11 replies to this topic

[resveratrol_guy]

By consuming ketone esters, it's possible to raise blood ketones well above the level achievable with medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) from coconut oil. This might enable the prevention or stabilization of Alzheimer's, especially in APOE4-positive individuals, who apparently require deeper ketosis in order to achieve the same therapeutic effect. Yet this appears to be possible (if suboptimal) in the presence of carbohydrate consumption, so a starvation diet is unnecessary to achieve substantial benefits. On account of murky reports of coconut oil being atherogenic in the presence of dietary carbohydrate, proper intake of a high quality vitamin K2 (MK4 and MK7 forms) supplement is advisable. Extra virgin olive oil, MitoQ, and carbon 60 olive oil would likely help as well.

Here is the metabolic diagram. As you can see, the idea is to avoid glucose metabolism entirely because PDH is dysfunctional in type 3 diabetes (brain diabetes, which appears to be the most common form of Alzheimer's). Granted, insulin nasal spray should relieve the PDH logjam, but at the cost of accelerated insulin resistence, so it's better just to avoid glucose metabolism entirely. Note that MCT in this diagram stands for "monocarboxylate transporter", which has nothing to do with the above definition. Why does this work? Probably because the brain evolved to detect starvation based on the presence of ketones in the blood, indicating fat burning in a nutritionally defficient environment, resulting in a preferential use of ketones for energy in order to preserve glucose for the muscles so the individual can find food.

And here is the full text. Note the coauthor, Dr. Richard Veech, who has pioneered ketone research at the National Institutes of Health.

As to commercial sources of ketone monoesters and related compounds, the market is obviously nascent. But Prototype Nutrition and T Delta S are 2 examples. Note that the former's KetoForce supplement contains massive amounts of salt, so needless to say, this is an evolving area which surely requires different products for different applications.

It's fortunate that ketogenic diets also feature prominently in aggressive cancer reversal. See the Dominic D'Agostino video in this thread for details.
 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 20 February 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[ceridwen]

but I can't get keto mono esters I have tried.`

[pone11]

To my knowledge no one has released a ketone ester commercially.   T Delta appears to be a startup company with no products released.   They are soliciting investors.  You have to be skeptical.  The other company makes KetoForce and KetoCaNa, but both of these are ketone salts not esters.

[ceridwen]

what is the difference between the salts and the esters?

[pone11]

what is the difference between the salts and the esters?

 

Definition of ester:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester

 

Chemistry details on ketone monoesters:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3810007/

 

And the ketone esters that are available today from chemistry supply shops cost a FORTUNE:

http://www.medchemex...tone-ester.html

 

I haven't found any supplement company offering a ketone ester, and the reason may be cost alone.

Edited by pone11, 26 February 2015 - 05:18 AM.

[ceridwen]

Thanks for that. Could ketonic salt be a good thing to take if I am having difficulty sticking to a strict ketonic diet?

[pone11]

Thanks for that. Could ketonic salt be a good thing to take if I am having difficulty sticking to a strict ketonic diet?

 

You have to monitor your total sodium intake.   People on ketogenic diets generally need a lot more sodium, but someone who simply did no calculations and took too many ketone salts could end up getting six or more grams of sodium and it's probably too much.

 

I'm also sceptical that you can sustain ketosis even with the salts if you are eating carbs all the time.

 

I couldn't handle ketosis.   It stressed all of my systems out completely.   I'm now on specific carbohydrate diet (SCD) and I don't eat starches or disaccharides at all.  I get all of my carbs from fruit that is mostly monosaccharides - such as blueberry and blackberry - and I also eat a ton of low-carb vegetables.   I don't eat sucrose.  I don't get any dairy or lactose.  I don't eat wheat, potato, rice, or any complex starches.    For me that diet has been fantastic.   I would not mind supplementing the diet with ketone esters if those ever become affordable and are proven to be safe.

[ceridwen]

I want to do the low carb low glycemic diet to reverse dementia. I've had to deal with lots of addiction issues. I tend to replace carbs with fat. Intermitent fasting is also recommended.

[pone11]

I want to do the low carb low glycemic diet to reverse dementia. I've had to deal with lots of addiction issues. I tend to replace carbs with fat. Intermitent fasting is also recommended.

 

For fat, I discovered by experiment and testing that dairy cream fat sends my LDL particle counts (LDL-P) through the roof, way off the high end of scale.   On NMR Lipoprofile I was getting 2300 particles.

 

If I remove all dairy fat and get most of my fat from coconut milk and animal fat, my LDL-P crashes.  I'm now mid-high LDL-P around 1600 and still falling.

 

I do low carb with lots of coconut milk, about four handfuls of berries in morning, and lots of vegetables.   You might try mixing up your macronutrients in a way that you can avoid starches, because starches are what seem to cause the raised glucose levels for long periods of time, at least in me.   I think this is a point you should study, because many people do not understand that some fruits (not all) have their sugars as monosaccharides glucose and fructose and contain almost no sucrose disaccharide.   This gives you quick and easy absorption of the sugars, and you then go back to a low glucose baseline within two hours.   With starches, you can see high blood sugars for four or more hours.   It bears directly on your objective, because better to get out of ketosis for the smallest period possible, and specific carbohydrate diet gets close to that objective.   If nothing else, SCD might be a good stepping stone to you to lower carb.  I avoid sucrose because I don't digest it completely and it seems to feed the wrong types of bacteria in my gut.

 

I believe the dementia diets I have all seen use ketogenic diet, not low carb.   And for me there was a world of difference between the two.   Ketogenic was just brutal and not sustainable and didn't feel healthy to me.

Edited by pone11, 26 February 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

pone11, I agree that ketone esters are financially untenable for the mass market, at this point, which unfortunately leaves us with the salty alternative. One potential solution to this problem is to dissolve the ketosalt in heavily mineralized (Ca(2+) and Mg(2+)) water, which would hopefully facilitate an ion exchange in favor of these more tolerable ions. Then presumably, after several minues, the ketones would float back to the surface, allowing easy consumption with minimal waste.

 

Ketosalts can definitely raise blood ketone levels to several times what is achievable with MCT oil alone, so as unpalatable as they are, it's worth some effort.

 

BTW some people think that APOE4 carriers have a harder time implementing (but unfortunately have a greater need for) a ketogenic diet. So on this basis alone, you might consider a genetic test. On the plus side, your high LDL levels suggest that you're producing enough cholesterol to maintain your brain, especially assuming that your dairy LDL was of the large kernel (less harmful) variety.

[pone11]

pone11, I agree that ketone esters are financially untenable for the mass market, at this point, which unfortunately leaves us with the salty alternative. One potential solution to this problem is to dissolve the ketosalt in heavily mineralized (Ca(2+) and Mg(2+)) water, which would hopefully facilitate an ion exchange in favor of these more tolerable ions. Then presumably, after several minues, the ketones would float back to the surface, allowing easy consumption with minimal waste.

 

Ketosalts can definitely raise blood ketone levels to several times what is achievable with MCT oil alone, so as unpalatable as they are, it's worth some effort.

 

BTW some people think that APOE4 carriers have a harder time implementing (but unfortunately have a greater need for) a ketogenic diet. So on this basis alone, you might consider a genetic test. On the plus side, your high LDL levels suggest that you're producing enough cholesterol to maintain your brain, especially assuming that your dairy LDL was of the large kernel (less harmful) variety.

 

I'm apo3 on both sides of the gene.   Ketogenesis causes me a huge amount of physiological stress.   My body has a genetic defect in MAO A gene and I cannot get rid of adrenalin easily.   So I think the ketogenic diet pushes my adrenalin very high, and then my body doesn't metabolize that away well at all.    Ketosis just destroys me.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

pone11, I agree that ketone esters are financially untenable for the mass market, at this point, which unfortunately leaves us with the salty alternative. One potential solution to this problem is to dissolve the ketosalt in heavily mineralized (Ca(2+) and Mg(2+)) water, which would hopefully facilitate an ion exchange in favor of these more tolerable ions. Then presumably, after several minues, the ketones would float back to the surface, allowing easy consumption with minimal waste.

 

Ketosalts can definitely raise blood ketone levels to several times what is achievable with MCT oil alone, so as unpalatable as they are, it's worth some effort.

 

BTW some people think that APOE4 carriers have a harder time implementing (but unfortunately have a greater need for) a ketogenic diet. So on this basis alone, you might consider a genetic test. On the plus side, your high LDL levels suggest that you're producing enough cholesterol to maintain your brain, especially assuming that your dairy LDL was of the large kernel (less harmful) variety.

 

I'm apo3 on both sides of the gene.   Ketogenesis causes me a huge amount of physiological stress.   My body has a genetic defect in MAO A gene and I cannot get rid of adrenalin easily.   So I think the ketogenic diet pushes my adrenalin very high, and then my body doesn't metabolize that away well at all.    Ketosis just destroys me.

 

 

I'm sorry to hear that. At least, you also the option of caloric restriction (or intermittant fasting, which I personally find easier). On the plus side, you're clearly educated enough that you know other ways to avoid aging damage, such as c60oo, NR, etc. And I'm pleased to hear that you're double-APOE3 (no particular expectation of early onset Alzheimer's, says Wiki).