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Vitamin D causing kidney/back/joint pain; vitamin A recommendation?

vitamin d vitamin a vitamin k calcium magnesium back pain knee pain deficiency rebuilding europe after wwii

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#1 StevesPetRat

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 11:17 PM


Was wondering if anyone else experienced this.
Background:
Spoiler

I started taking 5kIU D3 daily in Sept. '14. It helped improve energy and, after a weird initial rash, reduced allergies also. But I started developing pain in the "adrenal area" of my back, which over the course of a few months spread down the rest of the back near the spine and around to the ribcage, making my ribs very tender. I also got progressively worsening pain in the knees. I finally made the connection and discontinued D supplementation 3 weeks ago. The symptoms all gradually faded and as of 2 days ago are basically gone.

Of course there is info on this online suggesting:
1) these are "start up" symptoms that are important to power through. This doesn't seem likely since they worsened over months.
2) these indicate a deficiency of cofactors, primarily A, but also K2, Mg, and Ca. I supplement with the LEF absurdly high dose K1/2, take ~ 600 mg elemental Mg as citrate or glycinate (not to mention enough greens to get more than the RDA from diet and Epsom baths 3 - 5 days a week), and shoot for 1g Ca between diet and supplement (citrate/malate), so is A deficiency the probable culprit? I tried eating liver for a while, but it's gross and has a ton of copper. I do have a gene defect according to 23andme that impairs carotenoid conversion (and had carotenoid as a child), as well as skin conditions (excessive sebum) that might be suggestive of marginal A status.

I was thinking of cod liver oil supplementation, but is the A in that retinol or some other form? Would Nordic Naturals or Green Pasture be a better way to go?

Thanks for any recommendations, and I'd be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this. Optimal D status seems to be one of these no-brainer things, unless perhaps you're an acolyte of Dr. Marshall.
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#2 timar

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 09:34 AM

Please don't take this as on offense, but I think it is most likely that you either have experienced a placebo symptom or that you simply have connected some unspeficic symptoms which could be due to anything (more probably due to a variety of factors) to the fact that you started taking vitamin D, where no such connection exists. There have been many studies done with vitamin D supplementation, and none has ever shown side effects to a greater extend than placebo.

 

Forget about all this cofactor mumbo-jumbo. It is a good idea to take vitamin K and get a small amount of preformed vitamin A in its own right, but contrary to what all those bro-science blogs and supplement salesman claim, there is no evidence that significant interactions with vitamin D exist. If you get a good, natural dose of sunshine, your skin synthesizes large amounts of vitamin D without any concomitant increase in vitamin K or A intake - and without any adverse effects.

 


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#3 Strelok

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 04:28 PM

Here is a decent CLO that I use that has natural vitamin A in it:  http://www.naturesan...r-oil-16oz.aspx

 

 


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#4 rwac

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 06:16 PM

Did you test your serum Ca and PTH levels?

Bad reaction to supplementation can be caused by high PTH which promotes conversion of the storage form into the active form.


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#5 StevesPetRat

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 07:28 PM

Please don't take this as on offense, but I think it is most likely that you either have experienced a placebo symptom or that you simply have connected some unspeficic symptoms which could be due to anything (more probably due to a variety of factors) to the fact that you started taking vitamin D, where no such connection exists. There have been many studies done with vitamin D supplementation, and none has ever shown side effects to a greater extend than placebo.

So, despite taking upwards of 40 different supplements in that time period (most of which do seemingly nothing), it's vitamin D that gives the placebo effect? And it goes away after I stop it? And I can find hundreds of similar anecdotes?
http://www.easy-immu...-vitamin-d.html
https://www.paleohac...upplements-5842
http://www.healthboa...-vitamin-d.html
http://www.medhelp.o...IN/show/1499920
http://www.healthboa...joint-pain.html
https://www.inspire....king-vitamin-d/
http://www.longecity...n-d-joint-pain/
http://www.curezone....m.asp?i=1800833
http://forums.phoeni...y-advice.18957/
http://www.topix.com...R5VKTCM71F9PEAP
http://www.side-effe...-vitamin-d.html(pretty sure this is ripped off from another site)
 
On the other hand, I can, e.g., find dozens of sites warning of kidney stone risk for vitamin C, but no actual user reports of stones or kidney pain. So, no. But while you're here, go find me that earth-shattering cold fusion report that was supposed to be coming out by the end of the year.
 
 

Did you test your serum Ca and PTH levels?
Bad reaction to supplementation can be caused by high PTH which promotes conversion of the storage form into the active form.


Very interesting, thanks. I will check this out. Insurance coverage starts on the first of March.

Edit: Oops, meant I had carotenosis as a child in the original post. Typed it on the phone... thanks autocorrect

Edited by StevesPetRat, 25 February 2015 - 07:31 PM.

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#6 timar

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Posted 25 February 2015 - 08:04 PM

So, despite taking upwards of 40 different supplements in that time period (most of which do seemingly nothing), it's vitamin D that gives the placebo effect? And it goes away after I stop it? And I can find hundreds of similar anecdotes?
http://www.easy-immu...-vitamin-d.html
https://www.paleohac...upplements-5842
http://www.healthboa...-vitamin-d.html
http://www.medhelp.o...IN/show/1499920
http://www.healthboa...joint-pain.html
https://www.inspire....king-vitamin-d/
http://www.longecity...n-d-joint-pain/
http://www.curezone....m.asp?i=1800833
http://forums.phoeni...y-advice.18957/
http://www.topix.com...R5VKTCM71F9PEAP
http://www.side-effe...-vitamin-d.html(pretty sure this is ripped off from another site)

 

Sure. The more such annecdotal reports exist, the more likely it becomes that people experience the very (placebo) symptoms decribed in those reports. You have probably read about those alleged adverse effects of vitamin D in the past and knew about them on a subconscious level when noticing them yourself. Memes about reactions to drugs or supplements are very powerful and don't necessarily need to have any real basis.

 


Edited by timar, 25 February 2015 - 08:09 PM.

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#7 Logic

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 12:43 PM

Has it occurred to anyone that there may be a particular brand/s or batch of D out there that has some type of  toxic impurity in it, or similar issue?


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#8 cinnabar

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:35 AM

Do you know if your symptoms are from excessive calcium mobilization? Have you noticed increased plaque buildup on your teeth?

 

I have a terrible time with hypercalcemia from Vitamin D3 (from both sun exposure and supplement) until I took lots of copper. I was already taking plenty of magnesium, K2 MQ7, and Vitamin A. It took me years to figure this out.

 

A short term trial of copper is low risk, and 10mg/day is published as the tolerable upper intake level by the EU Scientific Committee on Food. I found that three to four days of copper was enough to see a big difference in my ability to tolerate Vitamin D3.

 

 


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#9 nowayout

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 02:57 PM

Do you know if your symptoms are from excessive calcium mobilization? Have you noticed increased plaque buildup on your teeth?

 

How would that work?  There is no blood supply to the exterior surface of the teeth.
 


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#10 cinnabar

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 06:37 PM

 

Do you know if your symptoms are from excessive calcium mobilization? Have you noticed increased plaque buildup on your teeth?

 

How would that work?  There is no blood supply to the exterior surface of the teeth.
 

 

 

Saliva.



#11 experimenting

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Posted 24 January 2020 - 12:25 AM

Do you know if your symptoms are from excessive calcium mobilization? Have you noticed increased plaque buildup on your teeth?

I have a terrible time with hypercalcemia from Vitamin D3 (from both sun exposure and supplement) until I took lots of copper. I was already taking plenty of magnesium, K2 MQ7, and Vitamin A. It took me years to figure this out.

A short term trial of copper is low risk, and 10mg/day is published as the tolerable upper intake level by the EU Scientific Committee on Food. I found that three to four days of copper was enough to see a big difference in my ability to tolerate Vitamin D3.


This is strange, just saw this. As many know I’m struggling to get a Vit D stack to work for me and willing to try anything.

Anyone have any follow up on this?

#12 experimenting

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 05:40 PM

Ok, this weirdly seems to work. But I’m not a fan of trying this sort of thing at all, considering how toxic copper is. I can’t find any research on a copper/d interaction either. Bizarre. Anyone got any ideas?





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