Your liver will make all the glucose you need.

 

{8} High carb low fat diets are bad for you, very very bad.  They make you fat, raise triglyceride levels, and cause metabolic syndrome.

 

 

{1} Because that is the best fuel for the human body.

 

{2} Fruit is ok, but starch is superior.

 

{3} I completely disagree.

 

{4} The fats that the human body synthesizes from carbohydrates are the best.

 

{5} I disagree. Grains are the most important component of the diet.

 

{6} Well the brain and blood-cells must have glucose. If no glucose is supplied from the diet, the body will tear down muscle-mass and convert the muscle-protein into glucose to feed the brain (via a process called de novo lipogenesis). This causes muscle-wasting, and is seen commonly seen in diabetics and people of old-age.

 

{7} Ketone can somewhat replace glucose needs, but glucose is needed for optimal brain-function. People with Alzheimer's disease have reduced glucose uptake into the brain and increased brain-cell apoptosis due to a lack of insulin and IGF-1.

 

{8} Tell that to the Okinawans! 

 

 

The best fuel for the human body is actually fatty acids -- more commonly known as triglycerides or ketone bodies -- because they are more energy dense than carbohydrates

 

Grains are bad for you and cause inflammation -- that is a fact 

 

The body will not attack muscle mass -- gluconeogenesis does not need to catabolize the body's muscle -- that is untrue -- you are factually mistaken

 

gluconeogenesis is done with fatty acids -- http://en.wikipedia....Gluconeogenesis

 

higher levels of FFA (free fatty acids -- lead to increased GNG -- http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC407905/

 

The brain does not need glucose at all -- it will function just fine entirely on ketone bodies -- people with epilepsy refractory to medication are put on a ketogenic diet for life, 90% fat 10% protein zero carbs

 

IN fact -- switching to ketone bodies con help with brain cancer as normal brain cells can metabolize ketone bodies just fine but cancer cells can't

 

"While brain cells metabolise glucose for energy under normal physiological conditions, they can metabolise ketone bodies (acetoacetate and β−hydroxybutyrate) for energy when blood glucose levels decrease as occurs during fasting or caloric restriction (Owen et al, 1967; Clarke and Sokoloff, 1999; Greene et al, 2001,2003). In contrast to glucose, ketone bodies bypass cytoplasmic glycolysis and directly enter the TCA cycle as acetyl CoA (Sato et al, 1995; Veech et al, 2001). Gliomas and most tumour cells, however, lack this metabolic versatility and are largely dependent on glycolytic energy (Fearon et al, 1988; Mies et al, 1990; Oudard et al, 1997; Aronen et al, 2000; Roslin et al, 2003). "

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2394295/

 

I can backup my claims with actual scientific citations.

 

As far as the okinawans -- the high levels of polyphenols from the purple/red staple sweet potato could be the cause for the apparent longevity -- not the high carb diet

Edited by sensei, 21 January 2015 - 02:40 AM.

[sensei]

Of note  -- If the body is in a state of ketosis, and the only glucose is that manufactured by the liver as necessary,

 

The amount of advanced glycation end products are severely curtailed; as there is no glucose to react with proteins -- 

 

The acetyl CoA goes directly to the mitochondria 

 

perhaps this is one reason that caloric restriction has a life extending effect

Edited by sensei, 21 January 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[misterE]

 

 

 

{1} The best fuel for the human body is actually fatty acids because they are more energy dense than carbohydrates

 

 

{2} Grains are bad for you and cause inflammation -- that is a fact.

 

 

{3} The body will not attack muscle mass -- gluconeogenesis does not need to catabolize the body's muscle -- that is untrue -- you are factually mistaken

 

gluconeogenesis is done with fatty acids -- 

 

 

{4} higher levels of FFA (free fatty acids -- lead to increased GNG -- http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC407905/

 

 

{5} The brain does not need glucose at all -- it will function just fine entirely on ketone bodies -- people with epilepsy refractory to medication are put on a ketogenic diet for life, 90% fat 10% protein zero carbs

 

 

{6} I can backup my claims with actual scientific citations.

 

{7}As far as the okinawans -- the high levels of polyphenols from the purple/red staple sweet potato could be the cause for the apparent longevity -- not the high carb diet

 

 

{1} Fatty-acids are a secondary fuel source. And yes fats are much more calorie-dense than carbohydrates, that is why fat is so easy to over eat on.

 

{2} Show me a study showing that whole-grains cause inflammation. All of the studies show the opposite! Whearas low-carb diets and high meat consumption increase inflammation (probably due to the high levels of arachidonic-acid in meat).

 

{3} Sure it will. The body can make glucose from either protein or glycerol. Glycerol comes from triglycerides.

 

{4} Yep. Lipolysis, which is the breakdown of triglycerides into free-fatty-acids and glycerol, promotes gluconeogenesis. If you look at a person with diabetes, you will see that they have high rates of lipolysis and gluconeogenesis occurring. If you eat carbohydrates, you inhibit lipolysis, which decreases FFA and gluconeogenesis.

 

{5} You don't have to eat any carbs for the brain to survive because the body can make its own, however it is not healthy for the body to make that kind of adaption, usually that adaption only takes place during starvation or diabetes.

 

{6} As can I.

 

{7} What about the Asian population that eats a starch-based diet of rice who are free of diabetes until the migrate to the USA and take on our high-fat diet? Plus diabetes in Asian countries is increasing while their grain consumption is decreasing and their fat intake is increasing. This is all well documented.

[misterE]

 there is no glucose to react with proteins -- 

 

 

 

Not true. Even without eating carbohydrates, the liver will just keep making more and more glucose. And without insulin, the liver will just keep making glucose and the blood-sugar will get higher and higher. However you can break this cycle by eating carbohydrates directly, which shuts off the livers production of glucose and makes you secrete insulin, which lowers blood-sugar to the correct level.

[sensei]

 

 there is no glucose to react with proteins -- 

 

 

 

Not true. Even without eating carbohydrates, the liver will just keep making more and more glucose. And without insulin, the liver will just keep making glucose and the blood-sugar will get higher and higher. However you can break this cycle by eating carbohydrates directly, which shuts off the livers production of glucose and makes you secrete insulin, which lowers blood-sugar to the correct level.

 

 

 

Untrue -- in men on a 30 percent protein ZERO carbohydrate and  70% calories from fat diet -- total endogenous glucose production (glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis) actually decreased, although absolute gluconeogenesis increased by ~20%.

 

"Design: Ten healthy men with a mean (±SEM) body mass index (in kg/m²) of 23.0 ± 0.8 and age of 23 ± 1 y received an isoenergetic H diet (H condition; 30%, 0%, and 70% of energy from protein, carbohydrate, and fat, respectively) or a normal-protein diet (N condition; 12%, 55%, and 33% of energy from protein, carbohydrate, and fat, respectively) " ...

 

"Endogenous glucose production, ie, glucose derived from glycogenolysis and from gluconeogenesis, was lower when subjects were in the H condition than when subjects were in the N condition (181 ± 9 g/24 h compared with 226 ± 9 g/24 h;P < 0.001), whereas fractional gluconeogenesis was higher (0.95 ± 0.04 compared with 0.64 ± 0.03; P < 0.001). As a result, absolute gluconeogenesis tended to be higher when subjects were in the H condition than when subjects were in the N condition (171 ± 10 g/24 h compared with 145 ± 10 g/24 h; P = 0.06)."

 

http://ajcn.nutritio...t/90/3/519.full

 

181 grams of glucose is only 720 calories of energy -- the rest ( 1300+) comes from fatty acid metabolism

 

 

-- your diet provides 500 grams of carbohydrates, per day

Edited by sensei, 22 January 2015 - 02:22 AM.