Glad I don't use any of these brands
http://well.blogs.ny...se-supplements/
Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:03 PM
Posted 03 February 2015 - 08:35 PM
Considering the similarity of the (non herbal) ingredients in many of these store brands, most likely all were manufactured in the same facility. Looks like rice is the new cheap filler. At least it is not plastic or something more toxic.
I buy melatonin from GNC, might have to reconsider.
Posted 03 February 2015 - 10:54 PM
Considering the similarity of the (non herbal) ingredients in many of these store brands, most likely all were manufactured in the same facility.
I buy melatonin from GNC, might have to reconsider.
Yeah, it's common for the same supplier to slap different labels on the same product for different resellers/ I know some upmarket supermarkets have some of the same food products as the budget ones with different labels. So it wouldn't necessarily help to go to a different store.
Edited by nowayout, 03 February 2015 - 10:55 PM.
Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:16 PM
Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:32 PM
GNC certainly has the most to lose here. I noticed that a bottle of Target's brand said "Whole Herb" on it, so that's a problem. If all they used were DNA tests, then that doesn't mean squat when it comes to extracts. In fact, if you're dealing with something that has very little DNA in it, wouldn't whatever was there get expanded by PCR, and give you some really weird results, like "cat hair" or "house plants"?
I could see this whole debacle as a plus for the supplement industry if it encourages them to rigorously test their products and make damn sure that they are what they say they are. It could be a negative if it led to poorly-designed legislation. I wonder if big players like Swanson are planning on addressing this?
Posted 04 February 2015 - 03:21 PM
Here's an article by experts in the field that goes into depth about what Niner says:
http://www.nutraingr...lements?nocount
DNA testing is useless when it comes to measuring the amounts of an extracted compound. Unfortunately, with the way it hit the media, the damage is done in the mind of the average consumer.
Posted 04 February 2015 - 08:29 PM
On further reflection, I think this travesty is a disaster for the industry, much of which is quite responsible. I think that both the NY AG and the press that reported on such a messed up analysis have something to answer for. Will they post a retraction? Maybe they should be sued for irresponsible brand assassination.
Posted 04 February 2015 - 11:11 PM
Good points. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. The point about DNA testing "extracts" is valid in making this "headline grabber" less reliable
Posted 05 February 2015 - 08:31 AM
http://well.blogs.ny...se-supplements/
Posted 05 February 2015 - 09:29 AM
If these are supposed to be extracts one shouldn't be too surprised not to find plant DNA.
Rice flour is almost exclusively used to keep spraydryers from gunking and often as filler, too.
That they found dracaena and daisy tells us something though...
Posted 05 February 2015 - 09:43 AM
I'm not at all surprised, since a few years I've stopped buying most supplements partially for this reason. The fact that you can make so much money by defrauding customers and the chances of getting caught being next to nil puts a huge bullseye on supplements in general.
Today I buy Vit D and Vit B6 from a trustworthy supplier and also buy MitoQ and C60 but that is it. If I want garlic I'll eat garlic.
Now that DNA-test tech is rapidly becoming a commodity I expect a lot more of this stuff. We know the oil market is one big scam-ground too. Restaurants are also very good at serving cheap food and labeling it as expensive. Hopefully there will be applications that allow anyone to perform rapid DNA scans in a few years.
Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:09 PM
What’s in Those Supplements?
The New York State attorney general’s office accused four national retailers on Monday of selling dietary supplements that were fraudulent and in many cases contaminated with unlisted ingredients.
The authorities said they had run tests on popular store brands of herbal supplements at the retailers — Walmart, Walgreens, Target and GNC — which showed that roughly four out of five of the products contained none of the herbs listed on their labels. In many cases, the authorities said, the supplements contained little more than cheap fillers like rice and house plants, or substances that could be hazardous to people with food allergies.
At GNC, for example, the agency found that five out of six samples from the company’s signature “Herbal Plus” brand of supplements “were either unrecognizable or a substance other than what they claimed to be.” In pills labeled ginkgo biloba, the agency found only rice, asparagus and spruce, an ornamental plant commonly used for Christmas decorations.
At Target, the agency tested six herbal products from its popular “Up and Up” store brand of supplements. Three out of six – including ginkgo biloba, St. John’s wort and valerian root, a sleep aid – tested negative for the herbs listed on their labels. But the agency did find that the pills contained powdered rice, beans, peas and wild carrots.
Here are the products that were analyzed by the attorney general, along with the test results that were described in cease-and-desist letters that the agency sent to the four retailers.
From GNC, Herbal Plus brand:
Gingko Biloba:
St. John’s Wort
Ginseng
Garlic
Echinacea
Saw Palmetto
From Target, Up & Up brand
Gingko Biloba
St. John’s Wort
Garlic
Echinacea
Saw Palmetto
Valerian Root
From Walgreens, Finest Nutrition brand
Gingko Biloba
St. John’s Wort
Ginseng
Garlic
Echinacea
Saw Palmetto
From Walmart, Spring Valley brand
Gingko Biloba
St. John’s Wort
Ginseng
Garlic
Echinacea
Saw Palmetto
Source: http://well.blogs.ny...d=69513102&_r=1
Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:34 PM
What if your St. John's Wort is actually a mixture of garlic and someone's ground up house plant? The level of fraud in supplements obtained from otherwise reputable retailers in the US is simply staggering, says this New York Times article, discussing an investigation by the state's attorney general.
I thought that the "Mental Health" section would be the most helpful place to post this, although other sections are obviously relevant.
Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:54 PM
I often break the capsule and make a tea/infusion to get taste of the herb. Many herbs have clearly unique and strong taste: Ashwagandha extracts, Holy Basil, Ginseng, different mushrooms etc.
I agree though sometimes those big cheap bottles of random herbs you can't really be sure what plant material you're getting.
Posted 22 February 2015 - 03:01 AM
Are there brands that have been proven to be trustworthy/not do this? I'm still new to supplementation (one of the reasons I'm here) and it's overwhelming how many different brands are out there. I'm never sure who to buy from. I think I need to do research, but any help is appreciated.
Posted 22 February 2015 - 06:38 PM
From my own research, I would say that Paul Stamets and Nature's Way appear to know what they're doing. In any event, I would steer away from "store brands" such as those mentioned in the article, wherein the store is an expert in product delivery as opposed to product manufacture. For me, it really comes to down to what the manufacturers say between the lines about their own process control. It's often not too hard to spot the difference between marketing talk and real processing expertise when you do such an analysis. Obviously users' opinions are the most important factor, although it's not necessarily easy to filter the honest folks from the trolls, and even so, the causes of health benefits or problems are not necessarily clear, either.
At the end of the day, that's why we have attorneys general and high-precision liquid chromatography.
Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 February 2015 - 06:41 PM.
Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:45 AM
And these are the big companies retailing their products in big national chains. What are the odds that the online stores we buy nootropics and other supps from are legit? Who knows how many times they cut product or simply mail out stuff that contains no active compounds? I recently bought aldrafanil from one of the major online nooptropic stores and it was not legit. Their response is "we can provide you with a COA". Oh great, you can provide me with a certificate of authenticity for your fake product...
Posted 23 February 2015 - 01:12 PM
I doubt many proper supplement companies are deliberately perpetrating fraud, as it would be risky for their reputation. However, they swing the lead where they can--for example, Vitamin E supplements that are just cheap alpha tocopherol, or magnesium supplements that are mainly oxide and cellulose, with a few touches of more expensive magnesium combos to upgrade the label.
When it comes to store brands of herbs, cheapo brands, and bagged bargain pills on EBAY, or whatever, I think there is a very good chance of buying rubbish. Not because the sellers are complicit in fraud but because they are reselling crap that they do not test themselves. So the fraud is probably taking place very early in the supply chain--a poor Indian farmer, for example, cutting in waste. We saw from the horse meat scandal in Britain that the sellers neither tested the integrity of their cheap meat products nor inspected the ingredients during their earlier journeys along the supply line. They would buy stuff from wholesalers who had bought it from other wholesalers and so forth. And so many different sources were combined that tracing one mixture back became impossible--a bit like in the multiply resold junk mortgage bundling that triggered the financial crisis. The untraceability is no accident.
*
What can we do? The way I look at it is that it is unlikely one single herb contains a key to health, given the nature of evolution. So individual herbs are not as essential to us as vitamins and minerals--and we can usually find alternatives that produce a similar effect to the herb we were after. Or we will have to go without if we cannot get a reliable source of something we want.
I have been self-experimenting with herbs for years, and most of the stuff has had no noticeable effect. (That is not the only criteria for a supplement, but it is all we can go on with herbs.) I do not give up straight away, but I try a different source. I had several goes at rhodiola, for example, before I found one that worked--the other stuff may have been mainly dust for all I know. Once I find something that works, then my opinion of that brand goes up, and I try other things sold under that label. And bit by bit I narrow down which companies I think can serve me honestly.
I am still probably missing out on good things. I have given up trying to find any ginseng or gingko that works. Of course, this might be less to do with the brands than my physiology.
*
It is a sorry state of affairs that so much fraud and dissembling infests the herbal market. But that is human nature. Wherever fraud can happen, it will happen. So one has to be very persistent and attentive to find good supplemental herbs. But it can be done, and sometimes inexpensively (the best ashwagandha I have found is a cheap powdered root sold in a bag by a random bloke on EBAY).
Edited by Gerrans, 23 February 2015 - 01:48 PM.
Posted 23 February 2015 - 02:09 PM
Are there brands that have been proven to be trustworthy/not do this? I'm still new to supplementation (one of the reasons I'm here) and it's overwhelming how many different brands are out there. I'm never sure who to buy from. I think I need to do research, but any help is appreciated.
There are no short cuts. It may take years to find which products suit you. I would advise against buying herbal mixes, because even if the mix is honestly done, who is to say that all the herbs in the mix will suit you? Most herbs are adaptogenic, which means they will only do you good if you need them. For example, buying a herb that is good for eyesight will not have any effect if your eyesight is already good. And so forth.
There are plenty of trustworthy companies, as far as sourcing, quality control, etc., are concerned. But that is only a start. They may sell herbs that are in demand rather than will necessarily do anything for you. One may buy the purest bee pollen extract in the world, but if bee pollen has no effect on you, it will be a waste of money.
I think when looking for herbs, we are hoping to improve specific ailments or shortcomings--in my case these are to do with arthritis and the kidneys--and so we should focus on our particular needs. Some people just want to feel more awake, sharper, or whatever. Or to sleep better. In these cases, I would suggest working one's way through herbs that are suggested for such things. Sooner or later, something will work, and then you can rely on it after that (unless the effect wears off over time).
Brands are not everything. For example, whereas I have found that only a good brand of saw palmetto (Doctor's Best) helps with my kidney issues, I have found also that any old go-to-hell brand of nettle will help. Just a bag of crushed, dried nettles made into a tea works extremely well, if a little roughly--probably by diuresis and dilation--so no need for an expensive brand there. From this, I would say always experiment with cheap whole herbs as well as with brand-dedicated extracts. The ancient peoples who developed their traditional herbs never took branded versions at all, obviously.
Edited by Gerrans, 23 February 2015 - 02:15 PM.
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